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#241 DeNiro

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:30 AM

Huge difference in Neal and Torres DeNiro. It would be a disappointment if he turns out to be a Torres. Neal I can live with. Neal brings a lot to a team but like I said I'm hopeful Kassian scores more than Neal. I think he will.

If Kassian turns out to be a Bertuzzi in his prime then Canucks win the trade. Bert was one of the best players in the league for a couple of years, until the "incident".


There's not as much difference as you think.

Both are physical players. Neil is obviously more physical, but Torres can throw just as big of hits. And of course Neil is tougher and more intimidating, and actually enjoys dropping the mitts.

But Torres has better numbers than Neil over his career, regular season, and playoffs. Not saying that I would take Torres over Neil, but the fact is both are third liners who provide physicality and a little bit of offense.

If that's our only goal for Kassian, then we should have never made the trade. But I have a feeling he'll be a much better player than either of those two.
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#242 WHL rocks

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:49 AM

There's not as much difference as you think.

Both are physical players. Neil is obviously more physical, but Torres can throw just as big of hits. And of course Neil is tougher and more intimidating, and actually enjoys dropping the mitts.

But Torres has better numbers than Neil over his career, regular season, and playoffs. Not saying that I would take Torres over Neil, but the fact is both are third liners who provide physicality and a little bit of offense.

If that's our only goal for Kassian, then we should have never made the trade. But I have a feeling he'll be a much better player than either of those two.


Intangibles my friend, you forgot the intangibles. Neal over Torres 7 days out of 7.

Yeah I don't think Neal should be the "goal". But I think that's where it may end up. If I was a betting man I would say Neal is where it will end up. I think Neal is a bit more physical than Kassian will be at the NHL level but I think Kassian will be a bit more offensive.

If Kassian is a 20 + goal guy and hits and fights like Neal, that gives you Lucic. I just don't think Kassian will be a Milan Lucic in the NHL. I would love it but I don't see it.

But I hope I am sooo wrong. I would love it if Kassian can turn into a Lucic.

Edited by WHL rocks, 23 October 2012 - 01:02 AM.

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#243 DeNiro

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:22 AM

Intangibles my friend, you forgot the intangibles. Neal over Torres 7 days out of 7.

Yeah I don't think Neal should be the "goal". But I think that's where it may end up. If I was a betting man I would say Neal is where it will end up. I think Neal is a bit more physical than Kassian will be at the NHL level but I think Kassian will be a bit more offensive.

If Kassian is a 20 + goal guy and hits and fights like Neal, that gives you Lucic. I just don't think Kassian will be a Milan Lucic in the NHL. I would love it but I don't see it.

But I hope I am sooo wrong. I would love it if Kassian can turn into a Lucic.


He's 21. I don't see how you can make any sort of accurate projection so early in his career.

Sorry, but basing it on a gut feeling, isn't really basing it on much.

He could end up being Bert 2.0, or he could end up being a dud. Neither of us can pretend to know right now. Alot will be determined in the next few years of his development.
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#244 Boudrias

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:53 AM

He's 21. I don't see how you can make any sort of accurate projection so early in his career.

Sorry, but basing it on a gut feeling, isn't really basing it on much.

He could end up being Bert 2.0, or he could end up being a dud. Neither of us can pretend to know right now. Alot will be determined in the next few years of his development.

I keep looking for that 'mean' streak in Kassian. Not seen it yet. Neal has it the same way Lucic does. That said I would take Neal over Lucic. Neal goes 100% every time out, Lucic does not.

No doubt that Kassian is still feeling his way and is definitely listening to his coaches. Hockey success is so much about consistency shift after shift. Kassian has pretty soft hands which makes me hope that his offensive upside is superior to both Neal and Lucic. Beertuzzi put up points but he was no leader and his ability to play both ends of the ice was limited.
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#245 BananaMash

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:40 AM

*
POPULAR

I keep looking for that 'mean' streak in Kassian. Not seen it yet. Neal has it the same way Lucic does. That said I would take Neal over Lucic. Neal goes 100% every time out, Lucic does not.

No doubt that Kassian is still feeling his way and is definitely listening to his coaches. Hockey success is so much about consistency shift after shift. Kassian has pretty soft hands which makes me hope that his offensive upside is superior to both Neal and Lucic. Beertuzzi put up points but he was no leader and his ability to play both ends of the ice was limited.

I keep looking for that 'mean' streak in Kassian. Not seen it yet. Neal has it the same way Lucic does. That said I would take Neal over Lucic. Neal goes 100% every time out, Lucic does not.

No doubt that Kassian is still feeling his way and is definitely listening to his coaches. Hockey success is so much about consistency shift after shift. Kassian has pretty soft hands which makes me hope that his offensive upside is superior to both Neal and Lucic. Beertuzzi put up points but he was no leader and his ability to play both ends of the ice was limited.


Two fights (to go along with the two goals) in two games with Abbotsford, and that huge hit a coupe of games prior, followed by him tackling and punching the guy who tried to retaliate doesn't give you an indication of a mean-streak?
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#246 avelanch

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:44 AM

Two fights (to go along with the two goals) in two games with Abbotsford, and that huge hit a coupe of games prior, followed by him tackling and punching the guy who tried to retaliate doesn't give you an indication of a mean-streak?

pffft, call me when he 2 hands a guy in the back of the head and then stomps on his calf/neck. amirite?

Edited by avelanch, 23 October 2012 - 08:44 AM.

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#247 Gooseberries

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:58 AM

pffft, call me when he 2 hands a guy in the back of the head and then stomps on his calf/neck. amirite?

he said MEAN STREAK not KILLING SPREE.
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#248 avelanch

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:00 AM

he said MEAN STREAK not KILLING SPREE.

Call me when he kicks a guy's dog and insults his mother?

Edited by avelanch, 23 October 2012 - 09:00 AM.

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#249 Gooseberries

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

Call me when he kicks a guy's dog and insults his mother?

now that's more like it!
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#250 Erik Karlsson

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:17 AM

I would be really dissapointed if he doesn't put up atleast 60 points and be a physical force in the NHL in his prime. I don't see why he can't do that at around 26 or so, he's only 21.
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#251 Snake Doctor

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:20 AM

I like what I see from Zack. Easily would make the big club if there was no lockout.
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#252 WHL rocks

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:51 AM

He's 21. I don't see how you can make any sort of accurate projection so early in his career.

Sorry, but basing it on a gut feeling, isn't really basing it on much.

He could end up being Bert 2.0, or he could end up being a dud. Neither of us can pretend to know right now. A lot will be determined in the next few years of his development.

If Kassian only becomes a Chris Neil/Raffi Torres type player, it will be a huge fail for Canuck management, and our player development system.

His ceiling should be a Bertuzzi type player, otherwise it will be a failure. And it's really not that unrealistic when you consider Bertuzzi only really had 3 or 4 years where he was a dominant player.

If we can't get 3 or 4 years of Kassian being a top player in the league, then it will be a disappointment. Because I bet Hodgson will be a top player in the league for at least that long, if not longer.


Wait, So you can accurately project that a 22 year old Hodgson will be a "top player in the league" for at least 3 or 4 years and maybe longer.

But I can't project that a certain player will be a solid 3rd liner in the league?

Weird..
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#253 playboi19

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:58 AM

Intangibles my friend, you forgot the intangibles. Neal over Torres 7 days out of 7.

Yeah I don't think Neal should be the "goal". But I think that's where it may end up. If I was a betting man I would say Neal is where it will end up. I think Neal is a bit more physical than Kassian will be at the NHL level but I think Kassian will be a bit more offensive.

If Kassian is a 20 + goal guy and hits and fights like Neal, that gives you Lucic. I just don't think Kassian will be a Milan Lucic in the NHL. I would love it but I don't see it.

But I hope I am sooo wrong. I would love it if Kassian can turn into a Lucic.

James Neal is a 40 goal scorer.

His name is Chris ***Neil*** btw. :picard:
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#254 WHL rocks

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:03 PM

Joe Thornton is a bad comparison, he's more of a bigger Henrik Sedin. Not that physical, passes instead of shooting. In tight checking series he dissapears.

Kassian is like a Hartnell. He has enough skill to play with the 1st liners and produce. But he's also one nasty piece of business and makes the other teams go crazy.

I'd take a Hartnell. Hopefully Kassian will be a bit more menacing than Hartnell. I'd love Hartnell's scoring ability out of Kass.
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#255 Gooseberries

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:14 PM

James Neal is a 40 goal scorer.

His name is Chris ***Neil*** btw. :picard:

lmao I was thinking in my head, wow I need to pay more attention to the east...I didn't even realize Neal was physical at all!
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#256 Tangerines

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 02:46 PM

Two fights (to go along with the two goals) in two games with Abbotsford, and that huge hit a coupe of games prior, followed by him tackling and punching the guy who tried to retaliate doesn't give you an indication of a mean-streak?


^^^^
This

Like are some people blind, or just ignorant? Were we all watching the same games this past weekend? What else could we have asked him to do besides what he did to indicate that he was an impactful player that brought everything that we expect from him including a mean streak?
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#257 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:47 PM

Yeah sure; I bet on Rocky Balboa too...

Look, your right, it is possible. But that does not mean we should be getting wet thinking it's gunna happen. It's bad enough that Hodgson has to be a dweeb, and Kassian superman here on CDC, but those comparison's are unfortunately inevitable. Comparison's with Thornton are stupid.

Well, at least if Kass run's for President he's probably smarter than George Bush! :frantic:

Anything is possible my friend. Depends on how much someone really wants something, and do whatever it takes to get there. Kass has the talent, tools, and the support to get him to an elite level in this game. Whether he has the drive to get there is entirely up to him though. He is also only 21, has a lot to learn, and still needs to improve/refine his game. Only time will tell. My point is that I wouldn't rule out the possibility.


Ooooh, sorry; salary aside (not worth $6 mill), Lucic is a bull mastiff who has been running just fine with greyhounds. His hockey contributions trump Chris Neil, and I'd be betting on him in a fight as well. Lets leave it though, as I would love to see either of them with us in the right circumstance. Or that Kass can offer some of what they do!

I keep looking for that 'mean' streak in Kassian. Not seen it yet. Neal has it the same way Lucic does. That said I would take Neal over Lucic. Neal goes 100% every time out, Lucic does not.

No doubt that Kassian is still feeling his way and is definitely listening to his coaches. Hockey success is so much about consistency shift after shift. Kassian has pretty soft hands which makes me hope that his offensive upside is superior to both Neal and Lucic. Beertuzzi put up points but he was no leader and his ability to play both ends of the ice was limited.


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#258 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:04 PM

Actually, Torres was an even higher draft pick than Kassian, a legitimate sniper. They are virtually the same size, speed and for all practical purposes had similar talent coming out of junior. Just Kassian has a bigger rep as a fighter.

Maybe it's a disappointing comparison cuz Torres never reached his ceiling; but the comparison is waaaaaay closer than you think. Raffi has had a long NHL career and DOES help his teams! Nobody should be sneezing at Raffi Torres here.

Huge difference in Neal and Torres DeNiro. It would be a disappointment if he turns out to be a Torres. Neal I can live with. Neal brings a lot to a team but like I said I'm hopeful Kassian scores more than Neal. I think he will.

If Kassian turns out to be a Bertuzzi in his prime then Canucks win the trade. Bert was one of the best players in the league for a couple of years, until the "incident".


I think the Hartnall comparison is the best here; both the type of player we'd like Kass to be and a reasonable expectation of his productivity or ceiling. Ceiling can be as high as the sky, but I don't see Kassian having 98 point seasons as some hope for. This is fair > well done!

Joe Thornton is a bad comparison, he's more of a bigger Henrik Sedin. Not that physical, passes instead of shooting. In tight checking series he dissapears.

Kassian is like a Hartnell. He has enough skill to play with the 1st liners and produce. But he's also one nasty piece of business and makes the other teams go crazy.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 23 October 2012 - 04:10 PM.

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#259 canuck_trevor16

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:23 PM

Kassasin being Hartnell and Schroeder being Giroux like would be the best scenrio!
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#260 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

Last year you were amongst those downplaying expectations for Hodgson. Suggesting perhaps he could use another year in the AHL and had to earn his place but preaching patience and that, also, he would make it and achieve great results for us. But certainly I remember you downplaying potential so guys did not get over their heads, and that you have taken a similar positive but patient approach with most of our prospects.

Here u are perhaps setting the bar for Kassian at Bertuzzi? Bertuzzi was drafted lower than Kassian, but was also heralded as a steal at #23. I remember in Vancouver at the time people winging badly we did not pick him, and saying he belonged with the big names in one of the best drafts ever (Jason Allison, Chris Pronger, Kariya, Jason Arnott...). My point is that though he was drafted lower there was a huge uproar about Bertuzzi, who was also a first line NHL player at 20. There was never such buzz about Kassian, except semi-recently here on CDC. What is it about Kassian that has a (one of few on CDC ) normally rationale poster going gaga?

He's 21. I don't see how you can make any sort of accurate projection so early in his career.

Sorry, but basing it on a gut feeling, isn't really basing it on much.

He could end up being Bert 2.0, or he could end up being a dud. Neither of us can pretend to know right now. Alot will be determined in the next few years of his development.


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#261 canucklehead44

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:55 PM

I really think Bertuzzi is the best comparison. Both plays are big and mean but have a certain finesse in their game that you don't see from a guy like Torres or Neal.
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#262 WHL rocks

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:01 PM

Actually, Torres was an even higher draft pick than Kassian, a legitimate sniper. They are virtually the same size, speed and for all practical purposes had similar talent coming out of junior. Just Kassian has a bigger rep as a fighter.

Maybe it's a disappointing comparison cuz Torres never reached his ceiling; but the comparison is waaaaaay closer than you think. Raffi has had a long NHL career and DOES help his teams! Nobody should be sneezing at Raffi Torres here.


Yeah, the comparison was between Torres and Neil.

My contention is that Kassian is much more likely to end up a Neil more than a Bertuzzi. Torres is much much closer to Neil than Bertuzzi. So yeah I could see Kassian turn out to be a Torres.

Your point about Torres being a higher draft pick than Kassian pretty much says what I'm saying. Lets not get ahead of ourselves and say Kassian will be a 40+ goal scorer and nearly a hundred point guy aka Bertuzzi.

Like I said I don't see Kassian being the same fighter as Neil but he will be a better scorer. I think he'll better fighter than Torres and about the same scorer. Torres has scored 20,21,27 and 19 goals in the NHL. If Kassian turns out to be a 20+ goal scorer and willing to drop the gloves more than Torres I think you've got a pretty good player.

But if we expect Kassian to score 20 to 30 goals and be the same fighter as Neil then you have a Lucic.
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#263 Tangerines

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:53 PM

Yeah, the comparison was between Torres and Neil.

My contention is that Kassian is much more likely to end up a Neil more than a Bertuzzi. Torres is much much closer to Neil than Bertuzzi. So yeah I could see Kassian turn out to be a Torres.

Your point about Torres being a higher draft pick than Kassian pretty much says what I'm saying. Lets not get ahead of ourselves and say Kassian will be a 40+ goal scorer and nearly a hundred point guy aka Bertuzzi.

Like I said I don't see Kassian being the same fighter as Neil but he will be a better scorer. I think he'll better fighter than Torres and about the same scorer. Torres has scored 20,21,27 and 19 goals in the NHL. If Kassian turns out to be a 20+ goal scorer and willing to drop the gloves more than Torres I think you've got a pretty good player.

But if we expect Kassian to score 20 to 30 goals and be the same fighter as Neil then you have a Lucic.


I wanna Lucic! :P

Edited by JohnLennon, 23 October 2012 - 05:54 PM.

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#264 WHL rocks

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:03 PM

I wanna Lucic! :P


Gosh every fan of every NHL team wants a Lucic. I bet Boston fans want another Lucic.

Man, that would be awesome.
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#265 ZackAttack-9

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:15 PM

We'll look back and see the lockout as beneficial to Kassian. (Like Kes in 04-05)

Basically, ZK's career would be in AV's hands. Vig has a heavy hand and not a coach for the faint of heart. Many variables that put Kass on the fourth line last year during the stretch. Remember when the Isles shipped out Bert, he was like a Steve Bernier at the time, wildcard if you will. In this day and age, prospects don't **** around. It's either mega bucks or a life of regrets and what could've been.

Think of Dusty Buf and where his hard work has gotten him, never mind that good time he had on the lake ;)

As for the Torres/ Kassian/ Neil. Great comparisons and very smart juxtapositions from CDC.

Edited by ZackAttack-9, 23 October 2012 - 06:18 PM.

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#266 Tangerines

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:27 PM

Gosh every fan of every NHL team wants a Lucic. I bet Boston fans want another Lucic.

Man, that would be awesome.


"When" Kass pans out and becomes a better version of Lucic (just being overly optimistic ::D), I cant wait till they go toe to toe! That would be an incredible bout! :frantic:
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#267 ZackAttack-9

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:31 PM

"When" Kass pans out and becomes a better version of Lucic (just being overly optimistic ::D), I cant wait till they go toe to toe! That would be an incredible bout! :frantic:


NOW... if it happened in BOS or VAN would that factor in? IMO the bout will be 3-5 years away but it will happen. BUT if Kass does fight him this year, We'll know the bull has horns to take on Lucic.
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#268 Machine Gun Kelly

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:32 PM

I could see Kassian as a Hartnell but tougher and a bit more offense
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#269 ZackAttack-9

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:39 PM

So Kassian in the same echelon as Neil, Hartnell, Torres annnd Bert.

Sounds concise. Bert is a bit above Hartnell, a full level above Neil and twice as good as Torres, whom I love.
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#270 WHL rocks

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:45 PM

"When" Kass pans out and becomes a better version of Lucic (just being overly optimistic ::D), I cant wait till they go toe to toe! That would be an incredible bout! :frantic:

NOW... if it happened in BOS or VAN would that factor in? IMO the bout will be 3-5 years away but it will happen. BUT if Kass does fight him this year, We'll know the bull has horns to take on Lucic.


I do recall hearing last year that MG and company told Kass not to fight and just concentrate on hockey. He still dropped them with Staubitz and showed well. Kass lost but Staubitz is an accomplished fighter. The kid did pretty good, especially considering he was only 20yrs old.

Lucic, maybe not yet. I too would love to see that bout in a couple of years. I wouldn't be surprised if Kass drops them with Lucic the next time they play. Heck get it over with. If the kid does well it will boost his confidence to no end, if he loses its all good cus he's still getting his feet wet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5NgcKBMIf4

Edited by WHL rocks, 23 October 2012 - 06:47 PM.

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