GoaltenderInterference Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I can't believe some people. At 11, we had a moment of silence at work (toy store) and this lady actually said to my coworker, "This is wasting my time. Finish my transaction!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteamer Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 While I don't like agent provocateurs either, this is hardly the right thread for that debate. I think it's the ideal place. It seems there are some ageless and common delusions all over this thread. "They fought for our freedom" is one of the all-time classics. No, they did not fight for our freedom. They fought because bankers, politicians and the rich elites of our society wanted to acquire more wealth and power. They fought because they believed in ideals that never really existed. They fought because they didn't want to go to jail. They fought because they had nothing else to do. And yes, many even fought for racial pride, a penchant for cultural dominance and from a place of deep xenophobia. And that begat this: where today we delude ourselves into thinking that we are free. Into thinking that, even today, our 'way of life' is worth killing and dying for; that war means peace; that the bankers, politicians and rich elites still know what is best for us. No thanks. For me, Nov. 11th is a time to recognize that nothing has really changed. It is a time to reflect that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Can anyone really say we've learned anything? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChelseaFC Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think it's the ideal place. It seems there are some ageless and common delusions all over this thread. "They fought for our freedom" is one of the all-time classics. No, they did not fight for our freedom. They fought because bankers, politicians and the rich elites of our society wanted to acquire more wealth and power. They fought because they believed in ideals that never really existed. They fought because they didn't want to go to jail. They fought because they had nothing else to do. And yes, many even fought for racial pride, a penchant for cultural dominance and from a place of deep xenophobia. And that begat this: where today we delude ourselves into thinking that we are free. Into thinking that, even today, our 'way of life' is worth killing and dying for; that war means peace; that the bankers, politicians and rich elites still know what is best for us. No thanks. For me, Nov. 11th is a time to recognize that nothing has really changed. It is a time to reflect that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Can anyone really say we've learned anything? Being respectful here, have you actually talk to veterans about this? or you just assuming? At the end of the day, I've always justified and supported our veterans and troops fighting overseas as a reasoning to defend theirs and ours well being in livelihood. I agree with you to a certain extent that alot of our veterans were sent overseas to fight without actually grasping onto the reasoning of why they were sent overseas to fight in a war that had little or no relevance to their own lives. Then when we think of the Liberation of Holland, D-Day landings of Normandy, or the Battle of Hong Kong for example, it has to count for something that our surviving and fallen veterans tried or accomplished a fighting objective on trying to end an aggression or oppression that was enforced on people. Would it not send into one's mind that the oppression and aggression could be imposed upon my livelihood as well? I truly do believe that although the sacrifices made by our veterans was so great that nothing could ever be given back to them to erase the horrors they encountered in war, there is still a feel good moment in each and every corner of a veteran's heart that they did make a difference of good for their part on contributing to war. Lets be clear, war is Hell, soldiers are the instruments of warfare, at the same time, we fight in wars because it is the last means of settling differences and to defend the well being of livelihood. Yes, it is a common cliche that our veterans fought for our freedom, at the same time, there is still a greater good that they fought for. Steamer, you can go on about how our veterans were to sent to fight because bankers, politicians and the rich elites for example wanted our society to acquire more wealth and power, but is it not because of acquiring more of this wealth and power that can help shape our society to be an ideal place to live in? If that is the case, I stand attention one more time here on November 11th, saluting our veterans for their sacrifice to fight so that I' am living in a Canadian society that is freed from foreign oppression and aggression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackberries Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think it's the ideal place. It seems there are some ageless and common delusions all over this thread. "They fought for our freedom" is one of the all-time classics. No, they did not fight for our freedom. They fought because bankers, politicians and the rich elites of our society wanted to acquire more wealth and power. They fought because they believed in ideals that never really existed. They fought because they didn't want to go to jail. They fought because they had nothing else to do. And yes, many even fought for racial pride, a penchant for cultural dominance and from a place of deep xenophobia. And that begat this: where today we delude ourselves into thinking that we are free. Into thinking that, even today, our 'way of life' is worth killing and dying for; that war means peace; that the bankers, politicians and rich elites still know what is best for us. No thanks. For me, Nov. 11th is a time to recognize that nothing has really changed. It is a time to reflect that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Can anyone really say we've learned anything? Though you make some points I do agree with, your pissing all over the memories of people that gave their lives believing what they were doing was right. Why do you have to disrespect that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackberries Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I can't believe some people. At 11, we had a moment of silence at work (toy store) and this lady actually said to my coworker, "This is wasting my time. Finish my transaction!" Wow.. someone should have decked her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buggernut Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Being respectful here, have you actually talk to veterans about this? or you just assuming? At the end of the day, I've always justified and supported our veterans and troops fighting overseas as a reasoning to defend theirs and ours well being in livelihood. I agree with you to a certain extent that alot of our veterans were sent overseas to fight without actually grasping onto the reasoning of why they were sent overseas to fight in a war that had little or no relevance to their own lives. Then when we think of the Liberation of Holland, D-Day landings of Normandy, or the Battle of Hong Kong for example, it has to count for something that our surviving and fallen veterans tried or accomplished a fighting objective on trying to end an aggression or oppression that was enforced on people. Would it not send into one's mind that the oppression and aggression could be imposed upon my livelihood as well? I truly do believe that although the sacrifices made by our veterans was so great that nothing could ever be given back to them to erase the horrors they encountered in war, there is still a feel good moment in each and every corner of a veteran's heart that they did make a difference of good for their part on contributing to war. Lets be clear, war is Hell, soldiers are the instruments of warfare, at the same time, we fight in wars because it is the last means of settling differences and to defend the well being of livelihood. Yes, it is a common cliche that our veterans fought for our freedom, at the same time, there is still a greater good that they fought for. Steamer, you can go on about how our veterans were to sent to fight because bankers, politicians and the rich elites for example wanted our society to acquire more wealth and power, but is it not because of acquiring more of this wealth and power that can help shape our society to be an ideal place to live in? If that is the case, I stand attention one more time here on November 11th, saluting our veterans for their sacrifice to fight so that I' am living in a Canadian society that is freed from foreign oppression and aggression. Whoa whoa whoa! Which is it? The latter implies defense, whereas the former implies imperialism plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pimpcurtly Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Though you make some points I do agree with, your pissing all over the memories of people that gave their lives believing what they were doing was right. Why do you have to disrespect that. I agree. Shut up already, Steamer. This thread is to honor our soldiers(fathers, grandfathers etc) who fought and died. Not question/debate the motives behind war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buggernut Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I think it's the ideal place. It seems there are some ageless and common delusions all over this thread. "They fought for our freedom" is one of the all-time classics. No, they did not fight for our freedom. They fought because bankers, politicians and the rich elites of our society wanted to acquire more wealth and power. They fought because they believed in ideals that never really existed. They fought because they didn't want to go to jail. They fought because they had nothing else to do. And yes, many even fought for racial pride, a penchant for cultural dominance and from a place of deep xenophobia. Do the Nazi regime and concentration camps have anything to do with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChelseaFC Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 (edited) Whoa whoa whoa! Which is it? The latter implies defense, whereas the former implies imperialism plain and simple. Yeah, thats right. The former implies imperialism. Whether you agree with imperialism or not, are you going to argue that imperialism hold no value as a positive contribution to some society? Imperialism was one of the many factors of cause for the Great Wars that occurred. It is also through imperialism that has contributed on shaping some societies to be so great, that people who are part of such societies to identify that any threats of oppression and aggression on such society is worth fighting back to defend the well being of its society. You can go on and on about how the Great Wars is an example of a dark chapter in imperialism, but you have to keep in mind that there was a time when people identified their well being of livelihood to the strength and beliefs of their respective nations empires. The threat of ones empire was a threat to the people and society. Lets be clear on the second issue, Canada was a part of the British Empire, there is no denying that (as much as some of you wish that such truth did not exist). Btw, Steamer, Buggernut, and whoever else wants to continue this discussion with me, please send me a pm. I almost feel ashame for taking this thread off course as the intended purpose of this thread was to remember our veterans. Edited November 12, 2009 by ChelseaFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliforniaFire Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I have a friend who doesn't necessarily support the troops mainly because I believe one of her celebrities isn't a huge fan of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buggernut Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Yeah, thats right. The former implies imperialism. Whether you agree with imperialism or not, are you going to argue that imperialism hold no value as a positive contribution to some society? Imperialism was one of the many factors of cause for the Great Wars that occurred. It is also through imperialism that has contributed on shaping some societies to be so great, that people who are part of such societies to identify that any threats of oppression and aggression on such society is worth fighting back to defend the well being of its society. You can go on and on about how the Great Wars is an example of a dark chapter in imperialism, but you have to keep in mind that there was a time when people identified their well being of livelihood to the strength and beliefs of their respective nations empires. The threat of ones empire was a threat to the people and society. Lets be clear on the second issue, Canada was a part of the British Empire, there is no denying that (as much as some of you wish that such truth did not exist). And we're damn glad we broke away from it. The lines have been drawn in the sand in the form of national boundaries. Let's just guard our own territory instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChelseaFC Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I agree. Shut up already, Steamer. This thread is to honor our soldiers(fathers, grandfathers etc) who fought and died. Not question/debate the motives behind war. I agree. There are 364 other days of the year to argue and contradict about it. Sometimes you protesters stoop to an all time low to be heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EX_Bert_Worshipper Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 I agree. There are 364 other days of the year to argue and contradict about it. Sometimes you protesters stoop to an all time low to be heard. Agreed...start a new anti-war thread. This one is about respect. I agree with a lot of anti-war sentiment, but I still paid my respects. Remember people: not everyone had a choice. I remember: those who were drafted; those who were coerced into thinking fighting for their country was noble, only to realize the harsh realities of what war really meant; and those families who have had to / have to deal with their son, daughter, husband, wife, sister, brother, etc. sacrificing everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buggernut Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Agreed...start a new anti-war thread. This one is about respect. I agree with a lot of anti-war sentiment, but I still paid my respects. Remember people: not everyone had a choice. I remember: those who were drafted; those who were coerced into thinking fighting for their country was noble, only to realize the harsh realities of what war really meant; and those families who have had to / have to deal with their son, daughter, husband, wife, sister, brother, etc. sacrificing everything. So shall we also pay our respects to fallen Nazi soldiers? By Chelsea's defense of imperialistic missions, we might as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_time_hockey Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 So shall we also pay our respects to fallen Nazi soldiers? By Chelsea's defense of imperialistic missions, we might as well. Of course you should. They are humans too and alot of them really didn't know what they were doing or the real person that they were following orders from. I mean just yesterday the French invited the Germans to their Rememberance Ceremonies. As French President Nicolas Sarkozy put it "French-German friendship is sealed with blood." They were invaded twice by the same nation but at the same time realize that there were humans on the other side. Rememberance Day is not totally about honouring the war heros. Lest We Forget is urging us to remember the horrors that people fought thru in the 2 world wars and not to repeat them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Implied Consent Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Our family is total anti war pacifist. But at the same time we realize that it is possible to to have respect for those who lost their lives without glorifying war. To argue against the concept of war is not to say that no good comes of it or that all those involved are complicit in every atrocity. In addition, many of the those involved on both sides were conscripts. No choice. War is the lazy way to expedite a political or financial agenda. It is always a failure of mankind when it comes to war. To allow ourselves to embrace our animalistic and instinctual tendency for aggression is unacceptable. We have the ability to find alternative solutions. WW1 & WW2 cannot be an eternal justification for armed conflict simply because "our side" "won". The loser every time in war is the common man. We are the ones who's lives are on the line. The financiers, the politicians, the generals, they risk nothing but their reputation. I will never allow my children to fight imperialistic wars on foreign soil. I would fight to the death to defend them on my doorstep, however. No army should be allowed to fight on foreign soil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_time_hockey Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Our family is total anti war pacifist. But at the same time we realize that it is possible to to have respect for those who lost their lives without glorifying war. To argue against the concept of war is not to say that no good comes of it or that all those involved are complicit in every atrocity. In addition, many of the those involved on both sides were conscripts. No choice. War is the lazy way to expedite a political or financial agenda. It is always a failure of mankind when it comes to war. To allow ourselves to embrace our animalistic and instinctual tendency for aggression is unacceptable. We have the ability to find alternative solutions. WW1 & WW2 cannot be an eternal justification for armed conflict simply because "our side" "won". The loser every time in war is the common man. We are the ones who's lives are on the line. The financiers, the politicians, the generals, they risk nothing but their reputation. I will never allow my children to fight imperialistic wars on foreign soil. I would fight to the death to defend them on my doorstep, however. No army should be allowed to fight on foreign soil. So we should have just let the Nazis take out all the Jews in the manner they did because the threat wasn't on our soil? So how would you suggest that the British stop the German rockets that fell on London and other towns in the UK without going to war on German soil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suolucidir Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Our family is total anti war pacifist. But at the same time we realize that it is possible to to have respect for those who lost their lives without glorifying war. To argue against the concept of war is not to say that no good comes of it or that all those involved are complicit in every atrocity. In addition, many of the those involved on both sides were conscripts. No choice. War is the lazy way to expedite a political or financial agenda. It is always a failure of mankind when it comes to war. To allow ourselves to embrace our animalistic and instinctual tendency for aggression is unacceptable. We have the ability to find alternative solutions. WW1 & WW2 cannot be an eternal justification for armed conflict simply because "our side" "won". The loser every time in war is the common man. We are the ones who's lives are on the line. The financiers, the politicians, the generals, they risk nothing but their reputation. I will never allow my children to fight imperialistic wars on foreign soil. I would fight to the death to defend them on my doorstep, however. No army should be allowed to fight on foreign soil. Those who will not raise arms are at the mercy of those who will. I have a problem with a democracy who promotes the concept of "pre-emptive" wars, but war and conflict will not simply go away. Not in my lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suolucidir Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 So shall we also pay our respects to fallen Nazi soldiers? By Chelsea's defense of imperialistic missions, we might as well. If you're a family man in a country that has both adopted an "you're either with us, or against us" attitude, and has begun performing genocide on the stated enemy, you might be surprised at what atrocities you're capable of. It is often the situation which guides our actions. Even the soldiers at Guantanamo who abused their POW's weren't especially cruel people. They were ordinary people in a peculiar situation. I'm not saying forgive and forget. I'm just saying it's awfully easy to cast judgment from our modern-day thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Implied Consent Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 So we should have just let the Nazis take out all the Jews in the manner they did because the threat wasn't on our soil? So how would you suggest that the British stop the German rockets that fell on London and other towns in the UK without going to war on German soil? It starts before that. You can't pick the flower if the seed hasn't been planted. And you can't invoke Godwins law to justify war. Its insufferable to be so simple. I'm not saying you run around playing Chamberlain at all. It is a commonly acknowledged fact that the right thing to do usually isn't the easiest. I guess I hold out hope for the potential for mankind. To submit to war is weak. I have no quarrels with anyone that I feel need to be solved with violence. Both of my grandfathers fought in WW2 (France & Philippines) they both came home with the same viewpoint (that we had allowed the world to come to such a point) and passed it on to their families. I mean you still have people in my home country (USA) who think that evil doers hate their freedom and that's why we're at war now. They have no concept of historical American intervention in the middle east. And before you start to think you're having a familiar old discussion, we've done this before when I went by Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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