You gave your today for our tomorrow

[old_time_hockey]

It starts before that. You can't pick the flower if the seed hasn't been planted. And you can't invoke Godwins law to justify war. Its insufferable to be so simple. I'm not saying you run around playing Chamberlain at all. It is a commonly acknowledged fact that the right thing to do usually isn't the easiest. I guess I hold out hope for the potential for mankind. To submit to war is weak. I have no quarrels with anyone that I feel need to be solved with violence. Both of my grandfathers fought in WW2 (France & Philippines) they both came home with the same viewpoint (that we had allowed the world to come to such a point) and passed it on to their families. I mean you still have people in my home country (USA) who think that evil doers hate their freedom and that's why we're at war now. They have no concept of historical American intervention in the middle east.

And before you start to think you're having a familiar old discussion, we've done this before when I went by

Humans being what they are, imperfect and impressionable, your idealistic views simply won't be realized by all. Do you really think the bulk of the German population agreed with Hilters views? Most were poor and desperate and Hitler lifted them out of poverty. But by the time the real agenda was known it was too late to stand up to him and the Nazi party. Yeah so of them drank the kool-aid and went back for seconds. But not most. Alot were too afraid to do anything but follow orders.

I agree. War is a pretty stupid way to settle a conflict unless human life is in danger. It doesn't matter how many times you send a sternly worded letter to tell someone to stop their acts if they don't want to stop. Sometimes you need to use force to stop someone. I mean how many times does the USA need to be told that they are in violation of a trade agreement and still just thumb their nose?

[LoneI2anger]

I can't believe some people. At 11, we had a moment of silence at work (toy store) and this lady actually said to my coworker, "This is wasting my time. Finish my transaction!"

LOL wtf!? hope you still didnt do it...

anyway did anyone see those 5 ghetto war planes flying around? that was a great image as they flew over where i was (At grandview parks ceremony) right at 11. was amazing!

[ahzdeen]

I think it's the ideal place. It seems there are some ageless and common delusions all over this thread. "They fought for our freedom" is one of the all-time classics.

No, they did not fight for our freedom. They fought because bankers, politicians and the rich elites of our society wanted to acquire more wealth and power. They fought because they believed in ideals that never really existed. They fought because they didn't want to go to jail. They fought because they had nothing else to do. And yes, many even fought for racial pride, a penchant for cultural dominance and from a place of deep xenophobia.

And that begat this: where today we delude ourselves into thinking that we are free. Into thinking that, even today, our 'way of life' is worth killing and dying for; that war means peace; that the bankers, politicians and rich elites still know what is best for us.

No thanks. For me, Nov. 11th is a time to recognize that nothing has really changed. It is a time to reflect that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Can anyone really say we've learned anything?

You remind me of this guy.

Anyway, not to derail this topic, I saw this show on the History channel last night. It was called Vimy Underground and it showed a holding tunnel for some of the troops before attacking Vimy Ridge. They showed some of the carvings and markings made on the walls. Some of them are amazing and they sort of gave me a greater human connection with the soldiers.

One of the carvings:

[TheSteamer]

You can't pick the flower if the seed hasn't been planted.

And we have some truly fertile ground here. I can't say I'm saddened by the responses to my posts though. To some degree, I'm encouraged. I fully expected those who profess to know what freedom is to provide the humus layer of shouted-down speech and simplistic notions of right and wrong. Those arguments defeat themselves and make my points for me. There's nothing disturbingly unsettling about such predictability.

What I'm encouraged by, is the near universal acknowledgment that our veterans were pawns in a rich man's game, that war is little more than greed through violence and that man does not want war. Now, if only those of you who seem to know this intimately, could shake the shackles of conformity and live these ideals for the other 364 days that Chelsea invokes, perhaps we could make a real difference in society?

It's a challenge, I know. It seems a tall order to expect humans to behave in a manner that is consistent with what they know deep down inside. I mean, we all know that our 'way of life' was handed to us on the backs of billions impoverished and millions murdered by our guns and bombs, but hey, if we can get a double latte at the drive through, well, we'll raise a vente to them on Remembrance Day and get back to work, right?

Or do we really care? Can we demonstrate this belief, so buried underground, in everything we do each day? Can we never take a day off and live these ideals at the checkout counter, the voting booth and on the street beside our fellow men? What a sacrifice that would be, and how we might honour those who truly gave so much!

Just think how much you would have to give up to reject the imperialism and violence that gives you what you take for granted? A day without spending? A vote with your heart?

Edited November 12, 2009 by TheSteamer

[TheSteamer]

You remind me of this guy.

And you remind me of some punk I beat down in another thread until he couldn't make a coherent argument.

[ahzdeen]

And you remind me of some punk I beat down in another thread until he couldn't make a coherent argument.

Actually, I'm still waiting for you to respond to my actual points without making a different point instead.

edit: BTW, thanks for reminding me of something to write into the e-thug thread.

Edited November 12, 2009 by ahzdeen

[TheSteamer]

edit: BTW, thanks for reminding me of something to write into the e-thug thread.

ZING!

[Buggernut]

So we should have just let the Nazis take out all the Jews in the manner they did because the threat wasn't on our soil?

So how would you suggest that the British stop the German rockets that fell on London and other towns in the UK without going to war on German soil?

At most, send them arms to fight for their own country with. But may not one drop of our troops' blood be shed for somebody else's country.

If the threat to us becomes imminent, that's another story.

[Buggernut]

Those who will not raise arms are at the mercy of those who will.

I have a problem with a democracy who promotes the concept of "pre-emptive" wars, but war and conflict will not simply go away. Not in my lifetime.

I think the best prevention against needless war is to constantly and vigilantly scrutinize our political leaders, hold them to account and make them justify all their actions.

Modern media should help to this effect. Images of caskets draped in US flags and prisoners being electro-tortured from Iraq helped to that effect, no?

[old_time_hockey]

At most, send them arms to fight for their own country with. But may not one drop of our troops' blood be shed for somebody else's country.

If the threat to us becomes imminent, that's another story.

Because that worked so well in the past arming another country. They never turned those weapons on the country that armed them have they?

Sometimes not having weapons isn't the issue. It is just sheer numbers.

[Buggernut]

Because that worked so well in the past arming another country. They never turned those weapons on the country that armed them have they?

Do at your discretion.

It's not fair to send any soldier to die for any other country that they have nothing to do with.

[Blackberries]

And we have some truly fertile ground here. I can't say I'm saddened by the responses to my posts though. To some degree, I'm encouraged. I fully expected those who profess to know what freedom is to provide the humus layer of shouted-down speech and simplistic notions of right and wrong. Those arguments defeat themselves and make my points for me. There's nothing disturbingly unsettling about such predictability.

What I'm encouraged by, is the near universal acknowledgment that our veterans were pawns in a rich man's game, that war is little more than greed through violence and that man does not want war. Now, if only those of you who seem to know this intimately, could shake the shackles of conformity and live these ideals for the other 364 days that Chelsea invokes, perhaps we could make a real difference in society?

It's a challenge, I know. It seems a tall order to expect humans to behave in a manner that is consistent with what they know deep down inside. I mean, we all know that our 'way of life' was handed to us on the backs of billions impoverished and millions murdered by our guns and bombs, but hey, if we can get a double latte at the drive through, well, we'll raise a vente to them on Remembrance Day and get back to work, right?

Or do we really care? Can we demonstrate this belief, so buried underground, in everything we do each day? Can we never take a day off and live these ideals at the checkout counter, the voting booth and on the street beside our fellow men? What a sacrifice that would be, and how we might honour those who truly gave so much!

Just think how much you would have to give up to reject the imperialism and violence that gives you what you take for granted? A day without spending? A vote with your heart?

Your words are very articulate here.

I think the people who were concerned with your posts believed that you were intentionally disrespecting our war vets.

[luineul]

I think it's the ideal place. It seems there are some ageless and common delusions all over this thread. "They fought for our freedom" is one of the all-time classics.

No, they did not fight for our freedom. They fought because bankers, politicians and the rich elites of our society wanted to acquire more wealth and power. They fought because they believed in ideals that never really existed. They fought because they didn't want to go to jail. They fought because they had nothing else to do. And yes, many even fought for racial pride, a penchant for cultural dominance and from a place of deep xenophobia.

And that begat this: where today we delude ourselves into thinking that we are free. Into thinking that, even today, our 'way of life' is worth killing and dying for; that war means peace; that the bankers, politicians and rich elites still know what is best for us.

No thanks. For me, Nov. 11th is a time to recognize that nothing has really changed. It is a time to reflect that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Can anyone really say we've learned anything?

I agree with some of what you said. I remember creating a thread a few years ago, perplexed at the entire process of Remembrance Day, and let's just say that didn't end well. What I mean to say is, I still struggle with the concept. Yes, I respect the soldiers for what they did and putting their life on the line, but in the same sense there are so many questionable things about what they were involved with.

In regards to your last point though, I don't have such a bleak outlook. I just reflect on the past on Remembrance Day - I don't make any presumptions about mankind's state right now. What's the point...

[GoaltenderInterference]

LOL wtf!? hope you still didnt do it...

anyway did anyone see those 5 ghetto war planes flying around? that was a great image as they flew over where i was (At grandview parks ceremony) right at 11. was amazing!

My coworker refused to say anything for the moment of silence, but after it was over, she told the lady that she thought it was extremely offensive because most of her family's in the military, but the stupid lady just rolled her eyes.

[LoneI2anger]

My coworker refused to say anything for the moment of silence, but after it was over, she told the lady that she thought it was extremely offensive because most of her family's in the military, but the stupid lady just rolled her eyes.

then you tell that lady to roll her rude a$s out. i absolutely can not believe that. even the scouts i took to the memorial at grandview were more respectful then that hag.

on the bright side, while i was watching news, and i noticed it too, its great that remembrance day is starting to become more engraved into our minds, especially the younger generation, and that they know what this day is all about. that way, remembrance day wont be seen as just a "day off from school" as it has been thus far.

[kanadahockey]

Do at your discretion.

It's not fair to send any soldier to die for any other country that they have nothing to do with.

Let me ask you a question - why should I care anything about you, or someone else in Canada - and not care about someone else in the world - simply because of a difference in nationality?

Why is it fair for me to have to pay taxes to support the RCMP in rural BC or rural anywhere in Canada? Why shouldn't that be at my discretion? I will only pay for those services that directly go to my living area and it is not fair for me to be asked to contribute towards parts of this country that I have nothing to do with. Its not fair to ask a RCMP officer to go somewhere in Canada for a risky job when they have nothing to do with that area of Canada.

Look, I hate the glorification of war and I think many, many wars could have been avoided if both politicians and the general populace were a little bit less stupid. But under your doctrine, there is no such thing as human rights or civil rights that are deserving of state protection.

If we as a society believe that within Canada, there are those individual, human rights, worth using the power of the state to combat through the use of violence (i.e. the Criminal Code and the Police) then in theory that should apply globally. Whether a specific incident warrants the use of interventionist force would be a separate argument.

Economic sanctions are considered acts of war. How many people believe that sanctions against the apartheid regime in South Africa were wrong? If individual people or companies wanted to refuse to trade with South Africa they could do so "at their own discretion". However, it is not fair for the Canadian government to use the power of the law to force that.

[Buggernut]

Let me ask you a question - why should I care anything about you, or someone else in Canada - and not care about someone else in the world - simply because of a difference in nationality?

Would you sacrifice your life for me?

Why is it fair for me to have to pay taxes to support the RCMP in rural BC or rural anywhere in Canada? Why shouldn't that be at my discretion? I will only pay for those services that directly go to my living area and it is not fair for me to be asked to contribute towards parts of this country that I have nothing to do with. Its not fair to ask a RCMP officer to go somewhere in Canada for a risky job when they have nothing to do with that area of Canada.

The cop gets paid. He has to accept the risks that come with his job.

Now what favours are returned for fighting and risking life and limb for another country? They better be pretty damn big!

Economic sanctions are considered acts of war. How many people believe that sanctions against the apartheid regime in South Africa were wrong? If individual people or companies wanted to refuse to trade with South Africa they could do so "at their own discretion". However, it is not fair for the Canadian government to use the power of the law to force that.

I guess it's also not fair to use the power of law to stop me from buying the stereo that was ripped out of your car then. There's also the matter of buying made in China, and the moral inconsistency posed by it, but that's another long debate.

Refusing to do business with someone or some other country can hardly be considered "war". Good fences make good neighbours.

[kanadahockey]

Would you sacrifice your life for me?

The cop gets paid. He has to accept the risks that come with his job.

Now what favours are returned for fighting and risking life and limb for another country? They better be pretty damn big!

I guess it's also not fair to use the power of law to stop me from buying the stereo that was ripped out of your car then. There's also the matter of buying made in China, and the moral inconsistency posed by it, but that's another long debate.

Refusing to do business with someone or some other country can hardly be considered "war". Good fences make good neighbours.

My real point is, why should a Canadian be within my fence - and, for example, someone from Rwanda be outside my fence?

I don't get where there is any moral obligation to protect a Canadian - when it is improper to protect someone from Rwanda.

If your argument, which it appears to be, is that it is wrong to involve oneself in any foreign militaristic intervention other than pure and immediate self-defence then yes, I believe it is equally wrong to use the law to involve oneself domestically to stop you from buying (or even stealing) my property. If I can personally stop you, bully on me. Just like if the Rwandan civilian could have stopped the organized genocide, bully on them. If I can't, tough luck.

If there are human and civil rights, they are inherent to every person and deserving of protection. If someone's human and civil rights are not deserving of protection, then I want the right not to have to pay taxes to protect other people within Canada if I so choose. If you get to choose people outside of Canada you don't want to protect, I want the right to choose people in Canada I don't want to protect.

Now, I actually am not a libertarian - I don't believe in this. And therefore I believe in the possibility of interventionist humanitarian action. I believe we should have acted to stop the Rwandan genocide and I believe we should act in the future to stop genocide. Now, the devil is in the details as to when it is appropriate to act - but public policy decisions are difficult.

Saying "all war is bad" is simplistic and dangerous. And leads to the death of 1,000,000 black people in Africa.

Question war. Just like we have to question every police shooting and every interventionist action by the state taken internally within Canada.

But sometimes police have to shoot someone to protect hostages - and sometimes it might be necessary to bomb somebody to protect inherent human rights.

Hopefully someday neither the Army nor the Police will be needed.

[Buggernut]

My real point is, why should a Canadian be within my fence - and, for example, someone from Rwanda be outside my fence?

I don't get where there is any moral obligation to protect a Canadian - when it is improper to protect someone from Rwanda.

If your argument, which it appears to be, is that it is wrong to involve oneself in any foreign militaristic intervention other than pure and immediate self-defence then yes, I believe it is equally wrong to use the law to involve oneself domestically to stop you from buying (or even stealing) my property. If I can personally stop you, bully on me. Just like if the Rwandan civilian could have stopped the organized genocide, bully on them. If I can't, tough luck.

If there are human and civil rights, they are inherent to every person and deserving of protection. If someone's human and civil rights are not deserving of protection, then I want the right not to have to pay taxes to protect other people within Canada if I so choose. If you get to choose people outside of Canada you don't want to protect, I want the right to choose people in Canada I don't want to protect.

But those foreigners don't pay into the same pool of taxes. We have no obligation to spread our benefits to them--certainly not with our lives at that.

Nobody's asking you to put your life on the line to protect your fellow Canadian citizen either. Unless of course, it's part of your job description and you get paid for it.

[luineul]

But those foreigners don't pay into the same pool of taxes. We have no obligation to spread our benefits to them--certainly not with our lives at that.

Nobody's asking you to put your life on the line to protect your fellow Canadian citizen either. Unless of course, it's part of your job description and you get paid for it.

I think you two are debating different points. Buggernut appears to be talking about Canadian soldiers, while Kanadahockey seems to be speaking as a moral human being. In this case, think Venn diagram. Human would be in the middle. Canadian and Rwandan would be on opposite sides.