MrCanuck94

Lightning with 8 games in 13 days, lost their legs in the last 2 periods, unfortunately we couldn't convert. On to the next one.

Our team is far from stable and consistently battles with inconsistencies over the past couple seasons while the Leafs have been trending upwards and are now a contender (minus a shakey goaltending tandem lately). The Leafs started rebuilding around the same time as us and are way further ahead in their cycle. Dubas and Gilman do make many moves to maximize cap space, which is smart to do when you're constantly spending to the cap. Length of time can create an emotional bond, but it doesn't guarantee any better play on the ice. What matters is how players fit, for example Toffoli seamlessly fitting in with Petey and Higgins with Kesler. Gillis has mentioned that they used advanced analytics to figure out what type of player would fit best with Kesler and that's why they targeted Higgins. Understanding the cycle of your team + building and following a strategy + bringing in players that fit the strategy and chemistry of your team = success

Let's not forget that Olli had 2 major injuries that set him far back after he was drafted. Without those, there's a very good chance he would've been an everyday NHLer long ago. I thought he would be able to recover more of his speed over the past year but unfortunately that hasn't happened it seems. He has a good skillset and seems like a good kid, hope he can recover his speed more and get claimed or make his way back eventually.

Like JR said, our goalie covers up a lot of our problems. We have some good pieces but need to bring in more cap value and build up the prospect pipeline and increase the quality of depth. Our goal should be to build a contender, not just be "good" and make the playoffs.

Petey has literally been one of the best centers in the league since entering lol

Not saying he's a third line center, if you keep Petey, Miller and Horvat, then Bo would be the 3C and thus you're paying your third line center 6 mill (assuming that's what his next contract will be around). I wouldn't add PK to his resume yet as he's not great defensively and has recently been used more on the PK. Let's see how he does in that role.

Sorry but Horvat's consistency on the ice is not even close to par with any of those names. All those players were consistently playing dominant 2 way games and helped lead their respective teams to cups. I know Bo's skill level is lower but he's been floating more games than not and Allvin calling out the team's practice and game habits speaks volumes. Of course, it falls on the leadership group as a whole and not just one individual, but he's the captain and it starts with him. Like Allvin said, Crosby sets the standard in work ethic in Pittsburgh. Bo isn't Crosby, but there should be no excuse for not bringing the highest level of effort on a consistent basis. IMO, Horvat and Boeser are the most inconsistent players from our leadership group. Probably not smart to spend around 6 mill on your third line center in a cap world unless you luck out and manage to sign a few value top 6 wingers, which is difficult to do. Likely have to choose between spending around 8 mill on Miller or 6 mill on Horvat for the second line center spot.

For sure, and just to reiterate, I like Bo, but just trying to emotionally detach myself from the players to try and see a non-bias point of view on whether some players should be kept or not moving forward. Many cup contenders it seems over the past years have had two first line caliber centers and strong center depth in general. Like you mentioned, on a cup contender like Tampa, Bo is a 3C, so does it make sense spending 6 mill on someone like that? Or keeping someone like Miller (or another similar valued player) as 2C who may cost a couple million more? Maybe if we get a good 3C it could work out.

Last 3 seasons Bo has played at a 57 point pace and his career pace is 51 points. The play driving aspect is tough because he does rush the puck in quite a bit and can make some good quick plays that can result in goals, but I don't see him constantly creating plays or having the creative toolbox to create plays out of nothing. I'd argue against that point because centers that make their wingers better can usually be matched up with any type of winger and help them excel and reach another level of play. It's been 8 seasons into his career and we still are trying to figure out what winger can mesh with Bo not named Pearson. He's had good chemistry with Kenins, Baertschi and Pearson IMO, but I'd ask if he helped those players reach another level or did the chemistry between the players help complement each other.

Bo has had ample opportunity with top 6 players this season. IMO he's just not as good as the 1B Center many projected him to be. I see him as a solid 50-60 point complementary offensive player without the play driving ability or playmaking skills to make his wingers better. He's turning 27 this year so I'm not sure if he has 'another step' left in his development.

Elias Pettersson and JT Miller. That's the tweet.

Very homer take. No way he's worth more than Miller around the league.

Auston Matthews is worth that contract.

I believe Sat mentioned (correct me if I'm wrong) that Bo's metrics have not improved at all from his 3rd year. His production has increased with TOI. He's not a 2 way forward although he's a good 2C, but are we just aiming to be a good team or build a Stanley Cup contender? Not sure if Bo cuts it as a 2C on a contender and I don't know how much more of a ceiling Bo has. I don't think we have to look for a replacement. Miller is the perfect replacement. EP and Miller both have the ability to play PP and PK. Wingers will be easier and cheaper to find. Time for this organization to stop being okay with "good enough" and build towards being great.

All fair points, could see both teams asking for a bit more as well, but imo good base for the trades and both fill our needs well. I did have the Horvat trade in mind with Miller being signed long-term.

Fair, could hurt a bit for sure, just don't think it would be as much.. but who knows. Will be exciting to see what direction the management team takes in the near future.

If management does decide to trade him, it may be risky to wait into the offseason with the whole contractual process. I don't think his value will be hurt too much based on his pedigree.

Like I mentioned before, even if they're struggling, guys like Boeser still have value due to their pedigree. Just because they're not a fit here doesn't mean other GMs won't value them. We're up against the cap and need to find the pieces we want to move forward with and which ones we need to move to bring in younger assets.

Hard to worry about playoffs when we're struggling to even make it there. Again, I like Horvat, I really do, but I wonder if we're getting too attached to some players and it's causing us to stay in mediocrity. Seeing him be not even close to a difference maker when the team needs him is hard to not notice.

Really? Other than the 'C', what makes Bo untouchable? It's becoming more and more clear that Miller is the one we can't let go.

Just because they're not playing well doesn't mean they magically lost all their value. Teams have been scouting these players for years, they know what they're getting. Some teams may value Bo and Brock highly and some may not. Just may be time for us to move on if the fit isn't right, which is up for discussion. This team clearly needs change and more play drivers within higher $ players.

Other than his goal, I didn't think Horvat looked great either again. Really making it tough to figure out what to do moving forward.

Other than face offs, does he bring much more than Fiala? Fiala is a year younger and the last 3 seasons he's played at 0.83 PPG vs Bo's 0.69 PPG.

To MIN: Bo Horvat To VAN: Kevin Fiala To NJD: Boeser Dickenson 2nd To VAN: Holtz Zacha New forward group: Fiala Miller Garland Hog Petey Pod --- Zacha Holtz Highmore Lammi Motte Thoughts? Probably would need to add more for the NJD trade but a base of two trades that may work well for both teams involved.

imo Bo has improved but still has a long way to go defensively. Still seems to struggle reading plays at times and getting sticks in passing lanes.