44 replies to this topic

[Qris]

A while ago Wetcoaster posted an excellent rundown of why the goalie problems in Vancouver were all Burke's fault.

If someone still has it, or can give a recap again, please do. I only remember the vague gist, and I'm trying to steal my duck fan friend's hope. Burke's Bryzgalov drop can be counted as just one in a series.

[Saku_Koivu]

ok?

[dhabums]

Once Burke runs out of the young, cheap talent he inherited the wheels will start to fall off.

Perry, Kunitz & Getzlaf cost the Ducks less than $2.5M combined. Next season it will be closer to $13M. Bertuzzi at $4M won't help.

[Sens fan]

Vancouver is not a goaliegraveyard.....Burke deflected his piss poor record of goalies in Vancouver and the easiest person to deflect his garbage was the fans and then the media ran away with it. I absolutely hate it when the media goes up to Luongo and go "yeah you know vancouver being the goaliegraveyard you ready to take on the heat" WTF are they are talking about???? my donkey Vancouver is a graveyard for goalies, ohhh they booed Potvin who wouldn't? Idiots. Burke's an idiot too, he's probably counting his lucky stars he has a goalie like Giggy last year too bad this year they can't even stop a beach ball.

[Wetcoaster]

Qris, on Dec 10 2007, 12:18 PM, said:

A while ago Wetcoaster posted an excellent rundown of why the goalie problems in Vancouver were all Burke's fault.

If someone still has it, or can give a recap again, please do. I only remember the vague gist, and I'm trying to steal my duck fan friend's hope. Burke's Bryzgalov drop can be counted as just one in a series.

Is this the one to which you refer?

Burke made all sorts of moves - unfortunately the bad outweighed the good by a significant margin. Just look at the goalie sweepstakes under Burkie while ihn Vancouver.

Recall the famous "Goalie Graveyard" comment?

Goalie graveyard???? Gary "Suitcase" Smith, "King Richard" Brodeur, Kirk McLean? Pretty fair goalies who thrived in Vancouver.

Just more PR, bluff and bluster from Burke when he was unable to assess and deal for goalie talent.

Burke's inability to solve the goaltending problems alone should have been enough reason for his departure let alone his draft record.

I have titled this "The Brian Burke Wheel of Goalie Misfortune". Burke's record as great GM simply does not hold up when actually scrutinized.

One of Burke's first moves (and IMHO his first of many goaltending blunders) by failing to resign Arturs Irbe, despite Irbe recording very respectable numbers of a 2.73 GAA, and a winning record of 14-11-6 on a horrible Canucks team. Irbe signed with Carolina and would have several more solid seasons, including a trip to the Cup finals. Burke decided to go with Garth Snow instead of Irbe.

On January 17, 1999 Burke pulled the trigger on the Bure trade sending to Florida RW Pavel Bure, D Bret Hedican, D Brad Ference and a 3rd round pick (Robert Fried a 6'3" 210 lb RW who just graduated from Harvard this season) and receiving in return D Ed Jovanovski, G Kevin Weekes, LW Dave Gagner, LW Mike Brown, and a 1st round pick in 2000 (Nathan Smith).

Recall some of Burkie's BS about that deal. Kevin Weekes was hailed by Burke as "The Goalie of the Future" (Burke trademark) but Weekes would not even be "The Goalie of a Full Season" (my trademark) as Burke would trade him shortly.

During the pre-season both Weekes and Snow were hurting so the Canucks grabbed Manny Legace from Detroit on waivers but when Weekes and Snow recovered he was sent back to Detroit. Too bad Legace will never make it as an NHL goalie (more sarcasm).

The next up in the Brian Burke Vancouver goalie sweepstakes was ... Felix Potvin. Burke traded Bill Muckalt, Kevin Weekes (his "Goalie of the Future") and Dave Scatchard for G Felix Potvin, and two draft picks. "In Felix Potvin we have acquired a goaltender who I think is one of the better goaltenders in the NHL. When I first came to Vancouver, I expressed dissatisfaction with the state of affairs of our goaltenders,'' Burke said at the time of the trade. ''I repeatedly stressed that theme. We have been trying to upgrade at this position for some time, and I feel we have done that (with Felix Potvin).'' This would prove to be yet another drug-induced fantasy.

Burke's rationale for the Potvin trade was expressed as follows:
"I don't feel either one (Snow or Weekes) has done it. I'm tired of starting games down 1-0 and 2-0. I put up with it for as long as I could, I think I was patient with both of them. Now I've made a move that says 'I think we need a No. 1 goaltender.' " Well Burkie was right to some extent - instead of starting down 1-0 or 2-0 with Potvin the Canucks would often start down 3-0.

In an attempt to make the trade look better to the fans, a novel approach was tried. Snow was usually given the starts against the elite teams and Potvin was started against the lower-ranked teams. This has to be one of the more bizarre uses of a "Number One" goalie in recent years. The moved backfired as Snow stood on his head and Potvin was abysmal.

In the off-seson Garth Snow was allowed to walk for no compensation. Then Burke made probably his only good move with goalies - he signed "Back-up Bob" Essensa.

The Canucks 2000-01 home opener against the Av's proved out Burke's statement of why he got Potvin - he was tired of starting games down 1-0 or 2-0. In the Colorado game the first three shots taken by the Av's went past Potvin and the Canucks were down 3-0.

At the Christmas break Felix Potvin had a personal record of 9-12-3 while Bob Essensa was clearly outplaying him with a record of 8-2-1 but Brian Burke stood behind his anointed number one goaltender and Crawford continued to play him while Potvin was letting in soft goal after soft goal. Finally after a horrible January by Potvin ( ranked #37 in the league) Burke finally would admit "We have a crisis with our goaltending that I have not successfully resolved." Talk about stating the obvious. Los Angeles traded for Potvin sending future considerations back to Vancouver.

On February 7th, 2001 Burke traded for Dan Cloutier from the Tampa Bay Lightning sending over Adrian Aucoin and a 2nd round draft choice (yet again - it became Denis Grot). Good thing Aucoin was washed up as a D-Man.

The Canucks made the play-offs barely and were swept in four straight by the Av's. The first three games were very close as Essensa stood on his head until an injury forced him out of the series. In game four Cloutier would melt down and allow 3 goals in 38 seconds which was precursor of things to come in future play-offs for him.

Burke then made another one of his mind-numbingly bad goalie decisions. He let Bob Essensa (who had saved the last season by taking over from Potvin and put the Canucks in the play-offs the year before) go without any compensation back. His replacement was the perennial Vezina trophy candidate Martin Brodeur (OOPS sorry that was Martin BROCHU). Was Burke in yet another drug-induced fantasy when he replaced Back-up Bob with this guy????? Did Burke think he was actually getting Brodeur??? Will Marc Crawford's hair ever move in a high wind???

Brochu was god-awful (no wins, a 4.17 GAA and a .856 save percentage - you know like Dan Cloutier play-off stats ). He would be released about one month into the season and replaced with Peter Skudra. The #8 Canucks drew the #1 Red Wings and took a 2-0 series lead. Things were going fine until Clouiter fanned on the Nick Lidstrom longshot and that was all she wrote.

The next post-season down 3-1 to the injury and flu depleted Blues the Canucks came back. However when they were up 3-1 over the Wild the team played poorly and Cloutier turned in the worst stats of any starting goalie IN HISTORY in the post-season cementing his reputation that he was good in the regular season but could not produce in the post-season. Crawford had lost confidence in back-up Peter Skudra and Alex Auld was called up to play a couple of games but the Wild closed out the series winning in Game 7 in Vancouver. Burke just could not get the No.1 and back-up goalie combination that worked.

The next season Dan Cloutier, in move showing that team confidence might finally be waning, was tendered only a one-year contract and Johan Hedberg who had been to the Cup Finals with Pittsburgh was signed to back him up and push him as a starter. Unfortunately Hedberg would enter Marc Crawford’s goalie doghouse, where so many not named Cloutier have gone before. Instead of using a proven NHL goale, Crawford went with Alex Auld (who would clearly prove with Florida last season he was NOT an NHL starting goalie or even a capable backup).

Cloutier has now moved on to an all-star career in the AHL or maybe ECHL.

The Goalie Wheel of Misfortune goes round and round for Burke but it always seems to stop short of the jackpot. I think I’ll buy a vowel, Brian.

Brian Burke is a legend in his own mind and is ably supported by a couple of pet media types.

It does look like Brygalov could be yet another goalie blunder. Dress it up howsoever you want - Burke got zip for an asset. Vancouver fans have seen that movie before.

What happens if Jiggy goes down? Can Hiller actually step in??

Brygalov had to spell off Jiggy at the beginning of the postseason last year and played very well. In fact his career post season numbers are great and he elevates his play under pressure unlike some other goalies we could mention (Cloutier- cough).

Look at Brygalov's stats for post-season play:
16GP 9W 5L 1.68GAA .937Sv% 3S/O

Too bad the Canucks did not have a goalie capable of delivering those sort of numbers in the halcyon days of the WCE.

Hope this helps.

[Sens fan]

^ nice job wetcoaster thanks for the read.


I really feel that during the Minny series in 2003 all you needed was ONE game for your goalie to steal you a game like Luongo did this past playoffs and you would have won the series.

Goaltending makes the world of a difference he can instill confidence in the team when things don't go right and Cloutier could never do that.

[KryptoCanuck]

man... it was togh being a canucks fan suring those times...

does anyone have a link or a list of ALL the goalies that we went through once Captain Kirk's career started to decline? We went through somehting like a decade of revolving-door goalies....

[Hinkil]

ah the dark years, i couldn't stand to watch them consistently make bad decisions in trades and who started.

[Monty]

I like Burke, but I don't love him. But one thing I love is how most Vancouver fans, and hockey fans in general, think that being a GM is the most simple, by the numbers job there is. Did he have blunders, sure. Did he have successes, of course.

It's just funny how whenever a team has an error, or a company has some mistakes, people can only look at the areas where GMs/CEOs are having difficulties finding an answer for.

[crovax]

http://goaliesarchiv...ucks/index.html


heres a list of the the goalies weve ever had possibly a few missing

[M.W.]

Vancouver under Burke WAS a goalie graveyard. A graveyard is a place where they bring corpses and bury them. It's not a place where they kill people. Most of the goalies Burke brought in were really already dead.

Edited by M.W., 10 December 2007 - 02:50 PM.

[Qris]

Thanks so much

[sedated]

Mclean didn't really thrive. He had a good playoff run one season. He wasn't really liked before or after that by most Vancouver fans at the time. The other guys had pretty impressive strings of seasosn though.

[crovax]

not in any specific order but since mclean this is a list of goalies we have had

mclean


maxime ouellette
alex auld
martin brochu
sean burke
dan cloutier
bob essensa
johan hedberg
corey hirsch
peter skudra
garth snow
kevin weekes
arturs irbe
rob mcvicar
alfie michaud
tyler moss
mika noronen
felix potvin
corey schwab

then we got
luongo
sabourin
sanford

[blue_green_white]

sedated, on Dec 10 2007, 01:55 PM, said:

Mclean didn't really thrive. He had a good playoff run one season. He wasn't really liked before or after that by most Vancouver fans at the time. The other guys had pretty impressive strings of seasosn though.

I agree.

But whenever I say that to a Canuck fan, they look at me like I just denied the holocaust.

I LOVED Mclean growing up. He was the first hockey player I ever idolized. But I knew what kind of goalie he was. 94 was an anomaly.

[PoCoCanucks]

Because we all know how easy it is to get elite goaltending!

[M.W.]

sedated, on Dec 10 2007, 03:55 PM, said:

Mclean didn't really thrive. He had a good playoff run one season. He wasn't really liked before or after that by most Vancouver fans at the time. The other guys had pretty impressive strings of seasosn though.

NHL Second All-Star team in 1990. Played in the All-Star game in 1990 and 1992. Vezina runner up in 1992, third place in 1989. Vancouver Canucks MVP 1989-90, 1991-92. Canucks 3-stars leader 1987-88, 1989-90, 1994-95.

You're ????ing retarded.

[Error: Not Found]

Nice article wet coaster

Yeah I was suprised when Burke got rid of Essensa back in the days as well as his choosing of Kevin Weekes and Potvin...

If Burke managed goalies better we would've been a serious Cup contender in the WCE days for sure. Imagine Luongo + WCE day forwards and defencemen. Not even Luongo but a half-decent playoff goalie.

[PoCoCanucks]

Quote

Not even Luongo but a half-decent playoff goalie

Name 1 Burke could have gotten.

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PoCoCanucks, on Dec 10 2007, 06:13 PM, said:

Name 1 Burke could have gotten.

Uh, read wetcoaster's recap...

[PoCoCanucks]

Quote

Uh, read wetcoaster's recap...

All I see is a whiner who uses hindsight as evidence.

[KoreanHockeyFan]

You know when I was young like 7, it was during the Essensa era. Than the WCE really started to shine and I was like BURKE = GOD OMFG!!! Reading Wetcoaster's post now I really realize why people in CDC thinks Burke sucks.

[Gaborik_Fan#1]

We would have had to trade a Nassy, Bertuzzi, Jovo, Ohlund, or even the Sendins to get an elite goalie back then.

Look around the league now, we are one of the few teams with an elite goalie...they aren't easy to get and it would cost a superstar plus picks to get one.


The bottom line is that those guys I listed sold tickets, which this organization needed after so many years of losing money and I do think that making money with an exciting product and a team with fan favorites was more important then winning the cup during the Burke era.

[Young_Ash]

Hedberg never went to the finals with the Pens......They made it the to Eastern Finals and got killed....Some facts in that article are false.

I think Burke was a genius and did a lot for this organization, he put us back on the map and helped this team to become a winning team. He was a great marketer and brought Bertuzzi, Naslund and Morrison, which were at one point the deadlist NHL line. Burke knows what he's doing, just look at Anaheim, they won a cup.

[PoCoCanucks]

Quote

We would have had to trade a Nassy, Bertuzzi, Jovo, Ohlund, or even the Sendins to get an elite goalie back then.

Exactly.

People are using their 2007 perspective to judge events in 2000. Back then, there were few "elite" goalies, who could only be traded for in an incredibly overpriced trade.

[avner]

PoCoCanucks, on Dec 10 2007, 04:44 PM, said:

Exactly.

People are using their 2007 perspective to judge events in 2000. Back then, there were few "elite" goalies, who could only be traded for in an incredibly overpriced trade.

No one's suggesting that the team needed an elite goalie, but was Dan Cloutier seriously the best that Burke could have possibly gotten without getting raped in a trade? I don't believe that for a minute. He was one of the worst starters in the league whose deficiencies were masked by an excellent team. I don't think it's too much to expect Burke to improve the goaltending situation at some point during his six year tenure.

[PoCoCanucks]

Quote

don't believe that for a minute.

Im waiting for your armchair GM suggestions as to who the Canucks could have gotten in 2001.

[M.W.]

PoCoCanucks, on Dec 10 2007, 06:44 PM, said:

Exactly.

People are using their 2007 perspective to judge events in 2000. Back then, there were few "elite" goalies, who could only be traded for in an incredibly overpriced trade.

The Canucks didn't need an elite goalie. They needed a competent goalie. It was obvious, even at the time, that Cloutier wasn't mentally capable of being a playoff winner.

[dhabums]

PoCoCanucks, on Dec 10 2007, 04:44 PM, said:

Exactly.

People are using their 2007 perspective to judge events in 2000. Back then, there were few "elite" goalies, who could only be traded for in an incredibly overpriced trade.

If you choose to ignore that we had one of the WORST playoff goalies year after year then you'll never really get it. We needed a DIFFERENT guy who could be "barely above average". Burke did very little to make those teams better. Watch the Ducks crumble when he puts his stamp on the team.

Edit: Or what MW said, it's pretty much the same.

Edited by dhabums, 10 December 2007 - 07:40 PM.

[tomdavie]

i remember all the headlines claiming how good Potvin was after a win. Same with Cloutier.

We look at roberto luongo, and all other goalies will look like clowns.

Think we sucked for goalies? Look at Ottawa, or Philly. There are two teams that could have won the stanley cup with goaltending. Philly has been thru a circus since Hextall left, and IMHO , the senators STILL dont have a bonifide goalie.

In fact, look at 20 of the 30 teams. Look at their revolving door of goaltenders for the last 10 years too.

In fact, if the panthers had re signed luongo, I wonder what kind of conversation we would even be having now.

We are INSANELY lucky that the panthers dropped the ball on Luongo and Keenan wanted Bertuzzi.