nitronuts Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Food for thought, i thought this was pretty interesting: Website: http://ubcskytrain.wordpress.com/ Facebook group: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=73380534833 TIME IS MONEY LRT SUPPORTERS: It’s okay to have longer travel times (which is what ground-level LRT will bring) in exchange for a “community-friendly system”. FACT: (1) SkyTrain will have 2-3 times more capacity and more than twice the speed of an ground level LRT line due to its private right-of-way. Speed is an important factor for the daily commuter, as shown by bus ridership statistics for the Broadway corridor: 99 B-Line (60,000 passengers per day); other Broadway bus routes (40,000 per-day) = total Broadway bus ridership is 100,000 passengers per day. There is a reason why a large majority of Broadway transit commuters take the 99 B-Line: speed and convenience. The 99 B-Line is a rapid bus service, and it is at capacity in terms of the number of buses that can be put into service (according to Translink, over 120 articulated buses were dedicated to the 99 B-Line in 2006; 10% of the entire Translink bus fleet). Counting the 99 B-Line’s 60,000 daily riders alone, that is more than the ridership of Toronto’s streetcar lines. (2) The 12-km SkyTrain extension from VCC/Clarke Station to UBC via the Broadway corridor will take between 15-20-minutes travel time from terminus to terminus. Stations will be located at Finning, Main/Kingsway, Cambie (vital interchange station with Canada Line), Oak (hospital precinct), Granville, Arbutus, Macdonald, Alma, Sasamat/West Point Grey Village, and UBC transit interchange. All of these stations parallel the existing 99 B-Line service. A SkyTrain would be mainly tunneled, and with its own private right-of-way would be allowed to reach speeds of 80 km/h. A ground-level LRT line would begin from Commercial/Broadway Station, and would take a travel time of between 30-45-minutes from terminus to terminus. It would have the same stations as the above mentioned SkyTrain with an additional four to six stations. Its higher travel time, on par with the existing 99 B-Line bus service, is a result of the line running through city streets instead of its own private right-of-way; as it runs in city streets, it must abide local traffic laws and speed limit of 50 kms/h. This will no doubt affect the extension’s reliability as a real alternative to the car: peak-hour traffic, road congestion, traffic accidents, etc. In addition, commuters will be given a one-train ride with SkyTrain: no transfer will be needed, saving significant time. It also offers higher train frequencies and flexible schedule adjustments. On the contrary, LRT tends to have less frequent schedules due to the expense of having drivers and it would require a time-costly transfer from the region’s main transit network: SkyTrain (as it would simply be an extension of the Millennium Line). Such a pointless transfer would also affect ridership. (3) SkyTrain is the region’s main transit network. Such a network should be high in speed, capacity, reliability, and frequency. Metro Vancouver axed a highway expansion plan in the 1970’s in favour of building a competent transit network: we must build a competent transit backbone that makes up for our lack in road capacity. (4) For such a costly expense, ground-level LRT will be a minor upgrade from the existing 99 B-Line bus service. The 99 B-Line is overflowing with riders, it needs something far greater than that to take its place. LRT is a short-term solution and will simply be a “99 B-Line with steel wheels”. On the other hand, SkyTrain will provide a long-term solution for the corridor’s transit needs. (5) Frequent trolley service will still exist, given the importance of local service along the Broadway corridor. It will complement the SkyTrain service. (6) A 2000 study by the City of Vancouver concluded that an LRT line, with 16 stations from Commercial to UBC along the Broadway corridor, would rake in 140,000 daily riders. However, a SkyTrain extension from VCC/Clarke to Arbutus combined with a rapid bus service from Arbutus to UBC would bring in 150,000 daily riders. Note that the study was completed before the U-Pass was implemented, before record high gas prices, and before the green shift took priority. Following the 2002 implementation of the U-Pass, transit ridership at UBC increased significantly: in 2002 daily ridership was at 29,700 but by 2004 it was 50,000; a 68% increase in ridership in just two years because of the U-Pass! Transit ridership still increased significantly in the years after. The study also does not account for the improved transit services since, especially the new Canada Line that will be opening in September 2009. Taking account that the study was completed nearly ten years ago, and with all the changes to the region since then, ridership for a SkyTrain extension to UBC could rake in more than 200,000 passengers per day. For comparison’s sake, the Expo Line (29-kms) currently has a daily ridership of 185,000; Millennium Line (20-kms) at 75,000; and the projected daily ridership for the Canada Line (19-kms) and Evergreen Line (11-kms) is at 100,000 and 80,000. ROUTE AND CONSTRUCTION METHODOLOGY: LRT LRT SUPPORTERS: Building light rail is fast and painless, unlike building SkyTrain; light rail won’t require digging up the road, while SkyTrain will. Businesses will not be affected. With light rail, parking spaces will not be lost both during the construction process and after construction is complete. LRT can be built on West 4th Avenue, instead of Broadway. LRT will not require tunneling. LRT will cost only a fraction of what SkyTrain would cost. FACT: (7) If light rail were the chosen technology for the extension, a trunk sewer underneath Broadway will require a costly removal and relocation. Thus, it will require digging up the entire street, like a large trench, and will be time consuming… (8) …In addition to removing the Broadway trunk sewer, ground level light rail construction will require the closure of several lanes and all on-street parking lanes. Traffic will be reduced to two-lanes, similarly to Cambie Canada Line construction…. (9) All in all, with light rail Broadway merchants will still be significantly affected by construction for about 2 years. In comparison, most of Cambie has been closed for about the same period for Canada Line construction. Light rail construction is far painless as claimed. It should also be noted that the construction timeline for an LRT line in the middle of a road should not be confused with the construction timeline for an LRT or streetcar line with its already existing private right-of-way. (10) As Broadway is a narrow street, a ground-level light rail system would result in the permanent removal of the majority of the on-street parking spaces that Broadway merchants hold onto so dearly. Nearly all of Broadway will also be reduced to a two-lane road (one lane in each direction) due to the massive amount of spacing needed for ground level light-rail; a major east-west road artery in the city will be abolished. (11) Any mass transit extension would need to be located along the Broadway corridor. West 4th Avenue would not work as it would skip the main employment hubs along Broadway, thus reducing potential ridership significantly. The Broadway corridor catches 16th Avenue to 4th Avenue; more people live along the upper corridor rather than 4th Avenue. (12) LRT would likely require significant tunneling due to the steep grades on the hill west of Alma Street. LRT trains will be unable to climb the hill on such a steep slope. (13) It is a myth that $2.8-billion could build you 200-kms of light rail. Such a claim would likely mean the routes for these 200-kms of light rail lines already have pre-existing rail right-of-ways: we know that certainly does not exist in Vancouver, especially not for the Broadway mass transit extension. Proponents also falsely advocate this claim by “cherry-picking” the best features of LRT, all of which come with a high price. The real cost of 200-kms of real LRT in the region would likely be at least $12-billion. ROUTE AND CONSTRUCTION METHODOLOGY: SkyTrain LRT SUPPORTERS: SkyTrain construction along the Broadway corridor will devastate local businesses just like Canada Line construction. SkyTrain is also expensive to build and operate. FACT: (14) The SkyTrain extension would likely occur under 10th Avenue (and NOT on Broadway), one block/60-metres south of Broadway. Station entrances will still be located on Broadway…. (15)…Such an extension under 10th Avenue, bored or cut and cover, would significantly reduce the impact on local businesses… (16)…With the large $2.8-billion budget, a vital long-term investment into the region’s infrastructure, it is likely that planners are planning for a bored tunnel design rather than cut and cover to avert most of the mistakes on Cambie. (17) With an underground system, built on 10th Avenue and likely a bored tunnel, businesses will not be as affected (compared to a ground-level LRT line or a Cambie-style cut and cover tunnel). (18) Local businesses stand to benefit significantly from the additional foot traffic within SkyTrain station precincts. (19) SkyTrain may cost billions to build, but this is a long-term investment into our region’s infrastructure: an investment that could last up to a century. On the contrary, LRT with its limited capacity and speed is a short-term investment. (20) SkyTrain, with its driverless automation, is cheaper to operate annually compared to driver systems such as LRT. In addition, there are capital cost savings and efficiencies from using the same maintenance yard/facilities, operations centre, and train rolling stock. A REGIONAL CORRIDOR BUILD NOTHING & LRT SUPPORTERS: There is not enough ridership to support a rapid transit rail line along the Broadway corridor. Any rapid transit rail line’s real purpose would be to solely serve the University of British Columbia. FACT: (21) Central Broadway/Cambie “Uptown” is the second largest employment centre in the entire region after Vancouver City Centre. According to a 1996 census, there were 40,000 jobs in the area and half of these people live outside of Vancouver making the district a regional centre. We can only assume that the number of jobs in the area has grown significantly since 13 years ago and will continue to grow. In addition, the Broadway corridor is one of the most densely populated areas outside of Downtown Vancouver. Central Broadway is also part of the Metropolitan Core, part of Downtown Vancouver; a focus area for population and employment growth. All of the above only serves to support ridership. And as mentioned above, there are already 100,000 daily bus riders along the Broadway corridor making it the busiest bus corridor in the entire region. (22) The University of British Columbia is one of the largest employment centres in the entire region. With over 50,000 students and faculty, it will only continue to grow. In addition, the university is developing plans to build new dense residential neighbourhoods – this will only serve to support ridership. As already mentioned above, transit ridership at the university was at 50,000 in 2004…we can only assume it will be much more today. It will only grow with additional and improved services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Columbo Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 If this was a facebook post, I would "like" it For those of you who missed the link in there, join the facebook group!! http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=73380534833 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChelseaFC Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Oh wow, these a-holes finally figured it out. 10 years ago when I first started taking the 99B line, I only had to wonder why there isn't some sort of LRT from Broadway to UBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Columbo Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 Oh wow, these a-holes finally figured it out. 10 years ago when I first started taking the 99B line, I only had to wonder why there isn't some sort of LRT from Broadway to UBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abaddon Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 I'd be very careful about any mass construction in Kitsilano. Still the best part of Vancouver in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trek Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 lol good luck with cut&cover around the arbutus and macdonald, along broadway to main street. You think one merchant made a fuss about Cambie, holy crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Columbo Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 lol good luck with cut&cover around the arbutus and macdonald, along broadway to main street. You think one merchant made a fuss about Cambie, holy crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 12, 2009 Author Share Posted July 12, 2009 Oh no, you're missing the point! The group is AGAINST LRT, in favour of Skytrain! And "they" haven't figured anything out, this is just a group of people who support a common cause. Hey nitro, could I maybe suggest that you shorten the original post and make it more clear and to-the-point? I know it's copied and pasted from the facebook group, but if people really want to read it all they can easily find it in the group. As it is, people's attention spans aren't long enough to read it all and many will end up missing the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Columbo Posted July 12, 2009 Share Posted July 12, 2009 lol, it's information overload. i don't even know where to start for a summary. - because SkyTrain has its own right of way, it'll be faster unlike ground level light rail which is prone to collisions such as at intersections....especially with a street like Broadway, a ton of intersections. Collisions would affect the reliability of the transit service. - SkyTrain has a higher capacity and faster speed than LRT (15 mins verses 30 mins). The greater capacity ensures that it's a long-term solution for the Broadway corridor. - if it's LRT, a time costly transfer would be required for between Millennium Line SkyTrain and LRT. If it's SkyTrain, it would be a seamless one-train ride ride from the Millennium Line. - operational costs are lower for SkyTrain - enough ridership, 200,000 boardings per day - both LRT and SkyTrain would require some sort of construction hassle, with SkyTrain being the least hassle being that it will likely be bored underground - a SkyTrain line would likely run underground on 10th Avenue which is one block/60-metres north of Broadway. Station entrances would still be located on Broadway. - a SkyTrain line to UBC doesn't just serve the university, it also serves the Central Broadway corridor which is the region's second largest employment centre after Downtown Vancouver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temujin Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Instead of ranting about taxpayer dollars and the inefficiencies of publicly funded projects like I typically do, I'll ask these questions instead: Why is this project needed? Are commuters to UBC really so hard-done-by with the currently available transit options? How many people will really benefit from this project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Instead of ranting about taxpayer dollars and the inefficiencies of publicly funded projects like I typically do, I'll ask these questions instead: Why is this project needed? Are commuters to UBC really so hard-done-by with the currently available transit options? How many people will really benefit from this project? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temujin Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Note that the study was completed before the U-Pass was implemented, before record high gas prices, and before the green shift took priority. Following the 2002 implementation of the U-Pass, transit ridership at UBC increased significantly: in 2002 daily ridership was at 29,700 but by 2004 it was 50,000; a 68% increase in ridership in just two years because of the U-Pass! Transit ridership still increased significantly in the years after. The study also does not account for the improved transit services since, especially the new Canada Line that will be opening in September 2009. Taking account that the study was completed nearly ten years ago, and with all the changes to the region since then, ridership for a SkyTrain extension to UBC could rake in more than 200,000 passengers per day. For comparison's sake, the Expo Line (29-kms) currently has a daily ridership of 185,000; Millennium Line (20-kms) at 75,000; and the projected daily ridership for the Canada Line (19-kms) and Evergreen Line (11-kms) is at 100,000 and 80,000. (21) Central Broadway/Cambie "Uptown" is the second largest employment centre in the entire region after Vancouver City Centre. According to a 1996 census, there were 40,000 jobs in the area and half of these people live outside of Vancouver making the district a regional centre. We can only assume that the number of jobs in the area has grown significantly since 13 years ago and will continue to grow. In addition, the Broadway corridor is one of the most densely populated areas outside of Downtown Vancouver. Central Broadway is also part of the Metropolitan Core, part of Downtown Vancouver; a focus area for population and employment growth. All of the above only serves to support ridership. And as mentioned above, there are already 100,000 daily bus riders along the Broadway corridor making it the busiest bus corridor in the entire region. (22) The University of British Columbia is one of the largest employment centres in the entire region. With over 50,000 students and faculty, it will only continue to grow. In addition, the university is developing plans to build new dense residential neighbourhoods - this will only serve to support ridership. As already mentioned above, transit ridership at the university was at 50,000 in 2004...we can only assume it will be much more today. It will only grow with additional and improved services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kazin! Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Only time I have ever been to UBC, I thought it was a nice drive, but a little out of the way. It must be a pain in the arse to live in North Van or Surrey and go to school at UBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeak Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 I looked at the title... then noticed it was NitroNuts.... how surprising...haha... I am 100% in support of this idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 This was needed 10 years ago. Perhaps 7-10 more years of debating it, 3 years to build it, it MIGHT be in service 20-25 years after the need for it was first acknowledged. Boo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 I think what's kind of getting lost in the "skytrain vs. LTR" debate is the fact that we need rapid transit to UBC in the first place. What kind should really be a secondary debate (though I must say that in my mind, skytrain is the ONLY option). Anyway, stuff like 99-B Line ridership stats, the student & working population of UBC, Broadway congestion estimates, route maps, etc. are the first bits of info people need. Followed up with info on why skytrain would best fulfill the requirements of the Broadway corridor. The way the info's being presented right now, it seems like it's all about LTR, and this might confuse people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeGillis58 Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Would it be possible to extend the SkyTrain underground to SFU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inane Posted July 13, 2009 Share Posted July 13, 2009 Would it be possible to extend the SkyTrain underground to SFU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitronuts Posted July 13, 2009 Author Share Posted July 13, 2009 Would it be possible to extend the SkyTrain underground to SFU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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