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Poll: Connauton or Granani (198 member(s) have cast votes)

Which defenceman has more upside,or do You think will be a more valuable Defenceman in the future ?

  1. 22 yr old Connauton (167 votes [84.34%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 84.34%

  2. 25 yr old Gragnani (31 votes [15.66%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 15.66%

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#1111 JamesB

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:44 AM

Shea Weber!
that being said,
What did a 25 year old Gragnani do that was impressive while he was getting his RFA games in?

Tanev is far and away our best D prospect and he's going to be a very steady top 4 d-man for us in the future.


Right. Tanev is the best young player. I would not call him a prospect anymore. Playing shutdown with Hamhuis he was absolutely lights out. Hamhuis and Tanev were even better as a shutdown pairing that Hamhuis and Bieksa. (The only problem is that playing with anyone other than Hamhuis really reduces Bieksa's avlue to the team.) If AV was not so reluctant to give young players a decent shot he would have been with the team all year. (AV likes players to "pay their dues".)

Gragnani looked very promising when he was in the AHL but he has not developed. At age 25 he should not be all that far from peak performance and he should be showing more now if he really is destined to be a star. And he has not improved much in the past couple of years. Connauton, on the other hand, continues to make good progress and looks good for a guy who is only 22. Apparently his defensive play improved a lot this year to complement his offensive upside. I see him passing Gragnani next year in value to the team. No guarantees, but on his current trajectory he projects as a solid top 4 D by the time he is 25 -- Gragnani's current age.
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#1112 stexx

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:50 AM

You're either the world's biggest optimist or totally clueless. I'm going with the latter.


id go with optimist. but i have watched buffalo a lot and gragnani got the ballard treatment in buffalo. When things went sour when miller got hurt he was playing decent hockey but his risk/reward is high just like ballard so he was sat to stop the bleeding and to simplify buffalo's defensive game.

Defensively gragnani looks like an AHL player, offensively he is better than connauton. I am optimistic that the canucks with their puck possesion game can help gragnani minimize his defensive blunders which right now are plentiful.
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#1113 Rey

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:18 PM

You can't have all stay at home dmen. A dman like Beiksa jumps up on the play and puts up points but he also has a really good guy backing him up in Hamhuis who understands that he has to play the stay at home role when Kevin ventures into the offensive zone. Similarily, Tanev plays a stay at home style and would be a good guy to back up a guy like Conn or Grags, he is going to have to get more experience before he is ready to do that though as well as bulk up a bit.
When an offensive dman jumps up, CDC jumps all over them if they get caught deep but really they should also be looking at that players partner for not fulfilling their role as a backup. If you want offense from the defense, that presents the problem of finding a reliable dman to pair with......if it works as well as Hamhuis/ Bieksa, I couldn't be happier.


I don't know why anyone still has the idea that you have to be either a stay home defense man or a offensive defense man. It's like the two-way defense man never existed. By your theory, Dan Hamhuis, a shutdown defense man put up almost 40 points. Pretty incredible stuff if that were true.

Teams that win, have defense man who think defense first. Thinking defense first does not have to mean, a shut down role. It's the reason Boston destroyed the Canuck's in the finals. The D practically killed all the forwards.

When a defense man jumps in, It's a forward that covers, not the defense man's partners. If it was only the defense man partner, we would be seeing two on ones all the time. The Canuck's went to the finals last year because they started off being defense first. This includes Bieksa, who is at his best with a defense first mentality. They absolutely blew up once they tried being more offense, and that's exactly what they did this year and it's the reason the Canuck's are out of the first round.

BTW - Tanev does not play a stay at home style. How can he possible be? Did you not see how many chances he had in the playoffs? You tell me a stay at home defense man gets offensive chances?

You hope Connauton and Gragnani make those adjustments and become two-way defenders. The one dimensional guys are disappearing in the NHL. The stay home defenders generally are slow, and the PP quarterbacks are way too unreliable, usually only on the PP. If you want examples - Robyn Regehr for stay home, and MA Bergeron as a puck mover. I still like Stay home guys, but with the new NHL, they are destined to disappear.

Edited by Rey, 04 May 2012 - 12:36 PM.

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#1114 MikeJones

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

I just want a prospect with high hockey IQ; the physical attributes can be worked on.
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#1115 bluesman60

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:57 PM

I don't know why anyone still has the idea that you have to be either a stay home defense man or a offensive defense man. It's like the two-way defense man never existed. By your theory, Dan Hamhuis, a shutdown defense man put up almost 40 points. Pretty incredible stuff if that were true.

Teams that win, have defense man who think defense first. Thinking defense first does not have to mean, a shut down role. It's the reason Boston destroyed the Canuck's in the finals. The D practically killed all the forwards.

When a defense man jumps in, It's a forward that covers, not the defense man's partners. If it was only the defense man partner, we would be seeing two on ones all the time. The Canuck's went to the finals last year because they started off being defense first. This includes Bieksa, who is at his best with a defense first mentality. They absolutely blew up once they tried being more offense, and that's exactly what they did this year and it's the reason the Canuck's are out of the first round.

BTW - Tanev does not play a stay at home style. How can he possible be? Did you not see how many chances he had in the playoffs? You tell me a stay at home defense man gets offensive chances?

You hope Connauton and Gragnani make those adjustments and become two-way defenders. The one dimensional guys are disappearing in the NHL. The stay home defenders generally are slow, and the PP quarterbacks are way too unreliable, usually only on the PP. If you want examples - Robyn Regehr for stay home, and MA Bergeron as a puck mover. I still like Stay home guys, but with the new NHL, they are destined to disappear.

Ya sure but there are not exactly a cupboard full of Shea Weber's out there either so you have to work with what you have. Of course a stay at home dman still gets chances but mostly from the blueline.
If you come across any spare 'Shea Weber' dmen, please let MG know so that he can go sign them. And by the way, Tanev is not tearing it up out there on offense, he is getting chances but that is all. He is a good reliable dman but he isn't going to make up for Erhoffs points...at least not at this point.
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#1116 canucklesmith

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:19 PM

After watching MAG's play for the hand full of games he got at the end of the year, I think Connauton is the guy to try next year. IMO
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#1117 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:26 PM

:picard:


What, what did I say wrong? It's just a personal opinion, dont go face palming if you dont have anything to back up why your doing it.
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#1118 Langdon Algur

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:22 PM

I honestly hate both players because i choose reliability over high risk.

Gragnani is a smarter player, and has the tools to be a better defense man. He's very frustrating to watch because he avoids contact. Plus, who the hell wants a defense man playing forward? I sure as hell don't, i hope that gets fixed. Get in position and use the body please.

Kevin Connauton is different. He's a physical guy, and a hard worker. He's a guy you like, but might not have the hockey sense to be as good defensively, and will make brain farts and take stupid penalties. Kind of like Bieksa.

Chris Tanev and Frank Corrado are the type of defense mans i like.


This^although I wouldn't have gone as far as saying hate, but I agree both players at this point are way to risky to be given NHL icetime. KCon has potential to develop a decent defensive game but it's far from a sure thing. Sadly I think it's too late for Grags but he has shown brief flashes of brilliance with Buffalo so all hope is not lost just yet.
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#1119 Langdon Algur

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 04:34 PM

Kas has played less than 50 NHL games therefore according the criteria in the OP yes he is still a prospect. I would personally rate him as number 2 on the list.
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#1120 thehamburglar

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 05:56 PM

Gragani obviously is better now. But I say K-Conn can become better.
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#1121 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:35 AM

maybe connauton next next season.........but not next season
sign suter 3 yr 13mil
sign salo 2 yr 5mil
release rome
release alberts

2012-2013

edler-suter
bieksa-salo
ballard-gragnani
hamhuis-tanev


With those d-pairs our forwards would have to look like:
D Sedin - H Sedin - Burrows
Kasian - Kesler - Booth
Higgins - Påhlsson/ Schroeder - Hansen
Lappy.
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#1122 Pineapples

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:52 AM

I'll pick Connauton since he's younger and will have more time to develop. There is still hope for MAG, just not as much imo.
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#1123 Edler's Mind Tricks

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:01 AM

The problem is he's not a prospect anymore, he's 25 years old. So hoping that he's all of a sudden going to be a top 6 powerplay quartebacking defenceman is like hoping Ryan Parent all of a sudden becomes a top pairing shutdown D-man. It's very unlikely to happen.

It's time to start promoting from within and giving guys like Connauton and Sauve some ice time. Even if they struggle, that's part of development. The idea that our prospects are going to come in and be 100% ready and not make any mistakes is the wrong way to think.


Um really? Defensemen are much later blooming then forwards.... Maybe not quite a majority of defensemen don't hit their prime until their early thirties, as opposed to forwards hitting their prime from 24-27.

25 is much to early to give up on a defensemen. I think he will be in our lineup quite a bit next year (if not traded), and should have a top 4 worthy PPG average.
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#1124 hsedin33

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:02 AM

grags seems like a dbag. kcon just seems awesome.
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#1125 Rey

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:13 AM

Ya sure but there are not exactly a cupboard full of Shea Weber's out there either so you have to work with what you have. Of course a stay at home dman still gets chances but mostly from the blueline.
If you come across any spare 'Shea Weber' dmen, please let MG know so that he can go sign them. And by the way, Tanev is not tearing it up out there on offense, he is getting chances but that is all. He is a good reliable dman but he isn't going to make up for Erhoffs points...at least not at this point.


You don't need to be a Shea Weber to be a two-way defense man. There are several of potential 40 point two-way defense man out there. Defense men aren't meant to put up big numbers, and with the amount of two-way defenders in the league. It depends what type of minutes they play. A shut down guy like Mitchell can put up points too, if he is given PP minutes but why the hell would you have him on the PP?

Tanev is, what he is. Right now, a 3rd pair defense man. Of Course he isn't going to replace Ehrhoff, he's not even asked to. With limited minutes, and zero power play time what do you expect him to do? Ever thought of the why people thought Keith Ballard was misused since he's been here?
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#1126 Rey

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:14 AM

What, what did I say wrong? It's just a personal opinion, dont go face palming if you dont have anything to back up why your doing it.


I don't know is not an opinion. I don't need to back anything up, your post is completely meaningless. You could have posted nothing, and it would come out the same.

Edited by Rey, 05 May 2012 - 03:16 AM.

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#1127 Rey

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 03:20 AM

This^although I wouldn't have gone as far as saying hate, but I agree both players at this point are way to risky to be given NHL icetime. KCon has potential to develop a decent defensive game but it's far from a sure thing. Sadly I think it's too late for Grags but he has shown brief flashes of brilliance with Buffalo so all hope is not lost just yet.


Why shouldn't i have gone as far as hate? I do hate defense man who can't play defense. This has been my feeling, and it will always be my opinion.

Edited by Rey, 05 May 2012 - 03:36 AM.

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#1128 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 12:14 PM

I don't know is not an opinion. I don't need to back anything up, your post is completely meaningless. You could have posted nothing, and it would come out the same.


Yeah it is, do you not know anything? by me saying I don't know I'm saying that its too tough to choose, I like them both, I can't decide between the two. that's my opinion, and your post is just hate.

Really your post is more meaningless than mine because you are arguing something really stupid. And you didn't post anything that contributes at all to this thread, why didn't you just message me instead of waste peoples time reading your meaningless and stupid judgment in this thread.
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#1129 -Vintage Canuck-

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 01:42 PM

Connauton for sure!
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#1130 Edler's Mind Tricks

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:17 PM

Why shouldn't i have gone as far as hate? I do hate defense man who can't play defense. This has been my feeling, and it will always be my opinion.

I don't... I don't hate forwards who don't score (Malhotra), or defencemen who don't defend (Karlsson). (A goalie who doesn't stop the puck is another thing entirely!).

Having one specialist of each type on your roster can be a good idea. Have a purely defensive defensemen, have a physical specimen who isn't excellent offensively or defensively, have a offensive defensemen who can barely hold his own in the defensive zone. I don't see why you would hate on that. Do you hate on having forward specialists such as the Sedins and Malhotra?
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#1131 Rey

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 10:59 PM

Yeah it is, do you not know anything? by me saying I don't know I'm saying that its too tough to choose, I like them both, I can't decide between the two. that's my opinion, and your post is just hate.

Really your post is more meaningless than mine because you are arguing something really stupid. And you didn't post anything that contributes at all to this thread, why didn't you just message me instead of waste peoples time reading your meaningless and stupid judgment in this thread.


I didn't really have to respond to you at all. The small face palm was enough and you also complained about that.

If you don't know anything, don't say anything. Now, i do not wish to to message you because i do not want to associate myself with people like you. So,good bye until you say something meaningful but all i did was like you said "back up my facepalm".

Cheers, and :picard:

Edited by Rey, 05 May 2012 - 11:00 PM.

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#1132 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:02 PM

I didn't really have to respond to you at all. The small face palm was enough and you also complained about that.

If you don't know anything, don't say anything. Now, i do not wish to to message you because i do not want to associate myself with people like you. So,good bye until you say something meaningful.


Haha your pathetic, and ya you shouldn't have responded, you shouldn't even be on this forum at all since you clearly don't know what an opinion is.

And I'm glad you won't message me, it's not worth my time reading your meaningless comments since you don't have anything to say about what the thread is actually about, nothing whatsoever.

Edited by Smashian Kassian, 05 May 2012 - 11:03 PM.

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#1133 Rey

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 11:15 PM

I don't... I don't hate forwards who don't score (Malhotra), or defencemen who don't defend (Karlsson). (A goalie who doesn't stop the puck is another thing entirely!).

Having one specialist of each type on your roster can be a good idea. Have a purely defensive defensemen, have a physical specimen who isn't excellent offensively or defensively, have a offensive defensemen who can barely hold his own in the defensive zone. I don't see why you would hate on that. Do you hate on having forward specialists such as the Sedins and Malhotra?



See, here's the problem. What does me hating defense man, who can't defense have anything to do with forwards or any other sort fo "specialist". It's completely different. Not every forward can score, and if they all could, they would be making top dollars. There isn't enough guys that can do that. Every forward wants to score, and it's stupid to think otherwise. Whats the excuse for defense man, not being able to play defense? If the defenseman is so eager to score, why isn't he playing forward. It's a team game, and you see Nashville benching guys for Radoluv and Kostitsyn for not being able to play a team first game by not playing defense hockey. So, what is the defense man's excuse?

Ken Hitchcock says it best about one of my favorites.


http://www.silversev...-offenseman-now
"The thing that's relevant for [Pietrangelo], if you're describing a defenseman, you're talking about a guy who collects points, plays against the other team's best players and kill penalties. That's what he does. He QBs the No. 1 unit on the power play, plays against the other teams' best players. He kills a minute-plus of every penalty kill. What more can you ask for? He does that. He's not protected. Nobody protects him. That's what he does. If you're looking for a legitimate defenseman, then to me, that's what this guy is. He's the word 'defenseman.' He's not an 'offenseman.' He's a complete player"


BTW - I have no problem with Erik Karlsson, and he can play a two-way game. His defensive game is really underrated, because all that stat guys are just looking at points. He's still young and it's going to improve. He's not going to be a Mike Green and struggle with the defensive side of the game to the point that his offense game is completely hindered.

In the new NHL, guys that can't play defense do not last in the league despite putting up points. MA Bergeron is a perfect example. Put up big points but is only used in power play situations. These guys are NOT the guys you want on your team. There's a reason why Gragnani was a healthy scratch in Buffalo, even when he put up good points in the playoffs just last year. These guys won't last in the league unless they learn to play defense because in playoff hockey, they get ripped apart so easily due to the match up game.

Edited by Rey, 05 May 2012 - 11:43 PM.

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#1134 HockeyHobo73

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:53 AM

I hope Lack gets brought up and gets some quality NHL experience in terms of games played and learning from the best. One more season of being starter in the AHL would greatly benefit his development, but in my own opinion, being around the Canucks for a full season and getting 17-25 games, while practising with the team will only make him that much better. I think that the experience he will gain while practising with the Canucks is not too far behind playing games in the AHL at this point in his career. Also, he would signifcantly add to the entertainment value of interviews and other media related things. Him, Bieksa and Burrows will be a triple threat when it comes to making us all smile. I think the Canucks need a youngster with Lack's personality to be infused into the locker room.
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#1135 kacvan

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:10 PM

I'd love to see Kevin Connauton and Yann Sauve get some time in Vancouver. I think it would help their development if they make the team or stick around for a few games at the begining of the season.
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#1136 canucklehead44

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 10:53 PM

Schroeder and Sweatt

Sedin Sedin Burrows - line up against other team's checking line
Hansen Kesler Higgins - line up against other team's top line
Booth Schroeder Kassian - line up against other team's 4th line
Sweatt Malhotra Lapierre - line up against other team's 2nd line

I think the Booth - Schoeder - Kassian line could have some chemistry, with Booth being the go-to guy offensively. Schroeder has the speed and shiftiness, Kassian has the strength and physicality. Schroeder may also be able to help out the team's second power play. They would play against other team's 4th lines when possible as they have some defensive deficiencies (but potential to be ok).

I really like the idea of having a speedster on the fourth line. The fourth line is used MUCH differently than other team's, there is no room for goons or defensively irresponsible players. Malhotra is a faceoff king and defensive specialist and having Lapierre on the wing saves them from putting a winger in the circle when Malhotra gets waved. Lapierre is also a solid defensive player. Sweatt is a pure speedster who is pretty good defensively. His role would be to get the puck out of the zone and try to get a shot on goal with Lapierre running in for the rebound to get the goalie to cover.

Edited by canucklehead44, 06 May 2012 - 10:54 PM.

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#1137 D-Money

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 10:01 AM

I have high hopes for Gragnani. You can't simply judge him based on the few games and low minutes he spent on a new team after the deadline. It takes time to adapt to a new team. However, with 3 points in the last 4 games, he showed signs of being a quick learner (offensively, anyways). Contrast that with Ballard, who has 3 points in his last 19 games.

People say he's finished with his development, but he spent a portion of his development years playing forward, and is still learning the nuances of a defenseman's game. Actually, his situation reminds me a lot of Mark Streit. D/F who took a while to break into the NHL, primarily thought of as a PP specialist, with obvious offensive skills, but needing work on the defensive side.

Montreal gave up on Streit, and he went on to prove that he was a bonafide #2 defenseman.
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#1138 Alex the Great

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:29 PM

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#1139 22sedins33

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:07 PM

I already (in this thread, I believe) voiced my opinion that we shouldn't use a first round pick on Andreas Athanasiou. That said, after he's been a healthy scratch for almost the entire OHL playoffs, I really think that odds are good he could slip down into the second round at least. If we could pick him up there I would be very pleased. No question, this guy has speed and hands that could get him into the NHL. He'd be a solid second round pick.
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#1140 The Nuckist

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 04:35 PM

Why are you only showing 1 - 5 on what you have called "Top 10 Canucks Prospects"?

as for your list, I realize that most rankings are done by a prospects current value which It seems like you have. I find myself prone to ranking prospects by what sort of career I could see them having. With that in mind, I think we have 2 defensemen, McNally and Corrado, who still need time to develop but look as if they could have some very promising careers. I think due to K-con's sub par defensive set and JS's lack of size, that their success in the NHL will be somewhat limited. That being said, McNally and Corrado might not even develop into NHL defensemen...........but I like to think they will and that they will be really good :towel:
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"There are a lot of selfless players on our roster ... I think, to a man, if you asked the guys, they would rather win a game 1-0 than lose a game and get a hat trick. That's the type of guys we have in our room and that's the type of player you need to be successful."
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