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Does Luongo really meltdown in the playoffs?


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#151 Riviera82

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:18 PM

nowadays as in the last 2 seasons? cause before that not even close.

2010 cup winning GAA: 2.63
2009 cup winning GAA: 2.61
2008 cup winning GAA: 1.55
2007: 1.97
2006: 2.14

only 2 of those goalies had a GAA below 2


2012 - Quick - 1.41
2011 - Thomas - 1.98
2010 - Niemi - 2.63
2009 - Fleury - 2.61
2008 - Osgood - 1.55
2007 - Giguere - 1.97
2006 - Ward - 2.14
2004 - Khabibulin - 1.71
2003 - Brodeur - 1.65
2002 - Hasek - 1.85
2001 - Roy - 1.70
2000 - Brodeur - 1.61

So, since the turn of the century only 2 goalies have won a Stanley Cup with a GAA higher than 2.50. And only 3 with a GAA over 2.00. There ya go.
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#152 Primus099

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

still i wouldn't EXPECT the goalie on my team to keep a sub 2.00GAA over the course of the playoffs, if he does it then great but to expect that is not that realistic.

you shouldn't need him to either your team should be able to score more than 2 goals a game come playoff time
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#153 shazzam

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:51 PM

wrong thread

Edited by shazzam, 09 January 2013 - 07:52 PM.

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#154 Dasein

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

what is philly going to do with Bryz for this season?

try to loan him to a KHL team?
waive and hope for someone to pick him up or bury in the minors?

the compliance buyouts cant be used for this season. i think they will at least give Bryz another year given the big contract they gave him.


They have 70mil of cap room to fit Bryz in because of the lockout this year, and Bryz can be bought out in June, so he wouldn't count against their cap starting next season.

Basically they have room this year for both and they're not on the hook for Bryz next season, so they can do it.
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#155 Nino

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:53 PM

still i wouldn't EXPECT the goalie on my team to keep a sub 2.00GAA over the course of the playoffs, if he does it then great but to expect that is not that realistic.

you shouldn't need him to either your team should be able to score more than 2 goals a game come playoff time


I'm with you, I would not "expect" our goals under 2.00, but I would expect our goalie to keep us in games we needed to win. And that's the thing when he is on his game his numbers are around 2.00 but when he's off lookout!!! Cory may not play as well as the "on" Lou but better then the "off" Lou. That a trade ill take, the boys just need to know what they need to do to win then the loss is on them. Meltdowns are another story, how can a team prep for that.
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#156 thema

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:54 PM

2007-08 - Last 6 games: 4.59 GAA, 0.837 Sv%
2008-09 - Last 6 games: 3.31 GAA, 0.879 Sv%
2009-10 - Last 6 games: 3.52 GAA, 0.897 Sv%
2010-11 - Last 6 games: 4.12 GAA, 0.864 Sv%


I think this says it all...
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#157 Primus099

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:09 PM

I'm with you, I would not "expect" our goals under 2.00, but I would expect our goalie to keep us in games we needed to win. And that's the thing when he is on his game his numbers are around 2.00 but when he's off lookout!!! Cory may not play as well as the "on" Lou but better then the "off" Lou. That a trade ill take, the boys just need to know what they need to do to win then the loss is on them. Meltdowns are another story, how can a team prep for that.


That's the thing though, in the finals against Boston the games we won were because Luongo kept us in it. The offense was simply not there except for maybe game 2 where we scored 3 goals, the other 2 wins we scored 1 goal and Luongo stood on his head and got 2 shutouts. Luongo melted down in Boston yes but even if he averaged a 2.00GAA in the games in Boston we still would have lost. Luongo doesn't get a free pass but he certainly doesn't deserve the majority of the blame either.

His home GAA for the finals was 1.5 even with the 4 goals in game 7. if your goalie can keep a 1.5GAA for 4 games then there;'s no excuse for not winning those 4 games. Just like Schneider keeping a 1.33GAA for 3 games and us losing 2 of 3, terrible

Edited by Primus099, 09 January 2013 - 08:19 PM.

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#158 shazzam

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:20 PM

They have 70mil of cap room to fit Bryz in because of the lockout this year, and Bryz can be bought out in June, so he wouldn't count against their cap starting next season.

Basically they have room this year for both and they're not on the hook for Bryz next season, so they can do it.


wow you were quick to quote me, the post was up for like 5 seconds haha.

I know their owners have deep pockets but its around a total of 27 million they will be forking out. I don't see it as a huge upgrade for them considering what they will probably need to give up. Still think that Bryz remains the starter for philly at least for this season. If he doesn't perform this year, then the compliance buyout will come in handy.
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#159 ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:17 PM

It's not that Luongo's bad, it's that all the dope smoke in the air affects peoples' memory here, they don't remember that we've run every goalie out of town that's ever played for this franchise, good, bad, or mediocre. Doesn't matter that Lu is by far the best goalie we've ever had, by far the most successful in the playoffs, by far, by far. Forget all that, the new kid's got potential so let's run him outta town! Get the catapult, people!
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#160 Navyblue

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:40 PM

When the team faces a superior opponent they lose. Lou was one of the weaker links in Boston.
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#161 Monteeun

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:35 PM

Ah yes the old "the defenceman didn't prevent the player from taking a shot therefore it's the defenceman's fault" argument. I thought we were discussing an "elite" goalie here.


You just admitted that you got owned. Thanks for coming out.
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BAD MOVE!!!

BAD FING MOVE

HAHAHA ANOTHER INJURED MORON ON OUR TEAM

HE WILL JOIN US IN 2019

Benning will be fired next year. Hope he enjoys screwing around for a few months. I just cant believe this. Another injured BC player. We just got rid of garrison. Seems like the canucks and linden just wanted any BC born player. Doesn't matter if hes good or not. We don't need another Linden to get us to game 7 of the Stanley cup and lose. We need someone to win us a cup.

5 million a year for Vrbata? 6 million for Miller? Kesler for Bonino and 24th instead of 10th pick or one of their top prospects? Garrison for scraps?

ive already lost faith in JB. Ive never EVER had this bad of a feeling about management.

 


#162 Nino

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:21 AM

You just admitted that you got owned. Thanks for coming out.


From what I was reading it sounded like sarcasm, therefore not admitting getting owned. But he he may have just owned you for admitting you don't understand sarcasm.
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#163 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:27 AM

What a load of rubbish.

The entire team was playing on one leg and almost won a cup for Luongo.

The only position not decimated by injury was the goaltender position.

Give it a rest.


YOU AND YOUR GIRLS. GIVE IT A REST. The Canucks are as good as they are because Luongo is in net and you fundamentally know it. But your spite more then blinds you. I hope you're ready to say farewell to an Era ending. Schneider will just be yet another goaltender who is run out of town, much faster than Luongo has been run out of town. This team is dead.
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#164 Riviera82

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:45 AM

YOU AND YOUR GIRLS. GIVE IT A REST. The Canucks are as good as they are because Luongo is in net and you fundamentally know it. But your spite more then blinds you. I hope you're ready to say farewell to an Era ending. Schneider will just be yet another goaltender who is run out of town, much faster than Luongo has been run out of town. This team is dead.


Seems like your heartbreak over Luongo leaving makes you wish this team was dead. Dont worry though, Schneider should do an admirable job filling Luongo's regular season shoes. In the playoffs however, you might be disappointed when the Canucks stop losing by 4+ goals with such regularity.
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#165 higgyfan

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:13 AM

YOU AND YOUR GIRLS. GIVE IT A REST. The Canucks are as good as they are because Luongo is in net and you fundamentally know it. But your spite more then blinds you. I hope you're ready to say farewell to an Era ending. Schneider will just be yet another goaltender who is run out of town, much faster than Luongo has been run out of town. This team is dead.


Hurry man! Take your chrystal ball over to the Canucks management and tell them what's going to happen before it's too late!
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#166 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:16 AM

Bad faith all around. Certainly hope not, but I fear the worst. Keep playing cards ignoring the fact that the boat is sinking.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 10 January 2013 - 09:17 AM.

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#167 D-Money

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:19 AM

Stick with Luongo, because there is no way Schneider will be able to perform well under that intense pressure.


He just did!

In the 3 playoff games Schneider was in, his stats were were better than any 3 consecutive playoff games Lu has had since the Blues sweep in 2009. That series, and some of his 2006-07 work, was the only time Lu has ever played as well as Schneider just did.
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#168 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:21 AM

He just did!

In the 3 playoff games Schneider was in, his stats were were better than any 3 consecutive playoff games Lu has had since the Blues sweep in 2009. That series, and some of his 2006-07 work, was the only time Lu has ever played as well as Schneider just did.


And the Canucks.... Lost because they can't score to save their lives.

Schneider or Luongo doesn't matter. If you can't score, you can't win.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 10 January 2013 - 09:22 AM.

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#169 Riviera82

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:46 AM

And the Canucks.... Lost because they can't score to save their lives.

Schneider or Luongo doesn't matter. If you can't score, you can't win.


The question is, would you rather lose 6-1 with Luongo, or 2-1 in OT with Schneider? At least Schneider always gives the team a chance.
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#170 Canucks_Hockey_101

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:56 AM

The question is, would you rather lose 6-1 with Luongo, or 2-1 in OT with Schneider? At least Schneider always gives the team a chance.


I'd rather not lose. If the Canucks can't score they lose. Very simple. The question would hold weight if the scores were 6-5 or even 8-7. But the Canucks can't score during the playoffs because they miss the intangibles required to win playoff games, which do not factor in on a Moneyball blueprint.

The 1994 Canucks win the Cup over the current Canucks any day because they had passion, toughness, poise, heart and determination. This team doesn't. It has great scoring during the season but come playoff time when things get tough, your top players disappear when you need them most. This team is not built for a Cup and in a shortened season, the competition will be even fiercer, which does not bode well for Vancouver. Top 8 most likely but bottom of that top.

Blame Luongo.

Edited by Canucks_Hockey_101, 10 January 2013 - 10:03 AM.

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#171 D-Money

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:58 AM

Luongo has had way more huge playoff games than he has had bad ones, his melting is overrated.


There's nothing wrong with the odd bad game. The best goalies out there have them. However, the problem is if you have 2 or 3 TERRIBLE games in a single series. Then it doesn't matter if your last series was fantastic, and you had a couple great games in this one - it's a big issue.

What would constitute a "terrible game"? How about a .800-or-less save percentage? That is letting a goal in every 5 shots. That is definitely terrible, for playoff goaltending...to have more than one game of it in a series is really hard for a team to overcome. But in our Luongo-led cup run, it happened on two occasions:

2010-11 - Boston
Game 3 - .789
Game 4 - .800
Game 6 - .625

2010-11 - Chicago
Game 4 - .786
Game 5 - .667

So on our cup run, we had two series where our goalie gave us god-awful, terrible playoff goaltending for more than 1 game. That shouldn't be overlooked, or excused away.

Do other great goalies do that? Marty Brodeur has only had 1 series where he didn't save over 80% of the shots in more than one game, and that was in 1998-99 against a stacked Penguins team. There was only 1 game this last playoffs where his save percentage was that low. Then you have to go back to 2002-03 to find another game like that. He had 2 of those games in a full playoff run, but followed each of them up with shutouts.

OK, Brodeur is a tough comparison. How about Niemi then? He had 1 game where he had an .800 save percentage in his cup run - and that is it. No meltdowns, no multiple terrible games. He was steady, which gave the Hawks a chance to win every series. (In 2010-11 he had 2 terrible games in San Jose's first series with the Kings.)

M.A. Fleury just had 2 against the Flyers (funny how only two of those games were actually sub-.800). But that was the first time in his 75-game playoff career (14 more than Luongo) that he has had more than one game that bad in a series. And yet, everyone and their uncle will freely admit that Fleury had a terrible series and completely melted down.

...But some of those same people will say Lu's melting is overrated?

Edited by D-Money, 10 January 2013 - 10:03 AM.

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#172 Aladeen

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 10:39 AM

I believe the biggest fault was the defence. You can't blame Luongo in the SCF at all - the guy somehow posted 2 shutouts and was IMO the only reason we lasted 7 games. Without Lu Boston would have finished us in 5. Don't forget, our team ranked 3rd last for goals-for per game in the playoffs, including all the horrible teams swept in the 1st round.

Lets look at the injuries we had on defence. Hamhuis gone in the 1st game. Rome suspended. Edler broke his hand (so basically can't shoot, can't defend and can't hit - useless). We had to play a rookie Tanev and Ballard, a guy who may be good but was rusty as hell.

When you take out the top half of your D-core (minutes-wise they were 3 of our top-4) no goalie has a chance. That would be the equivalent of Boston losing Seidenberg, Kaberle and Chara breaking his hand. With the lack of depth they have after their 6th man, we would have destroyed Thomas had that have happened.

This is the way it was - what is so hard to understand about this? I'm talking to all the Luongo haters out there who say he chokes all the time. Any goalie would have been lit up with that decimated defence corps.

Unless the return for Luongo is Astronomical, we Canuck fans will RUE the day the fairweather fans drove him out of town.
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#173 apollo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:06 AM

Roberto is the only reason we didn't get swept in the finals.

Those are some very interesting stats and I hadn't thought about it before... when the canucks lose they lose big in the playoffs. End of the day it doesn't matter if u lose by one goal or by five. Like we saw in the hawks series: we got out scored and won the series. The deciding factor in the series was the goaltending.

Luongo came into his own in 2009-2010. He was very shaky in the playoffs prior to those years... the paSt two year luongo has been clutch. I wouldn't take any other goalie over him... he stands on his head when it matters.
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#174 apollo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:08 AM

This is the way it was - what is so hard to understand about this? I'm talking to all the Luongo haters out there who say he chokes all the time. Any goalie would have been lit up with that decimated defence corps.

Unless the return for Luongo is Astronomical, we Canuck fans will RUE the day the fairweather fans drove him out of town.


The deal will b far from astronomical...:(
For some reason no one gives the guy any value... ffs they talked about a buy out.
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WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN MILLERMANIA RUNS WILDDDD ON YOU?!

 

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#175 Aladeen

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:49 AM

The deal will b far from astronomical... :(
For some reason no one gives the guy any value... ffs they talked about a buy out.

It boggles the mind... but its because most hockey fans don't use logic and facts and they throw all those out the window and let their emotions take over. I hope for the best no matter what Canuck's management does, but I really believe if you are not going into a rebuild right away we should stick with Luongo and get that astronomical return for Schneider.

Personally I don't see the urgent rush to get rid of either and I don't think its such a bad thing being super stacked in the most important position in hockey. Wait at least till closer to the trade deadline to maximize return. Philly would cough up a lot if they felt they were a great goalie away from a cup, or what about TO if they are in 7 or 8th and their goaltenders are faltering at that time?

Luongo was a huge part of why this franchise is where it is, why they were 1 game away from a cup. Luongo has a Stanley cup in him and I really hope it is with the Canucks.
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#176 apollo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

It boggles the mind... but its because most hockey fans don't use logic and facts and they throw all those out the window and let their emotions take over. I hope for the best no matter what Canuck's management does, but I really believe if you are not going into a rebuild right away we should stick with Luongo and get that astronomical return for Schneider.

Personally I don't see the urgent rush to get rid of either and I don't think its such a bad thing being super stacked in the most important position in hockey. Wait at least till closer to the trade deadline to maximize return. Philly would cough up a lot if they felt they were a great goalie away from a cup, or what about TO if they are in 7 or 8th and their goaltenders are faltering at that time?

Luongo was a huge part of why this franchise is where it is, why they were 1 game away from a cup. Luongo has a Stanley cup in him and I really hope it is with the Canucks.


I completely agree... this team needs to win now. Let them play out... there is ZERO chance that Luongos value drops any lower than it is. They'll both play well and whichever ACTUALLY earns the starting job can stay. The other can go at the deadline. Schneider played three playoff games and he won the job based on that?? Complete blasphemy
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#177 smurf47

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:03 PM

The thing is Luongo have brilliant games and he has less brilliant games, but that's the thing, to be the best goalie you have to be more consistent. Luongos top form is great but is lowest point is low and shows up to often. Well when i was playing you had to play good to give the team confidence, if I wasn't playing great my defence would struggle. So if you let in like one or two easy goals, the players in front of you get nervous because they don't trust you. Luongo is a great goaltender, but not consistent enough!

You are absolutely correct...Lou is inconsistant game to game and his decent Sp in playoffs does not reflect this. Hes either.960 or .870.....spelling inconsistancy ! He has been outplayed by other elite goalies who elevate their games.
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#178 Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:06 PM

I completely agree... this team needs to win now. Let them play out... there is ZERO chance that Luongos value drops any lower than it is. They'll both play well and whichever ACTUALLY earns the starting job can stay. The other can go at the deadline. Schneider played three playoff games and he won the job based on that?? Complete blasphemy


Do you really think Lou wants to be here anymore? Think he would be happy starting 8 games this season? The guy wants out, read between the lines. No way he is here for more than half the season.
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#179 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:09 PM

That doesn't really apply. "Meltdown" infers he's doing fine, but suddenly crumbles.

And that is exactly what Lu has done since his 2nd year here. He performs at an allstar level, and then suddenly has multiple games of poor play when it matters most. What he is left with is above-average stats career/season-wise, but the discrepencies are clear if you examine game-to-game stats.


And there is more to this than obviously just looking at stats. Such as evaluating the team performance in front of him. A dominant regular season goalie shouldn't struggle like he does in the playoffs without some other factors involved.
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#180 Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:09 PM

You are absolutely correct...Lou is inconsistant game to game and his decent Sp in playoffs does not reflect this. Hes either.960 or .870.....spelling inconsistancy ! He has been outplayed by other elite goalies who elevate their games.


Surely he wasn't outplayed in Game 6 where he let in 3 quick and easy goals on 12 shots or something like that.... He is amazingly consistent!!!
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