Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo
* * * * - 4 votes

Does Luongo really meltdown in the playoffs?


  • Please log in to reply
307 replies to this topic

#211 Westcoasting

Westcoasting

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,331 posts
  • Joined: 29-March 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:01 PM

And find me another team that lost as much defensemen to injury or susupension or playing through injury as the Canucks that won. Give me a break lose 45% of your D and your done, Lui was the reason it went to 7.


You're right, if we switched goalies with Boston and had Tim Thomas in our net... Canucks would have won in five.
  • 2

#212 Primus099

Primus099

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: 17-October 12

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:06 PM

You are not getting it... who even wins games with a save percentage of .800 or lower. It doesn't happen. Yes the offense sucked big time too. But quit ignoring the fact that Lui sucked big time in all the losses.


I never said he didn't, but he was also the only reason we won 3 instead of 0
  • 0

#213 apollo

apollo

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,148 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:07 PM

You are not getting it... who even wins games with a save percentage of .800 or lower. It doesn't happen. Yes the offense sucked big time too. But quit ignoring the fact that Lui sucked big time in all the losses.


If the team supported him he would have had better stats in those four games.

How about game 7? he made a couple big saves and either Hank or Daniel whiffs at the Puck with a yawning cage in the first when the game was scoreless. If they buried the first goal luongo wouldn't have let in four.


  • 0

WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN MILLERMANIA RUNS WILDDDD ON YOU?!

 

Florida Panthers GM -  2014-15 Shapheat FHL


#214 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,001 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:08 PM

Now post the percentage for the finals.... and it will be obvious why we lost. And they try to find another goalie with stats as bad as Lui had in the finals and actually won.


This is the key.

2012 - Los Angeles - 0.877 save%

2011 - Boston - 0.891
2011 - San Jose - 0.931
2011 - Nashville - 0.933
2011 - Chicago - 0.903

2010 - Chicago - 0.897
2010 - Los Angeles - 0.893

2009 - Chicago - 0.879
2009 - St. Louis - 0.962


Lu's overall playoff stats these last few years look decently because of some very good series against St. Louis, Nashville, and San Jose. However, it's clear that each of the times we lost, goaltending was a large part of it. Sub-.900 isn't acceptable for a "franchise goaltender".

And I don't buy the whole "it doesn't matter if we lose 2-1 or 8-1" crap. If your team is in it, they're going to push extra hard to get the next goal. But if they are already pretty much out of the game because their goaltender let in 3 in the first 8 minutes of the game, they're not going to bust their injured butts just to make it more respectable.

Fact of the matter is, since the 2006-07 playoffs, the Canucks never lost a series where Luongo let in less than 10% of his shots. You'd think that if he is really as consistently amazing as his supporters claim, we would rarely lose a series under those circumstances. However, he saved 90% in less than half of the series we have played.

Edited by D-Money, 10 January 2013 - 04:10 PM.

  • 2
Posted Image

#215 apollo

apollo

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,148 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

This is the key.

2012 - Los Angeles - 0.877 save%

2011 - Boston - 0.891
2011 - San Jose - 0.931
2011 - Nashville - 0.933
2011 - Chicago - 0.903

2010 - Chicago - 0.897
2010 - Los Angeles - 0.893

2009 - Chicago - 0.879
2009 - St. Louis - 0.962


Lu's overall playoff stats these last few years look decently because of some very good series against St. Louis, Nashville, and San Jose. However, it's clear that each of the times we lost, goaltending was a large part of it. Sub-.900 isn't acceptable for a "franchise goaltender".

And I don't buy the whole "it doesn't matter if we lose 2-1 or 8-1" crap. If your team is in it, they're going to push extra hard to get the next goal. But if they are already pretty much out of the game because their goaltender let in 3 in the first 8 minutes of the game, they're not going to bust their injured butts just to make it more respectable.

Fact of the matter is, since the 2006-07 playoffs, the Canucks never lost a series where Luongo let in less than 10% of his shots. You'd think that if he is really as consistently amazing as his supporters claim, we would rarely lose a series under those circumstances. However, he saved 90% in less than half of the series we have played.


Are u kidding me? how about each time we won? It was mainly Lu.

Pull up the same stats for Thomas or Brodeur or lundqvist...

Those stats are irrelevant... did u watch each series? Stats don't mean crap. Watch the games... of u have played hockey and have an understanding of the game you will conclude most those loses or bad games; luongo was not to blame.
  • 1

WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN MILLERMANIA RUNS WILDDDD ON YOU?!

 

Florida Panthers GM -  2014-15 Shapheat FHL


#216 NuxFan09

NuxFan09

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,179 posts
  • Joined: 20-December 11

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

This is the key.

2012 - Los Angeles - 0.877 save%

2011 - Boston - 0.891
2011 - San Jose - 0.931
2011 - Nashville - 0.933
2011 - Chicago - 0.903

2010 - Chicago - 0.897
2010 - Los Angeles - 0.893

2009 - Chicago - 0.879
2009 - St. Louis - 0.962


Lu's overall playoff stats these last few years look decently because of some very good series against St. Louis, Nashville, and San Jose. However, it's clear that each of the times we lost, goaltending was a large part of it. Sub-.900 isn't acceptable for a "franchise goaltender".

And I don't buy the whole "it doesn't matter if we lose 2-1 or 8-1" crap. If your team is in it, they're going to push extra hard to get the next goal. But if they are already pretty much out of the game because their goaltender let in 3 in the first 8 minutes of the game, they're not going to bust their injured butts just to make it more respectable.

Fact of the matter is, since the 2006-07 playoffs, the Canucks never lost a series where Luongo let in less than 10% of his shots. You'd think that if he is really as consistently amazing as his supporters claim, we would rarely lose a series under those circumstances. However, he saved 90% in less than half of the series we have played.


I'll admit, this is a good way to break it down and it is very telling. I think the biggest problem with the Canucks is that they never have everything working at the same time. When Luongo is on, the offense fails or it's JUST good enough to squeak by. When the offense is going, though, Luongo seems to become a sieve. Sometimes, both the scoring and the goaltending are bad.

The Canucks as a team just have to perform better in the tight moments in the playoffs. That's the bottom line.
  • 2

#217 Tortorella's Rant

Tortorella's Rant

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,214 posts
  • Joined: 11-April 12

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:17 PM

Now post the percentage for the finals.... and it will be obvious why we lost. And they try to find another goalie with stats as bad as Lui had in the finals and actually won.


And now post our goals for vs their goals for (Not the Bruins). And it will be obvious why we lost.

See? This is ultimately a circular argument and both sides have to admit that there were issues at both ends of the ice. If an individual cannot do that then they are dishonest and there is no point talking to them anymore.

Edited by Tortorella's Rant, 10 January 2013 - 04:18 PM.

  • 0
Posted Image

#218 Primus099

Primus099

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: 17-October 12

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

I'll admit, this is a good way to break it down and it is very telling. I think the biggest problem with the Canucks is that they never have everything working at the same time. When Luongo is on, the offense fails or it's JUST good enough to squeak by. When the offense is going, though, Luongo seems to become a sieve. Sometimes, both the scoring and the goaltending are bad.

The Canucks as a team just have to perform better in the tight moments in the playoffs. That's the bottom line.


/thread
  • 0

#219 apollo

apollo

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,148 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

I'll admit, this is a good way to break it down and it is very telling. I think the biggest problem with the Canucks is that they never have everything working at the same time. When Luongo is on, the offense fails or it's JUST good enough to squeak by. When the offense is going, though, Luongo seems to become a sieve. Sometimes, both the scoring and the goaltending are bad.

The Canucks as a team just have to perform better in the tight moments in the playoffs. That's the bottom line.


How much more success do u expect?? The NHL playoffs are extremely difficult to succeed in. There is a reason why the president trophy winners don't win the cup every year.

One bad bounce... one bad call... one bad injury... one bad injury that the media may not b made aware off... some random 22 year old playing lights out... all these can make or break a series.

We proved what a dominant team we are the past three years. The stars just didn't align to win a cup for us. We shouldn't jump ship on the MAIN player that made all tis success possible.
  • 0

WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN MILLERMANIA RUNS WILDDDD ON YOU?!

 

Florida Panthers GM -  2014-15 Shapheat FHL


#220 Nino

Nino

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,650 posts
  • Joined: 10-May 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:37 PM

And now post our goals for vs their goals for (Not the Bruins). And it will be obvious why we lost.

See? This is ultimately a circular argument and both sides have to admit that there were issues at both ends of the ice. If an individual cannot do that then they are dishonest and there is no point talking to them anymore.


You are 100% right, there are issues with goaltending and scoring, none is to blame more then the other. We can't win if the goaltending is inconsistent or if we can't put the puck in the net.

What to do? How about trading the inconsistent playoff goalie (who can play great at times) for scoring help. Problem solved........
  • 0

#221 apollo

apollo

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,148 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:42 PM

You are 100% right, there are issues with goaltending and scoring, none is to blame more then the other. We can't win if the goaltending is inconsistent or if we can't put the puck in the net.

What to do? How about trading the inconsistent playoff goalie (who can play great at times) for scoring help. Problem solved........

How is it problem solved if the guy replacing the goalie hasn't proved anything. I'm not saying Schneider isn't good.. it's a fact that he IS NOT a proven elite goaltender.We would be taking a big risk.
  • 0

WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN MILLERMANIA RUNS WILDDDD ON YOU?!

 

Florida Panthers GM -  2014-15 Shapheat FHL


#222 NuxFan09

NuxFan09

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,179 posts
  • Joined: 20-December 11

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

How much more success do u expect?? The NHL playoffs are extremely difficult to succeed in. There is a reason why the president trophy winners don't win the cup every year.

One bad bounce... one bad call... one bad injury... one bad injury that the media may not b made aware off... some random 22 year old playing lights out... all these can make or break a series.

We proved what a dominant team we are the past three years. The stars just didn't align to win a cup for us. We shouldn't jump ship on the MAIN player that made all tis success possible.


Oh, come on. Yes, only one team can win the Cup every year and all that, but everyone and their grandma can tell you that the Canucks absolutely blew it in the 2011 finals. It was an underachievement that bordered on embarrassment with the way they played, top to bottom.

This is coming from someone who tries to see the best in this team too. This is also coming from someone who just posted earlier in this thread that Luongo hasn't melted down nearly as much as people suggest. I definitely don't put sole blame on him for the team's playoff failures but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Luongo has let the team down in some crucial moments.

The playoffs are filled with goalie heroics. Do you think that all the teams that have won the Cup in recent years have relied on their goalie to simply make the saves they're supposed to make? No, they've all relied on their goalies to save the day at one point or another.

Cup winning goalies and their playoff stats since the 05/06 season:

Cam Ward - 2.14 GAA, .920 Save%

J.S. Giguere - 1.97 GAA, .922 Save%

Chris Osgood - 1.55 GAA, .930 Save%

Marc-Andre Fleury - 2.61 GAA, .908 Save%

Antti Niemi - 2.63 GAA, .910 Save%

Tim Thomas - 1.98 GAA, .940 Save%

Jonathan Quick - 1.41 GAA, .946 Save%


The exceptions there are the Penguins with Fleury and the Blackhawks with Niemi, but those teams both had their offense going at full throttle. If they Penguins and Blackhawks didn't have two Conn Smythe winners between them (Malkin and Toews) and great supporting casts playing really well then I can guarantee the performances of both Fleury and Niemi would not have been good enough.

So the moral of the story is, the Canucks needed not just stolid goaltending but great goaltending from Luongo. That or they needed their top offensive players to step up. Take your pick.

Edited by NuxFan09, 10 January 2013 - 04:47 PM.

  • 0

#223 vanhalendlrband

vanhalendlrband

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 978 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 04

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

I have been absent too long.

Luongo is not at fault FOR ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!

We had defensive breakdowns almost every game including the game we didn't score any goals in game 7. He wasn't at fault against Los Angeles at all. Its absolutely hilarious how little reporters know and the fans are all over him.

If Luongo ever reads this, remember it was the same way with Kirk McLean. One of the best goalies all time with a horrible defense around him and he gets blamed for everything. Corey Hirsch almost stole the job cuz he got on a little hot streak, very similar to how well Schneider has played.

I don't think Schneider has proven himself enough, he's never started for an entire season and I just don't see him doing as well as Luongo but if he becomes our #1 guy i'll sure as hell hope he will prove me wrong. Goalies can be outstanding into their late 30's like Roloson and Hasek. Maybe Luongo can't do the pressure anymore but i just am still unsure about how good Schneider really is. I mean if he was that much better than Luongo he would've done better than 1-2 vs Luongos 0-2. Whose to say Luongo doesn't win a third game if given the oppurtunity. Luongo is the type of superstar that in game 3 would've upped his game to almost unreal ability. I truly believe that and I was shocked with all the injuries they were dealin with that they'd give up on Luongo so quick. I could care less if Schneider gets a 960 over 3 games, its only 3 games and he lost 2 of them.

Luongos the best thing to come along since Kirk Mclean but everyones ready to turn their back on him like nothing and its a joke. Its all these people i know in my social circles that know nothing about hockey read Province artile 1,035 on Vancouver goaltending. Its the same story probably even from the SAME guy that goes back WAY before Luongo showed up. Every game the team loses a picture of the goalie on the back.

Luongo could win us a cup. If our team is there. Lets face it had Boston lost Lucic and Chara in that series to injury it would've been ours. We lost Dan Hamhuis and others throughout the series that had a big impact on how good we were. You can't lose certain players, we lost the ones you couldn't lose, boston lost the ones they could easily easily afford to lose. Had we a 100% daniel sedin we would've dominated. It would be like if any of LA's top line wasn't there in the playoffs, an entirely different story and no LA kings cup win. SOme guys you can survive without, others you can't. Luongo should start for us this year.
  • 0

#224 Nino

Nino

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,650 posts
  • Joined: 10-May 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:51 PM

How is it problem solved if the guy replacing the goalie hasn't proved anything. I'm not saying Schneider isn't good.. it's a fact that he IS NOT a proven elite goaltender.We would be taking a big risk.


But Lou is not an elite goalie, he can play like one at times but you have to look at the whole picture. If if we go with Lou we are taking a big risk as well, as we have seen for a number of years now. I would go with the risk of Cory )as the Canucks brass would) before the risk of Lou. It looks like my assement may hold a little more clout then your as that's the direction the team is going.
  • 0

#225 apollo

apollo

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,148 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:52 PM

Oh, come on. Yes, only one team can win the Cup every year and all that, but everyone and their grandma can tell you that the Canucks absolutely blew it in the 2011 finals. It was an underachievement that bordered on embarrassment with the way they played, top to bottom.

This is coming from someone who tries to see the best in this team too. This is also coming from someone who just posted earlier in this thread that Luongo hasn't melted down nearly as much as people suggest. I definitely don't put sole blame on him for the team's playoff failures but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Luongo has let the team down in some crucial moments.

The playoffs are filled with goalie heroics. Do you think that all the teams that have won the Cup in recent years have relied on their goalie to simply make the saves they're supposed to make? No, they've all relied on their goalies to save the day at one point or another.

Cup winning goalies and their playoff stats since the 05/06 season:

Cam Ward - 2.14 GAA, .920 Save%

J.S. Giguere - 1.97 GAA, .922 Save%

Chris Osgood - 1.55 GAA, .930 Save%

Marc-Andre Fleury - 2.61 GAA, .908 Save%

Antti Niemi - 2.63 GAA, .910 Save%

Tim Thomas - 1.98 GAA, .940 Save%

Jonathan Quick - 1.41 GAA, .946 Save%


The exceptions there are the Penguins with Fleury and the Blackhawks with Niemi, but those teams both had their offense going at full throttle. If they Penguins and Blackhawks didn't have two Conn Smythe winners between them (Malkin and Toews) and great supporting casts playing really well then I can guarantee the performances of both Fleury and Niemi would not have been good enough.

So the moral of the story is, the Canucks needed not just stolid goaltending but great goaltending from Luongo. That or they needed their top offensive players to step up. Take your pick.


I don't entirely disagree with u but luongo did make big saves when they mattered in 2011. I'll go as far as saying he made more key saves WHEN his team was desperate for him to than Thomas did in those playoffs.

The difference is Boston didn't put their goalie in those situations as much as Vancouver did. I'm talking all four series.

Also I'll bring up the krejci save he made early in game 7... when it mattered luongo did make huge saves.

How many giant saves was he supposed to make? There was a point he couldn't bail the team out anymore. They didn't score and gave a guy like marchand who was ln fire chance after chance in game 7
  • 0

WHATCHU GONNA DO WHEN MILLERMANIA RUNS WILDDDD ON YOU?!

 

Florida Panthers GM -  2014-15 Shapheat FHL


#226 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13,001 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:54 PM

So, as I pointed out above, in the last four years, Luongo has only stopped 90% or more of his shots for a series four times - less than half! He was under 90% save percentage in 5/9 series.

How have other top goaltenders fared in the same timeframe?

Tim Thomas
2012 - Washington - 0.923 save%
2011 - Vancouver - 0.967
2011 - Tampa Bay - 0.916
2011 - Philadelphia - 0.953
2011 - Montreal - 0.926
2009 - Carolina - 0.929
2009 - Montreal - 0.946

Thomas played seven series, and never once came even close to letting in 10% of his shots in any one of them.

Jonathon Quick
2012 - New Jersey - 0.947
2012 - Phoenix - 0.939
2012 - St. Louis - 0.941
2012 - Vancouver - 0.953
2011 - San Jose - 0.913
2010 - Vancouver - 0.884

In six series, Quick only let in over 10% once - but that was as a fresh-faced 24 year-old getting his first taste of playoff action. He's been significantly better since.


Martin Brodeur
2012 - Los Angeles - 0.900
2012 - NY Rangers - 0.927
2012 - Philadelphia - 0.918
2012 - Florida - 0.922
2010 - Philadelphia - 0.881
2009 - Carolina - 0.929

Marty Brodeur isn't as good as he once was, but even he has only turned in a single sub-90% series in his last six. And the time he did, there were some real questions about his ability, and whether he had played too many games that year.


This is the kind of consistency a top, franchise goaltender should give your team. When it comes down to it, Luongo simply doesn't compare. He'll steal you a couple of games, and even a series. But then, suddenly, a team will get to him, and he's suddenly a below-average goaltender for multiple games.

Heck, even Antti Niemi has been over 90% in save percentage in at least half of his playoff series in the last few years (4/8).

So, if Luongo can't be counted on to be a true franchise goaltender when it matters most, what is all the fuss about? Trade him, fill some holes, and let's hope playoff-Schneider pans out to be more of a Thomas/Quick/Brodeur than a Niemi/Luongo.

Edited by D-Money, 10 January 2013 - 05:00 PM.

  • 0
Posted Image

#227 vanhalendlrband

vanhalendlrband

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 978 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 04

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

Oh, come on. Yes, only one team can win the Cup every year and all that, but everyone and their grandma can tell you that the Canucks absolutely blew it in the 2011 finals. It was an underachievement that bordered on embarrassment with the way they played, top to bottom.

This is coming from someone who tries to see the best in this team too. This is also coming from someone who just posted earlier in this thread that Luongo hasn't melted down nearly as much as people suggest. I definitely don't put sole blame on him for the team's playoff failures but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Luongo has let the team down in some crucial moments.

The playoffs are filled with goalie heroics. Do you think that all the teams that have won the Cup in recent years have relied on their goalie to simply make the saves they're supposed to make? No, they've all relied on their goalies to save the day at one point or another.

Cup winning goalies and their playoff stats since the 05/06 season:

Cam Ward - 2.14 GAA, .920 Save%

J.S. Giguere - 1.97 GAA, .922 Save%

Chris Osgood - 1.55 GAA, .930 Save%

Marc-Andre Fleury - 2.61 GAA, .908 Save%

Antti Niemi - 2.63 GAA, .910 Save%

Tim Thomas - 1.98 GAA, .940 Save%

Jonathan Quick - 1.41 GAA, .946 Save%


The exceptions there are the Penguins with Fleury and the Blackhawks with Niemi, but those teams both had their offense going at full throttle. If they Penguins and Blackhawks didn't have two Conn Smythe winners between them (Malkin and Toews) and great supporting casts playing really well then I can guarantee the performances of both Fleury and Niemi would not have been good enough.

So the moral of the story is, the Canucks needed not just stolid goaltending but great goaltending from Luongo. That or they needed their top offensive players to step up. Take your pick.


This is what people don't understand they read all those stats. Did you watch any of those games? Guaranteed their defence kept all those 30 shots to the outside each of those games and weren't letting 2 on 1's happen all game like the Canucks were.

Like my post above says, there were a combination of factors at play. Luongo is not at fault. He's been getting harped on for Cancuks defensive breakdowns the entire time he's been here. He can't stop every 2 on 1 we let happen 4 or 5 times a game.

We also made a grave error with signing Keith Ballard. If we didn't sign him we'd still have Salo and Ehrhoff. Ehrhoff would've single-handedly made that series much better.

Those stats only show so much. They don't show how well the defense played in front or what kind of shots were going through. Compare the defense in Boston vs Vancouver, see who lets more odd man rushes happen and then figure out why even tho the shots are even why the other team is a head or why the other goalies "isn't playing as well". I've seen 4-1 losses where the losing goalie played way more steller than the goalie who only let in one goal on several occasions. It ain't no different here.

We are making a mistake to fully trust Schneider after 60 games in 3 seasons over a guy who plays 60 games a season. If luongo really doesn't want to be here thats one thing, then i would rather someone be here that won't be distracted, but if its because of an actualy comparison between the two goalies i'd say that doesn't make too much sense to me.
  • 0

#228 hudson bay rules

hudson bay rules

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,386 posts
  • Joined: 03-November 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 04:57 PM

I don't blame Luongo for us loosing the cup but I do blame him for not keeping us in every game.
  • 3
I love rock and roll, just put another dime in the juice box baby.

#229 vanhalendlrband

vanhalendlrband

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 978 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 04

Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:00 PM

The only reason why you see goalies have

I don't blame Luongo for us loosing the cup but I do blame him for not keeping us in every game.


The only reason why you see goalies have stellar games is because their defense is preventing the plays that are impossible for any goalie to save. The Canucks were not doing that last year or the year before, and thats the only reason why you may perceive any kind of goaltending breakdown but its not really there its the defense.
  • 0

#230 vanhalendlrband

vanhalendlrband

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 978 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 04

Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

So, as I pointed out above, in the last four years, Luongo has only stopped 90% or more of his shots for a series four times - less than half! He was under 90% save percentage in 5/9 series.

How have other top goaltenders fared in the same timeframe?

Tim Thomas
2012 - Washington - 0.923 save%
2011 - Vancouver - 0.967
2011 - Tampa Bay - 0.916
2011 - Philadelphia - 0.953
2011 - Montreal - 0.926
2009 - Carolina - 0.929
2009 - Montreal - 0.946

Thomas played seven series, and never once came even close to letting in 10% of his shots in any one of them.

Jonathon Quick
2012 - New Jersey - 0.947
2012 - Phoenix - 0.939
2012 - St. Louis - 0.941
2012 - Vancouver - 0.953
2011 - San Jose - 0.913
2010 - Vancouver - 0.884

In six series, Quick only let in over 10% once - but that was as a fresh-faced 24 year-old getting his first taste of playoff action. He's been significantly better since.


Martin Brodeur
2012 - Los Angeles - 0.900
2012 - NY Rangers - 0.927
2012 - Philadelphia - 0.918
2012 - Florida - 0.922
2010 - Philadelphia - 0.881
2009 - Carolina - 0.929

Marty Brodeur isn't as good as he once was, but even he has only turned in a single sub-90% series in his last six. And the time he did, there were some real questions about his ability, and whether he had played too many games that year.


This is the kind of consistency a top, franchise goaltender should give your team. When it comes down to it, Luongo simply doesn't compare. He'll steal you a couple of games, and even a series. But then, suddenly, a team will get to him, and he's suddenly a below-average goaltender for multiple games.

Heck, even Antti Niemi has been over 90% in save percentage in at least half of his playoff series in the last few years (4/8).

So, if Luongo can't be counted on to be a true franchise goaltender when it matters most, what is all the fuss about? Trade him, fill some holes, and let's hope playoff-Schneider pans out to be more of a Thomas/Quick/Brodeur than a Niemi/Luongo.


These are all just numbers. My post up a bit more states how you don't know how well the defense is playing in front of the goalie in those games. Most of those games with a guy like chara you can keep all those shots to the outside and be relatively easy to save most of the time with the odd big save. Any goalie can do that. Put Tim Thomas on the Vancouver Canucks last year or the year before and he gets worse numbers than Luongo guaranteed.
  • 0

#231 Westcoasting

Westcoasting

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,331 posts
  • Joined: 29-March 10

Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:14 PM

These are all just numbers. My post up a bit more states how you don't know how well the defense is playing in front of the goalie in those games. Most of those games with a guy like chara you can keep all those shots to the outside and be relatively easy to save most of the time with the odd big save. Any goalie can do that. Put Tim Thomas on the Vancouver Canucks last year or the year before and he gets worse numbers than Luongo guaranteed.


So why would management pull him out of last years playoffs knowing that would be the final nail in the coffin for Luongo? If this guy is so good and better than a two time Vezina winnerand Conn Smythe trophy winner, why would they rock the boat and get ready to ship him out of here? Is your hockey knowledge and vision better than all the Canucks management combined to make a smarter decision than them? Why would they just not trade Schneider and treat Luongo with the royalty that you seem to think he deserves here?
  • 2

#232 NuxFan09

NuxFan09

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,179 posts
  • Joined: 20-December 11

Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:28 PM

I think most people in this discussion are actually making great points, which brings me to the point I made before:

Collectively, the team needs to be better. The goaltending could be more reliable, the defense could tighten up a bit more, and the scoring could be sharper.

As far as the goaltending is concerned, I can't help but point out that last year against the Kings, the Canucks were having the same kind of defensive breakdowns as they normally do but Schneider still managed to go beast mode, while Luongo was again sub-par. Not bad, just sub-par.
  • 0

#233 RAMBUTANS

RAMBUTANS

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,410 posts
  • Joined: 14-July 06

Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:04 PM

He doesn't melt down, he only allows 8 goals a game in the SCF.
  • 2
Mr. Reputable of the HFBoards

#234 Riviera82

Riviera82

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,598 posts
  • Joined: 15-February 11

Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:04 PM

I'd rather not lose. If the Canucks can't score they lose. Very simple. The question would hold weight if the scores were 6-5 or even 8-7. But the Canucks can't score during the playoffs because they miss the intangibles required to win playoff games, which do not factor in on a Moneyball blueprint.

The 1994 Canucks win the Cup over the current Canucks any day because they had passion, toughness, poise, heart and determination. This team doesn't. It has great scoring during the season but come playoff time when things get tough, your top players disappear when you need them most. This team is not built for a Cup and in a shortened season, the competition will be even fiercer, which does not bode well for Vancouver. Top 8 most likely but bottom of that top.

Blame Luongo.


Hey we agree on something! I prefer the 1994 team as well.
  • 0

#235 riffraff

riffraff

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,071 posts
  • Joined: 10-April 07

Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:16 PM

Yes
  • 0
Posted Image


CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#236 Tortorella's Rant

Tortorella's Rant

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,214 posts
  • Joined: 11-April 12

Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:30 PM

You are 100% right, there are issues with goaltending and scoring, none is to blame more then the other. We can't win if the goaltending is inconsistent or if we can't put the puck in the net.

What to do? How about trading the inconsistent playoff goalie (who can play great at times) for scoring help. Problem solved........


First off, I would like you to stop suggesting Luongo's salary is detrimental to the team. His salary is irrelevant. His cap hit is what counts. At the end of the day, numerous goalies who have accomplished as much as him, have a million dollars or more cap hit than he does.

Scoring 'help' = problem solved. Right. Unless that return is a legitimate top six player, and when I say legitimate, I mean someone who is GUARANTEED 60+ points and 25+ goals. Otherwise you're just adding another guy who might make 50 points and 15-20 goals max. We already have enough of those guys (Hansen, Higgins, Malhotra, Booth, Raymond, Lapierre) and these guys collectively struggle to score in the playoffs as we've all witnessed. That isn't going to solve anything. Tyler Bozak isn't going to solve post season struggles. In fact he is precisely just another player as mentioned above.
  • 0
Posted Image

#237 Riviera82

Riviera82

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,598 posts
  • Joined: 15-February 11

Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:41 PM

Roberto is the only reason we didn't get swept in the finals.

Those are some very interesting stats and I hadn't thought about it before... when the canucks lose they lose big in the playoffs. End of the day it doesn't matter if u lose by one goal or by five. Like we saw in the hawks series: we got out scored and won the series. The deciding factor in the series was the goaltending.

Luongo came into his own in 2009-2010. He was very shaky in the playoffs prior to those years... the paSt two year luongo has been clutch. I wouldn't take any other goalie over him... he stands on his head when it matters.


What exactly are you on right now? Your post makes absolutely zero sense.

It doesn't matter if you lose by 1 goal or 5? What if your'e down 4-0 after the 1st period? Doesn't it matter if the game is already over 20 minutes in?

Luongo came into his own in 09/10 and he was shaky in the playoffs prior to that? Luongo's first 3 series were probably his best ever (Dallas, Anaheim, St.Louis), he went downhill after that.

Luongo's been clutch the last 2 years?? That's very debatable.

He stands on his head when it matters?? Maybe I'm wrong but I think these games mattered a lot.
2009 - Game 6 vs. Chicago, 7-5 L, Canucks eliminated.
2010 - Game 6 vs. Chicago, 5-1 L, Canucks eliminated.
2011 - Game 4 vs. Chicago, 7-2 L, Canucks series lead cut to 3-1.
2011 - Game 5 vs. Chicago, 5-0 L, Canucks series lead cut to 3-2.
2011 - Game 6 vs. Chicago, 4-3 L, Canucks series lead is gone, Luongo gives up OT winner in a bellyflop to "sniper" Ben Smith.
2011 - Game 7 vs. Chicago, 2-1 W, Canucks win but Luongo gives up shorthanded goal at the end of the game to send it to OT.
2011 - Game 3 vs. Boston, 8-1 L, Canucks series lead cut to 2-1, Luongo refuses to be pulled and our momentum is gone.
2011 - Game 4 vs. Boston, 4-0 L, Canucks series lead is gone, 2-2 tie.
2011 - Game 6 vs. Boston, 5-2 L, Canucks lose 3-2 series lead, Luongo loses the game in the first 8 minutes.
2011 - Game 7 vs. Boston, 4-0 L, Canucks lose the Stanley Cup at home in a blowout, Luongo stops 17 of 20 shots. Tim Thomas stops 37 for the shutout and Cup. Congratulations.

This is the guy you'd want more than anyone else? You can have him.
  • 2

#238 Primus099

Primus099

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,009 posts
  • Joined: 17-October 12

Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

What exactly are you on right now? Your post makes absolutely zero sense.

It doesn't matter if you lose by 1 goal or 5? What if your'e down 4-0 after the 1st period? Doesn't it matter if the game is already over 20 minutes in?

Luongo came into his own in 09/10 and he was shaky in the playoffs prior to that? Luongo's first 3 series were probably his best ever (Dallas, Anaheim, St.Louis), he went downhill after that.

Luongo's been clutch the last 2 years?? That's very debatable.

He stands on his head when it matters?? Maybe I'm wrong but I think these games mattered a lot.
2009 - Game 6 vs. Chicago, 7-5 L, Canucks eliminated.
2010 - Game 6 vs. Chicago, 5-1 L, Canucks eliminated.
2011 - Game 4 vs. Chicago, 7-2 L, Canucks series lead cut to 3-1.
2011 - Game 5 vs. Chicago, 5-0 L, Canucks series lead cut to 3-2.
2011 - Game 6 vs. Chicago, 4-3 L, Canucks series lead is gone, Luongo gives up OT winner in a bellyflop to "sniper" Ben Smith.
2011 - Game 7 vs. Chicago, 2-1 W, Canucks win but Luongo gives up shorthanded goal at the end of the game to send it to OT.
2011 - Game 3 vs. Boston, 8-1 L, Canucks series lead cut to 2-1, AV refuses to pull Luongo and our momentum is gone.
2011 - Game 4 vs. Boston, 4-0 L, Canucks series lead is gone, 2-2 tie.
2011 - Game 6 vs. Boston, 5-2 L, Canucks lose 3-2 series lead, Luongo loses the game in the first 8 minutes.
2011 - Game 7 vs. Boston, 4-0 L, Canucks lose the Stanley Cup at home in a blowout, Luongo stops 17 of 20 shots. Tim Thomas stops 37 for the shutout and Cup. Congratulations.

This is the guy you'd want more than anyone else? You can have him.


fixed
  • 0

#239 Riviera82

Riviera82

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,598 posts
  • Joined: 15-February 11

Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:55 PM

Luongo in 2011: 2.56GAA .914 save %. no cup
Niemi in 2010: 2.63GAA .910. won cup
Fleury in 2009: 2.61GAA .908 save%. won cup

so those teams goalies had worse numbers than Luongo yet they won the cup, interesting.


And they are the only ones in recent memory to win with such mediocre statistics. These are not the norm, they are the exceptions.
  • 0

#240 Riviera82

Riviera82

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,598 posts
  • Joined: 15-February 11

Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:12 PM

fixed


As far as I can recall, AV asked Luongo if he wanted to be pulled out and Luongo said no.
  • 0




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.