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Khadr Sentenced To 40 Years By Military Tribunal


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#1 GarthButcher

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:40 PM

Well, Khadr has agreed to a plea deal. Apparently if it works out he'll get 1 more year at Gitmo, and 7 years in a Cdn prison.

I'd say that it's a complete disgrace how this guy has been treated. Sure, his family hurt him a lot with their CBC interview, but he's the only westerner in Gitmo whose gov't hasn't stood-up for them.

The terms of the sentence are quite low as well considering the charges. My take on it is:

The US wanted to bury the story of holding a child soldier for 8 years without trial, torturing confessions out of him, and then trying him as a war criminal for fighting back when the compound he was in was invaded by US troops.

They seemed to really want to avoid going to trial, and finally sweetened the deal enough for Khadr to take a plea just to get out of Gitmo and come home.

What a joke from Obama's kangaroo court.

Any thoughts?

By the way, sorry for the horrid pun in the title. It was the name of a CBC report on the whole thing.

http://www.cbc.ca/wo...al-resumes.html
The Canadian government has agreed to Omar Khadr's plea deal that allows him to return to Canada to serve the rest of his sentence after spending a maximum of one year in prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, his lawyer says.

The Toronto-born Khadr pleaded guilty Monday to the five charges against him, including murder and supporting terrorism in Afghanistan, as part of a plea agreement with prosecutors at the U.S. military commission at Guantanamo Bay.

Khadr's Canadian lawyer, Dennis Edney, said Khadr will serve no more than eight years in prison as part of the plea deal and then be subject to parole board conditions upon his release.

Edney, in a phone interview with the CBC from Guantanamo Bay, labelled the plea deal "a piece of paper" and said his client "would have confessed to anything, including the killing of John F. Kennedy, just to get out of this hellhole."

"Had Omar refused, then he was faced with an unfair trial based on evidence that would be inadmissible in a real court and the potential of life in prison in Guantanamo Bay," Edney said.

"We supported this decision, and we would have done the same thing with his position."

Sentencing expected Tuesday

Military judge Col. Patrick Parrish accepted Khadr's pleas and told him he will be eligible to apply for transfer to a Canadian prison after serving one year of his sentence in the United States.

In response to the plea agreement, Prime Minister Stephen Harper's spokesman, Dimitri Soudas, would only say the case is a "matter between Mr. Khadr and the U.S. government."

The comment echoed exactly that of a spokesperson for Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon.

"We have no further comment," Catherine Loubier, Cannon's director of communications, added in an email.

The 24-year-old Khadr is expected to be sentenced Tuesday by a jury of seven military officers.

In a sketch by courtroom artist Janet Hamlin, reviewed by a U.S. Department of Defence official, U.S. Air Force Capt Michael Grant swears in Omar Khadr, right, on Monday in Guantanamo Bay. (Janet Hamlin/Associated Press)
Chief prosecutor Capt. John Murphy welcomed the plea, saying "it removes any doubt from what happened."

"Omar Khadr stands convicted of being a murderer and also of being an al-Qaeda terrorist," Murphy told reporters. "And the evidence did not come from a contested trial. It came from a source that the law recognizes as the most powerful evidence known from the law, and that is his own words."

Parrish said details of the plea deal would not be released until jurors have had a chance to review them.

Khadr had earlier maintained he would never confess to throwing the grenade that killed a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan in July 2002. U.S. officials allege he did so after an attack by U.S. forces on a suspected al-Qaeda compound. Sgt. Christopher Speer was killed and another soldier was wounded.

Shortly after 9 a.m. ET on Monday, Khadr withdrew his previous pleas of not guilty to the charges, including murder in violation of the laws of war, attempted murder in violation of the laws of war, conspiracy, providing material support to terrorists and spying.

Parrish asked Khadr if anyone had forced him to change his pleas, to which Khadr answered: "No."

Parrish then questioned Khadr about each of the charges against him. Asked if he had killed Speer in 2002, Khadr answered, quietly, "Yes." When asked if it was true that he conspired with Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda, he also answered "Yes."

Khadr 'abandoned': NDP's Harris

U.S. Navy Capt. John Murphy, chief prosecutor for the military commissions, speaks to media after Canadian Omar Khadr pleaded guilty to war crimes at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, on Monday. (Colin Perkel/Canadian Press)
His defence and opposition politicians in Canada have argued Khadr was a child at the time of the killing and should be treated according to international law, which provides that child soldiers be rehabilitated, not punished.

NDP defence critic Jack Harris said the Canadian government's response to Khadr's case was "totally inadequate" and goes against human rights and international law because he was a child soldier.

Canada, he told reporters outside the House of Commons, is the "only country in the world who abandoned" a citizen in Guantanamo Bay.

NDP Leader Jack Layton told CBC's Power & Politics with Evan Solomon, "This government doesn't seem to pay any attention to those issues. We think that's unfortunate and wrong. No wonder the world is looking askance at Canada on the international stage, such as we saw with the UN vote." (He was referring to Canada's failure to win a seat on the UN Security Council earlier this month.)

Murphy, however, said Monday's pleas put to rest "the long-standing argument by some that Khadr is a victim.

"Omar Khadr is not a victim. He's not a child soldier. He's not someone whose conviction is not the product of any abuse. He's a murderer," Murphy said.

The federal government has refused to intervene on Khadr's behalf to have him removed from Guantanamo Bay and returned to Canada. Khadr has been held at the high-security U.S. detention facility since 2002, and is the only Westerner still incarcerated there.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/wo...l#ixzz13Pdt3NuR

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#2 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:45 PM

His abandonment by this government and country has been disgusting. I hope he sues.

Wetcoaster, if you're around, tell me...can he appeal his 7 year prison sentence upon return? Can he sue to get a new trial? Or something along these lines?

Edited by Sharpshooter, 25 October 2010 - 03:47 PM.

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#3 ahzdeen

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:47 PM

His abandonment by this government and country has been disgusting. I hope he sues.

Wouldn't be unlikely that he would win seeing that he plead guilty to war crimes?
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#4 Dittohead

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:48 PM

Omar Khadr is not a victim. He's not a child soldier. He's not someone whose conviction is not the product of any abuse. He's a murderer," Murphy said.
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#5 inane

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:51 PM

8 years and no trial... yeah america. freedom tastes so good.
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#6 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 03:59 PM

I posted on this previously. Former Canadian General (now Senator) Romeo Dallaire who actually knows something of this and is not some ideological idiot politician said this:

Canada has sunk to the moral equivalent of al-Qaeda by failing to treat Canadian Omar Khadr the same way it treats other child soldiers, Liberal Senator Roméo Dallaire said Tuesday.

Dallaire, who appeared before a foreign affairs committee on international human rights, said Khadr is clearly a child soldier who shouldn't be prosecuted by an illegal court system at Guantanamo Bay but reintegrated into society.

Canada is heading down a slippery slope by failing to obey the United Nations conventions on child soldiers to which it is a signatory, he said.

"The minute you start playing with human rights, with conventions, with civil liberties in order to say you are doing it to protect yourself … you are no better than the guy who doesn't believe in them at all," he said.

"We are slipping down the slope of going down that same route."
...
"If you want a black and white [response] … I am only too prepared to give it to you: absolutely," said Dallaire. "You are either with the law or you are against the law. You're either a child soldier or you're not. You're either guilty or you're not."

Canada must be ready to deal with similar situations in the future, Dallaire said.

"If you think this is the last one, then we're really smoking dope because in this era, we're going to face similar scenarios and we've got to be prepared in this multi-ethnic country to handle it," he said.

Canada must protect all of its citizens, "whether we like them and their beliefs or not. That is irrelevant," he said.

Dallaire said Canadian soldiers have helped rehabilitate more than 7,000 child soldiers in Afghanistan. None of them have been prosecuted, he said.

"What is the political reason? What makes [Khadr] different from the others?" said Dallaire.

Dallaire said Khadr is being tried under an illegal judicial system at Guantanamo Bay, the U.S. prison on the eastern tip of Cuba.

"The thing is flawed, it is illegal and we're letting it happen," he said.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/05/13/dallaire-khadr.html

There was great line by Bob Rae commenting upon the federal government's continuing refusal to request the repatriation of Khadr (as has been done with every other detainee who was citizen of a Western democracy years ago) and continue to rely upon the excuse that there is an on-going US legal process:

"They've been in denial for so long," he said. "It's like a Monty Python sketch: This is a dead tribunal."


Khadr's military defence lawyer, Lt. Cmdr. William Kuebler, summed up the case this way:

"This young man's ordeal has gone on long enough and the U. S. can begin restoring its reputation by following international law requiring former child soldiers such as Omar to be treated as victims entitled to opportunities for rehabilitation and social reintegration, rather than as adult war criminals."

The Bush Administration simply ignored international law and changed the rules and the canadian governemnt just meekly allowed it to happen. They were hammered by the US Supreme Court so they just go back and re-write the rules again and again hoping to finally get it right. The term "Kangaroo Court" describes this process to a T.
http://www.iht.com/a...NAMO-TRIALS.php

As well as being a clear violation of the "child soldier" definition the Bush Administration has condoned coercion and torture to obtain evidence - something that would never be tolerated in a normal court setting - even a normal military tribunal. That is why they have tried to keep the proceedings in Gitmo.

The major problems I have are three fold:
  • The US executive branch has been told time and again that their military tribunal system is unlawful by their own courts
  • Khadr is a child soldier and should not be subject to such proceedings even if they were lawful - Canada has signed on internationally on that one.
  • Britain and Australia all demanded that their citizens be returned from Guantanamo Bay, even adults - and they were.

The western legal system quite properly rejects involuntary confessions as they are not only unconstitutional they are also unreliable.

Here is the classic definition of an involuntary confession:

An admission, especially by an individual who has been accused of a crime, that is not freely offered but rather is precipitated by a threat, fear, torture, or a promise.

The US military prosecutors have pulled a witness who would have shed light on Khadr's treatment. Khadr (then 15) was held incommunicado for two years with no access to counsel, family or Canadian Embassy personnel - the latter another entitlement under international law:

The American government has withdrawn a witness against Omar Khadr in an effort to hide evidence of its mistreatment of the Canadian during his detention at Guantanamo Bay, his Pentagon-appointed lawyer says.

The special agent had been slated to testify at Mr. Khadr's war-crimes trial next month about a self-incriminating statement the prisoner gave in December 2004.

Mr. Khadr's legal team maintains the statement was coerced and wanted to question the U.S. Defence Department agent about the statement.

Lt.-Cmdr. Bill Kuebler, who is defending Mr. Khadr before a military commission, said the government is trying to cut off defence probing of his abuse by U.S. authorities.

“It's a shocking concession by the government that effectively (says) the things that Omar relates about his mistreatment in 2003 and 2004 are true, otherwise they wouldn't be seeking to side-step the issue by withdrawing this witness,” Lt.-Cmdr. Kuebler said from Washington.

“It corroborates or confirms that . . . this kid was absolutely traumatized and mistreated by U.S. government authorities and now the U.S. government is trying to continue to cover that up.”

Marine Maj. Jeff Groharing, who is prosecuting Mr. Khadr, confirmed the withdrawal of the witness but did not offer an explanation.

Mr. Khadr was held at the infamous Bagram prison following his capture in Afghanistan in July 2002 at the age of 15, before being shipped to Guantanamo Bay.

In questioning by intelligence agents during his detention, Mr. Khadr related details of the firefight that left him badly injured and an American soldier dead.

He made several incriminating statements, which he disavowed in February 2003, when he was finally allowed to talk to Canadian officials.

Mr. Khadr, now 22, claims in an affidavit that his recantation sparked reprisals from his captors, including sleep deprivation, being held in stress positions and kept in isolation.

His lawyers argue their client was clearly afraid of what would happen if he didn't say what his interrogators wanted him to say — hence the incriminating statement in December 2004.

“A key 2004 statement allegedly taken from Mr. Khadr as much as acknowledges that an inculpatory statement had to be dragged out of him,” their legal submissions state.

“Mr. Khadr expressed fear of retribution for his initial unwillingness to say what the agents wanted to hear, expressing his hope that his ‘other interrogator would not be mad at him' for initially failing to confess.”

The defence had planned to make Mr. Khadr's treatment during his entire captivity from July 2002 until December 2004 an issue in his trial but corroborating documentation related to the earlier time frame has been lost.

“Evidence is out there to suggest that the reason we don't have (earlier) materials . . . is that the government was in the process of systematically destroying such information to prevent its use in legal proceedings,” Lt.-Cmdr. Kuebler said.


Here is what Khadr's prior military lawyer had to say about the manner in which Khadr was treated - as a "mop" amongst other things. Measure this against what would constitute an involuntary confession under normal legal processes:

Omar Khadr may be a cold-blooded killer who trained with al-Qaida before throwing a grenade at a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan six years ago. Or he may be a harmless Toronto teenager with an affinity for Harry Potter.

Whichever he is, he didn't deserve to be treated like a "human mop" while being interrogated at Guantanamo Bay, said Colby Vokey, who was once Khadr's lead attorney before leaving the Marines this year to return home and join a prestigious Dallas law firm.

The retired lieutenant colonel has a reputation for outspokenness -- whether his client is an alleged teenage terrorist or a Marine accused of killing Iraqi civilians.

For instance, Vokey said the Guantanamo Bay legal system "is horrific ... a complete sham."

His complaints about Guantanamo -- which the military disputes -- underscore a searing debate on the prosecution of enemy combatants, especially when prosecutions turn on whether information is obtained through torture or coercion.

"Military critic" on everything from the administration of justice at Guantanamo Bay to the politicization of the war and treatment of veterans, is an unexpected label for the ardent Texas Aggie turned gung-ho Marine.

But Vokey, 43, who voted for President George W. Bush, said, "I don't think being a flag waver and being a big advocate for a good justice system are necessarily contradictory.

"I took an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States," he said. "I take that pretty seriously."

The accusations against Khadr are bad, said Vokey, who was appointed in 2005 to defend him. But "we're really talking about the heart of what the Constitution says: Everyone is due a fair trial. Period."


Khadr is the son of a prominent al-Qaida supporter, who has since been killed. Though born in Canada, Khadr traveled frequently to Afghanistan and Pakistan. He was 15 when captured after the firefight.

Standing in his cramped office, bare of mementos he has yet to unpack, Vokey demonstrated how Khadr claims he was interrogated by U.S. authorities at Guantanamo.

His hands were shackled behind his back to his feet and the floor, Vokey said, forcing him to bend down awkwardly. A strobe light flashed on and off, and loud music blared nonstop. As Khadr crouched there for hours, he fell over every once in a while.

"They would come in, back into the room, and set him on his feet," Vokey said. "And he would fall down."

Eventually Khadr urinated on himself. Personnel came in, squirted cleanser on the floor, "then they grabbed Omar like a human mop and they mopped up the Pine-Sol and urine with Omar. And then they left him there and he was in these clothes for days."

At speaking engagements, Vokey asks his audience: "Was that torture or coercion?"

"I don't really care what you call it," he said, answering his own question. "But what I do know is any statement you take after you've done that to someone should never be used in anything you want to call a real trial."

Vokey also said that he sometimes was prevented from showing evidence to his client, that his confidential notes were read by guards, and that Khadr probably would not be prosecuted in other countries because he was a juvenile.


This week, it was reported that prosecutors were withdrawing a witness who would have testified that Khadr made a self-incriminating statement during a December 2004 interrogation.


So not only does it do total violation to the concept of a fair trial, Volkey sees a very serious consequence of what the US military are doing:

A fair trial is critical, Vokey said, not just for Khadr, but for Americans.

"I don't want our Marines and soldiers going through the same thing when another country captures us," he said. "If we set aside all the international law, set aside our Constitution, make up crazy rules, use unlawful, coercive interrogation techniques and then try these guys in a sham trial system, then what are we going to expect when our guys get captured?"

http://www.cleveland...canadian_t.html

This was just more classic Bush Administration bullying and "You do what we say, do not do what we do." The arrogance (and stupidity) of such a position is overwhelming.

Once Khadr is back in Canada I would expect his legal counsel to attack the foundation of the illegal tribunal process in the US and try to get the guilty plea thrown out.

Khadr's U.S. military lawyer made sure it was entered into the court record during Khadr's hearing Monday that Canadian law will govern the plea deal if and when Khadr is transferred.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/canada/Khadr+right+apply+repatriation+Toews/3724180/story.html#ixzz13PkYfhNN
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#7 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:08 PM

Wouldn't be unlikely that he would win seeing that he plead guilty to war crimes?


But, it pleading guilty under extenuating circumstances, has to account for something.

It's like those hikers who were picked up by Iran, while in Iraq. They all plead guilty even when they weren't.
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#8 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:18 PM

Is it still legal to shoot child soldier in battle?
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#9 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:23 PM

Wouldn't be unlikely that he would win seeing that he plead guilty to war crimes?

I would assume that the case would challenge the basis and jurisdiction over Khadr that led to the guilty pleas.

Pretty clearly he is a child soldier and the military tribunal pretty much trampled all over his rights. There were serious questions about torture, coercion and the ability of the tribunal to block exculpatory evidence - all of which would go to issues of fundamental justice.

None of this would even come remotely close to passing muster in a real court. Fog of war, friendly fire.... those are the likely defences that would have been used. One of the bases for challenging the process would be his inability to make full answer and defence which is fundamental to any proceeding in Canada.

Omar Khadr could not have possibly thrown the grenade that killed a U.S. soldier during a 2002 firefight because he was buried under the rubble of a collapsed roof, his lawyer argued in court yesterday, pointing to photos from the firefight that show Mr. Khadr under so much debris that a U.S. soldier inadvertently stepped on him.

But Colonel Patrick Parrish, the judge in Mr. Khadr's Guantanamo Bay military commissions hearing, banned Lieutenant-Commander Bill Kuebler from showing the photos in court, meaning the public did not get to see them.

"I don't want things shown that may not be admitted [as evidence]," Col. Parrish told a clearly exasperated Cdr. Kuebler, who tried for several minutes to change the judge's mind.

Asked afterward why the judge didn't allow him to show the photos, Cdr. Kuebler told reporters: "Because they show he's innocent."

In a rare occurrence, the chief and deputy chief of the defence staff at Guantanamo joined Cdr. Kuebler at a press conference after the court session to blast the judge's decision.


Mr. Khadr, the only Canadian citizen and Westerner detained in Guantanamo Bay, is facing several charges before a military commissions court here. The most serious is that he killed a U.S. soldier during a 2002 Afghanistan firefight. Mr. Khadr was 15 at the time, and is 22 now.

The U.S. government alleges Mr. Khadr threw a grenade during the fight that killed the soldier. A U.S. soldier present during the firefight previously testified that he saw Mr. Khadr sitting upright, facing away from him in such a position that he could have thrown the grenade over his shoulder. The soldier then shot Mr. Khadr twice in the back.

Asked how a soldier could shoot Mr. Khadr in the back if the Canadian was buried under rubble, Cdr. Kuebler could not say with certainty. He offered a number of possible explanations: that some of the bullets fired at other militants in the compound could ricochet through the rubble or that the soldier uncovered Mr. Khadr and then shot him twice while he lay there. Cdr. Kuebler was careful not to commit to either scenario.

Cdr. Kuebler argued in court yesterday afternoon for the production of a witness - "Soldier No. 2" - who the lawyer said will present a different account of events than the one given so far, in which Mr. Khadr is found not sitting up, but buried under the rubble of a recently collapsed roof . (The U.S. military bombed the compound Mr. Khadr was staying in before the soldiers moved in.)

"Soldier No. 2 will establish the [other version of events] is false," Cdr. Kuebler told the court.

The defence lawyer had planned to show to the entire court, which included myriad reporters and other observers, photos that he believes support this account, including one where Mr. Khadr is clearly buried beneath the rubble.

http://www.theglobea...tional/America/

A report provided by a U.S. soldier casts doubt once more on the Pentagon's assertion that Canadian captive Omar Khadr threw a grenade that killed an American soldier.

A military court was told for the first time yesterday that Khadr, then 15, was buried under rubble from a collapsed roof before he was captured, which would suggest he could not have thrown the grenade.

A witness identified as Soldier No. 2 was said to have accidentally stepped on Khadr because he did not see him under the rubble.

The soldier "thought he was standing on a `trap door' because the ground did not seem solid," stated a motion submitted by Khadr's defence lawyers.

He then "bent down to move the brush away to see what was beneath him and discovered that he was standing on a person; and that Mr. Khadr appeared to be `acting dead,'" the motion continued.

That new version of what happened in Afghanistan on July 27, 2002, conflicts with reports from other soldiers who said Khadr was sitting up and conscious when he was shot twice in the back.

http://www.thestar.com/SpecialSections/Oma.../article/553305
It is huge black mark against the Harper government that unlike all other western countries including Great Britain and Australia, their citizens were all removed from Gitmo and returned to their home country... and none of those returnees were child soldiers.

Here is how the American Civil Liberties Union viewed these proceedings:

Friday, December 12, 2008 : GUANTÁNAMO BAY, Cuba – The American Civil Liberties Union is at Guantánamo monitoring the military commission hearings of Omar Khadr scheduled for today. If his case moves forward, Khadr will be the first child soldier in American history to be prosecuted for alleged war crimes.

Jennifer Turner of the ACLU Human Rights Program will be observing today's proceedings.

Now 22, Khadr was 15 when he was captured by U.S. forces in Afghanistan for allegedly throwing a grenade that killed a U.S. soldier. In a signed, nine-page affidavit, Khadr charged that he was repeatedly threatened with rape during interrogations while held both in Afghanistan and at Guantánamo Bay. Khadr's trial has raised serious concerns about its fairness, including the use of testimony his attorneys say was coerced through torture.

Tainted by political interference, the Guantánamo military commission proceedings have been marred by ethical and legal problems from day one. Among other things, the proceedings allow the admission of secret evidence, hearsay and evidence obtained through torture. The Bush administration has admitted that at least three detainees in its custody have been subjected to waterboarding.

The ACLU has been present as an independent observer at nearly every commission hearing since 2004 and continues to see no indication that the proceedings are fair, impartial or in accordance with constitutional principles.

http://www.aclu.org/....html?s_src=RSS

So it seems there is a great deal of ammunition to attack the process. Also there was Canadian involvement during his detention which may be sufficient to trigger jurisdiction and invoke his Charter rights. Vancouver Sun Op-Ed

Canada should uphold the rule of law, even in Khadr case

Vancouver Sun


Friday, July 18, 2008


The video of Canadian Security Intelligence Service agents questioning 16-year-old Omar Khadr in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba revealed many things. As has been said, it gave Canadians a glimpse of a CSIS interrogation and of the CSIS's methods of gathering intelligence.

But it also revealed something much more troubling: That the Canadian government -- both Liberal and Conservative -- far from merely acquiescing in the United States' decision to hold enemy combatants without charges or legal counsel, has been an active participant in the process.

In the video, which was shot in 2003, not long after the U.S. opened the prison in Cuba, Khadr appears elated upon first meeting the agents, saying he had long requested a hearing with the Canadian government.

But after realizing that the agents were not there to help him, Khadr, who had been sleep-deprived before the interrogation, collapsed into sobs, saying what has variously been interpreted as "kill me," "help me" and "ya ummi" ("Oh mother" in Arabic).

The interrogation itself isn't particularly harsh, although the agents did play on Khadr's belief that they could help him. And they should have taken more seriously Khadr's claims that he was not receiving proper medical treatment for his injuries, and should have inquired into whether he had been tortured.

What is most troubling is not the content of the interrogation, but that it occurred at all. To begin with, the CSIS agents interrogated Khadr without first advising him of his right to counsel, a violation of his basic legal rights.

More fundamentally, while Canada is not directly responsible for the treatment -- or mistreatment -- of Khadr in Cuba, the government's willingness to participate in the process, and the agents' cavalier dismissal of Khadr's complaints, means that Canada bears some legal and moral responsibility for what happens in Guantanamo Bay.

This is in stark contrast to the governments of other western countries. Khadr is the only western national remaining in Guantanamo Bay, as all other countries with detainees in Cuba struck deals with the U.S. government to have them released.

Similarly, Khadr is the only remaining detainee who was a child when he was captured by U.S. forces. Introduced by his father to al-Qaida officials when he was 10, Khadr was captured at the age of 15 and brought to Guantanamo a few months later.

And Canada's support for the detention and military trial of child soldiers is not only in stark contrast to the attitude of other western countries, but to its international obligations and its express support for the rehabilitation of child soldiers.

Indeed, Canada was a leader in the drafting and adoption of the Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, which requires parties to the protocol to provide assistance for the physical and psychological recovery of child soldiers and to facilitate their social reintegration. Similarly, the "Paris Principles," which Canada supports, state that child soldiers "should be considered primarily as victims of offences against international law," and calls on states to emphasize restorative justice and social rehabilitation when dealing with underage combatants.

By actively supporting the detention and treatment of Khadr in Guantanamo, Canada, for all its high-minded talk about child soldiers, has made it clear that it is just that -- talk.

Faced with the spectre of a real child soldier, Canada seems content not only to ignore its commitment to children of war, but its commitment to protecting the fundamental legal rights that are due to all Canadians, regardless of age.

All Canadians ought to be concerned about this. If Canada is not genuinely committed to its domestic and international obligations, and to the rule of law, then no Canadian is safe.

http://www.canada.co...98-9c8fec2ddebd

OTOH a Canadian court may be wary be of doing so because it may prejudice the ability of Canadians to be granted transfer back to Canada in future.
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#10 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:25 PM

Wetcoaster, i posed some questions for you up thread....care to impart to us your opinion?
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#11 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:30 PM

Wetcoaster, i posed some questions for you up thread....care to impart to us your opinion?

See post #9.
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#12 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:33 PM

Is it still legal to shoot child soldier in battle?

No, you have to let him shoot you.

Seriously? Yet another bizarre tangent. :blink:
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#13 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:35 PM

No, you have to let him shoot you.

Seriously? Yet another bizarre tangent. :blink:



Just figuring out where the line is. Do I have to be deeply knowlegable of every international and legal ruling that there is?

Since that's the case suprised with a dead soldier on the co-alition side that there was any prisoners left to take in the first place. In good news the old man that got him into it is in the ground.
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#14 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:42 PM

Just figuring out where the line is. Do I have to be deeply knowlegable of every international and legal ruling that there is?

Since that's the case suprised with a dead soldier on the co-alition side that there was any prisoners left to take in the first place. In good news the old man that got him into it is in the ground.

What line? The line between surreal and real?

The obvious answer does not require one be "deeply knowlegable (sic) of every international and legal ruling".
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#15 Wolfman Jack

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:43 PM

Canada

Section 46 of the Criminal Code of Canada has two degrees of treason, called "high treason" and "treason." However, both of these belong to the historical category of high treason, as opposed to petty treason which does not exist in Canadian law. Section 46 reads as follows:

"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(B ) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
© assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(B ) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
© conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (B ) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (B ) and manifests that intention by an overt act."

It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada.

The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment. The penalty for treason is imprisonment up to a maximum of life, or up to 14 years for conduct under subsection (2)(B ) or (e) in peacetime.

Edited by Oscar the Grouch, 25 October 2010 - 04:44 PM.

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#16 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:48 PM

See post #9.


An incarceration based on Charter violation surely must supercede a Canadian court's unwillingness to hear testimony or to re-try an individual based on unsound sentences from a unconstitutional and more importantly, a non internationally recognised legal authority. Isn't that a fair statement and more to the point isn't that a reasonable expectation, by us?
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#17 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:54 PM

Canada

Section 46 of the Criminal Code of Canada has two degrees of treason, called "high treason" and "treason." However, both of these belong to the historical category of high treason, as opposed to petty treason which does not exist in Canadian law. Section 46 reads as follows:

"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(B ) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
© assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(B ) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
© conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (B ) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (B ) and manifests that intention by an overt act."

It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada.

The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment. The penalty for treason is imprisonment up to a maximum of life, or up to 14 years for conduct under subsection (2)(B ) or (e) in peacetime.



Too bad they took away the death penalty for that.
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#18 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:57 PM

What line? The line between surreal and real?

The obvious answer does not require one be "deeply knowlegable (sic) of every international and legal ruling".


I find some of the wailing over poor Mr. Kadr to be surreal myself.

Granted it's not right to torture even enemy captured soldiers, but right or wrongly, this is an enemy captured soldier who should be happy he wasn't shot and killed in the firefight that caused all this issue.

Frankly, if they want to rehab him, go ahead, but I don't want him in this country. He's afgani now.
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#19 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:07 PM

An incarceration based on Charter violation surely must supercede a Canadian court's unwillingness to hear testimony or to re-try an individual based on unsound sentences from a unconstitutional and more importantly, a non internationally recognised legal authority. Isn't that a fair statement and more to the point isn't that a reasonable expectation, by us?

Since Canada was not the incarcerating authority it raises issues of Charter applicability vis a vis the detention and other issues. There will need to be a sufficient connection to Canada found IMHO for a court in Canada to invoke the Charter on behalf of Khadr.

An analogous issue came up recently in the Ronald Smith clemency case where the Federal Court was not prepared to extend s.7 Charter protection and give it extra-territorial effect.
http://forum.canucks...age__p__9068611

Mind you I would love to do the case as counsel for Khadr.
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#20 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:09 PM

I find some of the wailing over poor Mr. Kadr to be surreal myself.

Granted it's not right to torture even enemy captured soldiers, but right or wrongly, this is an enemy captured soldier who should be happy he wasn't shot and killed in the firefight that caused all this issue.

Frankly, if they want to rehab him, go ahead, but I don't want him in this country. He's afgani now.

No, he is pretty clearly a Canadian citizen.
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#21 ahzdeen

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:12 PM

No, he is pretty clearly a Canadian citizen.

By birth. But by his action and his choices, he's an Afghan.
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#22 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:13 PM

No, he is pretty clearly a Canadian citizen.



A treasonous one. Just what we need.
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#23 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:14 PM

By birth. But by his action and his choices, he's an Afghan.



Like that matters to legal beavers.
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#24 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:18 PM

I find some of the wailing over poor Mr. Kadr to be surreal myself.

Granted it's not right to torture even enemy captured soldiers, but right or wrongly, this is an enemy captured soldier who should be happy he wasn't shot and killed in the firefight that caused all this issue.

Frankly, if they want to rehab him, go ahead, but I don't want him in this country. He's afgani now.


***!? He was a fifteen year old kid, in the wrong place at the wrong time, ***! Poor wailing!?

**** you!

A 15 year old Canadian kid was tortured for something he allegedly did....it was never proven...and even it was hypothetically speaking, proven, the fact that our government cut on of our own loose to a torturous and criminal regime, is ******* mind blowingly appauling and shows that it can happen to anyone.....maybe even your kid one day.

He's not an enemy...he's a Canadian brother....our kid brother....and we let him rot in his own piss and **** while turning a blind eye and removing any helping hand. How is he afghani now? He's still a Canadian citizen...and he's been tortured since he was a kid. If we send him back to Afghanistan, I assure you, you'll create a monster in the likes of Bin Laden, if it hasn't already.

If this had happened to me, i'd beg them to send me to afghanistan.... and then i'd throw a flamethrower to this whole place and all you self righteous, fake Charter loving, leave a Canadian behind, *************!
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#25 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:24 PM

Canada

Section 46 of the Criminal Code of Canada has two degrees of treason, called "high treason" and "treason." However, both of these belong to the historical category of high treason, as opposed to petty treason which does not exist in Canadian law. Section 46 reads as follows:

"High treason
(1) Every one commits high treason who, in Canada,

(a) kills or attempts to kill Her Majesty, or does her any bodily harm tending to death or destruction, maims or wounds her, or imprisons or restrains her;
(B ) levies war against Canada or does any act preparatory thereto; or
© assists an enemy at war with Canada, or any armed forces against whom Canadian Forces are engaged in hostilities, whether or not a state of war exists between Canada and the country whose forces they are.

Treason
(2) Every one commits treason who, in Canada,

(a) uses force or violence for the purpose of overthrowing the government of Canada or a province;
(B ) without lawful authority, communicates or makes available to an agent of a state other than Canada, military or scientific information or any sketch, plan, model, article, note or document of a military or scientific character that he knows or ought to know may be used by that state for a purpose prejudicial to the safety or defence of Canada;
© conspires with any person to commit high treason or to do anything mentioned in paragraph (a);
(d) forms an intention to do anything that is high treason or that is mentioned in paragraph (a) and manifests that intention by an overt act; or
(e) conspires with any person to do anything mentioned in paragraph (B ) or forms an intention to do anything mentioned in paragraph (B ) and manifests that intention by an overt act."

It is also illegal for a Canadian citizen to do any of the above outside Canada.

The penalty for high treason is life imprisonment. The penalty for treason is imprisonment up to a maximum of life, or up to 14 years for conduct under subsection (2)(B ) or (e) in peacetime.

Couple of issues.

The YCJA would apply as Khadr was 15 at the time of the alleged offence.

Canada has signed and adheres to to the UN child soldier treaty. In 2002 Canada was the first to ratify the so-called Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child, a treaty that requires signatories to give special consideration to captured enemy fighters under the age of 18. Unlike the detention in Guantanamo Canada could not hide behind US military law tribunals domestically.
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#26 Wetcoaster

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:26 PM

By birth. But by his action and his choices, he's an Afghan.

I disagree.
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#27 ronthecivil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:26 PM

***!? He was a fifteen year old kid, in the wrong place at the wrong time, ***! Poor wailing!?

**** you!

A 15 year old Canadian kid was tortured for something he allegedly did....it was never proven...and even it was hypothetically speaking, proven, the fact that our government cut on of our own loose to a torturous and criminal regime, is ******* mind blowingly appauling and shows that it can happen to anyone.....maybe even your kid one day.

He's not an enemy...he's a Canadian brother....our kid brother....and we let him rot in his own piss and **** while turning a blind eye and removing any helping hand. How is he afghani now? He's still a Canadian citizen...and he's been tortured since he was a kid. If we send him back to Afghanistan, I assure you, you'll create a monster in the likes of Bin Laden, if it hasn't already.

If this had happened to me, i'd beg them to send me to afghanistan.... and then i'd throw a flamethrower to this whole place and all you self righteous, fake Charter loving, leave a Canadian behind, *************!


He had been training with Al Quida since he was ten years old. Granted, he isn't the one that's truely bad (that would be the father that brought him over there) but it's fairly safe to say that he has been indoctrinated to fight against the west since day one.

And I don't think it's right to torture enemy combatants but then again I don't think it's wrong to shoot them when they are in a firefight against you. Obviously some people in the building he was taken from were shooting back since a soldier was killed, and frankly if I was one of them I would probably have wiped everyone in the building out.

Either way, he's certainly going to be fracked up, and I am suspecting that once he gets out of jail he's not going to rehab and want to play any nicer with us at that time then he did in the first place.

Oh, and expressing desires to kill fellow Canadians that don't agree with you politically? That's got to be the world record for most intollerant post ever. At least I know where your loyalties lie.
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#28 Sharpshooter

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:55 PM

He had been training with Al Quida since he was ten years old. Granted, he isn't the one that's truely bad (that would be the father that brought him over there) but it's fairly safe to say that he has been indoctrinated to fight against the west since day one.

And I don't think it's right to torture enemy combatants but then again I don't think it's wrong to shoot them when they are in a firefight against you. Obviously some people in the building he was taken from were shooting back since a soldier was killed, and frankly if I was one of them I would probably have wiped everyone in the building out.

Either way, he's certainly going to be fracked up, and I am suspecting that once he gets out of jail he's not going to rehab and want to play any nicer with us at that time then he did in the first place.

Oh, and expressing desires to kill fellow Canadians that don't agree with you politically? That's got to be the world record for most intollerant post ever. At least I know where your loyalties lie.


He was 10 years old and training with Al Queda?? What was he doing taking sniper lessons? IED classes? Man, you get spoonfed a little ******** and you lick your chops and open your mouth wider...don't you? Fairly safe to say he's indoctrinated? Link please. Pics or it didn't happen, where's the beef? How the **** would you know if he was indoctrinated as a terrible AlQueda fighter? I bet he barely learned the difference between his peehole and his bunghole. He was ten!

All you have to go by is an american soldier who was caught contradicting his stories. Look at the precedence set by the U.S. military in Afghanistan and Iraq over the years. You don't suspect a distortion of accounts, whether willful or not, at least plausible?
If someone was shooting at you....wouldn't you shoot back? Or would you hold up your Shopper's Drug Mart Club card and plead with them not to shoot further? Every house in Afghanistan probably has a weapon, and if someone felt they needed to protect themselves from a case of overzealous GI Joes, then so be it. But you believe everything you read don't you. No, those U.S. army guys never get it wrong, or lie, of misrepresent, or commit atrocities, or bomb friendly nations soldiers and then try to blame others or downright deny it, right?

Everyone is a terrorist in Afghanistan right, Ron? If you ever heard and watched the interview tapes with this kid...all he ever wanted was to come home...and be a kid again. He didn't betray us...we betrayed him.

And I don't care what you think of me or my loyalties...if my country systematically abandoned, betrayed, commited treason against me, threw me to the wolves or denied me my family, my rights, and justice.....you're ******* God damn right I'd rain my hate and fury down on it. I'd die to make sure it never happened to another kid again, and I sure as **** would kill to make sure it never happened to another kid like me again....if I was,hypothetically, found to be in a similar situation.

The fact that you'd cut a Canadian kid loose after he was tortured, by a lying, misleading, unconstitutional, Int'l convention circumventing, military run boondoggle and sham of justice, reveals to me your loyalty to the spirit of our Charter, your inability to empathise, your inhumanity and your ability to eat **** when fed it.
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#29 ahzdeen

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 05:56 PM

I disagree.

I figured you might. But that's how some people feel and explains the reactions of quite a few people.
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#30 inane

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 06:00 PM

He's a Canadian citizen. End of story. Whether he acts like this or that is irrelevant.

You take the good with the bad. And in this case it's comical watching a few of you argue you KNOW he's a terrorist at birth.
Scary stuff...
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