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CanucksJay

Raymond? Do We Really Want Him?

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Raymond is not a prospect/project anymore. He is 26 years-old, and has played 350 NHL games (inc playoffs). It's safe to say he is as good now as he will ever be.

A couple of years ago - maybe even just one year ago - your argument would have had merit. But add in another season, a full run of the playoffs (with 8 points), it's crystal clear now. The potentially/likely career-limiting injury is the icing on the cake.

I don't need to guess who AV thinks are the best defensive forwards on our team. All I have to do is look at the PK TOI/game of our forwards:

1 Manny Malhotra - 2:38

2 Jannik Hansen - 2:21

3 Ryan Kesler - 2:14

4 Alexandre Burrows - 2:04

5 Maxim Lapierre - 1:22

6 Chris Higgins - 1:15

7 Mason Raymond - 1:13

Mason is pretty good defensively, but he's far from our best... ...pretty much the same as he is offensively.

Every player on an AV-coached team needs to make a commitment to defensive responsibilities, or they simply won't get icetime (see: Ballard). Booth is new to our team and coach, so he's learning what is expected of him. Whereas Raymond has been groomed by AV to play a 2-way game.

Seriously? Pulling up quotes from years ago, when Raymond was a prospect?

I can find you some glowing articles on Marek Zagrapan, Sasha Pokulok, and Alex Bourret too (the 1st rounders from Raymond's draft year who have yet to play an NHL game). Doesn't mean that they should be considered valuable now.

Just because some once thought Raymond was the steal of the draft doesn't mean he's anywhere near the league of Letang, Quick, or Yandle...who were all picked after him.

In retrospect, he was still a good pick, as only a handful of the 178 players picked after him ended up better. But just realize he is now all he'll ever be. If we can move him for a better player - or even a player whose role is more needed - we should do it.

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I have to agree with this. I also agree with bot CanucksJay and Baggins.

I think that if Raymond could be moved for the type of player that CJ wants, then Gillis should do it. However, I also agree with Baggins in that I don't see how Raymond is going to bring us said player. And if it means that the trading partner wants us to throw is a first-round pick, or a prospect like Schroeder or Jensen, then my answer would be "no thanks".

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I thought Raymond had another very strong game last night but I wasn't able to get around to the third period tally (nor could I handle sitting through that PHX snorefest for a 2nd time).

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I thought Raymond had another very strong game last night but I wasn't able to get around to the third period tally (nor could I handle sitting through that PHX snorefest for a 2nd time).

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So, who else wants to start a 'popular' thread? There are now 21 Canucks to choose from since Burrows and Raymond are gone...

'(Insert Current Canuck here)? Do We Really Want Him?'

and you'll garner all the attention you want...

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So basically the argument distills down to:

Anti-Raymond Camp: He's not producing now. We need to win now and if he can be traded for someone who will give us immediate results with grit, size and a bit of scoring, then yes. We need to trade him regardless of his (skeptical) room for growth.

Pro-Raymond Camp: He's not producing now. But he's only 26 years old, has room for improvement, and is a great 2 way player that contributes to the team, despite not being as noticeable. He provides depth than any trades would get us, and is used to AV's system and has a history of chemistry with Kesler. Trading him may be shortsighted (see Grabner). Canucks have had many players (currently on the roster) who have had slower development, but that doesn't mean we should give up on Raymond.

Good arguments from both sides. It comes down to what MG thinks. I think MG will keep him for another year. This group (including Raymond) is too good to not give them another chance to go for it together.

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349 career games (inc playoffs) with 143 points (including 8 playoff points). That was actually Henrik Sedins first four seasons. I'd wager you were one of the many that labelled him a bust. Daniel in his first four years was 346 career games (inc playoffs) with 164 points (including 13 playoff points).

For comparison Raymond is:

349 career games (inc playoffs) with 164 points (including 15 playoff points).

Now the Sedins were younger, but they still had four NHL 2nd line seasons.

Martin St Louis had a career season high of 40 points before the 02/03 season when at 27 he had a 70 point season. Todd Bertuzzi at 26 had a career high season of 55 points. The following season he had 85 points. Markus Naslund had a career high of 65 points at 26 years of age. he followed that up with 75, 90 and 104 points seasons. At 26 Alex Burrows had a career season high of 12 goals/31 points.

The truth is you don't know with any certainty at all that Raymond has peaked any more than people did about those mentioned above.

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Each one of those player who did gain success did so after evolving their game. The twins started to add the transitional game instead of just always cycling in the corner, Bertuzzi started to actually use his bigger stature, Naslund was always a good player but lacked confidence. Raymond, his game never changed and it seems like it'll never change. His only asset is his speed and even then it's very predictable. He's only fast going straight, where other players like Gaborik, Grabner, and Bure, they're great at stick-handling, but they can shift to another gear when going by a defenseman. Raymond is already going top-speed, so you can already see it coming. His shot spot is decent, his playmaking ability is non-existent and is positioning is marginal at best.

On a slightly different note... ever wonder why when Raymond goes to 50 points one, people are raving about him... yet Samuelsson had back to back 50 points and people aren't happy?

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Could you not have said exactly the same thing about each of those players I mentioned at age 26? Then they got smarter and started using they're skills better. How can you possibly say without a doubt that Raymond can't get better? Without a crystal ball you can't.

Samuelsson is easy to explain. When the fickle fans here turn on a player it's very difficult for the player to win them back. The first half of last season Samuelsson was in the same boat as Raymond. Injury problems and playing a 2nd PP unit that got less time and had a 25 point center instead of the 70 point center they had the previous year. His points were down in the first half just like Raymond. The fickle fans turned on both of them. Samuelsson made up his points in the second half when Edler went down and he was put on the 1st PP unit point. Allowing him to rack up some points in the second half playing behind the Sedins and Kesler. But it was mainly assists while the fickle fans expected at least the 30 goals he scored the year before. Meanwhile Raymond was still struggling away on the 2nd PP unit which was made weaker still with the removal of Samuelsson. The PP is where Raymonds production took a drop. Even strength Raymond was on pace to exceed his previous years even strength total. I was actually more critical of Raymond during his 50 point season than I was last season.

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let's see, our team is near the top of the league, striving to win us, our first ever stanley cup.....why wouldn't we tear down our players and tell them, they suck?....we've done it to luongo, AV, bieksa, salo, ballard, weise, malhotra, rome, alberts and who knows, who else....are we never satisfied?

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let's see, our team is near the top of the league, striving to win us, our first ever stanley cup.....why wouldn't we tear down our players and tell them, they suck?....we've done it to luongo, AV, bieksa, salo, ballard, weise, malhotra, rome, alberts and who knows, who else....are we never satisfied?

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Well said, Bodee .. +1 .. fickle folk abound .. Raymond loves it when Ballard is healthy as Keith gets the "hate" .. :P

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Could you not have said exactly the same thing about each of those players I mentioned at age 26? Then they got smarter and started using they're skills better. How can you possibly say without a doubt that Raymond can't get better? Without a crystal ball you can't.

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Mason will become a great player, all he needs is more time to develop. That includes the regular opportunity to play on the power play. He requires 16 - 18 minutes ice time per game to properly develop. Its hard for any young player to develop when you have Sedins on your team. The Sedins must have No. 1 line status and P.P. This takes away from any ones development. Remember 2 years ago when Raymond led the team in P.P. goals with 8. After that he was dropped from No. 1 P.P. The main reason was the salary cap. Can't pay him too much. Just like Cody H. is ready to explode with his talent, but salary will keep his ability and status in check. Good teams do not develop their players quickly otherwise they can't hold their team together, salary cap won't allow it.

Raymond will achieve a higher level in the next year or two. He will develop quicker if he is traded away to a non contender. For Raymond it would be in his best interests to be traded in the off season.

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raymond does not have the hockey iq to advance much farther. he is one of the least gifted players on the team as far as offensive creativity goes

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When there are players like Bill Sweatt, Jordan Schroeder and Anton Rodin, who are all top-6 prospects earning half of what Raymond is earning.

Much as I like all these players, I watch Chicago Wolves and it will be 2/3 seasons before we get the kind of return we get from Raymond just now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTyguM5_Y78

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Another strong game from Raymond against the Leafs. Showed exactly what he does for us.

Forechecking and back checking, releasing the pressure, carrying the puck calmly, at speed out of our defensive zone, on hand for the breakaway pass at all times, laid some terrific passes off to team mates and was unlucky with a couple of scintillating shots.

No coincidence then that we played well....................AV always knows best. :)

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Another strong game from Raymond against the Leafs. Showed exactly what he does for us.

Forechecking and back checking, releasing the pressure, carrying the puck calmly, at speed out of our defensive zone, on hand for the breakaway pass at all times, laid some terrific passes off to team mates and was unlucky with a couple of scintillating shots.

No coincidence then that we played well....................AV always knows best. :)

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Tony G is all over him on 1040 right now.

He basically said when we have a cream puff weekend playing TO and Edm and all 4 lines are rolling for 11 goals in 2 games, to have Raymond not even register a shot in the 2 games is pretty amusing.

I know I started the thread but I do feel bad about the amount of heat he is now getting from the media.

While this thread was started be me, scrutinizing Raymond's play has helped me realize that he is a solid bottom 6 guy and is good for a checking line as long as he has other line mates that are bigger and more physical to play with him.

I think his offence is clearly lacking and while he is on 2nd line right now, if we are able to acquire a solid 2nd liner, it would be nice to have Raymond/Hansen rotate on the 3rd line to play with Higgins and Hodgson with the other one moving down to 4th to play with Lapierre and Maholtra

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