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Key Anti-Prostitution Laws Struck Down By Ontario Court


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#31 taxi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:00 PM

Who's to say no whore-house would hire a crack addict? I mean obviously no high class place is going to higher them but like all things in life there are people who can afford different price levels. Why can't there be mid and lower level houses to cater to all ranges of incomes?


Every business needs reliable employees, even brothels. You are talking about women who disappear for weeks at a time on drug fueled benders and are often totally unpresentable. The worst are totally unpresentable. Why would anyone want an employee like that?

The best way to help these women is to help them with their mental health/drug/psychological trauma problems. Encouraging pimps to traffic sex slaves is not going to help them in any way.
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#32 Perfect From Now On

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:14 PM

prostitution isn't going anywhere and has been around for a looong time, might as while make it as safe as possible for the women involved.

Edited by Audiophile, 29 September 2010 - 02:15 PM.

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#33 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:21 PM

Legally there is nothing stopping women on the DTES from organizing already. Non-profit agencies are fully able to organize women in any way they want. Do you really think that legalized pimps and whore houses would really have these women's best interests in mind.

Since legalizing prostitution, Amsteram has become the world's #1 destination for human trafficking:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6497799.stm


Not only that, the red light district has attracted massive amounts of organized crime. So much so that the Netherlands is now scaling back on brothel and "window" permits on a massive scale:

http://www.timesonli....cle5400641.ece

With the USA next door, which is never likely to legalize prostitution, Canada would become a sex tourist destination. We'd end up with brothels filled with traficked sex slave workers and the women in the DTES would still be on the street. It's not working in Amsterdam. Why would it work here?



That's the problem with the courts tossing out our laws, it leaves us wide open to even greater problems because the long term effects aren't thought out. I can see them telling parliment to make up their minds instead of the passive aggressive way that keeps it legal but dangerous but in effect the becomes a knee jerk reaction who's consequences might be more dire than the one's they are supposedly fixing.
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#34 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:23 PM

prostitution isn't going anywhere and has been around for a looong time, might as while make it as safe as possible for the women involved.


The question is does legalising it actually do that? If it's legal it's not unreasonable to expect the demand to surge which recent history shows will result in an increase in supply, often in some very disturbing ways.
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#35 taxi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:33 PM

That's the problem with the courts tossing out our laws, it leaves us wide open to even greater problems because the long term effects aren't thought out. I can see them telling parliment to make up their minds instead of the passive aggressive way that keeps it legal but dangerous but in effect the becomes a knee jerk reaction who's consequences might be more dire than the one's they are supposedly fixing.


I wouldn't be opposed to chainging the laws. However, I have trouble seeing how you could be more lax on pimps and brothels without encouraging organized crime and human trafickers to step in.

Maybe no pimps but licenses and STD testing instead? Maybe that protects the consumer more than the women though.
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#36 Dellins

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:41 PM

It's not working in Amsterdam. Why would it work here?

Please explain, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering what is happening there that is preventing it from working.
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#37 Perfect From Now On

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:58 PM

The question is does legalising it actually do that? If it's legal it's not unreasonable to expect the demand to surge which recent history shows will result in an increase in supply, often in some very disturbing ways.


that's a valid point and I would be interested to see how the legalization of prostitution in The Netherlands effected local demand. However there is no argument that demand would increase as a result of sex tourism. I do believe though that legalization and regulation would greatly benefit the women involved by protecting them from abusive clients, and eliminating violent and abusive pimps. I also think that this would make it a more legitimate profession and would likely reduce the level of human trafficking associated with the sex industry because the safer and more legitimate working environment might increase the supply of voluntary sex workers.
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#38 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:07 PM

I wouldn't be opposed to chainging the laws. However, I have trouble seeing how you could be more lax on pimps and brothels without encouraging organized crime and human trafickers to step in.

Maybe no pimps but licenses and STD testing instead? Maybe that protects the consumer more than the women though.



Ya, funny thing about that organised crime, they will step in to fill the demand regardless of the law.

And call me crazy, but a beaurocracy rarely helps in a social situation. What happens to a women in the industry that gets an STD? State paid retirement, or simply work on the street due to not being able to get a licence.

I am not opposed to changing the laws either I just think that it's not as simple as "legalise and all is well". No more than "make it illegal and all is well". There's challenges to be had regardless of the model being employed.
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#39 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:14 PM

that's a valid point and I would be interested to see how the legalization of prostitution in The Netherlands effected local demand. However there is no argument that demand would increase as a result of sex tourism. I do believe though that legalization and regulation would greatly benefit the women involved by protecting them from abusive clients, and eliminating violent and abusive pimps. I also think that this would make it a more legitimate profession and would likely reduce the level of human trafficking associated with the sex industry because the safer and more legitimate working environment might increase the supply of voluntary sex workers.



Regardless if it's legal or illegal, I would say that violence should be a higher priority for cops and the courts than busting street workers and that there should be no recourse for admitting that the violence incurred happened as part of that profession.

Sort of like in some places they don't care if you were dealing drugs and as a result you were a witness in a murder. Much like they would say "we're not the drug police" they should also say "we're not the solicitation police either" when it comes to violence.
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#40 taxi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:37 PM

Please explain, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering what is happening there that is preventing it from working.


As I previously stated, it's resulted in a massive surge in organized crime and human traficking. The brothels there aren't filled with former street workers, they are filled with enslaved women from all over the world. Amsterdam has recently taken several steps to dramatically cut back on brothel licenses and the sex industry in general.
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#41 The Situation

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:59 PM

I wouldn't be opposed to chainging the laws. However, I have trouble seeing how you could be more lax on pimps and brothels without encouraging organized crime and human trafickers to step in.

Maybe no pimps but licenses and STD testing instead? Maybe that protects the consumer more than the women though.



Well if sex trade workers became just like any other workers, they could enter the country relatively easily on worker's visas. That would really hurt human traffickers. There are probably still traffickers trafficking in maids and other workers but since it is also legal, there isn't a whole lot of it compared to sex trade workers.

It is still protecting people and that is what the government should care about. Lower STD rates would also benefit the healthcare system.
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#42 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:01 PM

Well if sex trade workers became just like any other workers, they could enter the country relatively easily on worker's visas. That would really hurt human traffickers. There are probably still traffickers trafficking in maids and other workers but since it is also legal, there isn't a whole lot of it compared to sex trade workers.

It is still protecting people and that is what the government should care about. Lower STD rates would also benefit the healthcare system.



I seriously doubt legalising it would lower STB rates. The risk of tranmission would be lower, but you would be upping the number of times the dice get thrown. It's not a surefire bet either way.
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#43 The Situation

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:06 PM

I seriously doubt legalising it would lower STB rates. The risk of tranmission would be lower, but you would be upping the number of times the dice get thrown. It's not a surefire bet either way.


I am going under the assumption that it would still be happening nearly as much but now with regulations. It is hard to say though how many more people would be seeing sex trade workers if it were legalized.
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#44 taxi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:13 PM

Well if sex trade workers became just like any other workers, they could enter the country relatively easily on worker's visas. That would really hurt human traffickers. There are probably still traffickers trafficking in maids and other workers but since it is also legal, there isn't a whole lot of it compared to sex trade workers.

It is still protecting people and that is what the government should care about. Lower STD rates would also benefit the healthcare system.


Unfortunately that's not even close to the way the sex trade works. The majority of female sex trade workers are coerced into the sex trade by one means or another. Very few women choose to become prostitutes. The proportion who willingly choose to become prostitutes outside of North America is probably almost zero.

The Visa system would not deal with the issue of organized crime trying to profit on the situation. Not to mention you can make a lot more money pimping out a sex worker than you can a maid.
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#45 taxi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:15 PM

I am going under the assumption that it would still be happening nearly as much but now with regulations. It is hard to say though how many more people would be seeing sex trade workers if it were legalized.



Many more, probably mostly tourists from the US.
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#46 The Situation

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:15 PM

Unfortunately that's not even close to the way the sex trade works. The majority of female sex trade workers are coerced into the sex trade by one means or another. Very few women choose to become prostitutes. The proportion who willingly choose to become prostitutes outside of North America is probably almost zero.

The Visa system would not deal with the issue of organized crime trying to profit on the situation. Not to mention you can make a lot more money pimping out a sex worker than you can a maid.



Can you show me some statistics? I am not saying you are wrong or anything but I haven't seen any solid statistics anywhere.
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#47 taxi

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:39 PM

Can you show me some statistics? I am not saying you are wrong or anything but I haven't seen any solid statistics anywhere.


Admittedly I was using my own common sense to come up with those numbers. Those statistics won't exist as many prostitutes will never go to police or are afraid to speak out against pimps.

For other examples of failed protustition legalization look at:

http://en.wikipedia....ution_in_Mexico

It's legal in Germany too. They have similar problems with human traficking:

http://en.wikipedia....n_Germany#Crime

Honestly, there is no way to tell if legalizing prostitution in Canada would have a net positive or negative effect until it is actually done. IMO with the USA right next store and the difficulties surrounding rehabilitation of street people, the effects would do more harm than good.
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#48 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:45 PM

Can you show me some statistics? I am not saying you are wrong or anything but I haven't seen any solid statistics anywhere.



Why on earth do you need statistics to show you that perhaps selling one's body isn't a career choice one picks on purpose?!? :shock:
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#49 Wetcoaster

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:12 PM

The federal government is filing an appeal and is supported by the Liberal government of Ontario.

This appeal is in keeping with the 1990 Supreme Court of Canada decision referenced above cited as Reference re ss. 193 & 195.1(1)(c ) of Criminal Code (Canada), (the Prostitution Reference), [1990] 1 S.C.R. 1123 is a leading decision of the Supreme Court of Canada on the right to freedom of expression under section 2(b) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and on prostitution in Canada. The Court held that the criminal code provision that prohibited communication for the purpose of engaging in prostitution was in violation of the right to freedom of expression however it could be justified under section 1 of the Charter and so it was upheld.

The majority found that the purpose of eliminating prostitution was a valid goal and that the provision was rationally connected and proportional to that goal. Accordingly, the provision was upheld.
http://scc.lexum.umo...0scr1-1123.html

The appeal would be in keeping with long-standing federal government policy - both Conservative and Liberal.

Two years ago, Nicholson flatly rejected a majority recommendation from the House of Commons status of women committee that federal prostitution laws be amended to stop charging prostitutes and start prosecuting only those procuring sex, or exploiting prostitutes, such as pimps and bawdy house owners.

"We have no intention of changing any of the laws relating to prostitution in this country," Nicholson told the committee during hearings.

"We have laws with respect to street soliciting or soliciting in public places that criminalizes completely the activity the individual that is trying to purchase that service and the individual that is offering it. And (those) will continue to be the laws of this country."

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Feds+appeal+Ontario+prostitution+ruling/3597411/story.html#ixzz10xyxsLUf

As CBC reports:

The federal Conservatives will appeal an Ontario court ruling that struck down key parts of Canada's prostitution laws, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson said Wednesday.

"Prostitution is a problem that harms individuals," Nicholson said in question period. "[The government] will appeal and seek a stay of that decision."

Tuesday's ruling by the Ontario Superior Court said laws against keeping a common bawdy house, communicating for the purposes of prostitution and living on the avails of the sex trade put sex workers in danger.

But NDP MP Libby Davis, a longtime advocate of sex trade workers, questioned why the government would waste money on a costly and lengthy appeal money it could spend instead on helping affected communities.

She said the laws that were struck down don't protect society and are harmful to communities.

Earlier Wednesday, Nicholson's parliamentary secretary, Bob Dechert, told the CBC's Susan Lunn that anyone who thinks women involved in the sex trade "are not victims is very mistaken."

"There's a lot of victims in that industry and we need to protect them."

He also stressed that the ruling was the decision of one court only and should be tested in other courts.

The Superior Court judgment is subject to a 30-day stay during which the law remains in place, and the federal government can seek an extension of the stay period.

Ontario supports appeal

Nicholson had signalled Tuesday night that the Conservatives were considering an appeal, saying Ottawa would "fight to ensure that the criminal law continues to address the significant harms that flow from prostitution to both communities and the prostitutes themselves."

The government has argued that striking down the provisions of the prostitution laws without enacting something else in their place would "pose a danger to the public."

Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty said Wednesday his government "looks forward" to supporting the Conservatives in an appeal. He said the ruling proposes some profound changes to laws that have been on the books for decades.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/09/29/mcguinty-prostitution.html#ixzz10xvlAyZ8
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#50 The Situation

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:18 PM

Why on earth do you need statistics to show you that perhaps selling one's body isn't a career choice one picks on purpose?!? :shock:


Maybe some people don't have the same views on sex. Perhaps they enjoy the pleasure and don't consider it to be immoral what they are doing.
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#51 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:26 PM

Maybe some people don't have the same views on sex. Perhaps they enjoy the pleasure and don't consider it to be immoral what they are doing.



Ya, maybe a small minority in the industry. Don't kid yourself. Would you want to do that?
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#52 The Situation

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:29 PM

Ya, maybe a small minority in the industry. Don't kid yourself. Would you want to do that?


No but I have found that are a large range of views on everything including sex. To some people, it is probably no different than selling your body with a backbreaking job.
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#53 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:36 PM

No but I have found that are a large range of views on everything including sex. To some people, it is probably no different than selling your body with a backbreaking job.



I guarantee they are in the minority. Or at least they started out that way and maybe feel that way out of necessity.
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#54 Buggernut

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:37 PM

Ya, maybe a small minority in the industry. Don't kid yourself. Would you want to do that?

Would you want to scrub toilets or take out everybody's garbage either?

May they be left to weigh the pros against the cons of their profession, like any other.

Edited by Buggernut, 29 September 2010 - 05:38 PM.

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#55 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:39 PM

The federal government is filing an appeal and is supported by the Liberal government of Ontario.

This appeal is in keeping with the 1990 Supreme Court of Canada decision referenced above cited as Reference re ss. 193 & 195.1(1)(c ) of Criminal Code (Canada), (the Prostitution Reference), [1990] 1 S.C.R. 1123 is a leading decision of the Supreme Court of Canada on the right to freedom of expression under section 2(B) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and on prostitution in Canada. The Court held that the criminal code provision that prohibited communication for the purpose of engaging in prostitution was in violation of the right to freedom of expression however it could be justified under section 1 of the Charter and so it was upheld.

The majority found that the purpose of eliminating prostitution was a valid goal and that the provision was rationally connected and proportional to that goal. Accordingly, the provision was upheld.
http://scc.lexum.umo...0scr1-1123.html

The appeal would be in keeping with long-standing federal government policy - both Conservative and Liberal.

http://www.vancouver...l#ixzz10xyxsLUf

As CBC reports:

http://www.cbc.ca/ca...l#ixzz10xvlAyZ8


I can see why there might be an issue with the whole baudy house and advertising thing as it forces them underground but it seems odd that living off the avails was eliminated. If anything living off the avails is a crime that if eliminated would certainly increase the number of pimps out there and INCREASE danger and explotation. If anything it's the one status quo rule that increases safety.
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#56 Buggernut

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:41 PM

Why do women have to be protected from themselves and their own decisions anyways?

We're perfectly content to let men live with the consequences of their own actions.
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#57 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:43 PM

Would you want to scrub toilets or take out everybody's garbage either?

May they be left to weigh the pros against the cons of their profession, like any other.



Um, I don't know about you, but I would rather scub toilets and handle the trash then take it up the you know what......

Weigh the pros and cons?

Con: Taking it up the you know what. Freezing on a street corner. Risk of violence and disease. Personal space reduced to zero. Being reduced to a commodity.

Pro: Some extra cash to get high on.

I sincerely doubt that more than a handfull decide rationally to get into it. More often than not it will be a case of being forced into it through some sort of desperation/addiction/explotation. Don't kid yourself, it's not pretty women, it's turning people into a disposable commodity.
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#58 Buggernut

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:46 PM

Um, I don't know about you, but I would rather scub toilets and handle the trash then take it up the you know what......

Weigh the pros and cons?

Con: Taking it up the you know what. Freezing on a street corner. Risk of violence and disease. Personal space reduced to zero. Being reduced to a commodity.

Pro: Some extra cash to get high on.

I sincerely doubt that more than a handfull decide rationally to get into it. More often than not it will be a case of being forced into it through some sort of desperation/addiction/explotation. Don't kid yourself, it's not pretty women, it's turning people into a disposable commodity.

They've yet decided that it's worth the money they get from it, or else they wouldn't be doing it.
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#59 ronthecivil

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:46 PM

Why do women have to be protected from themselves and their own decisions anyways?

We're perfectly content to let men live with the consequences of their own actions.



There's male prostitutes too....

Oh, and you help them because even though they made some bad decisions the explotation created is not something anyone reasonable should have to suffer through.
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#60 The Situation

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 05:47 PM

Um, I don't know about you, but I would rather scub toilets and handle the trash then take it up the you know what......

Weigh the pros and cons?

Con: Taking it up the you know what. Freezing on a street corner. Risk of violence and disease. Personal space reduced to zero. Being reduced to a commodity.

Pro: Some extra cash to get high on.

I sincerely doubt that more than a handfull decide rationally to get into it. More often than not it will be a case of being forced into it through some sort of desperation/addiction/explotation. Don't kid yourself, it's not pretty women, it's turning people into a disposable commodity.


What about those that operate as call girls?

Being reduced to a commodity is something that can be felt from workers in any job.
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