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#1 Guest_AriGold_*

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 08:33 PM

As most of you know by now the Canucks have Dale Weise going to Salary Arbitration. I knotice alot of people asking what arbitration is so here is an easy explanation of Salary Arbitration. Hope it helps !


NHL salary arbitration is a tool available to settle some contract disputes. The player and team each propose a salary for the coming season, and argue their cases at a hearing. The arbitrator, a neutral third party, then sets the player's salary. Most players must have four years of NHL experience before they are eligible for salary arbitration (the term is reduced for those who signed their first NHL contract after the age of 20). The process is used by restricted free agents, because it is one of the few bargaining options available to them.

The deadline for players to request salary arbitration is July 5, with cases heard in late July and early August. A player and team can continue to negotiate up until the date of the hearing, in hopes of agreeing on a contract and avoiding the arbitration process.

Teams can also ask for salary arbitration. But a player can be taken to arbitration only once in his career, and can never receive less than 85 per-cent of his previous year's salary. There are no such restrictions on the number of times a player can ask for arbitration, or the size of the salary awarded. A decision must be made within 48 hours of the hearing. When the decision is announced, the team has the right to decline, or "walk away" from the award. If the team exercises this right, the player can declare himself an unrestricted free agent.


Salary Arbitration Proceedings
Every arbitration hearing begins at 9:00 a.m. EDT with the side who filed presenting their case first, followed by the other party. The same order continues for the ensuing rebuttals. Each party is allowed at most 90 minutes total, and they can allocate that time as they wish between their opening arguments and rebuttal.

The filing party is entitled to an additional 10 minutes for surrebuttal only if the opposing side brings up new issues or comparable players (those who are similar in statistics and game, and potentially in contract terms) in their rebuttal.

The evidence that can be used in arbitration cases:
The player's "overall performance" including statistics in all previous seasons.
Injuries, illnesses and the number of games played.
The player's length of service with the team and in the NHL.
The player's "overall contribution" to the team's success or failure.
The player's "special qualities of leadership or public appeal."
The performance and salary of any player alleged to be "comparable" to the player in the dispute.
Comparable players (an arbiter cannot deem another player comparable unless he has been mentioned by one of the parties)

Evidence that is not admissible:

The salary and performance of a "comparable" player who signed a contract as an unrestricted free agent.
Testimonials, video and media reports.
The financial state of the team.
The salary cap and the state of the team's payroll.
Contracts of players not mentioned as comparable players
Past contract offers or negotiations between the player and the team

Arbitration Decisions and Awards
Once an arbitration hearing comes to a close, the arbiter must come to a resolution within the next 48 hours. When his decision is made, there are four key points that must be included: the term of the contract (generally one year, occasionally two years), the salary, any minor league clauses and salary (the latter if applicable), and an explanation of the decision as well as which comparable players were used in consideration.
The team then has an additional two days to consider the ruling before either signing the player to the arbiter-imposed contract or choosing to walk away, leaving the player as an unrestricted free agent.

How NHL Teams and Players can Avoid Arbitration
The preference on both sides of the negotiating table is generally to reach a deal before the scheduled arbitration hearing date, and more often than not that is exactly what happens. From 2007 through 2009, 67 players had filed but only 14 had actually presented their case before an arbiter.


http://proicehockey....arbitration.htm

Edited by AriGold, 14 July 2012 - 09:17 AM.


#2 alpha_dawg

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 08:46 PM

Hope they're not using this message board for Raymonds arbitration.

#3 absent

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 08:56 PM

I can completely understand why Raymond opted to go through arbitration, and even Hansen seems somewhat justifiable as it's somewhat difficult to peg down what he's worth versus what he may think he's worth, etc.

But Tanner Glass...if i were a bit of a fringe player with a team like Vancouver i think i'd be very careful in how i dealt with the situation. He's essentially a role player, plain an simple. I like him a lot as a role player, and i'm sure Gillis does as well...but role players tend to be replaceable. I'm not sure what he's hoping to accomplish here, and hopefully the arbitrator comes down with a very fair ruling for a role player such as Glass...and there's no further issue. But it seems like a risky move for Glass. If he's awarded too much, he stands a legitimate chance of having the team walk away. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, he could end up getting far less than he thinks he's worth. To me, it just seems like Glass isn't in a position where he is unreplaceable and doesn't have nearly enough leverage and value to the team to land a significant pay raise and make it all worth it.
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#4 mothalova06

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:05 PM

I hope that Raymond and his agent do not use Nikolai Kulemin's (who was RFA) contract from a few days ago as part of their arguement. That guy now gets 2.35 million per year for scoring 16 goals and 36 points last season, that also being a career high. If that is used as a comparison, Raymond will easily get 3 million per year, which I think is too high for him at this point. I believe that he should sign a contract like Burrows did. The contract should be reasonable but still cheap for the Canucks because as good as he is and as good as he could potentially be, Raymond has only had the one good so he should have to prove it again and again in the upcoming seasons that he is worth 3+ million.

Burrows realized this, so he said that 2 million per year is plenty of money because he could have easily had a bad year and played on the 3rd line the entire time. Thankfully he had an amazing year and now that 2 million cap hit is the best bargain (either that or the Sedins 6.1) in the league.

Let's just hope Raymond has the same thought process and will only ask for 2.5 per year. I would give him the Samuelsson and Malhotra contract 3 years/7.5 million. And now that Grabner is no longer on the team, we do not have a whole lot of top 6 depth on the wing (Schroeder/Hodgson not ready for top 6 duty quite yet), so MG will likely have no choice but to accept what the arbitrator gives Raymond even if it's a bit high like 3-3.5 million. So then MG will also have no choice but to trade Bieksa, even if it's not for as much as he should get back. I believe that Raymond is the kind of guy that will take a "discount" and will stay here for less than 3 million even if that is what he could get in arbitration.

#5 D1rty D4ve

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:07 PM

Very informative, thanks.

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#6 Brad Marchand

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:08 PM

Good info to digest. Quite informative.

+1
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#7 UVERadam

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:13 PM

abritration is only for a 1 year term right?

#8 skyfall

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:13 PM

I can completely understand why Raymond opted to go through arbitration, and even Hansen seems somewhat justifiable as it's somewhat difficult to peg down what he's worth versus what he may think he's worth, etc.

But Tanner Glass...if i were a bit of a fringe player with a team like Vancouver i think i'd be very careful in how i dealt with the situation. He's essentially a role player, plain an simple. I like him a lot as a role player, and i'm sure Gillis does as well...but role players tend to be replaceable. I'm not sure what he's hoping to accomplish here, and hopefully the arbitrator comes down with a very fair ruling for a role player such as Glass...and there's no further issue. But it seems like a risky move for Glass. If he's awarded too much, he stands a legitimate chance of having the team walk away. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, he could end up getting far less than he thinks he's worth. To me, it just seems like Glass isn't in a position where he is unreplaceable and doesn't have nearly enough leverage and value to the team to land a significant pay raise and make it all worth it.


Usually arbitration is used as leverage... most cases don't make it to arbitration and a deal is reached before then. It's similar to some lawsuits where someone is sued with the intention of getting a good settlement rather than going through the whole course of the trial. Sometimes the battle isn't about strictly about money but about other terms such as contract length, one way deal vs. two way, etc. Glass has nothing to lose though because he's given a minimum qualifying offer as set in the CBA rules and he can only stand to make higher... no arbitrator will award him less than the minimum.

#9 BedBeats™2.0

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:17 PM

Hmmmm just read that along with Raymond, Glass and Hansen have also filed for arbitration.

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#10 Supsup

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:21 PM

[b]
When the decision is announced, the team has the right to decline, or "walk away" from the award. If the team exercises this right, the player can declare himself an unrestricted free agent.


So, does the player has the right to decline from the award? If so, what happens if the player walk away?

#11 Guest_AriGold_*

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:31 PM

So, does the player has the right to decline from the award? If so, what happens if the player walk away?



No, The player is stuck with the result if they filed for it. They usually file with the thought that they will get more money than offered. They wouldnt file with the team if they didnt want to stick around. If the result is too great only the Canucks can walk away.

#12 elvis15

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:48 PM

No, The player is stuck with the result if they filed for it. They usually file with the thought that they will get more money than offered. They wouldnt file with the team if they didnt want to stick around. If the result is too great only the Canucks can walk away.

Spoken like a true agent!

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#13 Guest_AriGold_*

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 09:51 PM

Spoken like a true agent!



haha +1

#14 riceeatingcanuck

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 10:06 PM

:D
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#15 Zing!

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 10:51 PM

abritration is only for a 1 year term right?


It's 1 or 2 years, decided upon before the hearings start.

#16 Bob.Loblaw

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:09 PM

Does that mean that MG can use Burrows' contract against them?

#17 Guest_AriGold_*

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:15 PM

Does that mean that MG can use Burrows' contract against them?



Burrows has 15 goals and 10 assists when he signed his contract on February 4th approximatly 60 game into the season. He was paid market Value when signed.
He finished with 28G and 23A which means because Raymond got 25G and 28A last year they are not allowed to be compared.
Based on:

Evidence that is not admissible:

The salary and performance of a "comparable" player who signed a contract as an unrestricted free agent

.

Edited by AriGold, 05 July 2010 - 11:16 PM.


#18 Zing!

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:19 PM

Burrows has 15 goals and 10 assists when he signed his contract on February 4th approximatly 60 game into the season. He was paid market Value when signed.
He finished with 28G and 23A which means because Raymond got 25G and 28A last year they are not allowed to be compared.
Based on:

.


But Burrows signed before becoming a UFA. Could that clause only mean people that went out on the UFA market and (potentially) got into a bidding war with other teams?

#19 Guest_AriGold_*

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:26 PM

But Burrows signed before becoming a UFA. Could that clause only mean people that went out on the UFA market and (potentially) got into a bidding war with other teams?



I did some deeper digging, Found out that they can use comparable players against each other but 1 party must mention them and the arbiters must agree at least 2-1.

#20 Hax

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:37 PM

I did some deeper digging, Found out that they can use comparable players against each other but 1 party must mention them and the arbiters must agree at least 2-1.

That seems like a pretty specific loophole between the last and first rules (respectively) of arbitration.

#21 Guest_AriGold_*

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Posted 05 July 2010 - 11:42 PM

That seems like a pretty specific loophole between the last and first rules (respectively) of arbitration.



Agreed.. The canucks will compare him to Burrows 2 million and Raymond will compare himself to Mike Fisher who got the same exact points as Raymond last year but resigned for five-year, $21 million contract during the 2008 season

#22 Zing!

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 12:12 AM

Agreed.. The canucks will compare him to Burrows 2 million and Raymond will compare himself to Mike Fisher who got the same exact points as Raymond last year but resigned for five-year, $21 million contract during the 2008 season


But Fisher has far more years and experience and 40+ point seasons and Selke nominations under his belt.

#23 Hax

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 12:16 AM

But Fisher has far more years and experience and 40+ point seasons and Selke nominations under his belt.

Fisher's also enetering his "prime", which is what AriGold might have been getting at. There's a plethora of variables either way; I don't see Raymond getting anything over 2.5m/yr, but even then he's asking a lot of the organization that gave him many, many chances when he (I daresay) refused to shine.

#24 Bananas

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 12:23 AM

As most of you know by now the Canucks have 3 players going to Arbitration. Hansen, Glass and Raymond. I knotice alot of people asking what arbitration is so here is an easy explanation of Salary Arbitration. Hope it helps !


NHL salary arbitration is a tool available to settle some contract disputes. The player and team each propose a salary for the coming season, and argue their cases at a hearing. The arbitrator, a neutral third party, then sets the player's salary. Most players must have four years of NHL experience before they are eligible for salary arbitration (the term is reduced for those who signed their first NHL contract after the age of 20). The process is used by restricted free agents, because it is one of the few bargaining options available to them.

The deadline for players to request salary arbitration is July 5, with cases heard in late July and early August. A player and team can continue to negotiate up until the date of the hearing, in hopes of agreeing on a contract and avoiding the arbitration process.

Teams can also ask for salary arbitration. But a player can be taken to arbitration only once in his career, and can never receive less than 85 per-cent of his previous year's salary. There are no such restrictions on the number of times a player can ask for arbitration, or the size of the salary awarded. A decision must be made within 48 hours of the hearing. When the decision is announced, the team has the right to decline, or "walk away" from the award. If the team exercises this right, the player can declare himself an unrestricted free agent.


Salary Arbitration Proceedings
Every arbitration hearing begins at 9:00 a.m. EDT with the side who filed presenting their case first, followed by the other party. The same order continues for the ensuing rebuttals. Each party is allowed at most 90 minutes total, and they can allocate that time as they wish between their opening arguments and rebuttal.

The filing party is entitled to an additional 10 minutes for surrebuttal only if the opposing side brings up new issues or comparable players (those who are similar in statistics and game, and potentially in contract terms) in their rebuttal.

The evidence that can be used in arbitration cases:
The player's "overall performance" including statistics in all previous seasons.
Injuries, illnesses and the number of games played.
The player's length of service with the team and in the NHL.
The player's "overall contribution" to the team's success or failure.
The player's "special qualities of leadership or public appeal."
The performance and salary of any player alleged to be "comparable" to the player in the dispute.
Comparable players (an arbiter cannot deem another player comparable unless he has been mentioned by one of the parties)

Evidence that is not admissible:

The salary and performance of a "comparable" player who signed a contract as an unrestricted free agent.
Testimonials, video and media reports.
The financial state of the team.
The salary cap and the state of the team's payroll.
Contracts of players not mentioned as comparable players
Past contract offers or negotiations between the player and the team

Arbitration Decisions and Awards

Once an arbitration hearing comes to a close, the arbiter must come to a resolution within the next 48 hours. When his decision is made, there are four key points that must be included: the term of the contract (generally one year, occasionally two years), the salary, any minor league clauses and salary (the latter if applicable), and an explanation of the decision as well as which comparable players were used in consideration.
The team then has an additional two days to consider the ruling before either signing the player to the arbiter-imposed contract or choosing to walk away, leaving the player as an unrestricted free agent.

How NHL Teams and Players can Avoid Arbitration

The preference on both sides of the negotiating table is generally to reach a deal before the scheduled arbitration hearing date, and more often than not that is exactly what happens. From 2007 through 2009, 67 players had filed but only 14 had actually presented their case before an arbiter.


http://proicehockey....arbitration.htm


woah, positives?? WHAT??

lol...

again, thanks for posting.
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#25 Zing!

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 12:38 AM

Fisher's also enetering his "prime", which is what AriGold might have been getting at. There's a plethora of variables either way; I don't see Raymond getting anything over 2.5m/yr, but even then he's asking a lot of the organization that gave him many, many chances when he (I daresay) refused to shine.


Since you can use previous season records as part of the arbitration, Fisher might not be a good comparison. Fisher is a more defensive (previously Selke nominated) secondary scoring centerman. In that case, he's more comparable to Kesler. FIsher is also 6 years older if he's entering his prime. Raymond might not have reached it yet.

#26 the_slowburner

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 01:46 AM

Compared to other young forwards w/ similar numbers it seems like Raymond could get 3 M per. If that's the case does Gillis let him walk or sign him hoping he finds some consistency in his game and is worth the 3 mil? And if he does let him go (because of cash issues), what's plan B?




#27 BadgerFace

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 01:53 AM

Thanks Ari!It was driving me crazy that I didn't understand it earlier. I was discussing it earlier and I couldn't quite wrap my head around it until now!
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#28 nucksfaninotown

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 04:49 AM

thanks for that.
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#29 Zing!

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 11:14 AM

Compared to other young forwards w/ similar numbers it seems like Raymond could get 3 M per. If that's the case does Gillis let him walk or sign him hoping he finds some consistency in his game and is worth the 3 mil? And if he does let him go (because of cash issues), what's plan B?


Which other forwards would you compare him to that's making 3M?

#30 Guest_AriGold_*

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Posted 06 July 2010 - 01:31 PM

Which other forwards would you compare him to that's making 3M?



Hands down he will be compared to Nikolai Kulemin. Kulemin is 1 year younger and just signed a 2 year contract worth $2.35M per year.
He got 20 less points than Raymond and Burke paid that... Not good for us...




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