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#691 Teemu Selänne

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 02:08 PM

Some players (specifically goal scorers) just never destroy the CHL before making the jump. For various reasons, like they have a very hardcore summer or their games are just made for pro after a couple of years in the CHL and a couple of playoff runs.

Here are some examples of CHL players who never put up Sam Gagner like numbers:

Grabner - 55 points in 55 games
Neal - 65 points in 45 games
Callahan - 84 points in 62 games
Doan - 94 points in 71 games
C. Stewart - 82 points in 61 games

Jensen is on pace for 73 points in 66 games which is slightly worse than some of those players, but he was apparently injured for a while BEFORE the WJC.

It wouldn't surprise if he puts up more PPG in the 2nd half + has a good playoff. KInd of like last year where he scored 7 times in 10 playoff games and had 11 points.

Of course, with the Canucks' current depth it doesn't look like he'll make it, but if there's a couple (or one big) trade made considering Jensen's ability to play LW or RW you never know.
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#692 D-Money

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 02:56 PM

/\
Agreed

Just because a player is around, or just slightly above a point-per-game in the CHL, doesn't mean that they won't be productive NHL-ers.

Dustin Brown
2000-01 Guelph Storm OHL 53GP, 45Pts
2001-02 Guelph Storm OHL 63GP, 73Pts
2002-03 Guelph Storm OHL 58GP, 76Pts

Jeff Carter
2001-02 Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds OHL 63GP, 35Pts
2002-03 Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds OHL 61GP, 71Pts
2003-04 Sault Ste. Marie Greyhounds OHL 57GP, 66Pts

Ryan Getzlaf
2001-02 Calgary Hitmen WHL 63GP, 18Pts
2002-03 Calgary Hitmen WHL 70GP, 68Pts
2003-04 Calgary Hitmen WHL 49GP, 75Pts  
2004-05 Calgary Hitmen WHL 51GP, 54Pts

Edited by D-Money, 06 February 2012 - 04:54 PM.

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#693 Dasein

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 04:49 PM

it's not the only option, but it's the only one that looks realistic at this point. then again, maybe he'll have an insane offseason.. never rule anything out.


He's not making the NHL as a 19 year old on the Vancouver Canucks, let's put it that way. There is no amount of summer training that is going to get him prepared to beat out Daniel Sedin, Alex Burrows, Chris Higgins, David Booth and Jannik Hansen off the top 9 winger positions. And if either Raymond re-signs or Cody is promoted to Kesler's wing, then the top 9 wingers are set. No changes and Jensen doesn't make the team.

Not only that, we have Billy Sweatt, who already had a call up, and Anton Rodin waiting in the AHL. Schroeder, if Hodgson gets promoted to Kesler's wing, has a chance at 3rd line center or even the 2nd line RW himself.

Jensen might play in the NHL next season if he is traded to a non-playoff team - you never know. 0% chance with us though. I am counting him out for 2012-2013 barring a myriad of injuries plaguing the Canucks in the off-season. Maybe then he'll get 9 games until our guys get healthy.
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#694 Kent.S

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:26 PM

Jensen is at 47 gp 24g 23a. The -5 is a little scary but I'm sure he'll turn it on.

The year previous he had 29 goals in 61 games so it's nice to see he's only 5 goals short of that mark in 14 less games.


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#695 Dasein

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:57 PM

Yup. Definitely 1 more year in the OHL.
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#696 Kent.S

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:30 PM

Yup. Definitely 1 more year in the OHL.


Seems like it but you never know. He could move up to the AHL with a strong playoff run and off season.
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#697 Teemu Selänne

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:18 PM

Seems like it but you never know. He could move up to the AHL with a strong playoff run and off season.


Too young!

I could see him getting some of his 9 games (not necessarily all 9) and then signing a PTO with the Wolves for next year's playoffs, if he isn't on a Mem Cup team.
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#698 Kent.S

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 01:16 AM

Too young!

I could see him getting some of his 9 games (not necessarily all 9) and then signing a PTO with the Wolves for next year's playoffs, if he isn't on a Mem Cup team.


What do you mean he's to young?
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#699 Trelane42

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 11:57 AM

What do you mean he's to young?


Was one of the younger players drafted. Flames savior to be, Bartschi, for example, is almost a half year older. Can make a big difference at that age. Bigger players may need more time. Whatever the case, a 3rd season in the OHL seems warranted. No room on the Nux top 9 next year.

Per Ferraro: if you want a guy to be a scorer in the NHL he should get enough seasoning to dominate the previous level.

He's not close to dominating, at present.
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#700 D-Money

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:43 PM

Seems like it but you never know. He could move up to the AHL with a strong playoff run and off season.

No. We DO know.

Jensen was drafted out of the CHL. As such, he's legally not allowed to join the AHL, unless he's 20, or will be turning 20 by the end of the calendar year. Jensen doesn't turn 20 until March of 2013.

Hodgson totally dominated the OHL the year after being drafted. But still, it was either make the Canucks, or go back to Brampton - he wasn't allowed to be assigned to the Moose for another year.

Bartschi born in Oct 1992, so the Flames will have the option to assign him to the AHL next season.
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#701 FeStealth

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:10 PM

No. We DO know.

Jensen was drafted out of the CHL. As such, he's legally not allowed to join the AHL, unless he's 20, or will be turning 20 by the end of the calendar year. Jensen doesn't turn 20 until March of 2013.

Hodgson totally dominated the OHL the year after being drafted. But still, it was either make the Canucks, or go back to Brampton - he wasn't allowed to be assigned to the Moose for another year.

Bartschi born in Oct 1992, so the Flames will have the option to assign him to the AHL next season.


There's 1 exception to that rule... sort of....

If his junior team has been eliminated from the post-season and the Chicago Wolves are in their playoffs, he can sign a PTO and potentially play some games, like Hodgson and Schroeder, or like Sauve and Connauton (who were in the pressbox).
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#702 avelanch

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Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:54 PM

There's 1 exception to that rule... sort of....

If his junior team has been eliminated from the post-season and the Chicago Wolves are in their playoffs, he can sign a PTO and potentially play some games, like Hodgson and Schroeder, or like Sauve and Connauton (who were in the pressbox).

yeah, he could do that this year, but he'd still have to go back to the OHL next season if he doesn't make the canucks.
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#703 Teemu Selänne

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 01:38 AM

What do you mean he's to young?


He'll be too young to play in the AHL next season, legally.
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#704 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 04:26 PM

They should change the NHL-AHL-CHL agreement and make an exception for 1 or 2 top prospects from every NHL team - allow them to play in the AHL the year after they're drafted, without having to wait till the season they turn 20.
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#705 Dasein

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 05:41 PM

They should change the NHL-AHL-CHL agreement and make an exception for 1 or 2 top prospects from every NHL team - allow them to play in the AHL the year after they're drafted, without having to wait till the season they turn 20.


Even if they did, Jensen needs to play in the Juniors one more year IMO.

Needs to dominate before moving on.

And I think they are doing the right thing by holding off the kid until he's 20 - so much physical disparity between 18-20 year olds that it's just safer to have the zero tolerance approach where there is zero loopholes through which a kid who's clearly not physically ready but pushed forward by the organization gets killed out there in a man's game.
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#706 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 06:05 PM

Even if they did, Jensen needs to play in the Juniors one more year IMO.

Needs to dominate before moving on.

And I think they are doing the right thing by holding off the kid until he's 20 - so much physical disparity between 18-20 year olds that it's just safer to have the zero tolerance approach where there is zero loopholes through which a kid who's clearly not physically ready but pushed forward by the organization gets killed out there in a man's game.


Oh, I wasn't saying Jensen should be playing in the AHL next year as I think he still has some things to learn in junior before making the jump, but in other cases - like Hodgson in his senior year with Brampton - I'd like to see an exception made. With him he was already playing in absolutely every situation like we saw him do with Team Canada and had nothing more to learn at that level.

Jensen OTOH can probably still improve defensively to be even better than he already is, and become a complete 3-zone player.
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#707 DreamHerO

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:01 PM

The great Dane to the rescue!
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#708 RandyLahey

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 08:19 PM

Fight?
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#709 Amish Rake Fighter

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 09:31 PM

*
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Fight?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80me4oZ1-rU&feature=player_embedded
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#710 Verloren

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 10:01 PM

Oh, I wasn't saying Jensen should be playing in the AHL next year as I think he still has some things to learn in junior before making the jump, but in other cases - like Hodgson in his senior year with Brampton - I'd like to see an exception made. With him he was already playing in absolutely every situation like we saw him do with Team Canada and had nothing more to learn at that level.

Jensen OTOH can probably still improve defensively to be even better than he already is, and become a complete 3-zone player.

The problem with these exceptions is that the QMJHL/OHL/WHL will be depleted of talent very, very quickly. This is why the NHL-AHL-CHL agreement says nobody under the age of 20 can play in the AHL. If you give each NHL team 1-2 prospects to exempt from this set of rules, that's a major hit to the level of competition and play in the CHL. In essence, it's turning the CHL into something like the Swedish U18 leagues where all the good players get yanked for Allsvenskan or Elitserien by the age of 17-18.
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#711 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 12:52 AM

The problem with these exceptions is that the QMJHL/OHL/WHL will be depleted of talent very, very quickly. This is why the NHL-AHL-CHL agreement says nobody under the age of 20 can play in the AHL. If you give each NHL team 1-2 prospects to exempt from this set of rules, that's a major hit to the level of competition and play in the CHL. In essence, it's turning the CHL into something like the Swedish U18 leagues where all the good players get yanked for Allsvenskan or Elitserien by the age of 17-18.


Some good points here. Perhaps 2 exemptions is pushing it. I just think it's a waste to see some guys who are absolutely dominant in junior but aren't quite ready for the NHL to have to go back to the CHL in the season they turn 20.

Brayden Schenn I believe was one example last year where he was clearly too good for junior but couldn't play with Manchester except when on a measly conditioning stint, and had Hodgson been healthy in 2009 but unable to make the Canucks I think he should've been able to go to the Moose at age 19 too.

But I can see why they'd want the agreement the way it is, to protect the junior leagues and to err on the side of caution when it comes to developing prospects but I've always wondered if players who fit the above criteria like Schenn wouldn't develop bad habits.

Edited by Canvoucer Vanuck, 20 February 2012 - 12:53 AM.

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#712 stexx

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:41 AM

Some good points here. Perhaps 2 exemptions is pushing it. I just think it's a waste to see some guys who are absolutely dominant in junior but aren't quite ready for the NHL to have to go back to the CHL in the season they turn 20.

Brayden Schenn I believe was one example last year where he was clearly too good for junior but couldn't play with Manchester except when on a measly conditioning stint, and had Hodgson been healthy in 2009 but unable to make the Canucks I think he should've been able to go to the Moose at age 19 too.

But I can see why they'd want the agreement the way it is, to protect the junior leagues and to err on the side of caution when it comes to developing prospects but I've always wondered if players who fit the above criteria like Schenn wouldn't develop bad habits.


got to remember the CHL franchises are a business just like any other, having your best players leaving after 2years is very bad for business. Hard for your customers to become attached to players when they leave so quickly. Now if the one exemption came with a 2-3million dollar fee from the NHL team as a transfer i could possibly see it working for all parties involved.

edit: you are right though sometimes it isnt in the best interest for the player in terms of competition, however i dont think its a bad thing to allow a 18-19 year old another year before getting smoked by 6-5 240pound men.

Edited by stexx, 20 February 2012 - 02:49 AM.

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#713 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 02:50 AM

got to remember the CHL franchises are a business just like any other, having your best players leaving after 2years is very bad for business. Hard for your customers to become attached to players when they leave so quickly. Now if the one exemption came with a 2-3million dollar fee to the NHL team as a transfer i could possibly see it working for all parties involved.


I agree; if there was a cost to the NHL for doing this then that might be better e.g. if the prospect's cap hit counted against their salary cap if they chose to have them play in the AHL in their senior year of junior eligibility. Usually guys who I'm imagining this to be targeted towards are high draft picks anyway with cap hits of $1 mil + on their ELC's.
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#714 avelanch

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 07:59 AM

They should change the NHL-AHL-CHL agreement and make an exception for 1 or 2 top prospects from every NHL team - allow them to play in the AHL the year after they're drafted, without having to wait till the season they turn 20.

that would defeat the purpose of the nhl-chl agreement (to keep the top prospects in the CHL until they were 20 so the team they played for can continue to draw in crowds and to raise the competition level). you'd be removing the top 30-60 players in the league... that's not good for the chl and they would never agree to it, and I don't think the nhl would either, since having those 30-60 players in the CHL helps develop their other prospects in that league.
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#715 avelanch

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 08:01 AM

I agree; if there was a cost to the NHL for doing this then that might be better e.g. if the prospect's cap hit counted against their salary cap if they chose to have them play in the AHL in their senior year of junior eligibility. Usually guys who I'm imagining this to be targeted towards are high draft picks anyway with cap hits of $1 mil + on their ELC's.


and there is no way the nhl would agree to that either, as they would not waste cap space for a player not playing for them.
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#716 The Architect

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:01 PM

Danish Delight.

LOL.
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#717 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:23 PM

and there is no way the nhl would agree to that either, as they would not waste cap space for a player not playing for them.


Not all teams would have to do this. The Islanders, for example, could do this as they have tons of space, and having their high picks play one year earlier in the AHL rather than having them playing in the NHL at 19 years of age might accelerate their development further. Seeing guys like Bailey and Niederreiter be forced to stay on the Isles roster because they didn't want to send them back to the CHL is a shame, especially if they weren't ready for it in the first place.
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#718 avelanch

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 03:41 PM

Not all teams would have to do this. The Islanders, for example, could do this as they have tons of space, and having their high picks play one year earlier in the AHL rather than having them playing in the NHL at 19 years of age might accelerate their development further. Seeing guys like Bailey and Niederreiter be forced to stay on the Isles roster because they didn't want to send them back to the CHL is a shame, especially if they weren't ready for it in the first place.

again, the nhl teams would not agree to it because it would slow the development of not only their other players that currently play in the CHL, but also the players they will be drafting in the future due to the lower level of competition. plus the NHLPA would not agree to it because it would be deemd as cap floor circumvention (teams could under spend but move over a bunch of underage prospects to the AHL to reach the cap floor). there is just so many problems with that proposal, and it's fine as it is right now. plus the whole CHL uproar.
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#719 Canvoucer Vanuck

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Posted 20 February 2012 - 10:30 PM

again, the nhl teams would not agree to it because it would slow the development of not only their other players that currently play in the CHL, but also the players they will be drafting in the future due to the lower level of competition. plus the NHLPA would not agree to it because it would be deemd as cap floor circumvention (teams could under spend but move over a bunch of underage prospects to the AHL to reach the cap floor). there is just so many problems with that proposal, and it's fine as it is right now. plus the whole CHL uproar.


You're right, the CHL at least would definitely disagree, but I just think from an NHL perspective the prospects they want playing in the AHL because they're too good for junior but not quite ready for the big leagues will have to be held back and that would be a waste of a year when they could be learning to play against men instead. If Hodgson had been able to play with the Moose in 2009 -10 I think he'd have been a lot better off for it than going back to Brampton.
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#720 avelanch

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Posted 21 February 2012 - 07:37 AM

You're right, the CHL at least would definitely disagree, but I just think from an NHL perspective the prospects they want playing in the AHL because they're too good for junior but not quite ready for the big leagues will have to be held back and that would be a waste of a year when they could be learning to play against men instead. If Hodgson had been able to play with the Moose in 2009 -10 I think he'd have been a lot better off for it than going back to Brampton.

I don't know how you'd think that, seeing as he only played in 13 regular season games because he was injured for the vast majority of the season. in fact he shouldn't have played at all if they had properly diagnosed his injury. I don't know how you think that small amount of games would have been better suited to the ahl, in fact it may have injured him even worse since he would have been playing against bigger and stronger opponents.
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