Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo
* * * - - 11 votes

Raymond? Do We Really Want Him?


  • Please log in to reply
663 replies to this topic

#121 CanucksJay

CanucksJay

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,392 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 12

Posted 07 February 2012 - 01:56 PM

Did you miss this part...

"without the benefit of offseason training, training camp, preseason and the first 25 games of the season while coming back from a serious injury."


This comment doesn't really fly because Raymond played his best in his first 9 games when he scored 7 pts. That means in his past 18 games, he's scored 6 pts (tying Hansen) while Hodgson scored 12.

Edited by CanucksJay, 07 February 2012 - 01:57 PM.

  • 0

#122 hackamore

hackamore

    K-Wing Regular

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 34 posts
  • Joined: 28-March 10

Posted 07 February 2012 - 02:17 PM

This comment doesn't really fly because Raymond played his best in his first 9 games when he scored 7 pts. That means in his past 18 games, he's scored 6 pts (tying Hansen) while Hodgson scored 12.


It's called conditioning for one thing, and then there is taking in the emotional/physiological of returning from an injury. I was not surprised to see him [or any player who has missed as much training as him due to a severe injury] drop off. He is now in the part of his rehab where he is dealing the aches and pains of playing every other day and loosing out on time spent in the gym gaining strength that he had when he was not playing games. You don't magically get better after an injury, Kesler just commented the other day that he is just now starting to feel stronger after his off season injury. The problem I see a lot of fans having with Raymond is because of his stronger start they assume he was going to be able to keep it up all season. How long did it take Cody to get his game back after his back injury? Or Edler last year in the playoffs, one game he was a beast, then he would disappear.

Raymond still does a lot of things really well that he does not get enough credit for.
  • 0

#123 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 08 February 2012 - 04:48 PM

I'm busy to do one on a weeknight against the Preds or Wild but I wouldn't mind doing one on Sat against the Flames.This is actually an advantage to the Raymond fans because he seems to play his best against Calgary (home town Cochrane). This way I have Sunday to review (PVR) and post.

Bodee are you up for the Sat game?

I think we need a bigger sample size but we can start with this. What is a decent sample size?

We all know one game does not make or break a player and my thoughts are based on watching many seasons of Raymond.

P.S.

I know what Raymond does well and I've commented on it so I actually don't think its as biased as many people think.

If I was to grade Mason Raymond on his skill set, I would grade

Speed: A
Balance: C+
Defensive Awareness:B+ (Good on the back checks, decent when puck is already in the defensive zone)
Shot: C+
Pass:C
Strength: C-
Vision: C


Please feel free to add categories or give your own grades.


Yes indeed. That is very fair in that you have nominated a game. I have GCL so I can watch the game more than once and rerun aspects of the game if you want to support your findings by time log. I would prefer a percentage instead of alphabet grading.

I am happy for you to nominate as many games as you like as long as they are in advance.

So I take it you will compare your report with your impression of him.

You can post it here.

I WILL BE DOING THE SAME FOR BOOTH IN THE SAME GAMES. On the same qualities as we have listed. (so I will not be doing Raymond, I will be assessing your report.

Add
Forecheck. transition (I know you have speed)
Line mates/ passing to and accepting from.
Time on ice.
You say balance. Is that under pressure/check? Obviously to hear some he spends half his time either on his knees or his backside for virtually no reason.
Also play areas. Does he really not go to the net / dirty areas?

Edited by Bodee, 08 February 2012 - 04:53 PM.

  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#124 Ohnoeszz

Ohnoeszz

    Comets Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 150 posts
  • Joined: 05-January 10

Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:34 PM

What price will Raymond command next season?
  • 0

#125 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:35 PM

Let's pick the up coming game against the Preds.

Is there even one of you Raymond haters prepared to put their money where their judgement is and do a scouting report on Mason Raymond?

You must declare your intention to carry it out now, not come up with one after the game.
I mean it's a gift to you guys...........right? He is just so bad it must be the easiest report in history.

He's greedy.
He falls down a half the time he's on the ice.
He won't go to the net or the dirty areas.
He has no chemistry with his line mates.

This should be an easy win then for you guys.

Also please be professional and note.

His forecheck / backcheck.
His line mates.
His transition play.

Or you can just chicken out and continue to post biased garbage on here and expect us to take notice.

Yes indeed. That is very fair in that you have nominated a game. I have GCL so I can watch the game more than once and rerun aspects of the game if you want to support your findings by time log. I would prefer a percentage instead of alphabet grading.

I am happy for you to nominate as many games as you like as long as they are in advance.

So I take it you will compare your report with your impression of him.

You can post it here.

I WILL BE DOING THE SAME FOR BOOTH IN THE SAME GAMES. On the same qualities as we have listed. (so I will not be doing Raymond, I will be assessing your report.

Add
Forecheck. transition (I know you have speed)
Line mates/ passing to and accepting from.
Time on ice.
You say balance. Is that under pressure/check? Obviously to hear some he spends half his time either on his knees or his backside for virtually no reason.
Also play areas. Does he really not go to the net / dirty areas?




I'm game. I've got gamecentre as well and will use shift charts to outline everything that both Raymond and Booth do on each shift. First shift chart:

http://www.nhl.com/s...12/TV020793.HTM

Btw, comparing Raymond's skillset to Booth's is apples & oranges, imo. Raymond has no powerforward in his game whereas Booth does (Booth's offensive game is more like Kesler's than Raymond's) but if these are the two players you'd like to compare then can we define what we're grading?


So far we have:


He's greedy.
He falls down a half the time he's on the ice.
He won't go to the net or the dirty areas.
He has no chemistry with his line mates.

His forecheck / backcheck.
His line mates.
His transition play.


Speed: A
Balance: C+
Defensive Awareness:B+ (Good on the back checks, decent when puck is already in the defensive zone)
Shot: C+
Pass:C
Strength: C-
Vision: C

Forecheck. transition (I know you have speed)
Line mates/ passing to and accepting from.
Time on ice.
You say balance. Is that under pressure/check? Obviously to hear some he spends half his time either on his knees or his backside for virtually no reason.
Also play areas. Does he really not go to the net / dirty areas?


Speed is a clear Raymond win. There is no need to argue that even though Booth is very fast in his own right.
Power (the ability to cut to the inside even with a body pushing on you) is a clear Booth win. There is no need to argue that.

1. How about puck protection (especially on cycles)?
2. How about defensive positioning in the defensive zone away from the puck?
3. How about positioning in the offensive zone when without the puck?
4. Are shots being taken from the perimetre without teammates screening or in position for a rebound (if in need of a line change this is actually a good decision)?
5. Are they taking the puck into the slot, to the net and trying to make something happen or peeling off to the boards to cycle in perpetuity?
6. Are they winning puck battles or tying the puck up long enough for a teammate to jump in and help out?
7. Overall play in the defensive zone and helping with breakouts.
8. Accuracy of passing and ability to take a pass.
9. Takeaways, giveaways, hits & blocked shots.
10. Scoring chances created, scoring chances averted.

Can we agree on these ten tangible areas of the game that impact the outcome in the win-loss column? Care to add any other areas I'm sure to have overlooked?

Edited by Millerdraft, 08 February 2012 - 11:39 PM.

  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#126 wallstreetamigo

wallstreetamigo

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,382 posts
  • Joined: 01-April 07

Posted 08 February 2012 - 11:51 PM

Miller....great depth to your arguments as usual. And check your PM's for one from me when you get a chance.
  • 0

#127 Baggins

Baggins

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,881 posts
  • Joined: 30-July 03

Posted 09 February 2012 - 01:53 AM

This comment doesn't really fly because Raymond played his best in his first 9 games when he scored 7 pts. That means in his past 18 games, he's scored 6 pts (tying Hansen) while Hodgson scored 12.


Something I've already commented on. When Raymond came back the opposition wasn't playing him that hard the first few games. It seemed to me his first three to five games or so players didn't want to be the guy that ended his career. Since taking some hits he's getting the real world NHL treatment and reality has sunk in. It doesn't change the fact that when he came back he would be physically behind everybody on the team. As playing goes on there would naturally be a drop before improvement. I took off the first five games where Raymond appeared to be getting played soft by the other team. I stand by my numbers and took an even amount of games (20) as a sampling. Did you come up with 18 (a rather odd nuimber) because it makes Cody look better?

How many of Cody's points came from the PP without Raymond? Hodgson has been getting PP time that Hansen and Raymond haven't. So you can't just look at the point total alone. You also have to consider ice time. Hodgson gets more offensive time while Raymond gets more defensive time.
  • 0
Posted Image

#128 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 09 February 2012 - 06:13 AM

I'm game. I've got gamecentre as well and will use shift charts to outline everything that both Raymond and Booth do on each shift. First shift chart:

http://www.nhl.com/s...12/TV020793.HTM

Btw, comparing Raymond's skillset to Booth's is apples & oranges, imo. Raymond has no powerforward in his game whereas Booth does (Booth's offensive game is more like Kesler's than Raymond's) but if these are the two players you'd like to compare then can we define what we're grading?


So far we have:




Speed is a clear Raymond win. There is no need to argue that even though Booth is very fast in his own right.
Power (the ability to cut to the inside even with a body pushing on you) is a clear Booth win. There is no need to argue that.

1. How about puck protection (especially on cycles)?
2. How about defensive positioning in the defensive zone away from the puck?
3. How about positioning in the offensive zone when without the puck?
4. Are shots being taken from the perimetre without teammates screening or in position for a rebound (if in need of a line change this is actually a good decision)?
5. Are they taking the puck into the slot, to the net and trying to make something happen or peeling off to the boards to cycle in perpetuity?
6. Are they winning puck battles or tying the puck up long enough for a teammate to jump in and help out?
7. Overall play in the defensive zone and helping with breakouts.
8. Accuracy of passing and ability to take a pass.
9. Takeaways, giveaways, hits & blocked shots.
10. Scoring chances created, scoring chances averted.

Can we agree on these ten tangible areas of the game that impact the outcome in the win-loss column? Care to add any other areas I'm sure to have overlooked?


That sounds fine by me.
So to recap.
Using these 10 principle "game affecters" we are going to do a scouting assessment of both Booth and Raymond.
ToI might be a constricting or enhancing factor depending on how you look at it.
Also line mates is also difficult, but we can maybe agree an adjustment due to these factors after the game.

However as you say they are NOT the same style of player so let us just judge them on their own merits and not in opposition.
  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#129 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:16 PM

That sounds fine by me.
So to recap.
Using these 10 principle "game affecters" we are going to do a scouting assessment of both Booth and Raymond.
ToI might be a constricting or enhancing factor depending on how you look at it.
Also line mates is also difficult, but we can maybe agree an adjustment due to these factors after the game.

However as you say they are NOT the same style of player so let us just judge them on their own merits and not in opposition.


Yeah, I'll take into consideration their time on ice, where they started their shift, who each player is playing with, as well as who each player is up against, on each shift which ought to affect productivity (ie, 3rd tier defenders are easier to create scoring chances against). I'll make a sentence or two on what I saw on each shift. Off to gamecentre I go... Should I do the Chicago & Detroit games as well?

For the record, I think it's more fair to compare Raymond to Higgins than it is to compare Raymond to Booth. Booth is a better offensive threat whereas Raymond is the better defensive player of the two.
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#130 RK17Forever

RK17Forever

    K-Wing Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 79 posts
  • Joined: 28-April 11

Posted 09 February 2012 - 01:43 PM

[Proposal]

To CDC: 300 pounds of Hot Wings

To Death: CanucksJay
  • 0

#131 CanucksJay

CanucksJay

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,392 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 12

Posted 10 February 2012 - 02:51 PM

I'm game. I've got gamecentre as well and will use shift charts to outline everything that both Raymond and Booth do on each shift. First shift chart:

http://www.nhl.com/s...12/TV020793.HTM

Btw, comparing Raymond's skillset to Booth's is apples & oranges, imo. Raymond has no powerforward in his game whereas Booth does (Booth's offensive game is more like Kesler's than Raymond's) but if these are the two players you'd like to compare then can we define what we're grading?


So far we have:




Speed is a clear Raymond win. There is no need to argue that even though Booth is very fast in his own right.
Power (the ability to cut to the inside even with a body pushing on you) is a clear Booth win. There is no need to argue that.

1. How about puck protection (especially on cycles)?
2. How about defensive positioning in the defensive zone away from the puck?
3. How about positioning in the offensive zone when without the puck?
4. Are shots being taken from the perimetre without teammates screening or in position for a rebound (if in need of a line change this is actually a good decision)?
5. Are they taking the puck into the slot, to the net and trying to make something happen or peeling off to the boards to cycle in perpetuity?
6. Are they winning puck battles or tying the puck up long enough for a teammate to jump in and help out?
7. Overall play in the defensive zone and helping with breakouts.
8. Accuracy of passing and ability to take a pass.
9. Takeaways, giveaways, hits & blocked shots.
10. Scoring chances created, scoring chances averted.

Can we agree on these ten tangible areas of the game that impact the outcome in the win-loss column? Care to add any other areas I'm sure to have overlooked?


I like this.

Are we doing this for EVERY time they are on the ice or when we notice anything?
  • 0

#132 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 10 February 2012 - 03:28 PM

I'm doing it for every shift and man is it tedious. I'm only through two periods of the Nashville game and I don't have much time today to finish it. So far it looks to me like Raymond struggled vs Nashville and Booth was simply solid in that same game but at 1st glance of last night's game vs the Wild I'd say that the reverse was true (minus the post Booth hit). I'll try and finish the Preds game now...
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#133 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 10 February 2012 - 05:36 PM

I'm doing it for every shift and man is it tedious. I'm only through two periods of the Nashville game and I don't have much time today to finish it. So far it looks to me like Raymond struggled vs Nashville and Booth was simply solid in that same game but at 1st glance of last night's game vs the Wild I'd say that the reverse was true (minus the post Booth hit). I'll try and finish the Preds game now...


Yes you have it about right there. Not one of Raymond's better games. I also noted he had pretty low minutes. Booth also had one of his quietest games with about one decent rush to the net, a decent pass off to Kes I think and a decent back check. Slim pickings all round. Was impressed by Bitz again.
I thought we were starting with Calgary?

Edited by Bodee, 10 February 2012 - 05:37 PM.

  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#134 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 10 February 2012 - 11:39 PM

Yes you have it about right there. Not one of Raymond's better games. I also noted he had pretty low minutes. Booth also had one of his quietest games with about one decent rush to the net, a decent pass off to Kes I think and a decent back check. Slim pickings all round. Was impressed by Bitz again.
I thought we were starting with Calgary?


Oh, so we're starting from now? I was looking backwards since Booth came off of IR.
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#135 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:05 AM

Sorry, a bit of a mix up here.

CanucksJay said he couldn't start till the Calgary game so I agreed we would start there. That keeps us all on the same page and makes our combined assessments more interesting.
In a way this will be better because Booth would need a few games to get up to speed.

To clarify, I'm NOT out to paint ANY of our players in a negative light. (I support every player wearing the jersey) The whole point in doing this exercise is firstly, I have never done something like this before and it should be fun and secondly I think the more of us who actually watch a players overall contribution to the team (especially one who seems to be a whipping boy and nauseatingly put top of the list for every trade) the better.
You have quite succinctly highlighted the multi facets to a players game and quite honestly I think more than half of them escape a great many members on here.

My apologies again. (at least you have the benefit of a dry run :rolleyes: )
Let scouting begin.

By the way this game is on at 2:00 am in Scotland and if I stay up to watch it at that time (I sometimes do) not only will I be wasted but I will not have the energy to do justice to my effort.
  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#136 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 11 February 2012 - 10:40 AM

Ah, okay. In that case I'll just post what I came away with in the first 40 minutes vs Nashville. Warning: it's a play-by-play breakdown (I'm just going to do +1/-1 for whatever & note the time from now on).

  • Raymond pops over the boards @ 19:17 in an on the fly change with Hamhuis & Bieksa in clear possession of the puck. Raymond makes a solid pass to Bieksa to break the trap and get the pucking moving up ice @ 19:10. Raymond is on the ice with Henrik & Bitz versus the Preds #2 pairing of Roman Josi & Kevin Klein, Wilson-Legwand-Hornqvist. @ 18:57 the Canucks have a problem. Raymond is the F1 here on the backcheck and instead of checking for the trailer on the play (Legwand) he decides to try and pokecheck Edler’s man. Fortunately Colin Wilson didn’t thread the needle to the wide open backdoor play and Raymond is now in good position to pressure the puck carrier while Edler picks up the lurking Legwand. Bitz collapses in the zone and pokechecks the puck to Salo. The play ends up in a glorious scoring chance for Hornqvist but everyone is equally responsible here. Raymond gets a stick on a scoring chance by Roman Josi and a goalmouth scramble ensues. End of a 42 second shift. One scoring chance averted by Raymond (but a wide open backdoor goal could’ve been had by Legwand) and majority of the shift spent in the Dzone.
  • Raymond gets an offensive zone start with Henrik, Bitz, Bieksa & Hamhuis versus Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat & Suter-Weber @ 16:45. Faceoff win and Raymond briefly sets a cheeky high screen (top of faceoff circle) and heads to the net when he sees the puck is loose for a second (this is one of my beefs with him since he should be heading that way right away rather than hesitating but in this case it would not have mattered). +1 scoring chance? Maybe. Faceoff. Canucks stay with the same 5 man unit but the Preds make a full change & Josi-Klein, Wilson-Smithson-Legwand come out and win the draw, with Raymond unable to pin Klein against the boards in the corner and the puck moves the other way. This is when Hank goes down. The Nucks are now essentially facing a 5on4 but the play gets whistled dead for an offsides. End of shift.
  • Raymond pops out with 9 seconds left on the Hodgson penalty. He’s out with Rome-Ballard, Hodsgon & Booth. Booth makes a very fine outlet pass from the RW boards at the hashmarks to Raymond on LW at the blueline. +1 on pass reception? (A bit of a stretch as the pass was on the tape and it wasn’t overly hard) Raymond drops to Hodgson and manages to stay onside without bumping into Hodgson. Raymond gathers the loose puck from Hodgson’s chip pass/shot to Rinne’s skates. He has his head up looking for a passing lane @ 12:42 but there are Nashville sticks & bodies in those lanes. Raymond decides to force it anyway & saucers a bad pass onto Hamhuis’ backhand that exits the zone. Should’ve dropped the puck to Booth and started a cycle instead. -1 bad pass, -1 decision making. Shift change instead.
  • Raymond comes out on an offensive zone faceoff @ 11:44 and once again fails to tie up the RD’s (Weber) stick on a lost faceoff and the puck is easily moved to Suter & out of the zone. Raymond took the outside route to the puck rather than risk getting hit by Weber and it cost him & his linemates the shot at a 50/50 puck battle. He’s out with Hamhuis-Bieksa, Bitz & now Henrik (Kesler changed once the faceoff was lost) versus Wilson-Legwand-Hornqvist. Raymond as F2 (soon to be F1) pressures Weber but Weber easily clears the puck to Raymond’s vacated LW boards. Henrik works hard to regain possession to Hamhuis. Bitz tips it in and now both Bitz & Raymond look to gain possession. Raymond gets there 1st, ahead of Suter, but immediately gets rubbed out by Suter and falls down. -1, Puck battle lost. Not to worry, Henrik is here once again taking on two Preds and Hamhuis pinches down to help out. Raymond makes himself available for the chip pass and the puck comes to him. Sensing he’s about to get pinned he rushes his decision and just pushes the puck back into the pinned Hamhuis rather than moving the cycle down behind the net. -1 decision making (Hamhuis, the defenceman, is pinned and the high percentage play is to take the puck deeper). Puck cleared. Line change. -2 turnovers, -2 puck battles lost, -1 decision making.
  • Delayed penalty @ 9:10, Raymond over the boards. Kesler gives Raymond a bad breakout pass out of his reach.
  • 6:13, Raymond-Henrik-Bitz, Ballard-Rome out after the GTG by CW versus Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat, Josi-Klein. Faceoff into Raymond’s feet, puck battle lost, puck goes deep. Luongo rings it around to Raymond who tries to pin the puck but loses the battle with Erat. -2 for 50/50 puck battles. Luongo makes a phenomenal glove save on a hard, semi-screened wrister from the point. End of tough shift. -2 puck battles.
  • 5:48, Raymond comes out after the 4th line does the heavy lifting post glove save. Yip-Spalling-Tootoo, & Bouillion-Ellis. Raymond makes eye contact with Tootoo @ 5:42 and looks to be in perfect defensive position but then he makes a very bad defensive zone decision @ 5:38 by collapsing all the way into the crease area. Henrik Sedin is playing the role of F1 and helping out the defencemen Edler & Hamhuis.so we already had 3 guys in great position down low. Instead, now Tootoo is completely unchecked in the middle of the slot and Ellis was also wide open at the top of the faceoff circle. Fortunately Salo impedes Yip enough to dislodge the puck for Edler to swoop in. Raymond turns on the jets to stretch out the Preds D and looks for the breakaway pass. Some neutral zone play ensues, end shift, Booth comes out. -1 decision making in Dzone
  • 3:29, PK shift with Lapierre, Edler & Salo versus Ellis-Josi, Wilson-Legwand-Smith. Lapierre is the show here. Raymond again bumping into his own defenceman (Ballard) in the crease @ 3:02. Lapierre fails to clear on a golf swing, Josi cross ice to a wide open Ellis but he bumbles the puck and Raymond tries to lob a breakaway for Lapierre. +1 pass (for the creativity despite the execution) -1 defensive zone coverage (bumping into Ballard in the crease is just too much to overlook on the PK). Line change.
  • Raymond comes out @ 19:30 vs Suter-Weber, Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat and promptly makes a poor read. The puck gets stopped at the Canucks blueline and Raymond thinks the puck is going to Nashivlle’s end but Suter jumps it and Raymond doesn’t step into Suter who is flying into the middle. Suter rings it off the crossbar and this is the 3rd time Raymond has bungled his assignment in this game. He tried a weak stick check on the wrong side instead of skating in front and laying the body into Suter before he could get the shot off. -1 defensive coverage. The puck gets turned over and Raymond does get back in time to pick up the trailer @ 19:10. He flushes out a Predator Dman from behind the net and ties up another Pred along the boards in the Canucks end to help win a 50/50 puck battle. +1 puck battle, +1 takeaway.
  • Raymond only gets a brief respite before coming out for a double shift due to Weise’s injury. He makes himself a solid breakout option for an over aggressive 2-1-2 Predator forecheck (Craig Smith is in too tight here) and Raymond skates it through the neutral zone as you can hear AV yelling “Deep!” Mason “button hooks” at the top of the RW faceoff circle and fires a hard, low wrister at the net which is the right decision with bodies in front. He gives a rather weak effort at keeping the puck in after that but I’ll chalk it up to fatigue. I’m not sure I can call that a +1 scoring chance though… End of shift. (Meaningless blueline turnover at the end ignored)
  • Raymond comes out at 15:52 as the 4th man in a 3-on-3 rush (Hamhuis-Bieksa, Burrows vs Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat) into Vancouver’s end. He has no stick on the ice blocking the cross ice passing lane from Fisher to Erat (Hamhuis does but both player’s sticks ought to be deterring this pass not just Hammer’s). That’s his first mistake. -1 defensive zone play without the puck. Raymond’s second mistake is blindly throwing the loose puck he nicely to his vacated left wing position (remember, Burrows is back as the F1 and his job is the slot on this sequence) instead of chopping it out over the RW blueline where Henrik Sedin will easily grab it. -1 for giveaway, -1 defensive zone play with the puck. Kevin Klein (Raymond’s check) grabs Raymond’s giveaway, Preds score. -1 socring chance averted. Raymond-Henrik-Bitz stay out after the goal and Raymond promptly misses a chance to go directly to the area where Booth has been anchored all game, the dirty area in front of Rinne, and because of it Bitz’s wrister gets on net with no Raymond in the low slot for a deflection. Instead we see Raymond camped out in the corner behind the goal line where he can’t even get to a potential rebound in time before Rinne covers up. -1 for Dzone play, -1 for Dzone giveaway leading to a goal, -1 scoring chance averted & -1 for not going to the dirty area.
  • Next shift @ 14:01, Raymond with the decent forecheck forcing a poor pass resulting in a change of possession. +1. Raymond picking up the loose puck from Bitz but then screwing up the cycle by giving the puck away instead of leaving the puck with Henrik and going to the net. -1 giveaway, -1 for not going to the dirty area on a give-and-go even though you’re on a line w/ the league’s best passer. Good backcheck though (trying to atone for his mistake). It’s just too bad that instead of playing in the Ozone the team now has to grind it out in its’ own end. -1 puck protection, -1 puck possession (cancelled out by an earlier forecheck). So -1 for not going to the dirty area, -1 for the giveaway & -1 for overall puck protection. End of bad shift.
  • Raymond doesn’t get out for another six minutes after that shift and even as a mainstay on the PK during his time here in Vancouver, he doesn’t get a sniff on the Rome delay of game PK @ 11:14. At any rate, 6:49… Bitz is F1 but puck moves out and Craig Smith laterally skates around both Raymond and Henrik in the NZ, dumps it in. Rome sends a nice outlet to Bitz who dumps it where he can retrieve it. With Raymond b-lining to the corner, Henrik Sedin has to change course and head to the net (ummm, is that what we really want? Henrik is much better in the corners than MayRay). -1 for going to the dirty area. Puck battle ensues, Henrik jumps in to take over. Raymond almost knocks over Henrik. This ought to be Mason’s cue to head to the net and get ready for the puck. He stays behind the goal line. -1 for going to the dirty areas. Puck on its’ way out gets chipped back in and Raymond gets a grade A scoring chance, Glove save Rinne. +1 scoring chance (for being in good position not for creating it). End shift.
  • 2:49 Raymond comes out w/ Bitz & Sedin who are involved in a cycle and instead of screening the goalie for a point shot, goes below the goalline by the net. -1 for going to the dirty areas (it’s not a long jaunt from the front of the net to the goal line). Bitz puts the puck low and Raymond ties up his man for a 50/50 battle. +1 forecheck but the Canucks now have three fwds battling and only need two (this is not a powerpaly situation). Henrik gives Raymond a cheeky pass but there’s obviously no room in the middle of Nashville’s triangular defence here. Turnover that is 50/50 Raymond/Sedin fault. Puck goes other way. Raymond clears a loose puck by volleying it high in the air & changes. End shift.


  • David Booth pops over the boards (on the fly) @ 17:52 and angles the Preds puck carrier, Ryan Ellis, into Salo and an offsides faceoff ensues. Booth is out with Hodgson, Hansen, Edler & Salo against Nick Spalling, Brandon Yip, Jordan Tootoo, Kevin Klein & Roman Josi. At 17:27 the puck comes to Edler & Booth goes right to the net (dirty area) to set the screen. Edler lets the shot go and Booth stays in the dirty area screening the goalie. Hansen/Edler can’t keep it in and Booth becomes F3 on the backcheck since he was in the deepest. Puck comes back into neutral zone and Booth is now the F1. His stick is in good position to stop Josi from the cross ice pass which forces Josi to force it up the boards and turn it over to Bieksa. Shift change. One “forced turnover” (two if you include the offsides & the faceoff win) and a strong net presence in the offensive zone. The majority of the shift spent in the neutral zone.
  • Booth, on the fly – puck in D-zone, skates into the slot to pick off any passes/loose pucks as the F2. He makes himself a LW outlet Aaron Rome who butchers the 1st pass into Booth’s skate area. Booth does well to gather Rome’s grenade and recognizes the desired line change so he skates the puck through the neutral zone (something Raymond is also known to do) and Ryan Ellis & Ryan Suter (Yip, Halishuk/Tootoo & Spalling the fwds). He makes a very solid “no look” drop pass to Hansen who rifles it wide. +1 pass reception, +1 pass given, +1 scoring chance created. Puck goes the other way and Booth makes a wise decision to reverse the puck behind the net to maintain possession (much like Raymond’s pass to Bieksa on his 1st shift). Hodgson fumbles the breakout and a scramble ensues @ 15:08. Booth is in perfect defensive position in the slot clogging the passing lane to the point. Penalty to Hodgson.
  • Booth comes out with Hodgson & Raymond right after the expired penalty. Booth makes a very solid outlet to Raymond under heavy two man pressure. +1 pass, +1 decision making (pinning the puck is the non-offensive players’ thinking here instead of transition offence). Booth is F3 for the moment but is making a B-line to the net taking Spalling with him. He stops, taps Josi’s stick buying Raymond some extra space and gets in position to continue a cycle. Raymond botches the play by rushing a low percentage cross ice pass to the point (Nashville had good sticks in this case) & kills the developing scoring chance.
  • 10:58, neutral zone faceoff. Booth out with Hodgson, Hansen, Ballard-Rome versus Josi-Boillion, Yip-Spalling-Tootoo. Booth blocks off Tootoo while Hodgson gathers puck. Rome dumps it in, Booth F1 on the forecheck. Rinne has the puck, Booth seals the boards, and forces a reverse pass. Hodgson there in time but fails to cut off the puck but Ballard is there to grab the puck (Booth now screening Rinne) and chooses to dump it back into the corner. Booth ties up Bouillion and Ellis. +1 forecheck. Hansen gves the puck away and the pucks begins to move its’ way out but Booth keeps it in and creates another chance at setting up a cycle. +1 puck possession. Hodgson falls, negating the forecheck. Puck gets cleared, Booth changes, Raymond comes on.
  • 8:27, powerplay. Booth-Kesler-Burrows & Edler-Hamhuis. Booth heads to the net, Edler shoots, rebound to the corner. Hamhuis collects it, Burrows sets up behind the net, Booth slides into open area in the slot availing himself for a pass. Puck to Burrows and Booth immediately heads to the crease and forces Weber into the blue paint. Kesler scores. +1 going to the dirty areas.
  • 5:12, Booth flies in on the forecheck as F2 and forces a dangerous pass by Klein who has Hansen in the way. Josi to Wilson on the breakout, Booth cuts him off and forces a chip pass that Hamhuis eventually grabs behind the net. +1 forcing change of puck possession. Booth makes himself a great outlet for Hamhuis as Dan gets tripped up by Legwand. Booth sends a cheeky cross ice saucer pass to Hodgson just over the blueline. +1 passing. (Wilson-Legwand-Hornqvist, Josi-Klein) Hodgson centres it to nobody and it comes to Hornqvist. Booth cuts him off, stick on stick and then pushes him to the ice. Clean, solid textbook check all the way around. Gets a phantom tripping penalty which cues this Terry Crisp response: “Ummmm, okay? We’ll take it!” +1 forecheck, +1 takeaway & the earlier + takeaway via Wilson’s forced chip pass.
  • Booth out of the box @ 2:41. Two-on-one with Kesler against Suter at 2:35. Booth not messing around looking for the pass, heads straight to the far post looking for a rebound. Kesler toe drags and shoots in tight, Booth stays in front of the net screening Rinne and Kesler gets a 2nd chance shot on net. Puck goes the other way with Kostitsyn-Fisher-Erat vs Hamhuis-Bieksa. Kesler is F1, Burrows F2 & Booth had changed so Daniel could get out with his linemates post PK.
  • Booth comes out after the 3-1 goal to carry the 2g lead into the intermission @1:16 with Lapierre, Hansen & Hamhuis-Bieksa vs Suter-Weber, Wilson-Legwand-Hornqvist. Lapierre tips it in deep, Hansen is F1 and takes Suter out of the play. Lapierre picks up the loose puck and Booth heads straight to the net. +1 going to the dirty areas. Puck comes lose in the corner, puck race between Weber & Booth with Weber already closer to the puck. Weber gets there 1st but Booth uses his long reach to force the aerial clearing attempt that gets cut off by Hamhuis. Booth finishes the bodycheck but Weber sidesteps it. +1 forecheck. Hamhuis loses puck to Fisher, puck cleared, Booth becomes F1 and almost strips Suter who passes to a covered Wilson. Hansen overskates the play and Booth becomes the RWer in the D-zone. Booth collapses to the high slot to cut off cross ice passes to the point but manages to stop before hitting anywhere near the bluepaint. Booth reads the turnover and beaks up ice but fumbles the bouncing puck. +1 defensive positioning, -1 pass reception? (I’m torn on that one)
  • Booth gets out for his first shift @ 17:47 w/ Malhotra/Lapierre/ vs Tootoo–Smithson-Smith, Bouillion-Ellis and almost scores by getting into the scoring area once again. It is becoming very apparent that he lives in between the faceoff circles as he almost buries a botched deke by Malhotra 17:42. +1 scoring chance created, +1 going to the dirty areas. Screening the goalie for a point shot by Edler which would’ve gotten another +1 scoring chance but a Pred got in the way and blocked the shot. +1 going to the dirty areas. Booth almost gets burned by Suter on a backdoor play but Yip doesn’t centre it @ 17:12. -1 defensive zone coverage. Booth realizes this and immediately tracks Suter after that. +1 defensive zone coverage. Edler rings the puck softly around the boards and Booth loses the puck to Spalling but quickly makes up for the gaffe by retrieving the puck and getting it up to Hodgson on top of laying out Yip with a nice body check. -1 for losing the puck, +1 for getting it back and out to safety. Line change after Kesler tips a Salo clear into the Preds’ zone. So a couple of Dzone plays that cancel each other out, a +1 scoring chance created and a +2 for going to the dirty areas.
  • Not much going on in this 20 second shift 15:25 but Booth does set a double screen with Hansen. +1 going to the dirty area.
  • Booth comes out with Lapierre & Malhotra, Hamhuis-Bieksa, vs Yip-Spalling-Tootoo, Bouillion-Ellis, after the Nashville goal @ 14:44. Nothing of note on this shift. Neutral zone play, perimeter Dzone coverage and everyone in proper position. Puck cleared, line change.
  • 12:55, Dzone faceoff. Booth out with Malhotra, Hodgson, Edler-Salo vs Halischuk-Smith-Smithson, Bouillion-Ellis. Won faceoff, Hodgson carries thru Nzone, Booth heads straight to the net. Hodgson shoots, out of play. Ozone faceoff, no changes. CoHo loses draw, Hansen is F1, CH is F2. Puck comes around and now Booth is F1, Hansen F2 & CH is supposed to be 3rd man high. Booth closes on Bouillion, stick on puck and finishes the body check creating a 50/50 battle for a pinching Salo. +1 forecheck. Unfortunately Salo loses the puck battle. The puck eventually heads into Vancouver end and Booth becomes F1 so he collapses to the net and gets a stick on a dangerous shot by Halischuk. +1 scoring chance averted. Booth gathers the puck and skates around the net thinking he’s alone, gets his pocket picked by Smith. -1 giveaway, -1 scoring chance averted? (I guess so, Luongo has let a few behind the goal line goals vs Nahville). Puck comes out of the zone to Booth and he moves in on a 2-on-1 with Hodgson. He shoots from the faceoff dot but his stick breaks after the two sticks he made earlier in the shift. +1 scoring chance anyway?
  • 7:32, Booth out with CoHo & Hansen, Hamhuis-Bieksa vs Tootoo-Spalling-Smithson, Bouillion-Suter. Puck goes deep on Booth’s side and he ties Bouillion up long enough for CH to come in. +1 forecheck. Booth heads to the net, sets screen. +1 going to the dirty area. Hansen lose PB w/ Suter, puck cleared to NZ. Rome threads a pass to Booth who takes it clean and immediately protects the puck against Bouillion. Suter steps up and tips the puck away negating a semi 2on1 chance. Booth heads to the net. +1 going to the dirty area. Hodgson loses the PB, puck cleared. End of shift.
  • 4:33 Booth gets a stick on a Klein half slapper from the faceoff dot. +1 scoring chance averted. He’s out with Hamhuis-Bieksa, Hansen & Lapierre against Wilson-Legwand-Hornqvist (soon to be Halischuk-Smith-Smithson), Josi-Klein. Booth causes Klein to turn it over @ 3:57 on a good flush out. +1 forecheck. Aids Hodgson on the cycle and protects the puck. He recognizes that we already have two guys on the cycle, Hansen & Hodgson, so he heads to the net. +1 going to the dirty area. The cycle gets broken up, Booth is F3 on the backcheck (Rome-Ballard now out). Scrambly puck movement by Ballard causes some chaos. Luongo halts play. End shift.


Well, the forum butchered my 1-14 numbered shifts... Not sure why. At any rate, Booth was a net front presence on nearly every shift and Raymond went there once which just further cements the difference in playing styles. Higgins vs Raymond would be much more interesting because both of their games are so similar (defensive acumen, forecheck, speed, PK).
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#137 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:26 PM

That was epic. I don't think I could put in every detail like that. But will give it a go. It will probably take me a week.

You should post it to AV.

Raymond seems to have had a poorish game going by that.
  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#138 The Bookie

The Bookie

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,746 posts
  • Joined: 10-May 10

Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:56 PM

oh wow, this is amazing. big thanks to miller and bodee, really cool that you guys are putting so much effort into this!
  • 0

#139 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:59 PM

That was epic. I don't think I could put in every detail like that. But will give it a go. It will probably take me a week.

You should post it to AV.

Raymond seems to have had a poorish game going by that.


Yeah, it was annoying to do to say the least and I'm just going to put simple +1/-1 for any of those ten areas I see on any given shift from here on out. Raymond had a rough game but Nashville is a tough, physical opponent and it was only one game. I thought he played very, very well vs Detroit (not sure if the evidence adds up though).
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#140 DeNiro

DeNiro

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,653 posts
  • Joined: 22-April 08

Posted 11 February 2012 - 02:59 PM

Raymond wil have a multi-goal game tonight, quote me on it.
  • 0

Posted Image


"Dream until the dream come true"


#141 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 11 February 2012 - 03:00 PM

oh wow, this is amazing. big thanks to miller and bodee, really cool that you guys are putting so much effort into this!


I'm not gonna go into that much detail again. It was a major pain in the ass.
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#142 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 11 February 2012 - 03:01 PM

Raymond wil have a multi-goal game tonight, quote me on it.


He always shines in Calgary.
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#143 Pride

Pride

    Comets Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 205 posts
  • Joined: 06-December 11

Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:26 PM

raymond will be held scoreless
  • 0

#144 Scoobydooby

Scoobydooby

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,388 posts
  • Joined: 17-January 08

Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:26 PM

He always shines in Calgary.


correct me if im wrong but in our last game with the flamers he was mostly invisible.. in the past though he definitely has had success against them. sheesh half of his scoring each season is vs the flames I bet

Edited by Scoobydooby, 11 February 2012 - 04:28 PM.

  • 1

Posted Image


#145 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,508 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 11 February 2012 - 04:50 PM

correct me if im wrong but in our last game with the flamers he was mostly invisible.. in the past though he definitely has had success against them. sheesh half of his scoring each season is vs the flames I bet


8g 8a in 21gp versus Calgary. I think 6g of those 8g have come in Calgary.
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#146 The Bookie

The Bookie

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,746 posts
  • Joined: 10-May 10

Posted 11 February 2012 - 05:07 PM

I'm not gonna go into that much detail again. It was a major pain in the ass.


no doubt, but I'm more just generally appreciative that you guys are taking the time to objectively assess players rather than just rehash the same old cliche complaints so many others like to toss around cdc.
  • 0

#147 We Broke The Cup

We Broke The Cup

    Comets Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 431 posts
  • Joined: 14-August 11

Posted 11 February 2012 - 06:18 PM

I'm not gonna go into that much detail again. It was a major pain in the ass.


Impressive though, thanks for posting it.
  • 0

#148 George_Costanza

George_Costanza

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,115 posts
  • Joined: 03-March 04

Posted 11 February 2012 - 11:49 PM

Answer to topic:

NO.
  • 0
Posted Image

#149 nuck nit

nuck nit

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,508 posts
  • Joined: 27-June 10

Posted 12 February 2012 - 02:27 AM

Do we really want him?

Yes.

If he brings us a gifted,gritty D man?

No.
  • 0

#150 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 12 February 2012 - 03:58 AM

Raymond wil have a multi-goal game tonight, quote me on it.



Now I know why he didn't score............you jinxed him!
PS I haven't watched the game yet ..............but it sucks when you know the score. (I don't normally look but I was so confident of a win.........a bit like you :wacko:

PPS bring back your avatar/photo, I miss it.

Edited by Bodee, 12 February 2012 - 04:01 AM.

  • 0
Kevin.jpg




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.