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15yr Girl in Delta beaten to death


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#391 Wetcoaster

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:23 AM

Can somebody please provide a link to an out of country site which names the accused?

Just don't post the names here, since that would be a criminal violation and will likely get you banned from the board.

I just love circumventing the law with loopholes and technicalities.

As would posting a link that contained the name, even if it were "out of country".
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#392 Sharpshooter

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:52 AM

The police may well have the murder weapon. All the story says is they are not releasing details. Those details will come out during the prelim.


Ah, gotcha....i misread that as if the police didn't know how she died.....

Me no comprendo.
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#393 silverpig

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 10:36 AM

As would posting a link that contained the name, even if it were "out of country".


What about posting a link to a site that had a link to another site with the name?

If that's a problem, then all links to google and facebook should be out...
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#394 Wetcoaster

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 11:01 AM

What about posting a link to a site that had a link to another site with the name?

If that's a problem, then all links to google and facebook should be out...

Yes if you post a link on this forum that leads to the name directly or indirectly then it would contravene the law on publication.
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#395 Common sense

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 06:33 PM

Yes if you post a link on this forum that leads to the name directly or indirectly then it would contravene the law on publication.


Dammit. Well, there goes that idea.
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#396 Upshall18

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Posted 13 May 2011 - 06:36 PM

Name used to be on a certain site. But last I checked, they removed any references to the name. Too late
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#397 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 07:51 AM

Yes if you post a link on this forum that leads to the name directly or indirectly then it would contravene the law on publication.

That's quite an overreaching arm of the law there.

Anyways, I managed to come across the name through a Google search with a few choice keywords. Did I just break the law by doing this search or dropping these hints?

Would Google also be liable if its servers were based in Canada?

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 14 May 2011 - 12:37 PM.

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#398 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:21 AM

That's quite an overreaching arm of the law there.

Anyways, I managed to come across the name... Did I just break the law by doing this... or dropping these hints?

How is it overreaching? The law is that you are prohibited from publishing the name of an accused under 18 years of age. The law is designed to have a broad reach and prevent persons resident in Canada under penalty of law from doing what you are doing.

Protection of Privacy of Young Persons

Identity of offender not to be published

110. (1) Subject to this section, no person shall publish the name of a young person, or any other information related to a young person, if it would identify the young person as a young person dealt with under this Act.


Yes you have breached the law by posting the manner in which the name may be viewed.

It also appears that you have breached the Board Rules as well.

Per the Delta Police press release on this issue:

Current Major Case Updates - Laura Szendrei
February 23, 2011 3:40pm

As the Delta Police continue their investigation into the homicide of Laura Szendrei we would like to clarify why the Delta Police or any other entity or person cannot identify the accused.

As explained in the press release issued on February 21, 2011, in this case the accused was a young person (under the age of 18 yrs old) at the time the offence was committed therefore the provisions under the Youth Criminal Justice Act are in effect and must be complied with

The Delta Police are aware that the general public may not be familiar with this provision and the responsibility that rests on everyone with respect to compliance.

In an effort to keep everyone informed the following will lay out the requirements that must be adhered to and the consequences if anyone is found to have acted contrary to this provision

Identity of offender not to be published
110. (1) Subject to this section, no person shall publish the name of a young person, or any other information related to a young person, if it would identify the young person as a young person dealt with under this Act.

Offences
138. (1) Every person who contravenes subsection 110(1) (identity of offender not to be published), 111(1) (identity of victim or witness not to be published), 118(1) (no access to records unless authorized) or 128(3) (disposal of R.C.M.P. records) or section 129 (no subsequent disclosure) of this Act, or subsection 38(1) (identity not to be published), (1.12) (no subsequent disclosure), (1.14) (no subsequent disclosure by school) or (1.15) (information to be kept separate), 45(2) (destruction of records) or 46(1) (prohibition against disclosure) of the Young Offenders Act, chapter Y-1 of the Revised Statutes of Canada, 1985,
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Definitions
2. (1) The definitions in this subsection apply in this Act. "publication" means the communication of information by making it known or accessible to the general public through any means, including print, radio or television broadcast, telecommunication or electronic means.

We are asking people to appreciate the seriousness of this offence and the necessity for each of us to adhere to the law.


Edited by Wetcoaster, 14 May 2011 - 11:32 AM.

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#399 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:30 PM

2. (1) The definitions in this subsection apply in this Act. "publication" means the communication of information by making it known or accessible to the general public through any means, including print, radio or television broadcast, telecommunication or electronic means.

I did not make the information accessible by any means. Does "communication of information" include telling people how the information can be obtained???

You can teach people how to make a bomb. That would amount to nothing more than a science lesson and a fulfilment of one's right to knowledge. To actually tell someone to use the bomb would make you a criminal conspirator in the act. Likewise, telling people how they can obtain classified or prohibited information should not be a criminal act in itself.

Thank god Google, Facebook and all technologically significant sites are not based in Canada. It's a good thing they're outside the jurisdiction and reach of the Canadian authorities, thereby giving us the option to look outside of our borders to circumvent their rule.

So does posting the following link make me a criminal?

http://wikileaks.org/

I'm sure there is plenty of banned information that the authorities don't want you to see there.

Edited by Buggernut, 14 May 2011 - 12:31 PM.

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#400 Donky

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:36 PM

Pretty sure if you search the internet you can find out the name....OOOPS I've said too much! :rolleyes:
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#401 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:42 PM

I did not make the information accessible by any means. Does "communication of information" include telling people how the information can be obtained???

You can teach people how to make a bomb. That would amount to nothing more than a science lesson and a fulfilment of one's right to knowledge. To actually tell someone to use the bomb would make you a criminal conspirator in the act. Likewise, telling people how they can obtain classified or prohibited information should not be a criminal act in itself.

Thank god Google, Facebook and all technologically significant sites are not based in Canada. It's a good thing they're outside the jurisdiction and reach of the Canadian authorities, thereby giving us the option to look outside of our borders to circumvent their rule.

So does posting the following link make me a criminal?

http://wikileaks.org/

I'm sure there is plenty of banned information that the authorities don't want you to see there.

Yes under the YCJA directing people how to obtain the information to identify the accused would be within the ambit of the law as set out.

I am not sure how a Wikileaks link contravenes the YCJA ban on providing information that would lead to the accused killer of Laura Szendrei.
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#402 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:52 PM

I am not sure how a Wikileaks link contravenes the YCJA ban on providing information that would lead to the accused killer of Laura Szendrei.

Just think outside of the YCJA here. I was talking about illegal information in general, and not just that pertaining to juvenile offenders.

Edited by Buggernut, 14 May 2011 - 12:53 PM.

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#403 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:55 PM

Just think outside of the YCJA here. I was talking about illegal information in general, and not just that pertaining to juvenile offenders.

Since there is no Canadian statute I can see that applies to Wikileaks, I do not see the issue.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 14 May 2011 - 12:56 PM.

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#404 prana16

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:57 PM

Yes if you post a link on this forum that leads to the name directly or indirectly then it would contravene the law on publication.


You posted the name of the victim. I right clicked said name in my browser which immediately took me to a page that gave the name of the accused.

It appears you have contravened the law and board rules.
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#405 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:05 PM

You posted the name of the victim. I right clicked said name in my browser which immediately took me to a page that gave the name of the accused.

It appears you have contravened the law and board rules.

Nope.
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#406 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:05 PM

Since there is no Canadian statute I can see that applies to Wikileaks, I do not see the issue.

Classified CSIS and parliamentary documents don't count, eh? (If there are any on Wikileaks.)
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#407 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:07 PM

Classified CSIS and parliamentary documents don't count, eh? (If there are any on Wikileaks.)

Not as I read the law and in particular the Charter.
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#408 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:08 PM

You posted the name of the victim. I right clicked said name in my browser which immediately took me to a page that gave the name of the accused.

It appears you have contravened the law and board rules.

I believe we have just entered a legal grey area that is open to the arbitrary discretion of the police and the courts.
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#409 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:42 PM

I believe we have just entered a legal grey area that is open to the arbitrary discretion of the police and the courts.

Nope.
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#410 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:48 PM

Nope.

Refer back to Donky's post: http://forum.canucks...ost__p__9672173

As obvious as it is, he just gave a hint that could potentially be used to obtain the name. Where do you draw the clear and definite cut-and-dry line?
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#411 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:11 PM

Refer back to Donky's post: http://forum.canucks...ost__p__9672173

As obvious as it is, he just gave a hint that could potentially be used to obtain the name. Where do you draw the clear and definite cut-and-dry line?

Mens rea?
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#412 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:24 PM

Mens rea?

Not that I know Latin nor legal jargon, but once again, the Internet proves useful in finding out thing that I don't already know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Anyways, that looks to be about as subjective and open to arbitrary judgement and assumptions as you can get. Good to know we live in an authoritarian police state with a broad reaching ambiguously defined set of laws that they can nail you with anytime anywhere at their convenience.
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#413 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:05 PM

Not that I know Latin nor legal jargon, but once again, the Internet proves useful in finding out thing that I don't already know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mens_rea

Anyways, that looks to be about as subjective and open to arbitrary judgement and assumptions as you can get. Good to know we live in an authoritarian police state with a broad reaching ambiguously defined set of laws that they can nail you with anytime anywhere at their convenience.

It is only ambiguous if you go by Wikipedia and do not know the Canadian case law as it pertains to mens rea (aka criminal intent).

In its most basic form it means an intention to commit a prohibited act. In Canada the usual test focuses on the actual or 'subjective' state of mind of the person accused of committing the offence. When you post "here is how you can get around the law on non-publication and find the name", it would be pretty easy for a court to find the requisite intent. Courts will impute intent based upon conduct and surrounding evidence. Your posts are simply waving a red flag.

OTOH simply posting the name of the victim would not lead to a finding of intent to breach the law on non-publication without any other evidence of intent to commit the prohibited act. In fact a warning to not commit the prohibited act would lead to the opposite conclusion and finding of lack of "mens rea" to breach the publication ban under the YCJA.

We do not live in an authoritarian police state - we live under the Rule of Law as set out in the Charter. If you are silly enough to try to skate around the edges of the law and you fall through, that is your problem.
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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#414 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:48 PM

It is only ambiguous if you go by Wikipedia and do not know the Canadian case law as it pertains to mens rea (aka criminal intent).

In its most basic form it means an intention to commit a prohibited act. In Canada the usual test focuses on the actual or 'subjective' state of mind of the person accused of committing the offence. When you post "here is how you can get around the law on non-publication and find the name", it would be pretty easy for a court to find the requisite intent. Courts will impute intent based upon conduct and surrounding evidence. Your posts are simply waving a red flag.

Actually, my statement was worded more along the lines of "I managed to come across the name through a Google search..." It's a statement of fact that I did the search and not a directive for anyone else to follow suit. In any case, teaching others how something can be done is a fundamental right, if not by law then by principle, just like my bomb making example, just as long as I don't tell them to actually do it.

We do not live in an authoritarian police state - we live under the Rule of Law as set out in the Charter. If you are silly enough to try to skate around the edges of the law and you fall through, that is your problem.

Isn't that what your profession as a lawyer is all about?
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#415 prana16

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:08 PM

Nope.



Unfortunately "nope" isn't a very reasoned response.

Now could you be more specific. What you posted led me directly to the name in question, how is that different than what other people have posted leading to the name. If others may have contravened the law why do you suppose that you haven't?

I would also prefer your answer in your own words rather than a cut and paste.
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#416 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:55 PM

Unfortunately "nope" isn't a very reasoned response.

Now could you be more specific. What you posted led me directly to the name in question, how is that different than what other people have posted leading to the name. If others may have contravened the law why do you suppose that you haven't?

I would also prefer your answer in your own words rather than a cut and paste.

It is what it is.
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#417 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:56 PM

Isn't that what your profession as a lawyer is all about?

Nope.
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#418 prana16

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:03 PM

It is what it is.


It could be two things.

Yes if you post a link on this forum that leads to the name directly or indirectly then it would contravene the law on publication.


1) The above quote from you is not correct. Merely posting a link that lead directly or indirectly to the name would NOT contravene the law.

OR

2) The above statement is correct. Your posting lead me to the name therefore you have contravened the law, ACCORDING TO YOU.

You have either done exactly what you are saying others have or you were just wrong in the original statement. Which one would you like?

Edited by prana16, 14 May 2011 - 06:04 PM.

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#419 Wetcoaster

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:12 PM

It could be two things.



1) The above quote from you is not correct. Merely posting a link that lead directly or indirectly to the name would NOT contravene the law.

OR

2) The above statement is correct. Your posting lead me to the name therefore you have contravened the law, ACCORDING TO YOU.

You have either done exactly what you are saying others have or you were just wrong in the original statement. Which one would you like?

Neither applies.
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Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done and why. Then do it.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#420 Buggernut

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 06:34 PM

It could be two things.



1) The above quote from you is not correct. Merely posting a link that lead directly or indirectly to the name would NOT contravene the law.

OR

2) The above statement is correct. Your posting lead me to the name therefore you have contravened the law, ACCORDING TO YOU.

You have either done exactly what you are saying others have or you were just wrong in the original statement. Which one would you like?

In fairness to Wetcoaster, I think the fact that the media has already released Szendrei's name makes that much info public knowledge.

Really, though, we need to stand up for our free speech rights like the Americans do, with a constitution to back us up. We just take authority lying down too much in this country. We need to be more the vigilant rightsoholics like they are.
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