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Two teenage boys used texting, online chats to plot brutal assault, murder of Kimberly Proctor


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#211 DonLever

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:04 PM

<br />&quot;An eye for an eye leaves us all blind&quot; and all that.<br />I sympathize with victim's families, but murder doesn't justify more murder in a civilized society.<br />What do we do with psychopaths? It's a good question. If we locked them all away there would be a lot fewer politicians, CEOs, and lawyers in the world.<br />

<br /><br /><br />

People like you who are against capital punishment always trot out the same arguments. What these killers did was not civilized and thus their punishment should not be civilized. Why should we treat them better than the way they treat the victim?

If it was your family member was raped and murder, I am sure your opinion on capital punishment will change.
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#212 Wetcoaster

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:23 PM

<br /><br /><br />

People like you who are against capital punishment always trot out the same arguments. What these killers did was not civilized and thus their punishment should not be civilized. Why should we treat them better than the way they treat the victim?

If it was your family member was raped and murder, I am sure your opinion on capital punishment will change.

If murder is wrong (an offence in malum se - i.e. wrong in itself) then state sanctioned murder as punishment is worse because the state should know better. The idea of the state killing its own citizens as punishment for a crime (any crime) is barbaric. Quite simply one would expect a society to be better than its worst members.

We do not kill persons convicted of murder because we are civilized society and we have evolved.

The official position of the Government of Canada:

The abolition of the death penalty is a significant development in the advancement of human rights. Everyone's right to life is enshrined in Section 7 of our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This fundamental right is also enunciated in Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. Everyone's right to life is enshrined in Section 7 of our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. This fundamental right is also enunciated in Article 3 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 6 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.


In 1966 a compromise bill that limited the death sentence to murderers of on-duty police officers and prison guards passed by the slimmest margins. A young justice minister named Pierre Elliott Trudeau called it "one step further from violence and barbarism."

Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau said in Parliament during the debate leading to the abolition of the death penalty in Canada in 1976:

Well, you may say, let's execute the murderer for the crime he has committed. Let's take a life for a life. Let's remove a savage animal from the human race. I do not deny that society has the right to punish a criminal, and the right to make the punishment fit the crime, but to kill a man for punishment alone is an act of revenge. Nothing else . . .

My primary concern here is not compassion for the murderer. My concern is for the society which adopts vengeance as an acceptable motive for its collective behaviour. If we make that choice, we will snuff out some of that boundless hope and confidence in ourselves and other people which has marked our maturing as a free people.


The death penalty is clearly not a deterrent as study after study shows so the only rationale is imposition for vengeance. Even the Association of Canadian Chiefs of Police agree with that saying:

"It is futile to base an argument for reinstatement on grounds of deterrence".


All that leaves is vengeance and as Prime Minister Trudeau has stated... and that is not justice.

See post #184 for more detail and links.
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#213 Wetcoaster

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:25 PM

More detail on the father of the youngest teen convicted in the Kimberly Proctor murder.

The father of Kruse Wellwood, one of the teens convicted of brutally raping and killing Langford teen Kimberly Proctor, is also a convicted killer.

On Oct. 13 2001, Robert Raymond Dezwaan sexually assaulted a 16-year-old First Nations girl in Merritt, and then beat her to death. He left her badly damaged body covered with rocks and debris off a deserted road — where he later took RCMP after he had pleaded guilty to second-degree murder.

Dezwaan, who is currently serving a life sentence with no chance of parole for 15 years, committed the crime while out on bail for a previous sexual assault. In March 2001, Dezwaan had been arrested for sexual assault with a weapon, confinement, and robbery of a young woman in Kelowna.

Those crimes follow a 1993 incident in which he was convicted of unlawful confinement and break and enter after he broke into a woman's home at night, climbed on top of her and tried to stuff a rag in her mouth.

Dezwaan's crimes bear a striking similarity to the rape and murder of Proctor by Wellwood and his accomplice, Cameron Moffat. They lured Proctor to Wellwood's home, bound her hands and ankles with duct tape and then gagged her with a sock before repeatedly sexually assaulting her. Wellwood strangled her to death.

The details of his father's crime can only be published now that the judge has lifted a publication ban on Wellwood and Moffat's identities — under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, youth offenders can only be identified if they are sentenced as adults.

In a letter written by Wellwood and read by his lawyer in court last week, he mentioned his troubled relationship with his father.

"As a child, I hated my father for what he had done. I felt I was less than him and now I find I have become a worse man," he said. "If you told me 10 years ago that I would commit one of the worst murders in British Columbia, I would not have believed you."

The court heard Monday that Wellwood struggled with his parents' divorce. Wellwood's contact with his father stopped in 2001 — when he was just seven — after his father's imprisonment.

Court-ordered psychiatric and psychological reports concluded Wellwood, an only child, felt disdain and contempt for his mother, who he verbally and physically abused.

Wellwood and his mother lived with his maternal grandparents for 10 years and Wellwood had a poor relationship with his grandfather. At the time of the crime, Wellwood lived with his mother in a single-storey home on Happy Valley Road in Langford.

Bob Jones, Wellwood's defence lawyer, said his client was taunted by other children once they found out about his father. "It would be nice if some psychiatrist looked at his life generally to see if there predictors here, that with intervention at 12 or 13, may have prevented this," said Jones.

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Father+Proctor+killer+raped+murdered+year+girl/4558001/story.html#ixzz1IcTOj5iF
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#214 pimpcurtly

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:35 PM

That is not justice that is vengeance.

Well, you may say, let's execute the murderer for the crime he has committed. Let's take a life for a life. Let's remove a savage animal from the human race. I do not deny that society has the right to punish a criminal, and the right to make the punishment fit the crime, but to kill a man for punishment alone is an act of revenge. Nothing else . . .

My primary concern here is not compassion for the murderer. My concern is for the society which adopts vengeance as an acceptable motive for its collective behaviour. If we make that choice, we will snuff out some of that boundless hope and confidence in ourselves and other people which has marked our maturing as a free people.

~ Prime Minster Pierre Elliott Trudeau during the abolition of capital punishment debate.


I realize that my opinion is not civilized justice. Probably a good reason that I am not practicing law. That is just my emotional response to this brutal murder. These high risk to re-offend psychopaths should be put into hard labour work camps and be forced to work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week until the day they die. Put em to work....and if they end up killing themselves, no skin off the taxpayers back. If that sounds harsh, just put yourself in poor Kimberley's shoes.(I know you are a lawyer, Wetcoaster, and have probably been molded to remove all emotional investment in these situations, so empathy may not have an effect on you).
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#215 Wetcoaster

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 09:43 PM

I realize that my opinion is not civilized justice. Probably a good reason that I am not practicing law. That is just my emotional response to this brutal murder. These high risk to re-offend psychopaths should be put into hard labour work camps and be forced to work 18 hours a day, 7 days a week until the day they die. Put em to work....and if they end up killing themselves, no skin off the taxpayers back. If that sounds harsh, just put yourself in poor Kimberley's shoes.(I know you are a lawyer, Wetcoaster, and have probably been molded to remove all emotional investment in these situations, so empathy may not have an effect on you).

I have all kinds of empathy. I had a cousin brutally murdered and one of my best friend's son was killed for his new jacket a few years back.

My position is all about what sort of society in which we have chosen to live. Like the vast majority of the civilized world we have abolished capital punishment. It has nothing to do with being a lawyer - I held this position before I was a lawyer.

Gulags and brutal work camps are simply are not an option.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 04 April 2011 - 09:44 PM.

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#216 ManUtd

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:28 PM

<br /><br /><br />

People like you who are against capital punishment always trot out the same arguments. What these killers did was not civilized and thus their punishment should not be civilized. Why should we treat them better than the way they treat the victim?

If it was your family member was raped and murder, I am sure your opinion on capital punishment will change
.


I know this was directed at Wet but I too am against capital punishment and felt like addressing that statement. While no family member of mine has been raped and murdered I've been through more than my fair share of trauma at someone else's hands. For over two years on a nearly nightly basis my father would come into my room and rape me. Obviously he didn't killed me but there isn't a day that goes by where I don't wish he had because I feel it would have been a much less cruel fate. It would be a lot easier to be dead than have to suffer every day with the pain and memories of what he did to me. Do I want him to die for what he did to me? No. I hate him but I would never wish any harm on him. Obviously some of this is complicate by him being my father and no matter how much I don't want to I can't stop myself from still having some loving feelings towards him. If anyone were to hurt him for what he did I would have a hard time not seeing them as being just as bad. I would also find it impossible not to feel even more guilty and to blame for that than I do for what I went through. What he did was wrong but that doesn't make revenge any less wrong to me.
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#217 pimpcurtly

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:37 PM

I have all kinds of empathy. I had a cousin brutally murdered and one of my best friend's son was killed for his new jacket a few years back.

My position is all about what sort of society in which we have chosen to live. Like the vast majority of the civilized world we have abolished capital punishment. It has nothing to do with being a lawyer - I held this position before I was a lawyer.

Gulags and brutal work camps are simply are not an option.


Yah, sorry if that came off rude. My dad is in probation so he has always told me that you have to stay professional and remove all emotions when interviewing murderers, child rapists etc. That is not something I would be able to do.

And I, in no way, profess to be a expert when it comes to the ideal placement settings for psychopaths. I just feel that instead of having them sit in cells for years, why not get free labour out of them. They sponge off of society, why not have them give back? Plus hard labour is pretty freaking awful.....if that wouldnt deter them from coming back, not sure anything would. As I said before, not an expert, just my opinion.
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#218 RAMBUTANS

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 10:38 PM

Don't execute them, just send them to Libya or Afghanistan, Maz-Azherif or something is the name of the town. They'll probably be welcomed with open arms.
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#219 Wetcoaster

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 11:10 PM

According to reports, the day the day the two teens killed Kimberly Proctor they attempted to lure another girl to the house.

As family and friends mourn one young victim of killers Kruse Hendrik Wellwood and Cameron Alexander Moffat, no one will know how close another teenage girl came to being their second victim.

Just after the youths were sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole for 10 years in the sadistic rape and killing of 18-year-old Kimberly Proctor, her aunt Jo-Anne Landolt reminded people that the two tried to lure another teen to Wellwood's house, while Proctor's lifeless body was still in the freezer.

"I am so very glad that girl didn't come over ... after you did this to Kim," Landolt said Monday in an emotional speech on the courthouse steps in the pouring rain. She at times addressed Wellwood and Moffat directly, while Proctor's parents Fred and Lucia stood next to her, fighting back tears.

"By doing that she saved her own life and spared her family what we have gone through," Landolt said.

On March 18, 2010, Wellwood and Moffat, who were then 16 and 17, bound, gagged, sexually assaulted and killed Proctor, and mutilated her body, at Wellwood's home while his mother was out. They stored her body in the freezer, and the next day, took it to a bridge along the Galloping Goose trail where they set it on fire. Her remains were found later that day.

Later on the night of March 18, over a period of about three hours, Moffat sent text messages to an ex-girlfriend, trying to convince her to sneak out of her house and come to Wellwood's. She declined.

In previous written submissions to the court, Crown prosecutor Peter Juk said the youths' reasons for trying to lure the other girl "will never truly be known."

On Monday, Landolt said the two being locked up for life is the only way to protect the public.

"I know nothing will bring Kim back but knowing these two are locked up for the maximum amount of time allowed and that the public is safe from them is at least something," she said. "Being that these two planned out and admitted to what they did, I don't think they should ever be released into society."

But she added the sentence still isn't enough for the family.

"Our justice system, including bringing back the death penalty and revamping the young offenders' act, needs a complete overhaul," she said. "Why is it that my family has to pay for these two monsters to be housed with the possibility that they could be set loose in our society?"

Proctor's best friend Melissa Hajdu, 20, said she was happy with the sentences but added that they were long overdue.

"I feel like justice was done and they're finally getting what they deserved," said Hajdu, who knew Proctor since Grade 7. "I can finally sleep."

Landolt said the tough sentences don't make the pain any easier for Proctors' loved ones to bear. They "have to live their lives knowing that someone they cared for deeply was brutally killed," she said.

Landolt said her family will never see Kimberly grow up, have a career, or have children.

"Kimmy was just starting a new part of her life and these two took that away," she said. "She was transitioning from a teen to an adult. On March 18, 2010, was a stopping point for all our memories with Kim. We will never know Kim past her 18 years."

She said there will always be a part of the family that is missing.

"That part died when Kimmy was killed. We cannot let this destroy us, because if it does, those monsters killed more than one person that day."

Erika Dashwood, a friend of Proctor's, attended Pacific Secondary with Proctor and her two killers. She said no one could have guessed Wellwood and Moffat could be capable of such heinous crimes.

"I think the whole community was shocked by it," she said.

Dashwood said she was disgusted to hear that the two bragged about their crimes to friends online.

Dashwood said she has known Moffat since elementary school. She said he skipped school often but was never one to be violent.

Another friend of Proctor's, Shae Williams, said Wellwood and Moffat showed anti-social behaviour and mostly hung out with each other.

"I'm pretty sure they just hung out together. They were good friends. Nobody bothered them and they didn't bother anyone," Williams said.

There is still little hint of the motive behind the crime, other than the fact the two had sexual fantasies about killing people.

Proctor had flirted with both boys in the fall of 2009 before declining their advances. They said they picked her because they thought she would be an "easy target."

http://www.timescolonist.com/Teen+killers+tried+lure+another+girl+scene+Proctor+murder/4558054/story.html#ixzz1IctZm0qF
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#220 c0medyClub

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Posted 04 April 2011 - 11:33 PM

<br />At first I didnt like Wetcoasters long posts but as I read more of them it gave me a much more in depth understanding of how our justice system works. Its not perfect but its a work in progress and is much better than most.<br /><br /><br /><br /> In the back of my mind is the thought that her Dad would like the sentence to be just 5 minutes alone with each of the boys. Maybe with some power tools thrown in.<br />


Power drill to the teeth.

Bamboo under the finger nails.

Potato peeler for skin 'dermabrasion'


Ouch.
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#221 DonLever

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 12:02 AM

The capital punishment argument here is not really relevant because there is no capital punishment in Canada.

What people should focus on is the 10 year life sentence these guys got.  Why wasn't it 25 years for 1st degree murder that adult's get? 

By pleading guilty under the Young Offenders Act, the killers only got 10 years before a chance for parole.No wonder they were caught on tape laughing about possible time behind bars.  They know they will likely get out in ten years when they will be still young in their twenties.

Instead of focusing on capital punishment, we shoud question whether the Young Offenders Act be scrapped or changed.

Edited by DonLever, 05 April 2011 - 12:03 AM.

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#222 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 12:20 AM

The capital punishment argument here is not really relevant because there is no capital punishment in Canada.

What people should focus on is the 10 year life sentence these guys got.  Why wasn't it 25 years for 1st degree murder that adult's get? 

By pleading guilty under the Young Offenders Act, the killers only got 10 years before a chance for parole.No wonder they were caught on tape laughing about possible time behind bars.  They know they will likely get out in ten years when they will be still young in their twenties.

Instead of focusing on capital punishment, we should question whether the Young Offenders Act be scrapped or changed.

They did not get a 10 year life sentence. They each received a life sentence with ineligibility to apply for parole until after ten years. Simply because there is parole eligibility does not mean they will be paroled. Given the court ordered psychiatric assessments and the comments of the judge, it will be surprising if either is ever paroled. Mr Justice Johnson noted the two teens have little hope of rehabilitation and will remain high risks to re-offend for the next 25-30 years.

That sentence is mandated by the Criminal Code of Canada for any person 16-17 years of age convicted of first degree murder, not the Youth Criminal Justice Act. The Young Offender's Act was replaced by the YCJA in 2003. In this case it seems the YCJA worked as it was intended to work with dangerous offenders given adult sentences for a horrific crime and making sure that protection of the public is paramount in such cases.

Edited by Wetcoaster, 05 April 2011 - 12:22 AM.

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#223 lateralus

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:06 AM

Because we're better people than they are.
Psychopaths feel no remorse and regret nothing. I doubt they'll kill themselves.

Are we?

We keep criminals in cages where rape occurs (1), and a lot of prisoners suffer mental and physical abuse.

(1)http://www.menstuff....prisonrape.html


Yeah we are much better for doing this.

Edited by lateralus, 05 April 2011 - 08:54 AM.

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#224 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:44 AM

That is not justice that is vengeance.

Well, you may say, let's execute the murderer for the crime he has committed. Let's take a life for a life. Let's remove a savage animal from the human race. I do not deny that society has the right to punish a criminal, and the right to make the punishment fit the crime, but to kill a man for punishment alone is an act of revenge. Nothing else . . .

My primary concern here is not compassion for the murderer. My concern is for the society which adopts vengeance as an acceptable motive for its collective behaviour. If we make that choice, we will snuff out some of that boundless hope and confidence in ourselves and other people which has marked our maturing as a free people.

~ Prime Minster Pierre Elliott Trudeau during the abolition of capital punishment debate.


You should find people that actually had morals that match the population (or followed the laws of the nation for that matter) for pointificating......
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#225 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:48 AM

They did not get a 10 year life sentence. They each received a life sentence with ineligibility to apply for parole until after ten years. Simply because there is parole eligibility does not mean they will be paroled. Given the court ordered psychiatric assessments and the comments of the judge, it will be surprising if either is ever paroled. Mr Justice Johnson noted the two teens have little hope of rehabilitation and will remain high risks to re-offend for the next 25-30 years.

That sentence is mandated by the Criminal Code of Canada for any person 16-17 years of age convicted of first degree murder, not the Youth Criminal Justice Act. The Young Offender's Act was replaced by the YCJA in 2003. In this case it seems the YCJA worked as it was intended to work with dangerous offenders given adult sentences for a horrific crime and making sure that protection of the public is paramount in such cases.


How long until they can get dangeroius offender status and we don't have to worry about them even being parolled?
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#226 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 10:40 AM

How long until they can get dangeroius offender status and we don't have to worry about them even being parolled?

Never. They are already serving indeterminate sentences.
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#227 stawns

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 11:07 AM

The capital punishment argument here is not really relevant because there is no capital punishment in Canada.

What people should focus on is the 10 year life sentence these guys got.  Why wasn't it 25 years for 1st degree murder that adult's get? 

By pleading guilty under the Young Offenders Act, the killers only got 10 years before a chance for parole.No wonder they were caught on tape laughing about possible time behind bars.  They know they will likely get out in ten years when they will be still young in their twenties.

Instead of focusing on capital punishment, we shoud question whether the Young Offenders Act be scrapped or changed.



.......and another "Canada is soft on crime" claim that has no basis in reality. These two will likely never taste freedom again, in their lives.
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#228 JAH

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 11:09 AM

.......and another "Canada is soft on crime" claim that has no basis in reality. These two will likely never taste freedom again, in their lives.

I think the 'soft on crime' crowd typicaly target the lesser offences/punishments. The car thief caught for the 30th time who gets 6 months with half 'time served' kinda thing.
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#229 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 12:14 PM

Here is a video report with interviews and information on the father of Kruse Wellwood serving time for a similar murder as well as audio recording of them in the back of police van:


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#230 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:45 PM

Never. They are already serving indeterminate sentences.



For raping, torturing (something illegal even in times of war!), and then killing a completly innocent young women there should be a determinate sentance. That sentance should be forever. That way there's never a need to hear about these people again, no victim impact statements, they just go away forever. ZERO chance of parole.

Lock them up, toss away the key. No need to spend money on programs, rehab, physc analysis, nothing. Just sit in a cell and that's it.

One would think that would be the comprimise for the death penalty (which I don't agree with only because the courts make mistakes and that's one you can't take back).
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#231 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:46 PM

.......and another "Canada is soft on crime" claim that has no basis in reality. These two will likely never taste freedom again, in their lives.



Even one in a million chance is FAR too much IMO.
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#232 JAH

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:47 PM

... there should be a determinate sentance. That sentance should be forever.


I agree with most of what you said, but thought this was kinda funny.

:)
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#233 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 01:57 PM

I agree with most of what you said, but thought this was kinda funny.

:)



Oh if you want to have a match geek contest some time in another thread I will happily oblige that.....

But to happily math you on that one....

"We should determine that there is no need for a parole hearing after any amount of time as there is no reason to allow freedom to these menaces of society".

I meant determinate in the more "we know when they should be let out" in a "whenever they cease to be living" kind of way (even if we don't know for sure when that will be).
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#234 JAH

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:07 PM

Oh if you want to have a match geek contest some time in another thread I will happily oblige that.....

But to happily math you on that one....

"We should determine that there is no need for a parole hearing after any amount of time as there is no reason to allow freedom to these menaces of society".

I meant determinate in the more "we know when they should be let out" in a "whenever they cease to be living" kind of way (even if we don't know for sure when that will be).

I've always been a proponent of the 'life is life' concept, drawbacks be damned. I understand that a convict who knows he is never getting out may be tougher to deal with, but that's why we (should) hire men with no qualms about meeting violence with blinding violence to put the appropriate deterant in place for these scumbags. The ambiguity of the sentencing might serve a legal purpose, and I get that, but it certainly makes it a lot muddier waters for the rest of us.
For some of these people, the concept of rehabilitation is a perversion of the word.

Edited by JAH, 05 April 2011 - 02:10 PM.

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#235 Wetcoaster

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:32 PM

For raping, torturing (something illegal even in times of war!), and then killing a completly innocent young women there should be a determinate sentance. That sentance should be forever. That way there's never a need to hear about these people again, no victim impact statements, they just go away forever. ZERO chance of parole.

Lock them up, toss away the key. No need to spend money on programs, rehab, physc analysis, nothing. Just sit in a cell and that's it.

One would think that would be the comprimise for the death penalty (which I don't agree with only because the courts make mistakes and that's one you can't take back).

Their sentences are forever. That is why they are called life sentences. :blink:
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#236 JAH

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 02:44 PM

Their sentences are forever. That is why they are called life sentences. :blink:

lol, but i think most folks don't realize that 'life' means 'life in the system', not necessarily life in prison.
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#237 Bob.Loblaw

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:19 PM

I found the highlighted part particularly interesting and disturbing.


Disturbing indeed. Had the father been a better man, this might not have happened.
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#238 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:48 PM

Their sentences are forever. That is why they are called life sentences. :blink:



Unless they get paroled while they are still alive. They are eligible for it in ten years. What if in ten years they have turned their lives around and adressed their mental problems?

There's a chance they will get out someday. And they will be alive. If it was a true life sentance there wouldn't be parole hearings, the only way to leave would be in a casket!

Much like you can pay attention and be legally negiligent you can have a legal life sentance and still get out before you die. Tossing around the legal term means absolutely nothing since they can very well indeed (even it's rare it still happens) be released while still alive even under this so called "life" sentance.
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#239 ronthecivil

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:49 PM

lol, but i think most folks don't realize that 'life' means 'life in the system', not necessarily life in prison.



Oh, I realise it. That's the freaking problem!
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#240 JAH

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 04:53 PM

Oh, I realise it. That's the freaking problem!

LOL.

I know you do, I meant others.

I think we should do away with the whole 'time off for good behaviour' concept. I don't know about you, but I'm a little skeptical about a guy who did a real bad thing, but is now being good when the incentive is early release. I, for one, don't require incentive to act civily and ethically. If they really are 'reformed', neither would they, it would come naturally.

10 years is 10 years. Life is life. Full stop.

Edited by JAH, 05 April 2011 - 04:54 PM.

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