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Khadr Sentenced To 40 Years By Military Tribunal


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#121 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:55 PM

Says the guy sitting comfortably on his couch in a stable democracy.

I'm saying the same thing and don't fall into your charactrization (ok right now I do, but that's not always the case).
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#122 inane

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:57 PM

You need not crack a book to know that joining an AQ terrorist training camp is wrong. You need not enter a classroom to know that committing War Crimes is wrong. You don't need to be an educated person to know that Islamic ideology that promotes the murder of innocents based on nationality is wrong.


Hey, that's great that from your perspective those things are obvious. You don't see how it's slightly ridiculous for you to speak in absolutes about a people/nation/culture and more specifically an individual you know nothing about?
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#123 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:58 PM

Don't forget that he was brain-washed by his father for 5 years.
And everyone there was probably saying the same mantra "West is evil".
I sincerely doubt that kid knew the western perspective of right or wrong.
To him...it was probably the "right" thing to carry guns and defend his homeland.

It wasn't 5 years for one.

And secondly, I find it a little too convenient to use his Canadian citizenship as some kind of shield to hide behind with regards to extradiction and our responsibility to protect. But then when we start to question how he could be an innocent while taking part in this abhorent activity, you claim he doesn't know the Western (read: Canadian) definition of right and wrong?

I call bs.

Edited by JAH, 26 October 2010 - 02:59 PM.

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#124 GarthButcher

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:59 PM

Wow, some of the knuckle draggers have come out of the woodwork for this one. Let's see which wacked-out statements can be refuted here (too many to deal with in just one post).

The first one is about the distinction of what is a 'terrorist'. Any student of history can see that the term is used to label anyone who is mounting an opposition. Prominent 'terrorists' through history:

-the founding fathers of the US - labelled terrorists by Great Britain
-those opposing the invasion/occupation of Vietnam by the French and Americans
-Cubans opposing the rule of the US backed dictator Batista
-Zionists Jews opposing British rule in then Palestine -then- Palestinians opposing Zionist rule in once Palestine

The Palestinian case is the most clearcut. When the Brits had power, the Zionists were terrorists. Now that the zionists hold power, the Palestinians are the terrorists. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

That is why the interpretation of exactly who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter should always be considered a legitimate political argument. It strikes at the heart of power, which is what politics is about.

Were the Americans right to prop up the dictator Batista? Were they right to invade and occupy Vietnam (killing 1 million Vietnamese in the process)? Were they right in invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq?

This gets to the 2nd point. The question of a legal war.

There is a question as to whether any war can be deemed legal. If the standard is a UN vote, then let's discuss Iraq.

Since there was no international authorization for the invasion of Iraq, by the terms used, it was an illegal war. So, should all US soldiers be tried for war crimes for their killings in Iraq?

The US never even declared War against Vietnam. They faked an attack to circumvent that authorization (Gulf of Tonkin). Where's the treason and war crimes charges for that action.

The US helped to create and arm the Mujahadeen to fight the soviets. They morphed into the Taliban. The US then invades Afghanistan to fight the force they created.

The US armed Saddam to fight Iran. Then invaded Iraq to fight the force they created.

The US armed the Viet Cong to fight the Japanese. Then invaded Vietnam to fight them.

History is littered with these incidents, and the sad part is those who are prone to drinking the kool-aid (ie. the anyone who fights the US is a "terrorist" and therefore doesn't deserve any basic rights except execution) will fight to the death forever to defend ideas that history will judge more clearly in time.

Whatever your opinion about Mr. Khadr, the very least he's entitled to is a fair trial. What he has gotten instead is 8 years of torture, without a fair trial, completely abandoned by his own government. This is a shame for Canada.
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#125 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:00 PM

And in return, I thank you for your service to our country, and would most assuredly buy you a round or ten, if ever I had the opportunity to. I won't dishonor your service with a reply in kind....thou you know m very capable and eager to do so, no, it's your mentality in this specific case that I don't honour, for there isn't any honour in it to be found.




In war, truth is the first casualty.
~Aeschylus


Oh come on! Give me a break! You've shown me no respect, called into question my intelligence and ethics, and NOW you're 'honouring' me?!

Give me a break and keep your drink. Next time ask instead of just pumping your verbal diahrea my way.
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#126 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:04 PM

Wow, some of the knuckle draggers have come out of the woodwork for this one. Let's see which wacked-out statements can be refuted here (too many to deal with in just one post).

The first one is about the distinction of what is a 'terrorist'. Any student of history can see that the term is used to label anyone who is mounting an opposition. Prominent 'terrorists' through history:

-the founding fathers of the US - labelled terrorists by Great Britain
-those opposing the invasion/occupation of Vietnam by the French and Americans
-Cubans opposing the rule of the US backed dictator Batista
-Zionists Jews opposing British rule in then Palestine -then- Palestinians opposing Zionist rule in once Palestine

The Palestinian case is the most clearcut. When the Brits had power, the Zionists were terrorists. Now that the zionists hold power, the Palestinians are the terrorists. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

That is why the interpretation of exactly who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter should always be considered a legitimate political argument. It strikes at the heart of power, which is what politics is about.

Were the Americans right to prop up the dictator Batista? Were they right to invade and occupy Vietnam (killing 1 million Vietnamese in the process)? Were they right in invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq?

This gets to the 2nd point. The question of a legal war.

There is a question as to whether any war can be deemed legal. If the standard is a UN vote, then let's discuss Iraq.

Since there was no international authorization for the invasion of Iraq, by the terms used, it was an illegal war. So, should all US soldiers be tried for war crimes for their killings in Iraq?

The US never even declared War against Vietnam. They faked an attack to circumvent that authorization (Gulf of Tonkin). Where's the treason and war crimes charges for that action.

The US helped to create and arm the Mujahadeen to fight the soviets. They morphed into the Taliban. The US then invades Afghanistan to fight the force they created.

The US armed Saddam to fight Iran. Then invaded Iraq to fight the force they created.

The US armed the Viet Cong to fight the Japanese. Then invaded Vietnam to fight them.

History is littered with these incidents, and the sad part is those who are prone to drinking the kool-aid (ie. the anyone who fights the US is a "terrorist" and therefore doesn't deserve any basic rights except execution) will fight to the death forever to defend ideas that history will judge more clearly in time.

Whatever your opinion about Mr. Khadr, the very least he's entitled to is a fair trial. What he has gotten instead is 8 years of torture, without a fair trial, completely abandoned by his own government. This is a shame for Canada.


Jesus, where did this come from?

The only thing I will respond to is the one I am 100% certain of - US soldiers (or any soldier) cannot be tried for war crimes for participating in an illegal war. Their legal culpability ends with their conduct, not that of their political or even military masters.

This is as per the Law of Armed Conflict.
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#127 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:05 PM

Don't forget that he was brain-washed by his father for 5 years.
And everyone there was probably saying the same mantra "West is evil".
I sincerely doubt that kid knew the western perspective of right or wrong.
To him...it was probably the "right" thing to carry guns and defend his homeland.



Thus my opinion that if he didn't think the west was evil and needing to get "cleansed" shall we say there's a very good chance he is now!
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#128 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:07 PM

Oh come on! Give me a break! You've shown me no respect, called into question my intelligence and ethics, and NOW you're 'honouring' me?!

Give me a break and keep your drink. Next time ask instead of just pumping your verbal diahrea my way.


I'm honouring your service, because it's my duty and responsibility to. You can take it or leave it. No skin off my nose. You'll still be you.
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#129 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:09 PM

Thus my opinion that if he didn't think the west was evil and needing to get "cleansed" shall we say there's a very good chance he is now!


I don't doubt he has alot of anger bottled up inside.
Whether it'll blow up or fizzle out remains to be seen.
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#130 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:12 PM

It wasn't 5 years for one.

And secondly, I find it a little too convenient to use his Canadian citizenship as some kind of shield to hide behind with regards to extradiction and our responsibility to protect. But then when we start to question how he could be an innocent while taking part in this abhorent activity, you claim he doesn't know the Western (read: Canadian) definition of right and wrong?

I call bs.



Yeah...he could have also known what is right and what is wrong.
And then hide behind Canadian law.
Truly don't know the truth.

But he shouldn't be tortured.
Fair trial and all that jazz.
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#131 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:13 PM

So this is a non-issue to you... is that right? I'm not saying everyone needs to treat this guy like Olsen or OBL, but he aint you're average Joe.

Yet the reports say he is not a threat.
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#132 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:14 PM

Wow, some of the knuckle draggers have come out of the woodwork for this one. Let's see which wacked-out statements can be refuted here (too many to deal with in just one post).

The first one is about the distinction of what is a 'terrorist'. Any student of history can see that the term is used to label anyone who is mounting an opposition. Prominent 'terrorists' through history:

-the founding fathers of the US - labelled terrorists by Great Britain
-those opposing the invasion/occupation of Vietnam by the French and Americans
-Cubans opposing the rule of the US backed dictator Batista
-Zionists Jews opposing British rule in then Palestine -then- Palestinians opposing Zionist rule in once Palestine

The Palestinian case is the most clearcut. When the Brits had power, the Zionists were terrorists. Now that the zionists hold power, the Palestinians are the terrorists. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

That is why the interpretation of exactly who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter should always be considered a legitimate political argument. It strikes at the heart of power, which is what politics is about.

Were the Americans right to prop up the dictator Batista? Were they right to invade and occupy Vietnam (killing 1 million Vietnamese in the process)? Were they right in invading and occupying Afghanistan and Iraq?

This gets to the 2nd point. The question of a legal war.

There is a question as to whether any war can be deemed legal. If the standard is a UN vote, then let's discuss Iraq.

Since there was no international authorization for the invasion of Iraq, by the terms used, it was an illegal war. So, should all US soldiers be tried for war crimes for their killings in Iraq?

The US never even declared War against Vietnam. They faked an attack to circumvent that authorization (Gulf of Tonkin). Where's the treason and war crimes charges for that action.

The US helped to create and arm the Mujahadeen to fight the soviets. They morphed into the Taliban. The US then invades Afghanistan to fight the force they created.

The US armed Saddam to fight Iran. Then invaded Iraq to fight the force they created.

The US armed the Viet Cong to fight the Japanese. Then invaded Vietnam to fight them.

History is littered with these incidents, and the sad part is those who are prone to drinking the kool-aid (ie. the anyone who fights the US is a "terrorist" and therefore doesn't deserve any basic rights except execution) will fight to the death forever to defend ideas that history will judge more clearly in time.

Whatever your opinion about Mr. Khadr, the very least he's entitled to is a fair trial. What he has gotten instead is 8 years of torture, without a fair trial, completely abandoned by his own government. This is a shame for Canada.



Oh, the US has all kinds of bad international policy decisions. You forgot about the CIA going around an assasinating democratically elected leaders back in the day.

However, as much as they might have helped arm them, I don't think many people feel that the organisation behind crashing planes into office towers are the good guys to say the least. Most of the WORLD thinks these guys aren't the best.

And Omar wasn't found fighting in Iraq. He was found in the UN back mission in Afganistan. The same mission that our own soldiers are still in.

Oh, and calling people with oppossing opinions "knuckle draggers" is hardly enlightened. In fact, it's the kind of mud slinging that pervades the US politics that reduces the debate to a schoolyard level. You should work on having tolerance and fairness for others yourself before you get preachy on the subject.
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#133 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:14 PM

Why would a guy who openly admits he would want to represent him coming back disagree with an interviewers opinion that he is not a threat?

The representation remark was based upon the novel and interesting legal principles that would be in play.

Consider it an intellectual challenge.
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#134 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:17 PM

I don't doubt he has alot of anger bottled up inside.
Whether it'll blow up or fizzle out remains to be seen.



Don't worry,there's a report that says he's fine, and those are never wrong.....:rolleyes:
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#135 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:23 PM

Don't worry,there's a report that says he's fine, and those are never wrong.....:rolleyes:


Actually WetCoaster has done a pretty good job in linking the assessment awaiting Omar upon his return. But, you can choose to ignore it and pretty much whatever other realities, WC, holds up two inches from in front of your face.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 26 October 2010 - 03:24 PM.

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#136 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:24 PM

You need not crack a book to know that joining an AQ terrorist training camp is wrong. You need not enter a classroom to know that committing War Crimes is wrong. You don't need to be an educated person to know that Islamic ideology that promotes the murder of innocents based on nationality is wrong.

You need to understand that child soldiers at international law are not committing War Crimes - they are considered victims of a War Crime. Canada was responsible for pushing for the protocol and the first signatory.
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#137 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:23 PM

The representation remark was based upon the novel and interesting legal principles that would be in play.

Consider it an intellectual challenge.



Oh, just saying that it would be foolish for YOU to challenge the report.

Just like it would be foolish to not expect someone in that kind of legal matter to present their own case as to his stability. I don't think it would be that hard to find someone to suggest that someone born and raised as a terrorist with years of brainwashing and weapons training under this best MIGHT be a threat, especially after years in GITMO, which even in your report was shown to be a possible risk.

Either way, I am not in a court of law, and frankly I am allowed to have my own opinion on the matter.
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#138 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:25 PM

Actually WetCoaster has done a pretty good job in linking the assessment awaiting Omar upon his return. But, you can choose to ignore it and pretty much whatever other realities, WC, holds up two inches from in front of your face.



One assesment fact does not make. This isn't a trial, I have legitimate reasons for my opinion, whether you, wet, or anyone else happens to feel that way.
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#139 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:27 PM

Oh, just saying that it would be foolish for YOU to challenge the report.

Just like it would be foolish to not expect someone in that kind of legal matter to present their own case as to his stability. I don't think it would be that hard to find someone to suggest that someone born and raised as a terrorist with years of brainwashing and weapons training under this best MIGHT be a threat, especially after years in GITMO, which even in your report was shown to be a possible risk.

Either way, I am not in a court of law, and frankly I am allowed to have my own opinion on the matter.


Lol...now he was born a terrorist? Wow...you've gone from riduculous to bat**** insane at warp speed.

Keep it going....i bet he's really OBL! :shock:
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#140 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:28 PM

You need to understand that child soldiers at international law are not committing War Crimes - they are considered victims of a War Crime. Canada was responsible for pushing for the protocol and the first signatory.



Well we already botched that one. Don't make me quote Todd Bertuzzi.

As it turns out he is no longer a child, but he has been surrounded by the same sort of people that were brainwashing him since age ten.

Even your beloved assesment writer identified that as a risk.
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#141 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:29 PM

One assesment fact does not make. This isn't a trial, I have legitimate reasons for my opinion, whether you, wet, or anyone else happens to feel that way.


Nope this isn't a trial...and neither was whatever farce Omar was subjected to.
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#142 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:29 PM

Oh, just saying that it would be foolish for YOU to challenge the report.

Just like it would be foolish to not expect someone in that kind of legal matter to present their own case as to his stability. I don't think it would be that hard to find someone to suggest that someone born and raised as a terrorist with years of brainwashing and weapons training under this best MIGHT be a threat, especially after years in GITMO, which even in your report was shown to be a possible risk.

Either way, I am not in a court of law, and frankly I am allowed to have my own opinion on the matter.

You are quite free to express an uninformed opinion... and others are free to point out its lack of foundation.

The assessments were done by the Canadian government officials and filed with Foreign Affairs as part of their mandate to monitor Canadians held in detention in foreign countries.

They also reference reports done by the US military.
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#143 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:31 PM

Lol...now he was born a terrorist? Wow...you've gone from riduculous to bat**** insane at warp speed.

Keep it going....i bet he's really OBL! :shock:



Given the attitudes of the family and his deposit into terrorist uni at age ten it's not outrageous to suggest he had a lifetime of indoctrination.

And no he's not Osama but didn't daddy used to hang out with him? Unlike you or me there's a good chance he actually met him!
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#144 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:34 PM

Given the attitudes of the family and his deposit into terrorist uni at age ten it's not outrageous to suggest he had a lifetime of indoctrination.

And no he's not Osama but didn't daddy used to hang out with him? Unlike you or me there's a good chance he actually met him!


The sins of the father shall be visited upon the son a thousand times? That's pretty old testament of you.
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#145 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:38 PM

You are quite free to express an uninformed opinion... and others are free to point out its lack of foundation.

The assessments were done by the Canadian government officials and filed with Foreign Affairs as part of their mandate to monitor Canadians held in detention in foreign countries.

They also reference reports done by the US military.


You are free to call it uninformed but that is not correct. I looked at the available information (including your stuff) and came up with a different conclusion. Referring to a differnce of opinion as uniformed is so tiring.

Like many Canadians, my view of the Canadian governments ability to asses risk in potentially dangerous people is woefully inadequate and a simply report based on a few meeting is hardly reasssuring.
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#146 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:41 PM

Given the attitudes of the family and his deposit into terrorist uni at age ten it's not outrageous to suggest he had a lifetime of indoctrination.

And no he's not Osama but didn't daddy used to hang out with him? Unlike you or me there's a good chance he actually met him!

It is also most likely that George Bush Senior met him as well given the business dealings that Bush has with the Bin Laden in respect of oil interests. So what?

As a child soldier Canada is obligated at international law to treat Omar Khadr as a victim of a War Crime and to apply demobilization, disarmament and reintegration (DDR) programs - not prosecution or imprisonment.
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#147 ronthecivil

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:41 PM

The sins of the father shall be visited upon the son a thousand times? That's pretty old testament of you.



Unfortunately, the fathers sin was to work to get him trained up as a terrorist. Unfortunately said training is what is problematic IMO. The Gitmo stuff didn't help either.

I agree the major problem was the father, but he's already dead so what we gonna do about that?
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#148 Sharpshooter

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:43 PM

You are free to call it uninformed but that is not correct. I looked at the available information (including your stuff) and came up with a different conclusion. Referring to a differnce of opinion as uniformed is so tiring.

Like many Canadians, my view of the Canadian governments ability to asses risk in potentially dangerous people is woefully inadequate and a simply report based on a few meeting is hardly reasssuring.


Yeah? What other information did you look at, other than his stuff?

And please..don't make me now quote Bertuzzi in characterising your conclusions.

You think Canada's ability to label Omar a terrorist after a couple of brief meetings by CSIS agents towing the political line, is any more reassuring, than those who drafted a report on his potential danger, if released?

Hypocrisy knows no bounds, eh?
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#149 Wetcoaster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:43 PM

You are free to call it uninformed but that is not correct. I looked at the available information (including your stuff) and came up with a different conclusion. Referring to a differnce of opinion as uniformed is so tiring.

Like many Canadians, my view of the Canadian governments ability to asses risk in potentially dangerous people is woefully inadequate and a simply report based on a few meeting is hardly reasssuring.

If you have looked at it and come to such a conclusion then your opinion is uninformed - that can relate to both a failure to consider as well as failure to comprehend. In your case it would seem the latter.
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#150 JAH

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 03:44 PM

You need to understand that child soldiers at international law are not committing War Crimes - they are considered victims of a War Crime. Canada was responsible for pushing for the protocol and the first signatory.

There is a reasonable amount of discenting opinion on what actually constitutes a child soldier. One agreement (Johanesburg I think?) states 18 or under, others say les than 15. I find it interesting that you can join the Canadian Military at 17 however (granted you can't deploy internationaly until you're 18).

Regardless, had he been 18, his acts would indisputeably be a war crime. Further, as mentioned, regardless of age, if you're a beligerant in combat, you are a legit military target. You don't even have to be armed with a traditional weapon (such as a radio operator, a beligerant using a cell phone to detonate explosives, a beligerant quietly sleeping in your bunk as the fire mission rains in, etc.). This is not civvie street. He was engaged in activity contrary to International Law, and this activity also made him subject to offensive military operations.

i don't think this is what the signatories had in mind when they enacted that piece of legislation. Had they had a crystal ball, I suspect they would have found a way to exclude people like Mr. Khadr.
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