The Official Transit Thread

[ronthecivil]

Those types of investments don't come from $30m of property taxes. They come from billions of dollars of provincial and federal funding. $30m is for operating expenses.

Most of the semi-sustainable routes are north of the Fraser because there is the density already in place to support them. The least sustainable routes are south of the Fraser. I recall reading an article a few years ago about how this one bus driver drove his route in South Surrey all day long and picked up only a handful of passengers.

There is no viable case to support those buses you want. You want a sustainable funding model, but you want to add more bus routes in the area which requires the highest subsidies?

Having a suburban model is unsustainable. Yeah you get your big yard out in the burbs with a house and no local traffic (which the people north of the Fraser don't get), and none of the people south of the Fraser have properly paid for it. They consume more resources and burn more gas getting around. I grew up south of the Fraser. We had to drive EVERYWHERE. Gas was cheap, land was cheap, so why not?

Now that gas is getting more expensive (it is still stupidly cheap and doesn't reflect it's true environmental costs), people are realizing that transit is the way to go. But the suburbanites want a $100m rapid transit station built in their neighbourhood to serve 2000 people in their 1/4 acre lots. It just doesn't work.

Geez, what if gas was $2.50/L?

I want the tax dollars generated this side of the river spent this side of the river.

If that still results in crappy bus service so be it, but I seriously doubt that would be the case. Gas taxes are a HUGE part of translink revenue and the majority of that is generated by people south of the fraser, who as you point out, have no choice but to drive everywhere.

And no, I don't expect Vancouver like service with buses every five minutes on every major routes. The Bline services they are busy canceling (again, going on ten years now) wouldn't be ideal but it would be a massive step in the right direction.

P.S. Every time I get on a bus it's three quarters to overfull....

[Opmac]

Another noteworthy piece of news is there won't be faregates installed at Metrotown Station or Main Street Station. You will be free to walk on and off the train.

"OMG! Fare evasion!"

That's what I thought too, but unless you're travelling between Metrotown Station and Main Street Station, you wouldn't be able to fare evade. If you got off at any other station, you wouldn't be able to get out of the station unless you hop over the gates.

[silverpig]

I want the tax dollars generated this side of the river spent this side of the river.

If that still results in crappy bus service so be it, but I seriously doubt that would be the case. Gas taxes are a HUGE part of translink revenue and the majority of that is generated by people south of the fraser, who as you point out, have no choice but to drive everywhere.

And no, I don't expect Vancouver like service with buses every five minutes on every major routes. The Bline services they are busy canceling (again, going on ten years now) wouldn't be ideal but it would be a massive step in the right direction.

P.S. Every time I get on a bus it's three quarters to overfull....

Really? Well the communities north of the Fraser can take the tax dollars contributed to the province and cut out everyone else. As most of the economic engine of the province runs through Vancouver, that won't leave much for the southerners. You guys have a net outflow for Translink, but likely a net inflow for other tax revenue. Do you think the economy of Surrey can really support it being the largest school district? You're not going to be able to afford the buses you DO have if you had to pay for all of the schools yourselves.

That's not the way it works. Surrey gets new schools because they have more students. UBC gets a train because the ridership and density is already there.

[ronthecivil]

Really? Well the communities north of the Fraser can take the tax dollars contributed to the province and cut out everyone else. As most of the economic engine of the province runs through Vancouver, that won't leave much for the southerners. You guys have a net outflow for Translink, but likely a net inflow for other tax revenue. Do you think the economy of Surrey can really support it being the largest school district? You're not going to be able to afford the buses you DO have if you had to pay for all of the schools yourselves.

That's not the way it works. Surrey gets new schools because they have more students. UBC gets a train because the ridership and density is already there.

So my response to a solution to not being treated unfairly be translink is to be treated unfairly by the province too. Goes to show what the planning people think of us dregs south of the river.....

[silverpig]

So my response to a solution to not being treated unfairly be translink is to be treated unfairly by the province too. Goes to show what the planning people think of us dregs south of the river.....

How would that be being treated unfairly? You don't get any of the tax revenue generated by Vancouver, and you get to keep your own.

[Common sense]

Extending the Canada Line won’t happen in our lifetime, says Richmond mayor

http://www.richmondreview.com/news/148187365.html

Richmond Mayor Malcolm Brodie doesn’t believe the Canada Line will ever be extended south, despite a design that could accommodate more track.

“In our lifetimes, you probably won’t ever see it,” said Brodie. “I don’t think we’ll ever see the Canada Line itself extended because the last section of it has only one line, not two tracks.”

Speaking at a Richmond Chamber of Commerce event Tuesday, Brodie acknowledged the Canada Line was “specifically built with the idea that it could be extended” south, but that would come with a big price tag. The Canada Line cost $2.05 billion to build—or $107.9 million per kilometre.

Could a ground-level system be built instead to extend rapid transit farther south than Saba Road? Brodie said there would be enough density in Richmond to support that—at least to Steveston Highway—but directly south of the Fraser River there’s little population to support it.

“So you’re going to have a huge expense for really very little value in terms of densities,” said Brodie.

The Canada Line opened August 2009, connecting downtown Vancouver with the airport and the Brighouse area of Richmond.

On Lulu Island, the line is elevated, travelling nearly four kilometres down No. 3 Road—the last half being a single-track guideway.

What do you guys think...does it even have a chance of making it to Steveston given its new pedestrian-friendly plans?

[Opmac]

I've always wondered how the Richmond-Brighouse Station was built to accommodate a second track. There's a building to the east of the station, doesn't seem like you can just throw another track there?

[Common sense]

I've always wondered how the Richmond-Brighouse Station was built to accommodate a second track. There's a building to the east of the station, doesn't seem like you can just throw another track there?

I think there were plans to demolish the Scotiabank building and make an actual bus loop there (instead of having it on #3 Road) but their lease isn't up yet. That's why the red light there is so awkward - it's meant for the bus bays future development

[ronthecivil]

How would that be being treated unfairly? You don't get any of the tax revenue generated by Vancouver, and you get to keep your own.

We just had a two cent a litre gas tax increase that is overwhelmingly being used to fund a skytrain extension to coquitlam. South of fraser people do most of the driving. You do the math.

[ronthecivil]

A (somewhat) funny take on the whole splitting up of metro

http://citycaucus.co...-their-own-way/

And right within the comments a good rebuttal. BTW just today it was announced that a township of Langley councillor is tabling a motion to start rounding up south of fraser mayors to see if there is interest. Sure sounds good to me and at least one other person....

It is amusing how uninformed some Vancouverites are of Valley concerns and while Daniel was clearly writing this with his tongue firmly lodged in his cheek he still appears to be writing from some mistaken belief that the Vally is dependent on the North of the Fraser and not vice-versa.

Once out of Mtro Vancouver the valley communities could reorganize to form a regional district that includes natural neighbours including Surrey, Delta, Langley and the Fraser Valley Regional District. As you may know Abbotsford and Chilliwack have been looking to integrate into the west for years but don’t want to get trapped with Translink.

Regarding Translink, the south of the Fraser massively subsidizes the North of the Fraser for transit services. Bus service could be established by returning to BC Transit, which still exists (although a Vancouverite may not recognize this). Ideally the system would combine with Abbotsford and then we could have an integrated Valley Transportation system including at grade light rail through existing rail corridors. Since BC Transit still exists the managment overhead would be far less than what is wasted with Translink.

Infrastructure would not significantly change. The water system was buiilt with combined funds and while Metro Vancouver has Vancouver in its name it actually services more than just the Metro core and already ssupplies water at a price. So the south Fraser could purchase water and/or contribute towards the maintenance of the system. This is common practice in other jurisdictions. If the deal couldn’t be made then upgrading the water supply from the east via Chilliwack and Cultus lake region would be cheaper than the drilling through the mountians approach currently being used….so another miss.

As everyone who is even vaguely aware knows, Tolling is governed by the Province so no changes in tolls would be observed…strike three?

As for the Police once again there seems to be a bit of confusion here. Delta already has its own police and Surrey and Langley are part of the Provincial contract with the RCMP. They voluntarily contribute money for joint policing most of which is used for big ticket items llike IHIT.

As for the rest of the arguments they were clearly a an attempt to be;little the idea to convince folks that the idea is not a serious one….but to think that might be a mistake….

[silverpig]

We just had a two cent a litre gas tax increase that is overwhelmingly being used to fund a skytrain extension to coquitlam. South of fraser people do most of the driving. You do the math.

The tax is being paid by Vancouver commuters too.

Richmond commuters paid for all the pre-Canada line stuff.

Port Moody paid for years while there were skytrain lines in Surrey.

This sounds like a whole lot of "waaaaaahhhhh! It's MY turn!" when everyone has been paying the same gas prices.

Guess what, property taxes in Vancouver are higher because people had to pay more for their houses there, and all these years they have been paying to subsidize underused bus routes in the more suburban areas of the region.

You want to live in the suburbs with a car and cheaper housing, yet also want the high density transit - you can't have both. And you always have the option of moving.

[ronthecivil]

The tax is being paid by Vancouver commuters too.

Richmond commuters paid for all the pre-Canada line stuff.

Port Moody paid for years while there were skytrain lines in Surrey.

This sounds like a whole lot of "waaaaaahhhhh! It's MY turn!" when everyone has been paying the same gas prices.

Guess what, property taxes in Vancouver are higher because people had to pay more for their houses there, and all these years they have been paying to subsidize underused bus routes in the more suburban areas of the region.

You want to live in the suburbs with a car and cheaper housing, yet also want the high density transit - you can't have both. And you always have the option of moving.

Then by all means the north of the river communities should be cheering our departure!

And as I have said a million times I would be more than pleased with the with express bus service (the ones that keep getting canceled). But I know I will never see even that because there's always a better business case the other side of the river.

So by all means let us wallow in the pain of going our own way!

[ronthecivil]

My transit funding proposal - killing two birds with one stone.

Throughout the lower mainland we have insane house prices and a funding crisis for transit.

Much of the blame for the housing prices is due to rampant speculation, some of it from foreign money.

So I propose to do a spin on what is done in the states some times.

If you live in the house you own, you pay regular transit property tax. If you don't, you pay triple.

Let's look at the effect.

If you are an owner and live in your house, no effect.

In you own several houses, you have no increase in your own house. On the other houses you will have a higher property tax rate. However, that will be considered a cost in your income assessment for the rental property so it will offset your provincial and federal taxes.

If you are a foreign dad who bought his kid a house to live in for school you pay triple. If you want to sign the house over to the kid that the kid pays regular. This stops the money for this operation from living overseas.

If your a speccer flipper who owns one of the many empy condos and houses sitting around the region, well, welcome to a big tax increase. Watch how nobody has sympathy for you.

Same rule applies to everyone so should meet the muster of not being discriminatory.

I suspect this funding increase would be acceptable to the vast majority of GVRD residents.

[ronthecivil]

I can't beleive anyone has commented on what could be the only poltically acceptable funding proposal for transit!

[ronthecivil]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Langley+Township+mulls+secession+from+Metro+Vancouver+over+rural+town/6588203/story.html

Differences between city and country have come to a head with threats by Langley Township to leave Metro Vancouver Regional District.

Langley Coun. Charlie Fox said Tuesday that this week’s vote to look at leaving Metro is about big city green vs. small country rural.

“I can’t ride a bike to work like you can in Vancouver,” said Fox. “My water comes from a well. In Vancouver, they turn on a tap.

“Out here you have to drive everywhere. People use two cars and a truck. Transit is non-existent and the gas tax is 17 cents a litre.”

Township council on Monday voted to take a closer look at leaving Metro and forming a new regional district. The issue will be further discussed at an upcoming meeting.

Although council’s motion is directed at the regional district, Coun. Kim Richter said Langley’s grievances also apply to decision-makers such as TransLink, which has cut plans for a bus service on Highway 1, and the provincial government, which has mandated $3 tolls on the new Port Mann Bridge.

“We’re playing fair and following the rules and we keep getting the short end of the stick,” said Richter.

“It’s the simple, pure, unadulterated arrogance about the people who live on that [Vancouver] side of the bridge. Like Marie Antoinette, they’re telling us to eat cake but they’re not even giving us bread,” she said.

Fox said Langley’s threats “can be perceived as political grandstanding or as a way of getting attention.”

“We’re fed up and we want change,” he said.

Metro Van chairman Greg Moore preached unity, cooler heads and common sense.

“Working together is better for all of us. Our deliveries of water and sewer, which are Metro’s biggest services, provide good value. A new $250 million pipeline will deliver water to Langley and Surrey, but be paid for by everyone.

“We need to work with Langley so they can understand the benefits,” he said.

Langley’s secession would require provincial approval and could trigger millions of dollars in separation costs to pay for existing pipes and infrastructure.

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/Langley+Township+mulls+secession+from+Metro+Vancouver+over+rural+town+grievances/6588203/story.html#ixzz1uOYSmPgd

Sounds like a good idea. White Rock should do the same.

Potentially a South Fraser Regional District (or if you want to be funny since north is the Metro Vancouver we can be the Hetero Vancouver since this side of the river actually HAS children instead of a need to close schools) could be organized as well.

[ronthecivil]

Finally a good story. Even if it's overblown and the results will be a drop in the bucket it's a step in the right direction.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/TransLink+finally+given+teeth+after+transit+fine+scofflaws/6581623/story.html

/story.html#ixzz1uOgqhfhg

VICTORIA — TransLink is getting tough powers to go after fare dodgers.

Proposed changes to the South Coast B.C. Transportation Authority will allow the province’s cash-strapped transit authority to collect fines, use collection agencies, refuse transit service and file certificates to the courts to gain assets of people who don’t pay fines.

Up until now, TransLink could give out tickets but had no power to enforce payment.

“People who have been stealing from transit in Metro Vancouver have been put on notice: the free ride will be over,” said transportation minister Blair Lekstrom in the legislature on Monday.

“Those that are caught without fares and ticketed will face serious consequences if they do not pay.”

Additionally, in partnership with the Insurance Corp. of B.C., drivers with outstanding fines, both past and future, will be barred from renewing their driver’s licence or registering their vehicles until the fine is paid.

“All we are saying is get out there, pay your fare ticket. Be like everybody else — live by the rules and you will have no problems. I think that is pretty reasonable,” said Lekstrom.

TransLink, which is presently grappling with a $30-million funding gap, loses an estimated $4 million a year to fare-dodgers.

Lekstrom said the recovered money will go directly to the transit authority to help offset some of this funding challenge.

The legislation would also provide TransLink with the authority to go after outstanding fines as far back as 10 years, he added.

“We are going to work on that,” he said. “We are going to put the regulatory regime in place. This will be implemented this summer and we are going to do the best we can.”

Should TransLink come up empty-handed after exhausting all the new channels, Lekstrom said there will be an option of referring the debt to the province, which could use stronger recovery methods such as accessing income-tax refunds for fine payment.

The new tougher rules were met with enthusiasm Monday in an informal Province street poll.

Surrey’s Heather Elliott was happy to hear the news.

“I think it’s an awesome thing,” said Elliott, 52. “You have to pay for the system. It’s long overdue.”

Matthew Paul, 47, of Vancouver was also supportive of the changes.

“Yes, there should be some kind of [enforceable] fine,” said Paul as he waited to catch the Canada Line.

“It’s been going on far too long,” he said of cheats ignoring their tickets.

Echo Kuo agreed.

“What’s the point of having people giving out tickets if they can’t enforce it?” said Kuo, 27, of Vancouver.

The B.C. government also made a change in the way TransLink is run, putting two elected officials on the professional, corporate-style board of directors that runs the organization but which meets behind closed doors.

The chair and vice-chair of the Mayors Council on Transportation that advises the TransLink board will now be a part of the board.

In a Monday afteroon statement TransLink CEO Ian Jarvis was “grateful” about the move.

“The region told us they want greater action on fare evasion, more accountability in our governance and an efficient operation that delivers quality service,” said Jarvis.

“We are grateful to Minister [blair] Lekstrom, who has acted expeditiously to fix legislative constraints and ensure we can respond to these concerns effectively,” he said.

Doug Kelsey, TransLink chief operating officer, also welcomed the changes.

“Fare evasion is theft and it impacts everyone,” he said in a release.

“We will begin working immediately with the province and the mayors council to develop the rules and processes to administer a fine program

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/news/TransLink+finally+given+teeth+after+transit+fine+scofflaws/6581623

[Buggernut]

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Langley+Township+mulls+secession+from+Metro+Vancouver+over+rural+town/6588203/story.html

Sounds like a good idea. White Rock should do the same.

Potentially a South Fraser Regional District (or if you want to be funny since north is the Metro Vancouver we can be the Hetero Vancouver since this side of the river actually HAS children instead of a need to close schools) could be organized as well.

If they do, then they can stop subsidizing north of Fraser transit, but drink from the Fraser River instead of the Capilano, Seymour and Coquitlam Lake reservoirs.

[ronthecivil]

If they do, then they can stop subsidizing north of Fraser transit, but drink from the Fraser River instead of the Capilano, Seymour and Coquitlam Lake reservoirs.

Sure. White Rock already makes it's own water.

[Buggernut]

Sure. White Rock already makes it's own water.

Is there a desalination plant that I don't know about? Or are they content drinking the farm runoff from the Serpentine or Little Campbell River?

[ronthecivil]

Is there a desalination plant that I don't know about? Or are they content drinking the farm runoff from the Serpentine or Little Campbell River?

As far as I know it's groundwater and there's quite the hill between those drainage basins.

Hey, what do you think of my funding proposal though?