CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't understand why AV has been using him in the shootout for the last 3 years, the guy is pretty bad at it for a "skill" player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Brahma Bull Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think his career percentage on shoot out is pretty decent. He was scoring the spinorama goals for a bit there but I would prefer Coho as our 3rd shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Something I've already commented on. When Raymond came back the opposition wasn't playing him that hard the first few games. It seemed to me his first three to five games or so players didn't want to be the guy that ended his career. Since taking some hits he's getting the real world NHL treatment and reality has sunk in. It doesn't change the fact that when he came back he would be physically behind everybody on the team. As playing goes on there would naturally be a drop before improvement. I took off the first five games where Raymond appeared to be getting played soft by the other team. I stand by my numbers and took an even amount of games (20) as a sampling. Did you come up with 18 (a rather odd nuimber) because it makes Cody look better? How many of Cody's points came from the PP without Raymond? Hodgson has been getting PP time that Hansen and Raymond haven't. So you can't just look at the point total alone. You also have to consider ice time. Hodgson gets more offensive time while Raymond gets more defensive time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 I prefer coho as our first shooter! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raph Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I think his career percentage on shoot out is pretty decent. He was scoring the spinorama goals for a bit there but I would prefer Coho as our 3rd shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't understand why AV has been using him in the shootout for the last 3 years, the guy is pretty bad at it for a "skill" player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 28.6% career percentage isn't exactly a number that screams "PUT ME IN THERE COACH!". Lapierre is a 3/7 in his career, I would give him the benefit of the doubt until his percentage starts dropping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 Only four players have scored in the SO this season: Burrows 4/7 Edler 2/4 Hodgson 2/6 Raymond 2/7 5 players with 0 including Kesler who is 0/4. Last season Raymond was 2/6. Kesler was 2/8. Nobody had more than 2 SO goals last year. Burrows was 2/2. Burrows is our best SO performer. He's 7/10 since the 09/10 season. Raymond and Kesler are both 5/17 in that time. Kesler was better than Raymond in 09/10 but Raymond has been better since the 10/11 season (or since he's sucked according to many here). I guess Kesler is even worse for a skill guy. Daniel is 1/6 since 10/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raph Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Stats are always good. Where did you find the shoot out percentages? By the way 28.6 on the Canucks would seem like its pretty good lol I was just doing it from my brain. Where does Raymond rank on the tea min terms of shoot out percentage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Chardon Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 We don't need him...he's a boy playing a man's game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I don't know how much I agree with this comment. I don't think guys "ease up" just because a player came back from injury. The game's so fast out there you have to react on instinct. It's not like they are going to slam on the breaks when they see Raymond along the boards and just stick check when they would normally play the body. I was amazed when Raymond came back and was flying down the wing and cutting to the net with the d-man at his hip. I thought he showed a lot of courage doing that at such high speeds despite coming back from injury. I cannot see into Raymond's mind but I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking "hey I can cut to the net now because guys arent going to lay me out into the end boards" Yes I took the 18 games because stats were slightly skewed to favour me. (lol I'll admit it). But in the end, last 18 games is still last 18 games. If anything, this should support your argument more because I'm taking the more recent games into account than the previous ones and that should be when Raymond's conditioning is better. If anything, your dismissal of the 1st 8-10 games to state that guys were easing up on him actually favours my argument because now when he is in game shape and guys are playing him harder, he isnt nearly as effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 While your stats are helpful, I think we all know that skill does not exactly translate to a great shoot out or Danny and Hank would be 1-2 in shootouts so the 2nd half of your post really doesn't add much to the conversation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 You obviously have a different definition of "a few" games from me. And yes I stand by my statement that he was played soft those first few games. Two or three games to be more specific. I took 20 games as it omitted those first five that included the games he was played soft. I chose 20 games prior to going through the score sheets. So there was no preconceived stacking in favor of my argument. But again, including PP points for Cody where Raymond isn't getting PP time is also stacking the deck. Which I accounted for. Over that 20 games period Raymond and Hodgson had the same number of even strength points. And Raymond had a higher number of first assists. In the end the last 20 games are the last 20 games. See, two can play that game. As far as cutting to the net, he takes what he's given. He doesn't have the size to bull through a big defenseman. Which is to say he needs to be a little ahead of him to cut to the net. If he isn't he uses his speed to go around the net or puts on the brakes. He's not a power forward so don't expect him to play like one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 It was quite applicable to the posted I was responding to..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I've been a long time lurker and usually agree with your views. However with Raymond, I see it differently I think we'll find out pretty soon that Coho is a better player than Raymond. I think many on the board already see it that way. If you think they are neck and neck right now, this will be a non issue in 1-2 years. Raymond has already hit his ceiling where as Coho is just getting started. I'm not asking him to bull THROUGH the d-man like a Bertuzzi. I'm asking him to continue to accelerate and go around the outside. I've felt on many occasions that as Raymond is accelerating and the d-man's hips are turning, if Raymond just gave it an extra second to keep his legs going, he would have the d-man on his back hip where he can cut to the net but, it looks like before that happens, Raymond chicken out and decideds to stop accelerating. Raymond doesn't possess the killer edge when his speed is actually a huge advantage on a rush. So watching Raymond closely recently has helped me cement my belief that he will be a career 3rd line winger capable of 40 pts. If we continue to pay him 2.5 throughout his UFA years, I'm ok with that. However I also think its foolish if we have an opportunity to upgrade and get a top 6 forward or a top 4 d-man and don't trade Raymond knowing that he is a 3rd liner capable of 40 pts. Why wouldn't we trade him if we knew we could get better production from someone else? I've asked Rupert many times what he feels is Raymond's prjected output so I'll ask you. In the next 3-5 years, is Raymond going to be a 3rd liner or a 2nd liner on this team and what is his projected point total? Keep in mind I do understand his point total will differ depending on what line he's on and how much ice time he gets (although Coho seems to be doing pretty solid with whichever linemates he has and makes the most of his icetime) As for the 1st assist vs 2nd assist argument, one could say that Coho posses GREAT vision and hockey intelligence and its usually his initial pass that opens up the seams to create a scoring chance for guys like Raymond to pick up the 1st assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 We don't need him...he's a boy playing a man's game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 As a fan of Raymond, and as someone who started this technical/scouting appraisal thing off (I am on my 3rd viewing of the game and struggling to format my evaluation.......have reached end of 1st period) I have to agree with your conclusions and Miller's. He is not aggressive enough in attack for the 2nd line and his best talents are really in defensive forechecking and breakaway attack. (that is present in nearly all his games and was certainly there the other evening) For that reason combined with his ability to chip in with goals, he is an asset to be valued but on our 3rd line. He is an asset, not only because of what I have said above but his speed tends to catch opposition teams out. Because of this it is handy to have his talents on call for the 2nd in an emergency. It should not be forgotten that even a 2nd line needs defence. In summing up I still feel it would be hard to pick up a player of his abilities and an aggressive scoring game for a similar salary but if he was packaged with a pick or another player for a genuine 2nd line threat I don't think I could complain. One last thing, I wonder if the organisation or Mason himself has ever considered increasing his muscle bulk. I think Coho did something similar to good effect and I think another 5/6 lbs of muscle might lift Raymond's game and allow him to compete on better terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raph Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 The Canucks have put a lot of investment into developing Raymond. It makes it hard to bench him or trade him now. Just like it was hard to get rid of Bernier (cuz we gave up 2 picks for him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I've been a long time lurker and usually agree with your views. However with Raymond, I see it differently I think we'll find out pretty soon that Coho is a better player than Raymond. I think many on the board already see it that way. If you think they are neck and neck right now, this will be a non issue in 1-2 years. Raymond has already hit his ceiling where as Coho is just getting started. I'm not asking him to bull THROUGH the d-man like a Bertuzzi. I'm asking him to continue to accelerate and go around the outside. I've felt on many occasions that as Raymond is accelerating and the d-man's hips are turning, if Raymond just gave it an extra second to keep his legs going, he would have the d-man on his back hip where he can cut to the net but, it looks like before that happens, Raymond chicken out and decideds to stop accelerating. Raymond doesn't possess the killer edge when his speed is actually a huge advantage on a rush. So watching Raymond closely recently has helped me cement my belief that he will be a career 3rd line winger capable of 40 pts. If we continue to pay him 2.5 throughout his UFA years, I'm ok with that. However I also think its foolish if we have an opportunity to upgrade and get a top 6 forward or a top 4 d-man and don't trade Raymond knowing that he is a 3rd liner capable of 40 pts. Why wouldn't we trade him if we knew we could get better production from someone else? I've asked Rupert many times what he feels is Raymond's prjected output so I'll ask you. In the next 3-5 years, is Raymond going to be a 3rd liner or a 2nd liner on this team and what is his projected point total? Keep in mind I do understand his point total will differ depending on what line he's on and how much ice time he gets (although Coho seems to be doing pretty solid with whichever linemates he has and makes the most of his icetime) As for the 1st assist vs 2nd assist argument, one could say that Coho posses GREAT vision and hockey intelligence and its usually his initial pass that opens up the seams to create a scoring chance for guys like Raymond to pick up the 1st assist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Chardon Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Honestly sir, a comment like that destroys any credence your posts will EVER have on these boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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