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Does Luongo really meltdown in the playoffs?


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#181 Tortorella's Rant

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

Ok I see how it is, Lou our mid pack goalie could win the cup if we had ofencive support to compensate for the fact that he's a mid pack goalie.

The only thing that is still confusing me is why we are paying our mid pack goalie like he's a star goalie, the payroll really takes away from the ofencive talent we can sign (with the cap and all).


Tell me more about how you were against the cap hit when he signed that contract.
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#182 apollo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:21 PM

Do you really think Lou wants to be here anymore? Think he would be happy starting 8 games this season? The guy wants out, read between the lines. No way he is here for more than half the season.


If I was him I would show my middle finger to all these ungrateful fans and tell them to stick it. That being said if he plays 8 games he'll have his job back Cuz he's simply better than Schneider. I just hope he loves the true fans that watched more than just two playoffs games
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#183 playboi19

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

Yes.
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#184 NuxFan09

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:30 PM

He did melt down in the playoffs, but not as much as people think. The truest example I can think of where he melted down and cost the team was, really, the game that started all of this: Game 6 against Chicago in 2009. The team was working its butt off to win the game and kept scoring to go ahead but Luongo just kept letting pucks in. From that game on, two things happened:

1) Luongo did in fact get mentally weaker and unsure of himself

2) Fans, non-fans, the media etc. came up with this notion that he's a playoff choker

Luongo isn't exactly infallible in the playoffs either. It's somewhere in the middle. The Blackhawks hurt him mentally all those years the Canucks played them in the playoffs to the point where he, like I mentioned above, he became unsure of himself and was suspect in other series, like the Boston series.

In short, the guy isn't a playoff choker by nature. I just think he was mentally damaged, or weakened, and hasn't been able to fully recover. If he has a bad game in the playoffs, it'll likely go downhill for him from there. He needs to have more belief in the hockey player he really is.
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#185 Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:33 PM

If I was him I would show my middle finger to all these ungrateful fans and tell them to stick it. That being said if he plays 8 games he'll have his job back Cuz he's simply better than Schneider. I just hope he loves the true fans that watched more than just two playoffs games


The one thing every pro sports person knows is to pay no attention to cheers or jeers. Because one night they love you and the next night they hate you! He is not leaving because of some fans... The guy is still a great goalie, he is not going to ride the pine all season. Just like Gigure in Anaheim when he lost the job. Time to move on and start for another team. He was better than Schneider... but anymore i bet they are equal or Schneider has taken the lead. Age is creeping up on him now.
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#186 cloutier123

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:36 PM

Apparently yes.
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#187 Canucklehead420

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:40 PM

Savard & Horton vs. Hamhuis & Raymond is at best from the Canucks' perspective a neutral trade, with the vast majority (myself included) arguing that Boston's key injuries were much more significant.

Check your facts before posting, junior. Injuries weren't the reason AT ALL.


as good as horton was losing our no. 1 shutdown dman was more significant. savard is always injured so he shouldnt even count
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#188 Canucklehead420

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:51 PM

Yeah, the Sedins should've scored 5-9 goals a game.


getting more than 2 goals and 3 assists combined in 7 games would be a start. having to rely on raffi torres and max lappiere to squeak out 1 goal victories suggests we were lucky to make it to 7 games. the sedins are suppoesed to be point a game players or better and they came no where near it

Edited by Canucklehead420, 10 January 2013 - 12:52 PM.

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#189 NuxFan09

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:59 PM

getting more than 2 goals and 3 assists combined in 7 games would be a start. having to rely on raffi torres and max lappiere to squeak out 1 goal victories suggests we were lucky to make it to 7 games. the sedins are suppoesed to be point a game players or better and they came no where near it


You're right, but at least Hank took a big step forward last season (Danny was injured and only played 2 games so can't really judge him). He scored 5 points in 5 games (2 goals, 3 assists) to lead the team while facing a defense and goalie at least as good or better than that of the Bruins in 2011. I think a lot of people outside of Canuck-land were even impressed by Hank's performance and were willing to accept that he's not a soft pillow in the playoffs anymore, that he can get it done with some grit and leadership.

Hopefully that carries over to this season. But anyway, back to Luongo.

Edited by NuxFan09, 10 January 2013 - 01:00 PM.

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#190 apollo

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:01 PM

getting more than 2 goals and 3 assists combined in 7 games would be a start. having to rely on raffi torres and max lappiere to squeak out 1 goal victories suggests we were lucky to make it to 7 games. the sedins are suppoesed to be point a game players or better and they came no where near it

100% Agreed
I absolutely love the twins and know they can lead us to a cup. But the truth of the matter is that they chocked vs the bruins.
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#191 Bodee

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 01:16 PM

And there is more to this than obviously just looking at stats. Such as evaluating the team performance in front of him. A dominant regular season goalie shouldn't struggle like he does in the playoffs without some other factors involved.


Exactly, and 2/3 pages back I posted one of the main factors. We can't score for nuts.

I must admit when I compiled that list of forwards and their points contribution last year an ice cold shiver went up my spine. Are we really so inept at scoring in the playoffs? History tells us we are and what's more we have still got basically the same set of forwards.

I am now more worried about what might happen if Lu goes.


"But the truth of the matter is that they chocked vs the bruins."

I don't see it that way. I just thought they were out muscled, just like our defence was in that series and again against LA.
I have been saying for 3yrs now, we need a big aggressive sniper to aid the Sedins and a big stay at home D to protect Lu.

Edited by Bodee, 10 January 2013 - 01:22 PM.

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#192 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

There's nothing wrong with the odd bad game. The best goalies out there have them. However, the problem is if you have 2 or 3 TERRIBLE games in a single series. Then it doesn't matter if your last series was fantastic, and you had a couple great games in this one - it's a big issue.

What would constitute a "terrible game"? How about a .800-or-less save percentage? That is letting a goal in every 5 shots. That is definitely terrible, for playoff goaltending...to have more than one game of it in a series is really hard for a team to overcome. But in our Luongo-led cup run, it happened on two occasions:

2010-11 - Boston
Game 3 - .789
Game 4 - .800
Game 6 - .625

2010-11 - Chicago
Game 4 - .786
Game 5 - .667

So on our cup run, we had two series where our goalie gave us god-awful, terrible playoff goaltending for more than 1 game. That shouldn't be overlooked, or excused away.

Do other great goalies do that? Marty Brodeur has only had 1 series where he didn't save over 80% of the shots in more than one game, and that was in 1998-99 against a stacked Penguins team. There was only 1 game this last playoffs where his save percentage was that low. Then you have to go back to 2002-03 to find another game like that. He had 2 of those games in a full playoff run, but followed each of them up with shutouts.

OK, Brodeur is a tough comparison. How about Niemi then? He had 1 game where he had an .800 save percentage in his cup run - and that is it. No meltdowns, no multiple terrible games. He was steady, which gave the Hawks a chance to win every series. (In 2010-11 he had 2 terrible games in San Jose's first series with the Kings.)

M.A. Fleury just had 2 against the Flyers (funny how only two of those games were actually sub-.800). But that was the first time in his 75-game playoff career (14 more than Luongo) that he has had more than one game that bad in a series. And yet, everyone and their uncle will freely admit that Fleury had a terrible series and completely melted down.

...But some of those same people will say Lu's melting is overrated?


Watch the highlights in the Chicago series, you will see he is not to blame, I broke it down goal by goal, play by play awhile ago for Riveria who is one of the biggest Luongo bashers on this site (Not saying that in a negative way Riv, everyone has to have an opinion and that's fine) but even he agreed I had some good points.

The Boston series he stumbled at times but there are alot more people that deserve blame before you lay it on him, and he also saved us in just as many time he was bad.
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#193 Nino

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:34 PM

Tell me more about how you were against the cap hit when he signed that contract.


Well you can't, my point was (although not very clear) that Lou fans are saying we can't score and its not Lou's falt. Well I'm just pointing out that if Lou was paid a little less we could have add more scoring. The funny thing is that all the Lou fans that that said the problem our scoring not Lou's goaltending are now saying that we should keep Lou and spend 10mil on goaltending, now that wouldn't affect our scoring problems now would it? LOL
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#194 Nino

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:37 PM

There's nothing wrong with the odd bad game. The best goalies out there have them. However, the problem is if you have 2 or 3 TERRIBLE games in a single series. Then it doesn't matter if your last series was fantastic, and you had a couple great games in this one - it's a big issue.

What would constitute a "terrible game"? How about a .800-or-less save percentage? That is letting a goal in every 5 shots. That is definitely terrible, for playoff goaltending...to have more than one game of it in a series is really hard for a team to overcome. But in our Luongo-led cup run, it happened on two occasions:

2010-11 - Boston
Game 3 - .789
Game 4 - .800
Game 6 - .625

2010-11 - Chicago
Game 4 - .786
Game 5 - .667

So on our cup run, we had two series where our goalie gave us god-awful, terrible playoff goaltending for more than 1 game. That shouldn't be overlooked, or excused away.

Do other great goalies do that? Marty Brodeur has only had 1 series where he didn't save over 80% of the shots in more than one game, and that was in 1998-99 against a stacked Penguins team. There was only 1 game this last playoffs where his save percentage was that low. Then you have to go back to 2002-03 to find another game like that. He had 2 of those games in a full playoff run, but followed each of them up with shutouts.

OK, Brodeur is a tough comparison. How about Niemi then? He had 1 game where he had an .800 save percentage in his cup run - and that is it. No meltdowns, no multiple terrible games. He was steady, which gave the Hawks a chance to win every series. (In 2010-11 he had 2 terrible games in San Jose's first series with the Kings.)

M.A. Fleury just had 2 against the Flyers (funny how only two of those games were actually sub-.800). But that was the first time in his 75-game playoff career (14 more than Luongo) that he has had more than one game that bad in a series. And yet, everyone and their uncle will freely admit that Fleury had a terrible series and completely melted down.

...But some of those same people will say Lu's melting is overrated?


Well done, this hits it on the head. So well done in fact none of the Lou lovers even responded to it. We should add this to the Canucks homepage.
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#195 Merci

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

Well done, this hits it on the head. So well done in fact none of the Lou lovers even responded to it. We should add this to the Canucks homepage.


7uongo lovers will enevr open their eyes to these stats.
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#196 Primus099

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:02 PM

There's nothing wrong with the odd bad game. The best goalies out there have them. However, the problem is if you have 2 or 3 TERRIBLE games in a single series. Then it doesn't matter if your last series was fantastic, and you had a couple great games in this one - it's a big issue.

What would constitute a "terrible game"? How about a .800-or-less save percentage? That is letting a goal in every 5 shots. That is definitely terrible, for playoff goaltending...to have more than one game of it in a series is really hard for a team to overcome. But in our Luongo-led cup run, it happened on two occasions:

2010-11 - Boston
Game 3 - .789
Game 4 - .800
Game 6 - .625

2010-11 - Chicago
Game 4 - .786
Game 5 - .667


2010-11 Chicago
Game 1 - 1.000
Game 3 - .938
Game 6 - .923
Game 7 - .969

2010-11 Boston
Game 1 - 1.000
Game 2 - .933
Game 6 - 1.000

Problem Vince?

In the series against Boston as terrible as he was in Boston he was unreal at home, his GAA for the 4 home games was 1.5 and i'm sorry if your team can't score enough to win all 4 games when your goalie is keeping the other team to 1.5 goals then your goalie is not the only problem.
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#197 Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:11 PM

2010-11 Chicago
Game 1 - 1.000
Game 3 - .938
Game 6 - .923
Game 7 - .969

2010-11 Boston
Game 1 - 1.000
Game 2 - .933
Game 6 - 1.000

Problem Vince?

In the series against Boston as terrible as he was in Boston he was unreal at home, his GAA for the 4 home games was 1.5 and i'm sorry if your team can't score enough to win all 4 games when your goalie is keeping the other team to 1.5 goals then your goalie is not the only problem.


But he certainly is one of the problems. Name one other goalie to have a save percentage that low in all the losses. Or even two losses. It shouldn't happen, no way to win with that king of consistency.
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#198 Moonshinefe

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:13 PM

Look, I like Luongo. I think he has some great games sometimes and he's great during the regular season. But those of you trying to rewrite history with your rose coloured goggles and deny he has choked, BADLY, on multiple occasions in key games that cost us some playoff series are just fooling yourselves.

Luongo has melted down, and melted down badly. Certain teams just get in his head. And no, "But we weren't scoring enough" doesn't magically excuse the goaltender choking. I never understood that reasoning... maybe someone could explain how "we wouldn't have won without scoring anyway, meh" somehow makes poor goaltending OK. You need consistent goaltending to win the cup, so while it's nice Luongo sometimes gets a shutout, it sort of defeats the purpose of it when he lets in 4+ goals in other games by letting in softies.

You can tell it deflates the team too. Ever notice how the team 'mysteriously' plays better in front of Schneider? It's called having confidence in your last line of defence. It shows.

Edited by Moonshinefe, 10 January 2013 - 03:17 PM.

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#199 Primus099

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:18 PM

But he certainly is one of the problems. Name one other goalie to have a save percentage that low in all the losses. Or even two losses. It shouldn't happen, no way to win with that king of consistency.


Fleury and Niemi won cups with GAA's higher than Luongo;s was in 2011. Score some fracking goals
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#200 Merci

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:20 PM

Look, I like Luongo. I think he has some great games sometimes and he's great during the regular season. But those of you trying to rewrite history with your rose coloured goggles and deny he has choked, BADLY, on multiple occasions in key games that cost us some playoff series are just fooling yourselves.

Luongo has melted down, and melted down badly. Certain teams just get in his head. And no, "But we weren't scoring enough" doesn't magically excuse the goaltender choking. I never understood that reasoning... maybe someone could explain how "we wouldn't have won without scoring anyway, meh" somehow makes poor goaltending OK. You need consistent goaltending to win the cup, so while it's nice Luongo sometimes gets a shutout, it sort of defeats the purpose of it when he lets in 4+ goals in other games by letting in softies.

You can tell it deflates the team too. Ever notice how the team 'mysteriously' plays better in front of Schneider? It's called having confidence in your last line of defence. It shows.


Holy crap + a million
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#201 Primus099

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

You can tell it deflates the team too. Ever notice how the team 'mysteriously' plays better in front of Schneider? It's called having confidence in your last line of defence. It shows.


Schneider vs Kings: 1.33 GAA

Games we won: 1 out of 3

This is why people mention scoring, cause even when your goalie plays lights out it doesn't matter if you aren't scoring
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#202 Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:22 PM

Fleury and Niemi won cups with GAA's higher than Luongo;s was in 2011. Score some fracking goals


How about save percentages? Stop some fricken' shots already!
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#203 derr12

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:25 PM

You guys forget how bad the D coverage was in those games, It was brutal. Wouldnt be the last time either.

The last few months of the season last year and the playoffs was attrocious. Our best D-men were Eye humping the puck and leaving their assignments wide open. And holy crap they should have replaced Grags with any midget AAA player. Outstanding goaltending from BOTH goalies was the only reason We finished as good as we did.

In order to win vs boston our goalie has to get like 4 shutouts in a row, Has that ever happened before? Doubt it.
Mark my words, Fans will be running schneider out of town for the same crap in a few years. Canucks fans have short ???? memories....
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#204 Primus099

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:29 PM

How about save percentages? Stop some fricken' shots already!


Luongo in 2011: 2.56GAA .914 save %. no cup
Niemi in 2010: 2.63GAA .910. won cup
Fleury in 2009: 2.61GAA .908 save%. won cup

so those teams goalies had worse numbers than Luongo yet they won the cup, interesting.

Edited by Primus099, 10 January 2013 - 03:30 PM.

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#205 Moonshinefe

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:30 PM

You guys forget how bad the D coverage was in those games, It was brutal. Wouldnt be the last time either.

The last few months of the season last year and the playoffs was attrocious. Our best D-men were Eye humping the puck and leaving their assignments wide open. And holy crap they should have replaced Grags with any midget AAA player. Outstanding goaltending from BOTH goalies was the only reason We finished as good as we did.

In order to win vs boston our goalie has to get like 4 shutouts in a row, Has that ever happened before? Doubt it.
Mark my words, Fans will be running schneider out of town for the same crap in a few years. Canucks fans have short ???? memories....


I don't get why everyone keeps repeating "we ran Luongo out of town" and that we're "ungrateful".

- The vast majority of people I see on these forums and talk to in real life say they think Luongo is the best goalie we've had since Kirk McClean. I know I appreciate the work he has done.

- We've tried to win with Luongo for 7 years now, with no luck. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again while failing. It's time to move on.

- Luongo is ageing and his contract is fairly hefty. The salary cap will be lowering quite a bit in a year and we have another, younger, potentially elite goalie who has been waiting his turn for years to be a starter.

So no, I don't think the fans are ungrateful and I don't think Luongo is being run out of town. It just makes sense for the team (having tried him for several years) and for him personally (he could use a change of scenery to re-ignite his career) to move on. It's best for both of them.

Edited by Moonshinefe, 10 January 2013 - 03:30 PM.

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#206 Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

I don't get why everyone keeps repeating "we ran Luongo out of town" and that we're "ungrateful".

- The vast majority of people I see on these forums and talk to in real life say they think Luongo is the best goalie we've had since Kirk McClean. I know I appreciate the work he has done.

- We've tried to win with Luongo for 7 years now, with no luck. The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again while failing. It's time to move on.

- Luongo is ageing and his contract is fairly hefty. The salary cap will be lowering quite a bit in a year and we have another, younger, potentially elite goalie who has been waiting his turn for years to be a starter.

So no, I don't think the fans are ungrateful and I don't think Luongo is being run out of town. It just makes sense for the team (having tried him for several years) and for him personally (he could use a change of scenery to re-ignite his career) to move on. It's best for both of them.


Post of the year so far!! Well said.
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#207 Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

Luongo in 2011: 2.56GAA .914 save %. no cup
Niemi in 2010: 2.63GAA .910. won cup
Fleury in 2009: 2.61GAA .908 save%. won cup

so those teams goalies had worse numbers than Luongo yet they won the cup, interesting.


Now post the percentage for the finals.... and it will be obvious why we lost. And they try to find another goalie with stats as bad as Lui had in the finals and actually won.
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#208 Primus099

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

Now post the percentage for the finals.... and it will be obvious why we lost. And they try to find another goalie with stats as bad as Lui had in the finals and actually won.


well Detroit scored 17 goals in the games, Boston scored 23 1 was an empty net so 22 in 7 games. Really not that much of a difference, Pittsburgh scored as many goals in games 3 and 4 as we did in the entire series against Boston. Are you still not getting it yet? You can talk about save % all you want the fact is Luongo would have needed 4 shutouts for us to win we averaged 1.14 goals a game, yet somehow you keep bringing up his save % like it was the problem lol

Edited by Primus099, 10 January 2013 - 03:44 PM.

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#209 Aladeen

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:43 PM

Now post the percentage for the finals.... and it will be obvious why we lost. And they try to find another goalie with stats as bad as Lui had in the finals and actually won.

And find me another team that lost as much defensemen to injury or susupension or playing through injury as the Canucks that won. Give me a break lose 45% of your D and your done, Lui was the reason it went to 7.
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#210 Westcoasting

Westcoasting

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Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:59 PM

well Detroit scored 17 goals in the games, Boston scored 23 1 was an empty net so 22 in 7 games. Really not that much of a difference, Pittsburgh scored as many goals in games 3 and 4 as we did in the entire series against Boston. Are you still not getting it yet? You can talk about save % all you want the fact is Luongo would have needed 4 shutouts for us to win we averaged 1.14 goals a game, yet somehow you keep bringing up his save % like it was the problem lol


You are not getting it... who even wins games with a save percentage of .800 or lower. It doesn't happen. Yes the offense sucked big time too. But quit ignoring the fact that Lui sucked big time in all the losses.
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