Bombastik der Teutone Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I am excited for Sulzer, those 70's scores are not just handed out at TSN....I know I know....take it with a grain of salt..but your right C2X, he did very well with the time Buffalo gave him on the ice. I would say he is a lock for the starting roster this coming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 you ll be also fine if klein moves up..and i guees he will cuz i dont see the preds going with weber and suter through the next season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 That's exactly the problem. These players bring something to teams, but that isn't reflected in our scoring structure. You can look at it as Mike did with Mitchell=Kopitar and think, wtf, no way. But remember that those star players would get hits and blocked shots too, and that they wouldn't be worth so much as to skew the scale that much. What about those top 4 D that don't get a lot of points on the scoreboard? They are constantly waived or traded, or relegated to 3rd/4th line roles, despite playing 20+ minutes for their team, something that won't fly next season with players ice time and roles being watched more closely. To me, what doesn't make sense is giving value to one style of player while ignoring the other. Each player brings something to the table and we should do our best to reflect that. It would only serve to create the oppourtunity for more realistic rosters and add another dynamic to the game. It would also give teams that aren't already loaded up with 4 or 5 offensive defencemen a chance to compete. Try making a trade as a rebuilding team. You try to add a quality piece, but you're met with the response of "I'm not giving up this guy without a similar player coming back, top end talent, 1st round draft picks, etc." If you have some more defensive style defencemen already, you'd be able to have some kind of asset in a trade that would appeal to other teams. It's easy for the teams that are already strong to say the system is fine as it is. But the fact is these players bring value to a lineup, and that value should be reflected. What doesn't make sense is ignoring their contributions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombastik der Teutone Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Not against your thoughts here, but only wanted to add that in the real NHL some players get Crosby Money, and some players get Volpatti money. The players value is tied to many things, but from a broad general view of things every team has players making league minimum, even though they contribute an aweful lot to the success of the team, and they have players making huge sums of millions who contribute even more so. over weighting a player's value by assigning him points in our league could very well have terrible affects on our cap situation. If a guy who formerly made 75 points in our league in a season is suddenly making 200, his value goes up. They can't all be Crosby's or the cap would have to be 130 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I don't know how much, I am just saying that a guy who makes 500k in the NHL would have a different value in the CDCGML based upon his fantasy point production, so if we add to that players production we are adding to his value. That is all, i was using an extreme example. but lets look at your guy Our WIld team have him for 650k right now. He got them 124 points from january onwards..before them he was with And with Florida from 25 Nov to 4 Dec and got them 4 points. Originally with LA he got them 8 points in October. He went to Edmonton in our league and got 14 points in the next month, and 44 points with st louis...I may have missed a team but the bottom line is: making near league minimum he got 194 fantasy points last year in our league while bouncing through 6 teams. Certainly a contributor, but not a star value, just a guy filling a low salary role on a team. But if you give him points for blocked shots that changes his role in the CDCGML from a guy doing a job for a low salary to that of a point earner. he led the Islanders with 186 blocked shots, but the islanders still only paid him 550 thousand because he wasn't supposed to get them points. If we give 1 point for blocked shots his totals go to the extreme star end of the spectrum with 380 fantasy points, most starting goalies did not get that many points. If we give 1/4 a point per block it still puts him in the 2.5million to 3million range of comparable point earners at around 250 points. Now here we should consider as well that at 1/4 of a point per block shot, some players will get a lot of extra points, but most players wouldn't get more than 25 total extra points all season, so we are basically talking about changing the point structure of the league in order to allow less than 2 players per full roster to earn a lot more points, while 20 players per roster may earn 20-25 points all season long. It isn't hard to look at the exact 30 or so players who have proven over time that they are the block shot kings and know instantly that those guys value just went up substantially in our league. Now I don't mind this generally, as it would even out over time, but I don't know if i like the idea of putting in a new scoring rule that may as well just list 30 or so players by name and say "new rule, these 30 guys who are mostly payed low scale in the real NHL are now worth more in the CDCGML". I am not totally against the idea, but I am questioning the real worth of making the change. It won't affect 700 players in the league too much, and will greatly affect 30 and somewhat affect 90. Further, if the points earned is dropped to say .2 or .1 per blocked shot...it becomes a completely useless change as we are really just dickering about so that a small handfull of guys can get 10 or 15 points a season more. while the vast majority wouldn't get 5 points all year out of it. Just looking at perspective with actual numbers, rather than feelings. Do i feel that shot blockers need more worth? YES...does is look statistically to make much difference to a vast number of players? NO..does that make it an unfair change for the small number of heavily affected players? YES. The short list of 10 or so who are UFA's right now have an instant value increase, while another 10 may be under league minimum contracts for another 3 years. Again, no offense to anyone, I think the discussion is worth while, and in the end, if the change is made, obviously things will normalize over time, so its no big deal either way...but worth discussion imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bombastik der Teutone Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I don't know how much, I am just saying that a guy who makes 500k in the NHL would have a different value in the CDCGML based upon his fantasy point production, so if we add to that players production we are adding to his value. That is all, i was using an extreme example. but lets look at your guy Our WIld team have him for 650k right now. He got them 124 points from january onwards..before them he was with And with Florida from 25 Nov to 4 Dec and got them 4 points. Originally with LA he got them 8 points in October. He went to Edmonton in our league and got 14 points in the next month, and 44 points with st louis...I may have missed a team but the bottom line is: making near league minimum he got 194 fantasy points last year in our league while bouncing through 6 teams. Certainly a contributor, but not a star value, just a guy filling a low salary role on a team. But if you give him points for blocked shots that changes his role in the CDCGML from a guy doing a job for a low salary to that of a point earner. he led the Islanders with 186 blocked shots, but the islanders still only paid him 550 thousand because he wasn't supposed to get them points. If we give 1 point for blocked shots his totals go to the extreme star end of the spectrum with 380 fantasy points, most starting goalies did not get that many points. If we give 1/4 a point per block it still puts him in the 2.5million to 3million range of comparable point earners at around 250 points. Now here we should consider as well that at 1/4 of a point per block shot, some players will get a lot of extra points, but most players wouldn't get more than 25 total extra points all season, so we are basically talking about changing the point structure of the league in order to allow less than 2 players per full roster to earn a lot more points, while 20 players per roster may earn 20-25 points all season long. It isn't hard to look at the exact 30 or so players who have proven over time that they are the block shot kings and know instantly that those guys value just went up substantially in our league. Now I don't mind this generally, as it would even out over time, but I don't know if i like the idea of putting in a new scoring rule that may as well just list 30 or so players by name and say "new rule, these 30 guys who are mostly payed low scale in the real NHL are now worth more in the CDCGML". I am not totally against the idea, but I am questioning the real worth of making the change. It won't affect 700 players in the league too much, and will greatly affect 30 and somewhat affect 90. Further, if the points earned is dropped to say .2 or .1 per blocked shot...it becomes a completely useless change as we are really just dickering about so that a small handfull of guys can get 10 or 15 points a season more. while the vast majority wouldn't get 5 points all year out of it. Just looking at perspective with actual numbers, rather than feelings. Do i feel that shot blockers need more worth? YES...does is look statistically to make much difference to a vast number of players? NO..does that make it an unfair change for the small number of heavily affected players? YES. The short list of 10 or so who are UFA's right now have an instant value increase, while another 10 may be under league minimum contracts for another 3 years. Again, no offense to anyone, I think the discussion is worth while, and in the end, if the change is made, obviously things will normalize over time, so its no big deal either way...but worth discussion imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Vanderhoek Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 I just don't like the idea of closing the point production gap from top liners and lower end role players. Before last season we already made adustments to bring forward production up higher to match defense and goaltenders so the latter two positionts weren't so highly valued. I am all for discussion and change, however this idea to me feels like we will be further closing the cap on player's values. I find it to be less realistic and to be honest less enjoyable to have a complete roster of players earning more similiar points. You know like all becoming the same, only differentiating of a player would be there names lol. Also in this League teams are frowned upon for making too many trades, transactions as keeping that number down is to be realistic to some degree. Well there will be a huge amount of player turnover more so than the amount we have now which as I said is already frowned upon. If a change in the scoring system goes through, sure some teams will have hit a jackpot with certain players, but we have already built our teams around another structure and at this point id realistically only see one of blocked shots or hits, etc added with minimal points per to not screw with rosters all across our League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Hrm, your post reminds me of a quote from i think a movie... "if everyone is extraordinary, no one is". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 so now as a devils advocate, what would fractional points for hits and blocks look like to us? As I already posted, if a guy gets suddenly 180 points for blocking shots that is likely not good for the league..but if a guy got say 0.2 points per blocked shot..then the best in the leauge is only looking at an extra 36 points all season...is that enough to add value, without dramatically altering the 'system' that we have all built our teams under? I have not looked at hits...but I imagine the same value could be applied. if someone has 200 hits a year..then .2 would be 40 points on the season for hits...thus a high hitting high blocking defensive contributor on his real life NHL team would be rewarded in our league, without dramatically changing the landscape of teh salary 'systems' we have all built so far. If, by some stroke the same player got 30 and 30 points using this fractional system, then he would increase his fantasy poinots by 60 with the changes...which i think is a good recognition of his value defensively, without putting him up in the stratosphere with Malkin, the Sedins, Crosby...and many more who have more real tangible NHL points. Perhaps a fractional way is a good compromise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeak Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 A little late to the party - Congrats Ace! I vote no to scoring changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 I am honestly undecided still, but leaning towards no points for hits/blocked shots simply because it would affect a relatively small number of players in a big way which would change their value. some of the best hitters in the league are paid less than a million cuz they don't score, but in our league they would score so their value goes up, can't really work when we mirror the nhl cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensman Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Signings: The Ottawa Senators signed the following prospects prior to June 15th, my schedule prevented me from posting on time. My apologies to the GM and league. Riley Sheahan to a $2,700,000 contract over the next three seasons (900k per season). Jerome Gauthier-Leduc to a $2,500,000 contract over the next three seasons (833k per season). Brad Ross to a $2,700,000 contract over the next three seasons (900k per season). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensman Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Signing: The Ottawa Senators have re-signed Tomas Fleischmann to a 4 year 19 million deal (4.75 per season) two years NTC followed by two year limited NTC (player may choose 8 teams). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensman Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Signing: The Colorado Avalanche have re-signed Erik Brewer to a 2 year, $8.7 million dollar contract (4.35 million per season). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Well, first off, no one has even proposed what a scoring structure change with hits/bs would look like yet. Secondly, either as an argument for or against, I would like to see how the inclusion of that points system alteration would affect a sample of CDCGML players. We did that last time. At least this way we'd know what we are talking about. Does a 0.5 Hits and a 0.25 for BS really make Mitchell the same as Kopitar or does it make Willie go from being worth 100 points to 200 points and Kopitar from 400 points to 475 points? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theminister Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 The Isles are actively seeking 2013 1st & 2nd round picks and are using their four 2012 2nds as bait to get one. Brad Stuart's rights are still available as well. If the Isles can't work out a deal we are satisfied to be selecting 35th, 40th, 44th, 52nd, and 66th. The belief in the organization is that there will be a few sleepers to fall out the 1st round this year and the team has set their sights on a few prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuck2xtreme Posted June 17, 2012 Author Share Posted June 17, 2012 Well, first off, no one has even proposed what a scoring structure change with hits/bs would look like yet. Secondly, either as an argument for or against, I would like to see how the inclusion of that points system alteration would affect a sample of CDCGML players. We did that last time. At least this way we'd know what we are talking about. Does a 0.5 Hits and a 0.25 for BS really make Mitchell the same as Kopitar or does it make Willie go from being worth 100 points to 200 points and Kopitar from 400 points to 475 points? This is the far more likely scenario. I will post some examples later on today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 From what I have looked at fractional points for hits would affect a very small number of players dramatically, and fractional points for blocks would affect a very small handful of players dramatically. The vast majority of NHL players would not be affected dramatically because the vast majority are in the bulk of hitters and blockers that are more or less average at both. The highest hit total was if i recall correctly 374. so that player would go up by 162 fantasy points if last year we counted hits at .5points The highest block total was 250, so that player would go up by 62 fantasy points if we counted blocked shots last year at .25 points. Obviously the vast majority don't come close to this, and the degradation rate is very steep, meaning the numbers drop off very quickly over the top 30 players to settle at the average rather fast on the depth chart for both hits and the chart for blocked shots. My opinion is that only 20 to 30 players are impacted substantially by blocked shots and only 45-70 players are impacted substantially by hits. I did not look to check if some players are in both 'impact' groups but those few players in the top end of both catagories would certainly raise a lot in fantasy points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primal Optimist Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 In other news...our draft day is this coming week!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otis Posted June 17, 2012 Share Posted June 17, 2012 Release: Florida releases Samuel Pahlsson from his contract as he has signed with MoDo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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