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Starbug

You gave your today for our tomorrow

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But those foreigners don't pay into the same pool of taxes. We have no obligation to spread our benefits to them--certainly not with our lives at that.

Nobody's asking you to put your life on the line to protect your fellow Canadian citizen either. Unless of course, it's part of your job description and you get paid for it.

I think you two are debating different points. Buggernut appears to be talking about Canadian soldiers, while Kanadahockey seems to be speaking as a moral human being. In this case, think Venn diagram. Human would be in the middle. Canadian and Rwandan would be on opposite sides.

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But those foreigners don't pay into the same pool of taxes. We have no obligation to spread our benefits to them--certainly not with our lives at that.

Nobody's asking you to put your life on the line to protect your fellow Canadian citizen either. Unless of course, it's part of your job description and you get paid for it.

How on earth can "paying taxes" be the moral justification for whether or not we defend human and civil rights? There are an awful lot of Canadians who pay no tax.

And when you use "we have no obligation" - why do I have to be part of your "we"? Why does someone in the middle of nowhere rural Canada have to be part of my "we" that I have to subsidize?

edit: I would add, to address the point above, that I don't believe in a mandatory draft. I believe in maintaining a professional army. People who have a job description and are paid to undertake that job description.

Edited by kanadahockey
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Seeing that thread asking where to get a poppy led me to ask myself "where's our remembrance day thread?" and I remember I enjoyed the pics in this one :)

Edited by Upshall18
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I was fortunate enough to be in Ottawa 2 weeks ago and got the chance to visit a solider cemetery. (I don't know if that's what they're called.. it was just a cemetery with mostly people who served in the Wars- I'm brain dead).

It was pretty cool. Thank you to everyone who served this country and gave us freedom.

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To think that the "Great War" started almost 100 years ago. All the WW1 veterans has passed away, and soon, all the WW2 ones will too. The Greatest Generation.

Someday, I would like to visit Vimy, the beaches of Normandy and other war sites to pay my respect to those who fell there.

I get shivers just watching the documentaries and seeing the pictures. Can't imagine what I'll be like when I do go there in person.

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I think you guys can help me understand some things about your country I haven't figured out yet. First of all, every soldier who died in the world wars (or any war) is one too many. What the allies did in the second world war had to happen, because it was the only way to stop the murdering. As Germans, we remain thankful that the USA, Canada, Great Britain and France helped us and gave us a fair chance of rebuilding everything that was destroyed in those evil 12 years.

Before I make my point, let me explain to you another thing: Ever since that time, most European countries have become overwhelmingly anti-military overall. You barely see young soldiers in uniform on the streets, well, pretty much because they are "ashamed" to wear them in public (and because of some people insulting them for what they seem to represent). Our public doesn't seem to care too much when we lose soldiers in Afghanistan and other places, it's more like "well, it's their job, their job is dangerous, so it's their fault. We shouldn't be there anyways." I'd say that this is similar in many other European countries.

So, what I'd like to know is this: With all the ceremonies before hockey games, honoring dead soldiers in "Coach's corner", etc., does that mean that you have a big support for the war in Afghanistan and military action in general? I still haven't decided, whether it is some form of militarism (if I may use that term), simple patriotism (which is not a bad thing), or just the thought of "oh, what a needless war, but let's hope they all come back." I want to understand this aspect of Canadian (or shall I say American?) culture, because it just seems so strange to me (us). Our "never again" has made us enemies of our own troops, somehow.

And just to clarify: As much as I am a pacifist, I do understand that we sometimes have to defend ourselves against violence, but this is to me the only possible reason why one has to go to war...

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To think that the "Great War" started almost 100 years ago. All the WW1 veterans has passed away, and soon, all the WW2 ones will too. The Greatest Generation.

Someday, I would like to visit Vimy, the beaches of Normandy and other war sites to pay my respect to those who fell there.

I get shivers just watching the documentaries and seeing the pictures. Can't imagine what I'll be like when I do go there in person.

They called it "The war to end all wars".

How wrong they were.... :sadno:

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I think you guys can help me understand some things about your country I haven't figured out yet. First of all, every soldier who died in the world wars (or any war) is one too many. What the allies did in the second world war had to happen, because it was the only way to stop the murdering. As Germans, we remain thankful that the USA, Canada, Great Britain and France helped us and gave us a fair chance of rebuilding everything that was destroyed in those evil 12 years.

Before I make my point, let me explain to you another thing: Ever since that time, most European countries have become overwhelmingly anti-military overall. You barely see young soldiers in uniform on the streets, well, pretty much because they are "ashamed" to wear them in public (and because of some people insulting them for what they seem to represent). Our public doesn't seem to care too much when we lose soldiers in Afghanistan and other places, it's more like "well, it's their job, their job is dangerous, so it's their fault. We shouldn't be there anyways." I'd say that this is similar in many other European countries.

So, what I'd like to know is this: With all the ceremonies before hockey games, honoring dead soldiers in "Coach's corner", etc., does that mean that you have a big support for the war in Afghanistan and military action in general? I still haven't decided, whether it is some form of militarism (if I may use that term), simple patriotism (which is not a bad thing), or just the thought of "oh, what a needless war, but let's hope they all come back." I want to understand this aspect of Canadian (or shall I say American?) culture, because it just seems so strange to me (us). Our "never again" has made us enemies of our own troops, somehow.

And just to clarify: As much as I am a pacifist, I do understand that we sometimes have to defend ourselves against violence, but this is to me the only possible reason why one has to go to war...

As Canadians we like to consider ourselves "peacekeepers" more than a military nation. We therefore tend to "pick our battles" more carefully than say, our American or British cousins. We said "no" to Iraq, but "yes" to Afghanistan and Rwanda because we genuinely thought that our intervention was warranted.

Because of this, I feel there is a genuine sense of pride for many Canadians when it comes to our military. We are still looked at with tremendous respect in many European nations like France and Holland because of our efforts in WWII.

With Americans, militarism is such a part of their history, (eg: The Star Spangled Banner) that I think they are conditioned to see anyone in uniform with respect. There was a brief period where this wasn't the case, (Vietnam) however, the 9/11 attacks as well as other "terrorist" incidents have restored the public image of the American soldier. (At least in the U.S.A ;) )

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Seeing that thread asking where to get a poppy led me to ask myself "where's our remembrance day thread?" and I remember I enjoyed the pics in this one :)

*checks to make sure all photo links are up to date*

[]

So, what I'd like to know is this: With all the ceremonies before hockey games, honoring dead soldiers in "Coach's corner", etc., does that mean that you have a big support for the war in Afghanistan and military action in general?

[]

Many people I know differentiate between supporting our troops and supporting the war; there's a difference between a person choosing to fight for their country and a government deciding on where to send the troops. There are many people who don't necessarily support the war in Afghanistan (or Iraq, in the case of the US), but still have tremendous support for the sacrifice a person makes when they enlist. I might not agree with all (or any :P) decisions the government makes, but I very much support anyone who chooses the military as a career.

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Thanks for these two answers smile.gif . "Peacekeeping" is a concept I agree with, but in the case of Afghanistan, I don't see anything that can be achieved by our presence there. It just sickens me that our young men (and I mean young men of all nations who fight down there) die, while at the same time the Taliban are still capable of poisoning girls' schools. The government is corrupt, there is no more chance of success (whatever that would be, by the way), and yet our people have to die there.

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Just a couple of the pics I took in France that I was reminded of for Remembrance day.

393.jpg

378.jpg

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As Canadians we like to consider ourselves "peacekeepers" more than a military nation. We therefore tend to "pick our battles" more carefully than say, our American or British cousins. We said "no" to Iraq, but "yes" to Afghanistan and Rwanda because we genuinely thought that our intervention was warranted.

Do you really believe that?

Read this book, and you'll find out how genuine efforts to help Rwanda were:

Book_-_Romeo_Dallaire_-_Shake_Hands_With_The_Devil.jpg

As for Afghanistan, why do you think we went there in the first place? To catch a single man? The invasion of Afghanistan actually has to do more with Argentina than with Osama.

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Starbug - I'm not sure if it was intentional, but the tombstone you have on the original post is that of an unknown soldier of the 72nd Battalion. The actual name of the Regiment is the Seaforth Highlanders of Canada, and they are based here in Vancouver. This Regiment has contributed men to each and every conflict since WW1 and continues to today with upwards of 100 of the currently serving men being Afghan vets.

Well done.

Lest we forget.

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I think you guys can help me understand some things about your country I haven't figured out yet. First of all, every soldier who died in the world wars (or any war) is one too many. What the allies did in the second world war had to happen, because it was the only way to stop the murdering. As Germans, we remain thankful that the USA, Canada, Great Britain and France helped us and gave us a fair chance of rebuilding everything that was destroyed in those evil 12 years.

Before I make my point, let me explain to you another thing: Ever since that time, most European countries have become overwhelmingly anti-military overall. You barely see young soldiers in uniform on the streets, well, pretty much because they are "ashamed" to wear them in public (and because of some people insulting them for what they seem to represent). Our public doesn't seem to care too much when we lose soldiers in Afghanistan and other places, it's more like "well, it's their job, their job is dangerous, so it's their fault. We shouldn't be there anyways." I'd say that this is similar in many other European countries.

So, what I'd like to know is this: With all the ceremonies before hockey games, honoring dead soldiers in "Coach's corner", etc., does that mean that you have a big support for the war in Afghanistan and military action in general? I still haven't decided, whether it is some form of militarism (if I may use that term), simple patriotism (which is not a bad thing), or just the thought of "oh, what a needless war, but let's hope they all come back." I want to understand this aspect of Canadian (or shall I say American?) culture, because it just seems so strange to me (us). Our "never again" has made us enemies of our own troops, somehow.

And just to clarify: As much as I am a pacifist, I do understand that we sometimes have to defend ourselves against violence, but this is to me the only possible reason why one has to go to war...

My opinion is this, although i do not support the war in Afghanistan i do support each and everyone of our canadian troops. The reason i support them is because they have the courage to fight for something they belive or in some cases do not belive in. A courage i think i will never truly understand and one that i am ashamed to say i think i will never experience. If our country and people are ever in need of protection these are the same group of people that will be here defending us in our time of need.

On a side note my grandfather was a member of the South Saskatchewan Regiment. He was wounded in action in Dieppe if i remember correctly and sent home. He then went on to have a son in 1947 who is my father. In 1953 my grandfather committed suicide by throwing himself in the path of an oncoming train. My father was five years old at the time of his death and never had the chance to get to know his father. He still gets upset when ever he trys to talk about him to this day. Feeling sometimes of anger i think that stem from having the feeling he left my father without one of his own. The belief is that my grandfather could not overcome the horrors he had witnessed in his days as a soldier in WW2 so he took his life in his own hands. I admire him although i know almost nothing about him. What i do know is he shared the same courage as our soldiers deployed today in Afghanistan and for that he will always have my admiration. In my mind he is a hero i never knew. I could not imagine the things that would go through your mind witnessing the things he had. My grandmother had always told my father that his father had witness some of his best friends die next to him as a way to maybe help my father understand why his father had left him the way he did.....

I actually have all my grandfathers paybooks, maps, birth certificate, and military service records. My father gave them to me along with the only picture he had of his father for my 25th birthday, the greatest gift i have ever recieved. My father still seems to have questions as to why he left him and his family the way he did and maybe even a little anger. Questions he will never know the answer.

End of story...

Lest we forget....

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Does anyone else get upset when Nov 12 rolls around and the poppies disappear

I always wear mine well after Nov 11

Like I always say they should be remembered as often as possible

Not just one day of the year

but its nice there is the one day for EVERYONE to remember

RIP

<3

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I will answer in English, because everyone here should have a chance of understanding what we discuss here... I am not FOR the war in Afghanistan, definitely not. The whole thing was just meant to show the U.S. that we are on their side after 9/11 and has turned into another Vietnam. But: Should we not hope the best for our soldiers that they come back safe and healthy from their dangerous task? I do not wish them failure. (On a side note, I was absolutely against the war in Iraq and went on the street to protest against it. I myself did not go to the Bundeswehr, because I did not want to be involved in violent conflicts and deadly weapons and stuff. But you know, there are other things an army can do for your country. Remember how they helped the people, when some parts of our country were devastated by floods and heavy rainfall?)

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you don't need to wear poppies to be appreciative of the sacrifices of canadian soldiers ... a lot of the people who wear them are doing it just for show ... it's the same thing with the americans and their "lapel pins" supposedly symbolizing "patriotism" ...

I agree, I know more about the two wars than anyone I know and I rarely wear a poppy. I appreciate the meaning, but I don't feel I need one.

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I agree, I know more about the two wars than anyone I know and I rarely wear a poppy. I appreciate the meaning, but I don't feel I need one.

i have two points

1) i agree that you don't have to wear a poppy, but remember how proud a vet must feel when they see us wearing poppies to show our respect.

2)i am a VERY proud Canadian, but do not forget the many soldiers who fought against the allies. For example, the many german youth (14/15 years old) who were forced into war during the end of world war 2. Lest We Forget

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Many people I know differentiate between supporting our troops and supporting the war; there's a difference between a person choosing to fight for their country and a government deciding on where to send the troops. There are many people who don't necessarily support the war in Afghanistan (or Iraq, in the case of the US), but still have tremendous support for the sacrifice a person makes when they enlist. I might not agree with all (or any :P) decisions the government makes, but I very much support anyone who chooses the military as a career.

Well put.

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