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CanucksJay

Raymond? Do We Really Want Him?

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Did you miss this part...

"without the benefit of offseason training, training camp, preseason and the first 25 games of the season while coming back from a serious injury."

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This comment doesn't really fly because Raymond played his best in his first 9 games when he scored 7 pts. That means in his past 18 games, he's scored 6 pts (tying Hansen) while Hodgson scored 12.

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I'm busy to do one on a weeknight against the Preds or Wild but I wouldn't mind doing one on Sat against the Flames.This is actually an advantage to the Raymond fans because he seems to play his best against Calgary (home town Cochrane). This way I have Sunday to review (PVR) and post.

Bodee are you up for the Sat game?

I think we need a bigger sample size but we can start with this. What is a decent sample size?

We all know one game does not make or break a player and my thoughts are based on watching many seasons of Raymond.

P.S.

I know what Raymond does well and I've commented on it so I actually don't think its as biased as many people think.

If I was to grade Mason Raymond on his skill set, I would grade

Speed: A

Balance: C+

Defensive Awareness:B+ (Good on the back checks, decent when puck is already in the defensive zone)

Shot: C+

Pass:C

Strength: C-

Vision: C

Please feel free to add categories or give your own grades.

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Let's pick the up coming game against the Preds.

Is there even one of you Raymond haters prepared to put their money where their judgement is and do a scouting report on Mason Raymond?

You must declare your intention to carry it out now, not come up with one after the game.

I mean it's a gift to you guys...........right? He is just so bad it must be the easiest report in history.

He's greedy.

He falls down a half the time he's on the ice.

He won't go to the net or the dirty areas.

He has no chemistry with his line mates.

This should be an easy win then for you guys.

Also please be professional and note.

His forecheck / backcheck.

His line mates.

His transition play.

Or you can just chicken out and continue to post biased garbage on here and expect us to take notice.

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This comment doesn't really fly because Raymond played his best in his first 9 games when he scored 7 pts. That means in his past 18 games, he's scored 6 pts (tying Hansen) while Hodgson scored 12.

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I'm game. I've got gamecentre as well and will use shift charts to outline everything that both Raymond and Booth do on each shift. First shift chart:

http://www.nhl.com/s...12/TV020793.HTM

Btw, comparing Raymond's skillset to Booth's is apples & oranges, imo. Raymond has no powerforward in his game whereas Booth does (Booth's offensive game is more like Kesler's than Raymond's) but if these are the two players you'd like to compare then can we define what we're grading?

So far we have:

Speed is a clear Raymond win. There is no need to argue that even though Booth is very fast in his own right.

Power (the ability to cut to the inside even with a body pushing on you) is a clear Booth win. There is no need to argue that.

1. How about puck protection (especially on cycles)?

2. How about defensive positioning in the defensive zone away from the puck?

3. How about positioning in the offensive zone when without the puck?

4. Are shots being taken from the perimetre without teammates screening or in position for a rebound (if in need of a line change this is actually a good decision)?

5. Are they taking the puck into the slot, to the net and trying to make something happen or peeling off to the boards to cycle in perpetuity?

6. Are they winning puck battles or tying the puck up long enough for a teammate to jump in and help out?

7. Overall play in the defensive zone and helping with breakouts.

8. Accuracy of passing and ability to take a pass.

9. Takeaways, giveaways, hits & blocked shots.

10. Scoring chances created, scoring chances averted.

Can we agree on these ten tangible areas of the game that impact the outcome in the win-loss column? Care to add any other areas I'm sure to have overlooked?

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That sounds fine by me.

So to recap.

Using these 10 principle "game affecters" we are going to do a scouting assessment of both Booth and Raymond.

ToI might be a constricting or enhancing factor depending on how you look at it.

Also line mates is also difficult, but we can maybe agree an adjustment due to these factors after the game.

However as you say they are NOT the same style of player so let us just judge them on their own merits and not in opposition.

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I'm game. I've got gamecentre as well and will use shift charts to outline everything that both Raymond and Booth do on each shift. First shift chart:

http://www.nhl.com/s...12/TV020793.HTM

Btw, comparing Raymond's skillset to Booth's is apples & oranges, imo. Raymond has no powerforward in his game whereas Booth does (Booth's offensive game is more like Kesler's than Raymond's) but if these are the two players you'd like to compare then can we define what we're grading?

So far we have:

Speed is a clear Raymond win. There is no need to argue that even though Booth is very fast in his own right.

Power (the ability to cut to the inside even with a body pushing on you) is a clear Booth win. There is no need to argue that.

1. How about puck protection (especially on cycles)?

2. How about defensive positioning in the defensive zone away from the puck?

3. How about positioning in the offensive zone when without the puck?

4. Are shots being taken from the perimetre without teammates screening or in position for a rebound (if in need of a line change this is actually a good decision)?

5. Are they taking the puck into the slot, to the net and trying to make something happen or peeling off to the boards to cycle in perpetuity?

6. Are they winning puck battles or tying the puck up long enough for a teammate to jump in and help out?

7. Overall play in the defensive zone and helping with breakouts.

8. Accuracy of passing and ability to take a pass.

9. Takeaways, giveaways, hits & blocked shots.

10. Scoring chances created, scoring chances averted.

Can we agree on these ten tangible areas of the game that impact the outcome in the win-loss column? Care to add any other areas I'm sure to have overlooked?

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I'm doing it for every shift and man is it tedious. I'm only through two periods of the Nashville game and I don't have much time today to finish it. So far it looks to me like Raymond struggled vs Nashville and Booth was simply solid in that same game but at 1st glance of last night's game vs the Wild I'd say that the reverse was true (minus the post Booth hit). I'll try and finish the Preds game now...

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I'm doing it for every shift and man is it tedious. I'm only through two periods of the Nashville game and I don't have much time today to finish it. So far it looks to me like Raymond struggled vs Nashville and Booth was simply solid in that same game but at 1st glance of last night's game vs the Wild I'd say that the reverse was true (minus the post Booth hit). I'll try and finish the Preds game now...

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Yes you have it about right there. Not one of Raymond's better games. I also noted he had pretty low minutes. Booth also had one of his quietest games with about one decent rush to the net, a decent pass off to Kes I think and a decent back check. Slim pickings all round. Was impressed by Bitz again.

I thought we were starting with Calgary?

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Sorry, a bit of a mix up here.

CanucksJay said he couldn't start till the Calgary game so I agreed we would start there. That keeps us all on the same page and makes our combined assessments more interesting.

In a way this will be better because Booth would need a few games to get up to speed.

To clarify, I'm NOT out to paint ANY of our players in a negative light. (I support every player wearing the jersey) The whole point in doing this exercise is firstly, I have never done something like this before and it should be fun and secondly I think the more of us who actually watch a players overall contribution to the team (especially one who seems to be a whipping boy and nauseatingly put top of the list for every trade) the better.

You have quite succinctly highlighted the multi facets to a players game and quite honestly I think more than half of them escape a great many members on here.

My apologies again. (at least you have the benefit of a dry run :rolleyes: )

Let scouting begin.

By the way this game is on at 2:00 am in Scotland and if I stay up to watch it at that time (I sometimes do) not only will I be wasted but I will not have the energy to do justice to my effort.

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Ah, okay. In that case I'll just post what I came away with in the first 40 minutes vs Nashville. Warning: it's a play-by-play breakdown (I'm just going to do +1/-1 for whatever & note the time from now on).

  1. Raymond pops over the boards @ 19:17 in an on the fly change with Hamhuis & Bieksa in clear possession of the puck. Raymond makes a solid pass to Bieksa to break the trap and get the pucking moving up ice @ 19:10. Raymond is on the ice with Henrik & Bitz versus the Preds #2 pairing of Roman Josi & Kevin Klein, Wilson-Legwand-Hornqvist. @ 18:57 the Canucks have a problem. Raymond is the F1 here on the backcheck and instead of checking for the trailer on the play (Legwand) he decides to try and pokecheck Edler’s man. Fortunately Colin Wilson didn’t thread the needle to the wide open backdoor play and Raymond is now in good position to pressure the puck carrier while Edler picks up the lurking Legwand. Bitz collapses in the zone and pokechecks the puck to Salo. The play ends up in a glorious scoring chance for Hornqvist but everyone is equally responsible here. Raymond gets a stick on a scoring chance by Roman Josi and a goalmouth scramble ensues. End of a 42 second shift. One scoring chance averted by Raymond (but a wide open backdoor goal could’ve been had by Legwand) and majority of the shift spent in the Dzone.

  1. Raymond gets an offensive zone start with Henrik, Bitz, Bieksa & Hamhuis versus Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat & Suter-Weber @ 16:45. Faceoff win and Raymond briefly sets a cheeky high screen (top of faceoff circle) and heads to the net when he sees the puck is loose for a second (this is one of my beefs with him since he should be heading that way right away rather than hesitating but in this case it would not have mattered). +1 scoring chance? Maybe. Faceoff. Canucks stay with the same 5 man unit but the Preds make a full change & Josi-Klein, Wilson-Smithson-Legwand come out and win the draw, with Raymond unable to pin Klein against the boards in the corner and the puck moves the other way. This is when Hank goes down. The Nucks are now essentially facing a 5on4 but the play gets whistled dead for an offsides. End of shift.

  1. Raymond pops out with 9 seconds left on the Hodgson penalty. He’s out with Rome-Ballard, Hodsgon & Booth. Booth makes a very fine outlet pass from the RW boards at the hashmarks to Raymond on LW at the blueline. +1 on pass reception? (A bit of a stretch as the pass was on the tape and it wasn’t overly hard) Raymond drops to Hodgson and manages to stay onside without bumping into Hodgson. Raymond gathers the loose puck from Hodgson’s chip pass/shot to Rinne’s skates. He has his head up looking for a passing lane @ 12:42 but there are Nashville sticks & bodies in those lanes. Raymond decides to force it anyway & saucers a bad pass onto Hamhuis’ backhand that exits the zone. Should’ve dropped the puck to Booth and started a cycle instead. -1 bad pass, -1 decision making. Shift change instead.

  1. Raymond comes out on an offensive zone faceoff @ 11:44 and once again fails to tie up the RD’s (Weber) stick on a lost faceoff and the puck is easily moved to Suter & out of the zone. Raymond took the outside route to the puck rather than risk getting hit by Weber and it cost him & his linemates the shot at a 50/50 puck battle. He’s out with Hamhuis-Bieksa, Bitz & now Henrik (Kesler changed once the faceoff was lost) versus Wilson-Legwand-Hornqvist. Raymond as F2 (soon to be F1) pressures Weber but Weber easily clears the puck to Raymond’s vacated LW boards. Henrik works hard to regain possession to Hamhuis. Bitz tips it in and now both Bitz & Raymond look to gain possession. Raymond gets there 1st, ahead of Suter, but immediately gets rubbed out by Suter and falls down. -1, Puck battle lost. Not to worry, Henrik is here once again taking on two Preds and Hamhuis pinches down to help out. Raymond makes himself available for the chip pass and the puck comes to him. Sensing he’s about to get pinned he rushes his decision and just pushes the puck back into the pinned Hamhuis rather than moving the cycle down behind the net. -1 decision making (Hamhuis, the defenceman, is pinned and the high percentage play is to take the puck deeper). Puck cleared. Line change. -2 turnovers, -2 puck battles lost, -1 decision making.

  1. Delayed penalty @ 9:10, Raymond over the boards. Kesler gives Raymond a bad breakout pass out of his reach.

  1. 6:13, Raymond-Henrik-Bitz, Ballard-Rome out after the GTG by CW versus Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat, Josi-Klein. Faceoff into Raymond’s feet, puck battle lost, puck goes deep. Luongo rings it around to Raymond who tries to pin the puck but loses the battle with Erat. -2 for 50/50 puck battles. Luongo makes a phenomenal glove save on a hard, semi-screened wrister from the point. End of tough shift. -2 puck battles.

  1. 5:48, Raymond comes out after the 4th line does the heavy lifting post glove save. Yip-Spalling-Tootoo, & Bouillion-Ellis. Raymond makes eye contact with Tootoo @ 5:42 and looks to be in perfect defensive position but then he makes a very bad defensive zone decision @ 5:38 by collapsing all the way into the crease area. Henrik Sedin is playing the role of F1 and helping out the defencemen Edler & Hamhuis.so we already had 3 guys in great position down low. Instead, now Tootoo is completely unchecked in the middle of the slot and Ellis was also wide open at the top of the faceoff circle. Fortunately Salo impedes Yip enough to dislodge the puck for Edler to swoop in. Raymond turns on the jets to stretch out the Preds D and looks for the breakaway pass. Some neutral zone play ensues, end shift, Booth comes out. -1 decision making in Dzone

  1. 3:29, PK shift with Lapierre, Edler & Salo versus Ellis-Josi, Wilson-Legwand-Smith. Lapierre is the show here. Raymond again bumping into his own defenceman (Ballard) in the crease @ 3:02. Lapierre fails to clear on a golf swing, Josi cross ice to a wide open Ellis but he bumbles the puck and Raymond tries to lob a breakaway for Lapierre. +1 pass (for the creativity despite the execution) -1 defensive zone coverage (bumping into Ballard in the crease is just too much to overlook on the PK). Line change.

  1. Raymond comes out @ 19:30 vs Suter-Weber, Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat and promptly makes a poor read. The puck gets stopped at the Canucks blueline and Raymond thinks the puck is going to Nashivlle’s end but Suter jumps it and Raymond doesn’t step into Suter who is flying into the middle. Suter rings it off the crossbar and this is the 3rd time Raymond has bungled his assignment in this game. He tried a weak stick check on the wrong side instead of skating in front and laying the body into Suter before he could get the shot off. -1 defensive coverage. The puck gets turned over and Raymond does get back in time to pick up the trailer @ 19:10. He flushes out a Predator Dman from behind the net and ties up another Pred along the boards in the Canucks end to help win a 50/50 puck battle. +1 puck battle, +1 takeaway.

  1. Raymond only gets a brief respite before coming out for a double shift due to Weise’s injury. He makes himself a solid breakout option for an over aggressive 2-1-2 Predator forecheck (Craig Smith is in too tight here) and Raymond skates it through the neutral zone as you can hear AV yelling “Deep!” Mason “button hooks” at the top of the RW faceoff circle and fires a hard, low wrister at the net which is the right decision with bodies in front. He gives a rather weak effort at keeping the puck in after that but I’ll chalk it up to fatigue. I’m not sure I can call that a +1 scoring chance though… End of shift. (Meaningless blueline turnover at the end ignored)

  1. Raymond comes out at 15:52 as the 4th man in a 3-on-3 rush (Hamhuis-Bieksa, Burrows vs Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat) into Vancouver’s end. He has no stick on the ice blocking the cross ice passing lane from Fisher to Erat (Hamhuis does but both player’s sticks ought to be deterring this pass not just Hammer’s). That’s his first mistake. -1 defensive zone play without the puck. Raymond’s second mistake is blindly throwing the loose puck he nicely to his vacated left wing position (remember, Burrows is back as the F1 and his job is the slot on this sequence) instead of chopping it out over the RW blueline where Henrik Sedin will easily grab it. -1 for giveaway, -1 defensive zone play with the puck. Kevin Klein (Raymond’s check) grabs Raymond’s giveaway, Preds score. -1 socring chance averted. Raymond-Henrik-Bitz stay out after the goal and Raymond promptly misses a chance to go directly to the area where Booth has been anchored all game, the dirty area in front of Rinne, and because of it Bitz’s wrister gets on net with no Raymond in the low slot for a deflection. Instead we see Raymond camped out in the corner behind the goal line where he can’t even get to a potential rebound in time before Rinne covers up. -1 for Dzone play, -1 for Dzone giveaway leading to a goal, -1 scoring chance averted & -1 for not going to the dirty area.

  1. Next shift @ 14:01, Raymond with the decent forecheck forcing a poor pass resulting in a change of possession. +1. Raymond picking up the loose puck from Bitz but then screwing up the cycle by giving the puck away instead of leaving the puck with Henrik and going to the net. -1 giveaway, -1 for not going to the dirty area on a give-and-go even though you’re on a line w/ the league’s best passer. Good backcheck though (trying to atone for his mistake). It’s just too bad that instead of playing in the Ozone the team now has to grind it out in its’ own end. -1 puck protection, -1 puck possession (cancelled out by an earlier forecheck). So -1 for not going to the dirty area, -1 for the giveaway & -1 for overall puck protection. End of bad shift.

  1. Raymond doesn’t get out for another six minutes after that shift and even as a mainstay on the PK during his time here in Vancouver, he doesn’t get a sniff on the Rome delay of game PK @ 11:14. At any rate, 6:49… Bitz is F1 but puck moves out and Craig Smith laterally skates around both Raymond and Henrik in the NZ, dumps it in. Rome sends a nice outlet to Bitz who dumps it where he can retrieve it. With Raymond b-lining to the corner, Henrik Sedin has to change course and head to the net (ummm, is that what we really want? Henrik is much better in the corners than MayRay). -1 for going to the dirty area. Puck battle ensues, Henrik jumps in to take over. Raymond almost knocks over Henrik. This ought to be Mason’s cue to head to the net and get ready for the puck. He stays behind the goal line. -1 for going to the dirty areas. Puck on its’ way out gets chipped back in and Raymond gets a grade A scoring chance, Glove save Rinne. +1 scoring chance (for being in good position not for creating it). End shift.

  1. 2:49 Raymond comes out w/ Bitz & Sedin who are involved in a cycle and instead of screening the goalie for a point shot, goes below the goalline by the net. -1 for going to the dirty areas (it’s not a long jaunt from the front of the net to the goal line). Bitz puts the puck low and Raymond ties up his man for a 50/50 battle. +1 forecheck but the Canucks now have three fwds battling and only need two (this is not a powerpaly situation). Henrik gives Raymond a cheeky pass but there’s obviously no room in the middle of Nashville’s triangular defence here. Turnover that is 50/50 Raymond/Sedin fault. Puck goes other way. Raymond clears a loose puck by volleying it high in the air & changes. End shift.

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That was epic. I don't think I could put in every detail like that. But will give it a go. It will probably take me a week.

You should post it to AV.

Raymond seems to have had a poorish game going by that.

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That was epic. I don't think I could put in every detail like that. But will give it a go. It will probably take me a week.

You should post it to AV.

Raymond seems to have had a poorish game going by that.

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