Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo
* * * - - 11 votes

Raymond? Do We Really Want Him?


  • Please log in to reply
663 replies to this topic

#181 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,509 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:35 PM

As far as cutting to the net, he takes what he's given. He doesn't have the size to bull through a big defenseman. Which is to say he needs to be a little ahead of him to cut to the net. If he isn't he uses his speed to go around the net or puts on the brakes. He's not a power forward so don't expect him to play like one.


Let me reiterate my view that comparing Raymond to Booth is like comparing an apple to an orange and that comparing Raymond to Higgins is a closer fit but there is one area that Raymond could really stand to take a page out of both Booth's and Higgins' book: heading to the net without the puck and staying there every once in a while.

If the 5'7" 170lbs Brian Gionta make a living out of going to that area surely 6'0" 185lbs Raymond can too? I bet you his 5-on-5 point production would jump a bunch. Heck he doesn't even need to look at Gionta, he could just look at his own teammate in the 6'1" 188lbs Alexandre Burrows.
  • 1

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#182 CanuckianOne

CanuckianOne

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,419 posts
  • Joined: 02-December 11

Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:37 PM

Look. If we trade him, I need a new signature. So for that reason alone. We keep him. Cool?
  • 1

g3HKFnX.png


#183 Spoderman

Spoderman

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,012 posts
  • Joined: 01-July 11

Posted 13 February 2012 - 04:42 PM

I can use capitals too....BLOW ME.


Mature..
  • 0
Posted Image

Posted Image

Credit to BananaMash for both

STHS GM Anaheim Ducks

#184 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 14 February 2012 - 05:06 AM

I can use capitals too....BLOW ME.


You NEVER disappoint. Hark! I hear your Playstation calling.
  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#185 cc_devil

cc_devil

    Comets Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 813 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 07

Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:04 AM

Raymond will be probally be resigned after this season for around the same price as his last contract.
Agreed with the OP perhaps this off season he can bulk and drive to the net next season to fight his way back to a second line job. Hopefully this summer he can fuly train in the off season and not be recovering from a back injury which set his off season training last year. If that doesn't work out he can always be traded in the future.
  • 1

#186 RUPERTKBD

RUPERTKBD

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: 23-July 04

Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:07 AM

I didn't get to watch last night's game, (except for part of the shootout) but from what I gather seeing highlights, etc., we can call this one an easy win for Booth, right? ;)
  • 0
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#187 CanucksJay

CanucksJay

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,392 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 12

Posted 14 February 2012 - 09:53 AM

I believe Raymond is a capable second line winger. Considering the league average for a second line winger last year was 45 points if Raymond can get 40 on the third line with minimal PP time it would qualify him as a second line winger.


The point is, we dont WANT a league average 2nd liner. We want 2nd liners that could potentially be 1st liners and stars on other teams (Kesler). That's what cup winning teams have. If you are looking at the average of the league, you are also counting the basement teams that have players on the 2nd line that would be fighting for 3rd line spots on our team.


I don't get into predictions. They're pointless. Who here predicted Burrows to score 30 goals? Most here saw him as a waste of a roster spot his first full season. Did anybody here predict Kesler to be a 40 goal scorer? Nope. The majority saw him as a career 20-25 goal scorer. Did anybody foresee the Sedins as 100 point players? Nope. Just a couple of years ago most saw them as second line players at best and if they wanted more than $4m let them walk. Predicting what a player may become is crystal ball territory and I don't have one.


As for predictions, when we are discussing what is best for the team (trade or keep Raymond) you need to think about the overall picture of Mason Raymond's potential and whether he will achieve his potential otherwise you are talking about trading or keeping a player without knowing what kind of production you are potentially giving up.

But I can recognize skills. I saw them in Burrows, Kesler and the Sedins. Hodgson has them too. Just as Raymond has skills. How far they'll take them is anybodys guess. As I said in my post about that 20 game span, Raymond had the same number of even strength points as Hodgson. The big difference in their productihe didn't get offers in the $3.5 to $4.5m range. Last summer 40-45 point UFA's were getting $4 to $4.5m. Consider his speed, defensive play, he can PK and PP and as an added bonus play PP point. As a result he will have that kind of value on the open marketon came from Cody playing 2nd PP unit center. Which is to say Raymond has been just as productive from the 3rd line. Given their histories and ages Hodgson certainly has the better potential. But does it matter who will be the better player when they're not competing for the same spot? I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have no problem with Raymond being traded for an upgrade. What I do have a problem with is his being made out to be less than what he is.


You know what, I don't think we are too far off in our opinions.
We both know the value Raymond brings to the team. Solid 2-way game that chips in on offence every now and then. We both understand if an upgrade can be made, the team should do it. I think the main difference is, you'd be ok with Raymond on the 2nd line where as I feel like if we want to win the cup and we are thinking of him as a 2nd liner, we need a better player than him.
We need a player that is capable of putting up 70 pts while playing with Booth and Kesler (which isn't that far fetched. Similar to B MO with Bert and Nazzy). If Raymond is going 3rd line, I'd be ok if he signs a long term extension at his current cap hit but if initial negotiations look like it might cost a lot more as you say 3.5-4.5m, I think we can do without Raymond and we should trade him while his value is relatively high as his return packaged with a another prospect or pick COULD potentially get us a legitimate top 6 player OR a top 4 d-man

Personally Raymond is the odd man out because his return would be far greater than Hansen while I feel like they both bring a similar game (Hansen more physical, Raymond more scoring touch). Hansen's cap hit is lower and his return would be far less.

Edited by CanucksJay, 14 February 2012 - 09:55 AM.

  • 0

#188 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,509 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:35 AM

I didn't get to watch last night's game, (except for part of the shootout) but from what I gather seeing highlights, etc., we can call this one an easy win for Booth, right? ;)


I was at the game last night but I was also catching up with a cousin that I hadn't seen in awhile so I didn't really pay much attention to the finer parts of the defensive struggle (although I did notice a cheeky little stick check by CoHo on a 3-on-2 rush that allowed his winger a clear lane to shoot the puck).

I'll look it over later today.
  • 0

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#189 JamesTW

JamesTW

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,619 posts
  • Joined: 13-March 10

Posted 14 February 2012 - 12:42 PM

Wasn't it after the clutch post that Burrows became a solid thirty goal scorer and is now far more than just a poop disturber. Maybe CanucksJay is going for the same result with Raymond.
  • 0

#190 RUPERTKBD

RUPERTKBD

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: 23-July 04

Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:16 PM

Wasn't it after the clutch post that Burrows became a solid thirty goal scorer and is now far more than just a poop disturber. Maybe CanucksJay is going for the same result with Raymond.


No need to whisper, stranger things have been suggested on CDC. Although in this case, I'd say that he's being forthright...
  • 0
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#191 RWMc1

RWMc1

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,149 posts
  • Joined: 13-September 08

Posted 14 February 2012 - 02:22 PM

Wasn't it after the clutch post that Burrows became a solid thirty goal scorer and is now far more than just a poop disturber. Maybe CanucksJay is going for the same result with Raymond.

The OP is just re-bleating media crap. On 1040, that idiot Botchford actually claimed that Booth was brought in to replace Raymond. Booth replaced the person he was traded for. Raymond was still on LTIR when the Booth deal went down, and whether Raymond could return and still play at a high level was still in question.

When Bieksa returned mid-season from a serious injury it took him a long while to get back to normal. He said that he felt a step behind in conditioning and reactions. I still think Raymond can step up his game and it would be a mistake to trade him, unless the return is high. I still want him on our team. I also believe that Hansen will be just fine and will step it up in the Playoffs. The kneejerk reaction is to look at right now.
  • 0

Vancouver Canucks Stanley Cup Champions 2014/15 So let it be written, So let it be done!

 

My Cup Runneth. Go get it and bring it here!

 

Cupquester "Who are those horrible little men?"
 


#192 CanucksJay

CanucksJay

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,392 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 12

Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:07 PM

The OP is just re-bleating media crap. On 1040, that idiot Botchford actually claimed that Booth was brought in to replace Raymond. Booth replaced the person he was traded for. Raymond was still on LTIR when the Booth deal went down, and whether Raymond could return and still play at a high level was still in question.

When Bieksa returned mid-season from a serious injury it took him a long while to get back to normal. He said that he felt a step behind in conditioning and reactions. I still think Raymond can step up his game and it would be a mistake to trade him, unless the return is high. I still want him on our team. I also believe that Hansen will be just fine and will step it up in the Playoffs. The kneejerk reaction is to look at right now.


Actually the knee jerk reaction would have been to see Raymond come back from his injury, playing well and saying he's jumped the hump and looks the best he has ever looked.

The smarter thing was to wait it out and see him play back to the level that he has ALWAYS played at and call a spade a spade
  • 1

#193 CanucksJay

CanucksJay

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,392 posts
  • Joined: 19-January 12

Posted 14 February 2012 - 03:08 PM

The OP is just re-bleating media crap. On 1040, that idiot Botchford actually claimed that Booth was brought in to replace Raymond. Booth replaced the person he was traded for. Raymond was still on LTIR when the Booth deal went down, and whether Raymond could return and still play at a high level was still in question.

When Bieksa returned mid-season from a serious injury it took him a long while to get back to normal. He said that he felt a step behind in conditioning and reactions. I still think Raymond can step up his game and it would be a mistake to trade him, unless the return is high. I still want him on our team. I also believe that Hansen will be just fine and will step it up in the Playoffs. The kneejerk reaction is to look at right now.


Actually the knee jerk reaction would have been to see Raymond come back from his injury, playing well and saying he's jumped the hump and looks the best he has ever looked.

The smarter thing was to wait it out and see him play back to the level that he has ALWAYS played at and call a spade a spade
  • 0

#194 Baggins

Baggins

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,020 posts
  • Joined: 30-July 03

Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:38 AM

1 - The point is, we dont WANT a league average 2nd liner. We want 2nd liners that could potentially be 1st liners and stars on other teams (Kesler). That's what cup winning teams have. If you are looking at the average of the league, you are also counting the basement teams that have players on the 2nd line that would be fighting for 3rd line spots on our team.


2 -
As for predictions, when we are discussing what is best for the team (trade or keep Raymond) you need to think about the overall picture of Mason Raymond's potential and whether he will achieve his potential otherwise you are talking about trading or keeping a player without knowing what kind of production you are potentially giving up.


3 - You know what, I don't think we are too far off in our opinions. We both know the value Raymond brings to the team. Solid 2-way game that chips in on offence every now and then. We both understand if an upgrade can be made, the team should do it. I think the main difference is, you'd be ok with Raymond on the 2nd line where as I feel like if we want to win the cup and we are thinking of him as a 2nd liner, we need a better player than him. We need a player that is capable of putting up 70 pts while playing with Booth and Kesler (which isn't that far fetched. Similar to B MO with Bert and Nazzy). If Raymond is going 3rd line, I'd be ok if he signs a long term extension at his current cap hit but if initial negotiations look like it might cost a lot more as you say 3.5-4.5m, I think we can do without Raymond and we should trade him while his value is relatively high as his return packaged with a another prospect or pick COULD potentially get us a legitimate top 6 player OR a top 4 d-man Personally Raymond is the odd man out because his return would be far greater than Hansen while I feel like they both bring a similar game (Hansen more physical, Raymond more scoring touch). Hansen's cap hit is lower and his return would be far less.


1 - The Bruins won the cup last year did they not? Top forward last season:Krejce and Lucic with 62 points each. The number 6 forward Ryder with 41 points. Imagine the panic here with those kind of totals. It would certainly be nice to have 3 Keslers on the second line but it's unrealistic. Most don't have one 70 point player on their second line let alone two or three.


2 - My prediction for Raymond is he's a capable second line player. He could be more but again that's crystal ball territory.


3 - Again you're being unrealistic. The Detroit/Colorado free spending days are long gone. Teams can't afford a second line that would be a first line on most teams like days gone by. Not unless you want to suck for five or six years and load up on top five draft picks so you have those entry level/RFA deals to keep salaries down. What you really need to win the cup is depth and players getting hot at the right time. That's the real secret to winning the cup.

Raymond may sign a one year deal for the money you're hoping for to give himself a year to up his value and end as a UFA. You're dreaming if you think he'll sign long term for what he's currently making.
  • 0
Posted Image

#195 riffraff

riffraff

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,051 posts
  • Joined: 10-April 07

Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:26 AM

hopefully this wall all be put to rest by his playoff performance. assuming he isnt traded.

the debate is well past its date.
  • 0
Posted Image


CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#196 RUPERTKBD

RUPERTKBD

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 18,287 posts
  • Joined: 23-July 04

Posted 15 February 2012 - 07:59 AM

hopefully this wall all be put to rest by his playoff performance. assuming he isnt traded.

the debate is well past its date.

I have to agree with this. I also agree with bot CanucksJay and Baggins.

I think that if Raymond could be moved for the type of player that CJ wants, then Gillis should do it. However, I also agree with Baggins in that I don't see how Raymond is going to bring us said player. And if it means that the trading partner wants us to throw is a first-round pick, or a prospect like Schroeder or Jensen, then my answer would be "no thanks".
  • 0
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#197 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,863 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:32 AM

Raymond isn't an above-average 2nd liner, who can move up to the 1st line. He's an above-average 3rd liner who can move up to the 2nd. Championship teams need those guys too.

I'm definitely in the 'trade Raymond' camp, if doing so can land us a solid power-fwd or shutdown D. Of all our top-9 forwards, I see him as the least essential. But if there isn't the right deal there, I have no problem keeping him in his current role. We got pretty far last year with him on the roster.
  • 0
Posted Image

#198 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:51 AM

Raymond isn't an above-average 2nd liner, who can move up to the 1st line. He's an above-average 3rd liner who can move up to the 2nd. Championship teams need those guys too.

I'm definitely in the 'trade Raymond' camp, if doing so can land us a solid power-fwd or shutdown D. Of all our top-9 forwards, I see him as the least essential. But if there isn't the right deal there, I have no problem keeping him in his current role. We got pretty far last year with him on the roster.

Raymond isn't an above-average 2nd liner, who can move up to the 1st line. He's an above-average 3rd liner who can move up to the 2nd. Championship teams need those guys too.

I'm definitely in the 'trade Raymond' camp, if doing so can land us a solid power-fwd or shutdown D. Of all our top-9 forwards, I see him as the least essential. But if there isn't the right deal there, I have no problem keeping him in his current role. We got pretty far last year with him on the roster.


What worries me about trading Raymond just now is it is obvious that we don't yet know his full capabilities. I would squirm if we bundled him for someone more flashy only to see Raymond prove what over 20+ NHL teams who sought to sign him thought they saw in him.

Also why is his defensive talents so underrated? (maybe not by MG and AV) but definitely on these boards. He is probably the best defensive forward we have after Kes and maybe Burr.

This is something he has always had and while Booth for example is more direct and grittier even he by his own admission lately said he is having to work to improve defensively. Raymond does it by instinct it seems.

This from an earlier post:

The Canucks feel the answer is 'yes' on both counts. That's why they think Raymond was a steal in the second round with the 51st overall pick.

"We feel he's able to play," says Ron Delorme, Chief Scout of the Vancouver Canucks. "So many people I've talked to have told me what a good player they think [Raymond] is. Kevin Lowe just told me the other day what a good pick he thinks Raymond is."

"He has very good speed and he sees options so quickly. He handles the puck extremely well while he's in motion and he's always dangerous because he can change direction in tight spaces so quickly. And his thinking complements everything else so well."

Delorme says Raymond could have easily gone in the the first round, but being a 19 year-old, other teams likely felt they could wait until the third round and still get a crack. The Canucks weren't willing to gamble.

"We had considered moving up to late in the first round to get at him," says Delorme, "that's how high we are on him."

Raymond's coach in Camrose, Boris Rybalka, agrees. He feels Raymond's an elite talent, and he's not alone. Raymond had 26 different NHL teams interview him prior to the draft August 30th.

Edited by Bodee, 15 February 2012 - 09:55 AM.

  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#199 D-Money

D-Money

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 12,863 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 06

Posted 15 February 2012 - 12:25 PM

What worries me about trading Raymond just now is it is obvious that we don't yet know his full capabilities.


Raymond is not a prospect/project anymore. He is 26 years-old, and has played 350 NHL games (inc playoffs). It's safe to say he is as good now as he will ever be.

A couple of years ago - maybe even just one year ago - your argument would have had merit. But add in another season, a full run of the playoffs (with 8 points), it's crystal clear now. The potentially/likely career-limiting injury is the icing on the cake.

Also why is his defensive talents so underrated? (maybe not by MG and AV) but definitely on these boards. He is probably the best defensive forward we have after Kes and maybe Burr.


I don't need to guess who AV thinks are the best defensive forwards on our team. All I have to do is look at the PK TOI/game of our forwards:

1 Manny Malhotra - 2:38
2 Jannik Hansen - 2:21
3 Ryan Kesler - 2:14
4 Alexandre Burrows - 2:04
5 Maxim Lapierre - 1:22
6 Chris Higgins - 1:15
7 Mason Raymond - 1:13

Mason is pretty good defensively, but he's far from our best... ...pretty much the same as he is offensively.

This is something he has always had and while Booth for example is more direct and grittier even he by his own admission lately said he is having to work to improve defensively. Raymond does it by instinct it seems.


Every player on an AV-coached team needs to make a commitment to defensive responsibilities, or they simply won't get icetime (see: Ballard). Booth is new to our team and coach, so he's learning what is expected of him. Whereas Raymond has been groomed by AV to play a 2-way game.

This from an earlier post:


Seriously? Pulling up quotes from years ago, when Raymond was a prospect?

I can find you some glowing articles on Marek Zagrapan, Sasha Pokulok, and Alex Bourret too (the 1st rounders from Raymond's draft year who have yet to play an NHL game). Doesn't mean that they should be considered valuable now.
Just because some once thought Raymond was the steal of the draft doesn't mean he's anywhere near the league of Letang, Quick, or Yandle...who were all picked after him.

In retrospect, he was still a good pick, as only a handful of the 178 players picked after him ended up better. But just realize he is now all he'll ever be. If we can move him for a better player - or even a player whose role is more needed - we should do it.

Edited by D-Money, 15 February 2012 - 12:26 PM.

  • 2
Posted Image

#200 No.16

No.16

    K-Wing Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 57 posts
  • Joined: 08-January 12

Posted 15 February 2012 - 02:58 PM

With his speed, he should be drawing a lot of penalties from the opposition. But this never happens.


It's because he falls by himself all the time lol
  • 0

#201 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 15 February 2012 - 04:35 PM

Raymond is not a prospect/project anymore. He is 26 years-old, and has played 350 NHL games (inc playoffs). It's safe to say he is as good now as he will ever be.

A couple of years ago - maybe even just one year ago - your argument would have had merit. But add in another season, a full run of the playoffs (with 8 points), it's crystal clear now. The potentially/likely career-limiting injury is the icing on the cake.



I don't need to guess who AV thinks are the best defensive forwards on our team. All I have to do is look at the PK TOI/game of our forwards:

1 Manny Malhotra - 2:38
2 Jannik Hansen - 2:21
3 Ryan Kesler - 2:14
4 Alexandre Burrows - 2:04
5 Maxim Lapierre - 1:22
6 Chris Higgins - 1:15
7 Mason Raymond - 1:13

Mason is pretty good defensively, but he's far from our best... ...pretty much the same as he is offensively.



Every player on an AV-coached team needs to make a commitment to defensive responsibilities, or they simply won't get icetime (see: Ballard). Booth is new to our team and coach, so he's learning what is expected of him. Whereas Raymond has been groomed by AV to play a 2-way game.



Seriously? Pulling up quotes from years ago, when Raymond was a prospect?

I can find you some glowing articles on Marek Zagrapan, Sasha Pokulok, and Alex Bourret too (the 1st rounders from Raymond's draft year who have yet to play an NHL game). Doesn't mean that they should be considered valuable now.
Just because some once thought Raymond was the steal of the draft doesn't mean he's anywhere near the league of Letang, Quick, or Yandle...who were all picked after him.

In retrospect, he was still a good pick, as only a handful of the 178 players picked after him ended up better. But just realize he is now all he'll ever be. If we can move him for a better player - or even a player whose role is more needed - we should do it.


Fair enough but he has had a bad injury causing him to miss the whole of the close season since then. That imo is a game changer and why I don't want any knee jerk reaction.
The original old quotes are valid as they are a testament to how scouts assessed his character, something constantly under attack on here.
I still think the lack of his and Hamhuis's defensive qualities in game 7 went a long way to deciding the outcome.

But just realize he is now all he'll ever be.

I'm sorry but here I have to totally disagree with you as imo, that is never the case in elite sport.

Edited by Bodee, 15 February 2012 - 04:39 PM.

  • 0
Kevin.jpg

#202 riffraff

riffraff

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,051 posts
  • Joined: 10-April 07

Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:25 PM

I have to agree with this. I also agree with bot CanucksJay and Baggins.

I think that if Raymond could be moved for the type of player that CJ wants, then Gillis should do it. However, I also agree with Baggins in that I don't see how Raymond is going to bring us said player. And if it means that the trading partner wants us to throw is a first-round pick, or a prospect like Schroeder or Jensen, then my answer would be "no thanks".


Raymond straight up won't bring much and I'm in full agreement about not trading the future along with Raymond in some package deal....well almost full agreement
  • 0
Posted Image


CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#203 Baggins

Baggins

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,020 posts
  • Joined: 30-July 03

Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:57 AM

*
POPULAR

Raymond is not a prospect/project anymore. He is 26 years-old, and has played 350 NHL games (inc playoffs). It's safe to say he is as good now as he will ever be. A couple of years ago - maybe even just one year ago - your argument would have had merit. But add in another season, a full run of the playoffs (with 8 points), it's crystal clear now. The potentially/likely career-limiting injury is the icing on the cake.


349 career games (inc playoffs) with 143 points (including 8 playoff points). That was actually Henrik Sedins first four seasons. I'd wager you were one of the many that labelled him a bust. Daniel in his first four years was 346 career games (inc playoffs) with 164 points (including 13 playoff points).

For comparison Raymond is:
349 career games (inc playoffs) with 164 points (including 15 playoff points).

Now the Sedins were younger, but they still had four NHL 2nd line seasons.


Martin St Louis had a career season high of 40 points before the 02/03 season when at 27 he had a 70 point season. Todd Bertuzzi at 26 had a career high season of 55 points. The following season he had 85 points. Markus Naslund had a career high of 65 points at 26 years of age. he followed that up with 75, 90 and 104 points seasons. At 26 Alex Burrows had a career season high of 12 goals/31 points.

The truth is you don't know with any certainty at all that Raymond has peaked any more than people did about those mentioned above.
  • 6
Posted Image

#204 Millerdraft

Millerdraft

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,509 posts
  • Joined: 02-March 04

Posted 16 February 2012 - 10:58 AM

I thought Raymond had another very strong game last night but I wasn't able to get around to the third period tally (nor could I handle sitting through that PHX snorefest for a 2nd time).
  • 1

Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#205 LuongoSweep

LuongoSweep

    K-Wing Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Joined: 15-February 12

Posted 16 February 2012 - 11:26 AM

I thought Raymond had another very strong game last night but I wasn't able to get around to the third period tally (nor could I handle sitting through that PHX snorefest for a 2nd time).


I agree completely. Raymond was using his speed to gain quick entry and make good passes. That being said, he needs to learn how to control his engines better. He's still overskating himself.
  • 0

#206 doraemonBlue

doraemonBlue

    Comets Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Joined: 02-January 12

Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:19 PM

So, who else wants to start a 'popular' thread? There are now 21 Canucks to choose from since Burrows and Raymond are gone...

'(Insert Current Canuck here)? Do We Really Want Him?'

and you'll garner all the attention you want...
  • 0

#207 keslerian one

keslerian one

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,287 posts
  • Joined: 27-April 11

Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:43 PM

So basically the argument distills down to:

Anti-Raymond Camp: He's not producing now. We need to win now and if he can be traded for someone who will give us immediate results with grit, size and a bit of scoring, then yes. We need to trade him regardless of his (skeptical) room for growth.

Pro-Raymond Camp: He's not producing now. But he's only 26 years old, has room for improvement, and is a great 2 way player that contributes to the team, despite not being as noticeable. He provides depth than any trades would get us, and is used to AV's system and has a history of chemistry with Kesler. Trading him may be shortsighted (see Grabner). Canucks have had many players (currently on the roster) who have had slower development, but that doesn't mean we should give up on Raymond.

Good arguments from both sides. It comes down to what MG thinks. I think MG will keep him for another year. This group (including Raymond) is too good to not give them another chance to go for it together.
  • 1

#208 FeStealth

FeStealth

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,386 posts
  • Joined: 10-March 04

Posted 16 February 2012 - 04:53 PM

349 career games (inc playoffs) with 143 points (including 8 playoff points). That was actually Henrik Sedins first four seasons. I'd wager you were one of the many that labelled him a bust. Daniel in his first four years was 346 career games (inc playoffs) with 164 points (including 13 playoff points).

For comparison Raymond is:
349 career games (inc playoffs) with 164 points (including 15 playoff points).

Now the Sedins were younger, but they still had four NHL 2nd line seasons.


Martin St Louis had a career season high of 40 points before the 02/03 season when at 27 he had a 70 point season. Todd Bertuzzi at 26 had a career high season of 55 points. The following season he had 85 points. Markus Naslund had a career high of 65 points at 26 years of age. he followed that up with 75, 90 and 104 points seasons. At 26 Alex Burrows had a career season high of 12 goals/31 points.

The truth is you don't know with any certainty at all that Raymond has peaked any more than people did about those mentioned above.


Each one of those player who did gain success did so after evolving their game. The twins started to add the transitional game instead of just always cycling in the corner, Bertuzzi started to actually use his bigger stature, Naslund was always a good player but lacked confidence.

Raymond, his game never changed and it seems like it'll never change. His only asset is his speed and even then it's very predictable. He's only fast going straight, where other players like Gaborik, Grabner, and Bure, they're great at stick-handling, but they can shift to another gear when going by a defenseman. Raymond is already going top-speed, so you can already see it coming. His shot spot is decent, his playmaking ability is non-existent and is positioning is marginal at best.

On a slightly different note... ever wonder why when Raymond goes to 50 points one, people are raving about him... yet Samuelsson had back to back 50 points and people aren't happy?
  • 2
<img src="http://i548.photobuc...kills22_b2.jpg" border="0" class="linked-sig-image" />
RIP Luc Bourdon
----

Thats the way it is now. IF you're rich you go to the game. If you are middle class you watch in hd, if you are lower class you watch in sd. If you are broke azz you listen to the radio.

Samuelsson to AV: He can go **** himself!


#209 Baggins

Baggins

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,020 posts
  • Joined: 30-July 03

Posted 17 February 2012 - 06:58 AM

Each one of those player who did gain success did so after evolving their game. The twins started to add the transitional game instead of just always cycling in the corner, Bertuzzi started to actually use his bigger stature, Naslund was always a good player but lacked confidence. Raymond, his game never changed and it seems like it'll never change. His only asset is his speed and even then it's very predictable. He's only fast going straight, where other players like Gaborik, Grabner, and Bure, they're great at stick-handling, but they can shift to another gear when going by a defenseman. Raymond is already going top-speed, so you can already see it coming. His shot spot is decent, his playmaking ability is non-existent and is positioning is marginal at best.

On a slightly different note... ever wonder why when Raymond goes to 50 points one, people are raving about him... yet Samuelsson had back to back 50 points and people aren't happy?


Could you not have said exactly the same thing about each of those players I mentioned at age 26? Then they got smarter and started using they're skills better. How can you possibly say without a doubt that Raymond can't get better? Without a crystal ball you can't.

Samuelsson is easy to explain. When the fickle fans here turn on a player it's very difficult for the player to win them back. The first half of last season Samuelsson was in the same boat as Raymond. Injury problems and playing a 2nd PP unit that got less time and had a 25 point center instead of the 70 point center they had the previous year. His points were down in the first half just like Raymond. The fickle fans turned on both of them. Samuelsson made up his points in the second half when Edler went down and he was put on the 1st PP unit point. Allowing him to rack up some points in the second half playing behind the Sedins and Kesler. But it was mainly assists while the fickle fans expected at least the 30 goals he scored the year before. Meanwhile Raymond was still struggling away on the 2nd PP unit which was made weaker still with the removal of Samuelsson. The PP is where Raymonds production took a drop. Even strength Raymond was on pace to exceed his previous years even strength total. I was actually more critical of Raymond during his 50 point season than I was last season.
  • 2
Posted Image

#210 Bodee

Bodee

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,257 posts
  • Joined: 26-May 11

Posted 17 February 2012 - 11:36 AM

Could you not have said exactly the same thing about each of those players I mentioned at age 26? Then they got smarter and started using they're skills better. How can you possibly say without a doubt that Raymond can't get better? Without a crystal ball you can't.

Samuelsson is easy to explain. When the fickle fans here turn on a player it's very difficult for the player to win them back. The first half of last season Samuelsson was in the same boat as Raymond. Injury problems and playing a 2nd PP unit that got less time and had a 25 point center instead of the 70 point center they had the previous year. His points were down in the first half just like Raymond. The fickle fans turned on both of them. Samuelsson made up his points in the second half when Edler went down and he was put on the 1st PP unit point. Allowing him to rack up some points in the second half playing behind the Sedins and Kesler. But it was mainly assists while the fickle fans expected at least the 30 goals he scored the year before. Meanwhile Raymond was still struggling away on the 2nd PP unit which was made weaker still with the removal of Samuelsson. The PP is where Raymonds production took a drop. Even strength Raymond was on pace to exceed his previous years even strength total. I was actually more critical of Raymond during his 50 point season than I was last season.


I think you have nailed it...........on more than one occasion on this thread but as in life people only see what they want to see. They want the next big thrill and if it is not served up on time they go looking for scapegoats.

The trouble is you are fighting a losing battle because these people, in most cases but with some exceptions, are only capable of looking at the bottom line. They don't appreciate often, the finer points of hockey and the many areas, other than scoring where a player can be effective and valuable to the team.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no point trying to debate with most of them because firstly they will never allow themselves to see any talent/value in their current whipping boy and even if Raymond moved on they would only draw another name off the roster and fabricated a false appreciation of their game. And so it goes on, that is how they get their rocks off, it seems to me.

They are not interested in any debate, they exist to get their kicks out of the skimmers and shallow thinkers who assume that when they are told "Raymond spends most of his time on his backside" that it is the gospel truth.

Raymond is not perfect, he has poor games but that applies to all the players, if they are human. Some players are fortunate that they get goals at a higher rate than others when they play well. These players are often given a free pass. I can sit at my TV and wait on another slump by Booth or Burrows or Hansen or Manny, then come on here and slaughter them.............acting like they have never played a decent game all season and insisting they be traded..............but I don't.
Most people don't because a) as long as they are putting in the effort and deserving selection by the Coach, they are happy....... B) these slumps are cyclical, and indeed Raymond has started to play well again (although to read the usual suspects on here you would never know it)

Raymond will always have my support, as long as he puts in the effort.
Duco, Bitz, Rome..........none of whom I particularly like in the team have been getting my support because they have put in the effort.
If Raymond is traded, so be it, I trust the Coach and MG. However while he is wearing the jersey and giving 100% effort, he deserves the support of each and every one of us.............much as we would all like to be treated in our own workplace.

Edited by Bodee, 17 February 2012 - 11:39 AM.

  • 4
Kevin.jpg




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.