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Khadr Sentenced To 40 Years By Military Tribunal


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#91 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:27 PM

1- Apparently you cared who threw the grenade. You claimed he threw the grenade and killed a special forces soldier...i could requote you if you'd like me too.....
2-So, there 's the doubt about ...actively fighting against the soldiers.....that much we can at least reasonably argue


1-No, don't quote me, quote his admission or the sworn testimony of dozens of sworn witnesses. Keep in mind that he admitted to this the other day, under no duress. If it's a false confession, that's his issue (and apparently yours).

2-Uhh, no there's not and no you can't. One doesn't find themselves in the boonies of Afghanistan, holed up with a bunch of AQ terrorists in a firefight with US troops unless they are intimately involved.

'2) Ok, so you believe he was there...i'll concede and say I believe that too. '

Good, Now we're getting somewhere...

'No show me proof of his training'

I don't need to. Ask him yourself. WTF was he doing in Pakistan and Afghanistan? Visiting family?

'and that he was armed at the time.'

He was. And if he wasn't, he's an idiot...I don't know about you, but if I am sworn to jihad and to kill as many US troops as I can, I want to be armed with more than a sharp wit and a babyface

..that is independent of the initial soldiers who captured him and from military intelligence that asserts his training and efficacy as bona fide Al Queda soldier.


Well, unfortunately, the only folks that were there that are not US soldiers are dead.

3) I have precedent as my evidence,i also have contradiction, refusal to admit evidence, and all the trimmings of a kangaroo court, coverups by the U.S. military,


show it

i have the knowledge of war crimes and acts of homicide and fratricide


If you have knowlege of war crimes, you should report it. Show it(with relevance to this incident).

Would you say i'm wrong to not believe everything they tend to say, is factual? Do you still believe Iraq has weapons of mass destruction still too?


No, and no.

4) If you want to think of me a blind fool who only has hate for the U.S. then you don't know me very well, and this shows the power of your argument. Let me tell you how much I hate the U.S. and presumably its soldiers, since we're presuming and all. A couple years ago I was in Atlanta on business, and I was flying to phoenix, to connect to a flight back to vancouver. One the plane I happened to be sandwiched between 2 U.S. marines , returning from Bagram Air Force Base. They'd been flying all night. All they had on were their AR MARPAT's and nothing else. I sat there for a bit, thinking should I strike up a conversation or leave it, because they looked tired but insanely intense. The guy to my left, sorted it out fro me, by offering me a stick of his gum. I accepted gratefully and began taling to him about everything from his experiences to his wife and 3 year old daughter, his fears of returning back home, my views as a Canadian...everything, during that approx 4 hour flight...and subsequent wait at the dallas terminal..after I offered to buy him a cold one, which he politely refused. The last thing he sid to me, as we said our goodbyes and parted ways was, "Thanks, i wasn't sure if you felt like talking,and I was afraid to talk to you", I asked "Why?", and he said "I don't know...if feel scared a lot, nowadays" I said, "No worries, bud, you're safe, enjoy your time with your family" And he said, "Yeah, i hope my daughter doesn't mind me leaving in a couple of weeks again though" My point is that you have no clue, how much respect I have for the soldiers of the U.S. for the most part, and how wrong you're assertion of me having a blind hate for the U.S. is. But,. you go on and think what you want...not all dissent = despise.


Big deal. You talked to a US soldier. I have served with them...you wanna play this game?

4b) By letting him die, it would have been discovered that this 15 year old Canadian citizen was shot in the back twice and left to die. What do you think the outcry and backlash would have looked like for the U.S. military during a time when three months earlier 4 Canadian soldiers were killed by a U.S. F-16 bomb? What would have the the response by our citizenary towards our involvement, our gov't and The U.S. have been if we would have been treated to that bit of news after mourning for weeks the loss of those 4 Soldiers of ours? Tinfoil? Sure. You keep eating...there's plenty more manure to come. I suppose not everyone has the ability to see what 2 and 2 put together could mean.


People are shot in the back in battle all the time. There's nothing wrong with that. These aren't cops - they are not there to arrest - they are there to destroy the enemy. In this situation, if they are on a legitimate mission to destroy the compound and every enemy in it, they plug each and every one of them until they either surrender or die. That's there job. So if he ended up dead with bullet wounds consistant with being shot in the back, that's just fine.
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#92 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:31 PM

Soldier 2 is discussed in the court documents that I cited. the defence had tried on a number of occasions to secure his attendance as a witness.

Khadr was being tried for the murder of Sgt Christopher Speer - that is contained in the charge sheet cited above.

If you are charging a person with murder it makes significant difference if he actually threw the grenade. The concept of constructive murder would not apply to this sort of case. If Khadr did not then he is not guilty of the charge of murder.

I'm not arguing the murder charge....I DON'T CARE IF HE THREW THE GRENADE OR NOT.

I am arguing that he was a legitimate target of the US soldiers there, that he was actually saved by those same troops, and I am refuting any suggestion that he was captured, THEN shot, THEN saved.
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#93 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:32 PM

ughh...fear monger much?



Spend five years living in an Al Quada camp and then the rest amogst the worst of the worst in Gitmo, so is it hard to expect that he would have the no how?

And if he wasn't already pissed at the west or our governemnt, I suspect he is now!

Naah, why worry about a guy like that? :rolleyes:
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#94 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:34 PM

Spend five years living in an Al Quada camp and then the rest amogst the worst of the worst in Gitmo, so is it hard to expect that he would have the no how?

And if he wasn't already pissed at the west or our governemnt, I suspect he is now!

Naah, why worry about a guy like that? :rolleyes:

Oh I am sure once he steps on Canadian soil, he won't be able to poop without CSIS knowing the corn-content.
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#95 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:40 PM

When you're living with the terrorist organisation that was behind 9-11 why would you expect any different?

How will you feel if he decides to cause carnage right here at home after he is let loose? It's fairly safe to say he is fully trained in how to do so!


The boogey man's coming to get you! Run!
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#96 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:42 PM

The boogey man's coming to get you! Run!

Are you saying that a man who admits to being trained by AQ, who engaged in a firefight with US troops, who spent 8 years in Gitmo with some very nasty people, who will be free in a few years in Canada....is not at least a concern for you? Not on the radar at all?

What consititutes a real threat? Nothing short of Hitler?
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#97 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:43 PM

I'm not arguing the murder charge....I DON'T CARE IF HE THREW THE GRENADE OR NOT.

I am arguing that he was a legitimate target of the US soldiers there, that he was actually saved by those same troops, and I am refuting any suggestion that he was captured, THEN shot, THEN saved.

Soldier 2's evidence and the photographs suggest otherwise. At the time of his capture he was not wounded in the back.
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#98 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:44 PM

Are you saying that a man who admits to being trained by AQ, who engaged in a firefight with US troops, who spent 8 years in Gitmo with some very nasty people, who will be free in a few years in Canada....is not at least a concern for you? Not on the radar at all?

What consititutes a real threat? Nothing short of Hitler?

The threat assessments filed in Parliament and other reports seem to come to a different conclusion but never let facts get in the way of an uninformed rant.
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Never try to teach a pig to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

#99 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:52 PM

Soldier 2's evidence and the photographs suggest otherwise. At the time of his capture he was not wounded in the back.

I've seen the photos (I have them on this CP, but I suspect CDC won't allow me to post them). They are very gruesome, and there's blood everywhere...eyes, back, chest, legs...everywhere.

So ONE guy says something totally illogical and contradictory, and therefore the whole thing's shiite? What kinda logic is that? You're a smart guy, can you honestly say that ANY US interest was served by capturing, shooting and saving Khadr (in that order)? I can tell you with relative certainty (based on my professional experience) that any Officer close enough to respond prior to Khadr bleeding out would be the Officer in charge of those troops, and would therefore NOT do an aboutface on the orders. They would have just let him die or finished him off. In the EXCEPTIONALY unlikely event that such a plan was in place, there is NO chance that those that devised, planned, and ordered it would allow an officer that was not 'on board' to be close enough to meddle in this highly illegal and exceptionaly unlikely plan.

It makes no sense. Not tacticaly, not strategicaly, not legally, not ethically. The only context that something like this makes sense in is one wrapped around the selling of papers or crackpot ideology.

Edited by JAH, 26 October 2010 - 01:53 PM.

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#100 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:55 PM

The threat assessments filed in Parliament and other reports seem to come to a different conclusion but never let facts get in the way of an uninformed rant.

So this is a non-issue to you... is that right? I'm not saying everyone needs to treat this guy like Olsen or OBL, but he aint you're average Joe.
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#101 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:03 PM

The threat assessments filed in Parliament and other reports seem to come to a different conclusion but never let facts get in the way of an uninformed rant.



A threat assesment might be a LEGAL "fact" but it's nothing more than on persons opinion on someone. There's no way of knowing for sure what his intentions are, AQ trained people to show themselves as being good ol western people just trying to earn a living.

I have legitimate reasons for my opinion, and it differering from yours doesn't make it uniformed, and no amount of condesending will make it so.

And before you bother posting it, I already know you disagree.
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#102 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:05 PM

So this is a non-issue to you... is that right? I'm not saying everyone needs to treat this guy like Olsen or OBL, but he aint you're average Joe.



Why would a guy who openly admits he would want to represent him coming back disagree with an interviewers opinion that he is not a threat?
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#103 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:09 PM

Why would a guy who openly admits he would want to represent him coming back disagree with an interviewers opinion that he is not a threat?

Good question. Did Wet say this? I must have missed it...
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#104 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:14 PM

1-No, don't quote me, quote his admission or the sworn testimony of dozens of sworn witnesses. Keep in mind that he admitted to this the other day, under no duress. If it's a false confession, that's his issue (and apparently yours).

2-Uhh, no there's not and no you can't. One doesn't find themselves in the boonies of Afghanistan, holed up with a bunch of AQ terrorists in a firefight with US troops unless they are intimately involved.

'2) Ok, so you believe he was there...i'll concede and say I believe that too. '

Good, Now we're getting somewhere...

'No show me proof of his training'

I don't need to. Ask him yourself. WTF was he doing in Pakistan and Afghanistan? Visiting family?

'and that he was armed at the time.'

He was. And if he wasn't, he's an idiot...I don't know about you, but if I am sworn to jihad and to kill as many US troops as I can, I want to be armed with more than a sharp wit and a babyface



Well, unfortunately, the only folks that were there that are not US soldiers are dead.



show it



If you have knowlege of war crimes, you should report it. Show it(with relevance to this incident).



No, and no.



Big deal. You talked to a US soldier. I have served with them...you wanna play this game?



People are shot in the back in battle all the time. There's nothing wrong with that. These aren't cops - they are not there to arrest - they are there to destroy the enemy. In this situation, if they are on a legitimate mission to destroy the compound and every enemy in it, they plug each and every one of them until they either surrender or die. That's there job. So if he ended up dead with bullet wounds consistant with being shot in the back, that's just fine.



I'll show you some war crimes...and in relation to this incident...they'll out in time....or get swept under the rug, as usual. Just wait, there's evidence coming for the crimes perpetrated by all sides in Afghanistan, bursting to come out.

The Journalist Jamie Doran was tortured and beaten for reporting about the War Crimes of american army in Afghanistan. When the documentary was shown to the German parliment memebers, they were crying with tears to see the cruelty at its peak

Warning: Graphic footage

http://video.google....03582207034825#

Youtube: War Crimes Caught on Video

Warning: Graphic language.

Youtube: American Iraq War Crimes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNfgqYYQFYU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v-TUNwFU4M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iohY7Z3IPsk&feature=related

You served with them eh? Good for you. You're doing a fine job of defending them. But I suppose brothers in arms tend to do that. Too bad that you're attempts at protecting them supercedes protecting a 15 year kid. Must be a shared tactic between forces, right?
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#105 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:21 PM

Are you saying that a man who admits to being trained by AQ, who engaged in a firefight with US troops, who spent 8 years in Gitmo with some very nasty people, who will be free in a few years in Canada....is not at least a concern for you? Not on the radar at all?

What consititutes a real threat? Nothing short of Hitler?


I suppose those soldiers that go on tape and confess to their crimes while being held with promise to be returned if they confess must also be true and legitimate confessions, right?

Nasty people? Lol...you don't what you're talking about....most of them have been released without being charged...did you know that??

No, you just keep believing what you're fed....I guess every good soldier doesn't question orders right? Believe what they say, not what you see, right?

Now, why would a kid who's been tortured for 8 years, finally confess....hmmm? It must because he finally, realised he's guilty eh?

And thanks for brining up Hitler...it ain't a proper discussion till Hitler's name gets brought up.

Geez.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 26 October 2010 - 02:21 PM.

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#106 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:24 PM

I'll show you some war crimes...and in relation to this incident...they'll out in time....or get swept under the rug, as usual. Just wait, there's evidence coming for the crimes perpetrated by all sides in Afghanistan, bursting to come out.

The Journalist Jamie Doran was tortured and beaten for reporting about the War Crimes of american army in Afghanistan. When the documentary was shown to the German parliment memebers, they were crying with tears to see the cruelty at its peak

Warning: Graphic footage

http://video.google....03582207034825#

Youtube: War Crimes Caught on Video

Warning: Graphic language.

Youtube: American Iraq War Crimes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNfgqYYQFYU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v-TUNwFU4M&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iohY7Z3IPsk&feature=related

You served with them eh? Good for you. You're doing a fine job of defending them. But I suppose brothers in arms tend to do that. Too bad that you're attempts at protecting them supercedes protecting a 15 year kid. Must be a shared tactic between forces, right?

Although disturbing, these incidents are irrelevant to what is being discussed.

I can be found being critical of US policies quite a bit here, this is not a knee-jerk or insincere stance.

My defending the troops conduct is in line with the Law of Armed Conflict, the Geneva COnvention(s), and common sense. Khadr was in contravention of ALL of those things, and he has not asked for or is deserving of my defence. He could have avoided all of this (all 8 years plus) by adhering to Canadian ethical standards on the conduct of Canadians, and failing that, by adhering to International Law. He chose to be a beligerant against his won country and her allies, found himself in a fire fight, and was wounded. Boo hoo. The murder charge is silly and unnecessary IMHO.

It's too bad the US troop's aim wasn't a little better and that the Gods of War weren't a little more favourable with regards to the shrapnel.
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#107 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:25 PM

A threat assesment might be a LEGAL "fact" but it's nothing more than on persons opinion on someone. There's no way of knowing for sure what his intentions are, AQ trained people to show themselves as being good ol western people just trying to earn a living.

I have legitimate reasons for my opinion, and it differering from yours doesn't make it uniformed, and no amount of condesending will make it so.

And before you bother posting it, I already know you disagree.


It's not condescension you're hearing...it's that little voice inside you're head telling you he may be right. It's telling you to u-turn from your obstinancy and fear mongering and most likely, at the top of it's little inner head voice lungs, yelling at to you to remove it out from your ***.
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#108 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:27 PM

Although disturbing, these incidents are irrelevant to what is being discussed.

I can be found being critical of US policies quite a bit here, this is not a knee-jerk or insincere stance.

My defending the troops conduct is in line with the Law of Armed Conflict, the Geneva COnvention(s), and common sense. Khadr was in contravention of ALL of those things, and he has not asked for or is deserving of my defence. He could have avoided all of this (all 8 years plus) by adhering to Canadian ethical standards on the conduct of Canadians, and failing that, by adhering to International Law. He chose to be a beligerant against his won country and her allies, found himself in a fire fight, and was wounded. Boo hoo. The murder charge is silly and unnecessary IMHO.

It's too bad the US troop's aim wasn't a little better and that the Gods of War weren't a little more favourable with regards to the shrapnel.



How does an uneducated child go about doing that on his own again?
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#109 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:29 PM

I suppose those soldiers that go on tape and confess to their crimes while being held with promise to be returned if they confess must also be true and legitimate confessions, right?


i don't know what you're trying to say here...honestly.

Nasty people? Lol...you don't what you're talking about....most of them have been released without being charged...did you know that??


Doesn't mean they're any less nasty...

No, you just keep believing what you're fed....I guess every good soldier doesn't question orders right? Believe what they say, not what you see, right?


You don't know what you're talking about. You know next to nothing about me or soldiering and you're embarrassing yourself. If you want to know the duties and responsibilities of a soldier, ask. But you just want to criticize, and don't actually want to LEARN anything, right?

Now, why would a kid who's been tortured for 8 years, finally confess....hmmm? It must because he finally, realised he's guilty eh?


Why would he confess now? His trial was underway, he entered a not guilty plea, and was not being interogated anymore. If the 'torture' was suffiecient to break him, why did he enter a not guilty plea?
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#110 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:31 PM

Although disturbing, these incidents are irrelevant to what is being discussed.

I can be found being critical of US policies quite a bit here, this is not a knee-jerk or insincere stance.

My defending the troops conduct is in line with the Law of Armed Conflict, the Geneva COnvention(s), and common sense. Khadr was in contravention of ALL of those things, and he has not asked for or is deserving of my defence. He could have avoided all of this (all 8 years plus) by adhering to Canadian ethical standards on the conduct of Canadians, and failing that, by adhering to International Law. He chose to be a beligerant against his won country and her allies, found himself in a fire fight, and was wounded. Boo hoo. The murder charge is silly and unnecessary IMHO.

It's too bad the US troop's aim wasn't a little better and that the Gods of War weren't a little more favourable with regards to the shrapnel.


There are no God's in wars...just lesser devils...and the ones that do their bidding. There are no heroes here, there's no just cause here, there's no imminent threat to us here, there is a situation that necessitates law enforcement not war cimes.
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#111 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:31 PM

How does an uneducated child go about doing that on his own again?

By not picking up the banner of OBL, by not actively engaging coalition troops, by not killing coalition troops, by not subscribing to Wahabiism, by not confessing when captured, by not engaging in armed conflict in an illegal manner...shall I go on?

Edited by JAH, 26 October 2010 - 02:36 PM.

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#112 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:35 PM

There are no God's in wars...just lesser devils...and the ones that do their bidding. There are no heroes here, there's no just cause here, there's no imminent threat to us here, there is a situation that necessitates law enforcement not war cimes.

You sound like the love child of Michael Moore and Chief Wiggum.

"Nothing to see here folks! Just American Imperialism! Nyahhh!'
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#113 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:43 PM

It's not condescension you're hearing...it's that little voice inside you're head telling you he may be right. It's telling you to u-turn from your obstinancy and fear mongering and most likely, at the top of it's little inner head voice lungs, yelling at to you to remove it out from your ***.



Thank you for the back up condesending.

I think people that grew up in Al Queda camps running around with Osama's kids until they get into a gunfight with the special forces and then spend seven years in Gitmo might not be the most stable of people.

P.S. The little voice actually has me more worried about you. That's some seriously pent up anger you got going there. I recomnend laying off the proffesional wrestling, at least when it comes to your debating techniques. ;)
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#114 inane

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:43 PM

I love how the rationale here is that a relatively uneducated 15 year old should know better.
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#115 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:44 PM

You sound like the love child of Michael Moore and Chief Wiggum.

"Nothing to see here folks! Just American Imperialism! Nyahhh!'


And in return, I thank you for your service to our country, and would most assuredly buy you a round or ten, if ever I had the opportunity to. I won't dishonor your service with a reply in kind....thou you know m very capable and eager to do so, no, it's your mentality in this specific case that I don't honour, for there isn't any honour in it to be found.




In war, truth is the first casualty.
~Aeschylus

Edited by Sharpshooter, 26 October 2010 - 02:44 PM.

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#116 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:47 PM

I love how the rationale here is that a relatively uneducated 15 year old should know better.



It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that hanging out with people who carry AK-47s and run bomb making schools aren't the most peaceful people out there.
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#117 inane

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:48 PM

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that hanging out with people who carry AK-47s and run bomb making schools aren't the most peaceful people out there.


Says the guy sitting comfortably on his couch in a stable democracy.
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#118 taxi

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:51 PM

By not picking up the banner of OBL, by not actively engaging coalition troops, by not killing coalition troops, by not subscribing to Wahabiism, by not confessing when captured, by not engaging in armed conflict in an illegal manner...shall I go on?


There's a reason that children aren't allowed to vote, drink liquor, have sex with adults etc...

Because they're not capable of making proper decisions for themselves. In this situation was he supposed to run away and hide in the mountains of Afghanistan by himself?

I don't think it's fair to let Khadr off completely, but I think he most certainly deserves a reduced sentence.
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#119 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:53 PM

I love how the rationale here is that a relatively uneducated 15 year old should know better.

You need not crack a book to know that joining an AQ terrorist training camp is wrong. You need not enter a classroom to know that committing War Crimes is wrong. You don't need to be an educated person to know that Islamic ideology that promotes the murder of innocents based on nationality is wrong.
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#120 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:53 PM

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that hanging out with people who carry AK-47s and run bomb making schools aren't the most peaceful people out there.


Don't forget that he was brain-washed by his father for 5 years.
And everyone there was probably saying the same mantra "West is evil".
I sincerely doubt that kid knew the western perspective of right or wrong.
To him...it was probably the "right" thing to carry guns and defend his homeland.
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