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The False Rationale To Trade CoHo


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#31 لني

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:45 AM

After going through the COHO and Kassian threads the dominant rationale among the crowd that likes this trade to bring in Kassian is that he brings an element of "toughness" to the line-up that we didn't previously have, and that COHO didn't have a spot behind Kes and Hank moving into the future.

Fair enough COHO ain't exact 6,3 230! However i think these arguments are in many ways flawed.

The leading hitter on the Canucks is Lappy. He has 178 hits in 63 games. or 2.83 hits per game, averaging just over 11 TOI per game. He also has 7 fighting majors, scrapping in just over 11% of all games this year. He has 118PIM averaging 1.87pim/gm

Zach Kassian on the other hand has 39 hits in 27 games or 1.44 hits per game, averaging 12 TOI per game, he has 2 fighting majors, fighting just 7.5% of all games this year and has accumulated 20PIM averaging 0.74PIM/gm

!


TL:DR all of it.

Your logic is flawed however if you think Kassian was brought in to be a 3rd line grinder/hitter.

Like a Bertuzzi hes an offense first, physical second guy.

He will look for the goal/pass first unlike Lappierre.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#32 لني

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:50 AM

This team lost in the SCF series scoring only 8 goals in 7 games with the PP stopped clicking, moron AV is dead wrong when he keeps saying he needs a checking 3rd line. Now that Coho the goal scorer and playmaker of the 3rd line and the center piece of the 2nd unit PP is traded, I'm wondering who is going to score that much needed goal when the Sedins once again are shut down, as often happens. AV is just a coward who is too afraid to lose. He has the advantage of having basically third liners, Lapierre, Maholtra, Weise playing on the 4th line and yet they are all MINUS players, as always under AV's dump for a change game plan. The 4th line should be a scoring line instead of a defensive liability under AV. Goals will be tough to come by again this spring.


We lost because kelser was hurt and sedins game was shut down.

Having a 3rd line that can score helps a little.

What helps even more is having someone difficult to shut down in the first place.

Kassian is a guy who fits this molds. The hope is that he realizes that potential.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#33 Haidacanuck

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:59 AM

It's no secret that gmmg has coveted a power forward and I think the price was too high for his wishes. I fn hope I'm wrong. I hope Kassian is a scoring machine. I really saw coho as a future player to wear the "C" he was that smart with the puck. I've liked all of gmmg moves except the Ballard issue I hope it's not another Grabner.

#34 Honky Cat

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:12 AM

Hodgson+ sulzer for Dustin Brown?


MG made it clear that he would not trade Cody Hodgson for an older player..Basically,the deal is a swap of prospects.One of them is a bit farther in his development than the other one.

#35 لني

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:22 AM

It's no secret that gmmg has coveted a power forward and I think the price was too high for his wishes. I fn hope I'm wrong. I hope Kassian is a scoring machine. I really saw coho as a future player to wear the "C" he was that smart with the puck. I've liked all of gmmg moves except the Ballard issue I hope it's not another Grabner.


It's no secret that every bloody GM covers PF.

This why they are notoriously expensive to get.

Look at Nash.

The ???? guy is not even PPG making 7.8 which I think is overpayment. Plus the cost to acquire.
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It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.


Logic at its finest.

#36 Pouria

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:40 AM

Didnt ever think GMMG was the type of guy to make this kind of deal.


When he got hired, he said that he would do BOLD moves. I guess this was a bold move lol

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#37 Ghostdivision

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:42 AM

What I love is kassian threads by people who have never watched him play but have decided they have it figured out.

#38 Raging Cookies

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:46 AM

Thank you for posting this. I was thinking of posting a very similar topic sometime next week when everything cools down ( a tad). You gave some very valid reasons that counter MG's fanboys (and people that are actually fans of this trade in general).

^ I don't think so as before today, nearly all of us didn't want to see CoHo leave for anyone including the stars let alone a prospect that several people on this board didn't know of until this trade went down.


The fact that they are ignorant hockey fans and purely Canuck fans is THEIR problem.

If half of the idiots in this place knew a tenth of the prospects around this league, no one would be hating on this trade as much as they have.

(Again, unless they've recently bought a Hodgson jersey)

Edited by Raging Cookies, 28 February 2012 - 03:47 AM.

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#39 westvandude

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 03:48 AM

Just doesn't make sense why Hodgson was traded. MG never overpays, or gives proven NHLers for prospects, which Kassian is right now.


Maybe this trade does fit your description of MG's guidelines for trades... maybe it's not all that it seems to us regular folks...

#40 JustNazzy

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 04:01 AM

Cody Hodgson also plays some of the most sheltered minutes in the NHL when he was here.

Im not saying he won't produce in Buffalo but think of it this way.

When Van played Boston how much Zdeno Chara did Hodgson see?
Now how much Zdeno Chara will Hodgson see when he plays in Buffalo?

There really is 2 sides to the ice time argument


He didn't really see much of Chara. That was all Boston though. The canucks played in Boston giving the bruins last change. It was up to Boston, to match the lines accordingly. You can't say that he's sheltered when we don't even play at home...

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#41 MacdeesSnipinGs

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:32 AM

No it cannot be applied here and your reference to Malkin, Crosby, Staal is very flawed because Shero stated today (with reference to not making a trade and being hopeful Crosby would return) that when/if Sid returns Staal will/can play wing. We would not be able to afford to pay CoHo what he'll earn in the next couple years with Henrik and Kes ahead of him. It just doesnt' make sense to pay a 3rd line center the type of money he'd demand.


It doesn't apply because Stall plays Wing?

why cant Coho play wing?

We cant afford him argument? I want to win the Stanley cup now! Not worried about the 2013-2014 season The money He will demand? if he has two 20 goal years with 50-60 points...3.5 million? Gillis can make it work and besides he is going to an RFA and you can still trade him after his contract expires!

#42 Nicklasjensen46

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:49 AM

I miss Coho, and the constant Debates about Ice Time.. I hope we get him back, and Kassian turns out to be what he should be.


we wont get him back...

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#43 kloubek

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:50 AM

I don't think this really warrants a new thread - but your numbers (I'll assume they are correct) are undeniable.

The only thing I will disagree with is that I don't think you keep a player like Hodgson playing on the 3rd line just "in case" one of your top guys goes down. You compare it to the Schneider situation - and rightfully so - but I'm one of those who feel that having an elite backup goalie isn't a worthwhile use of assets either.
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#44 Get real canuck fans

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:55 AM

we wont get him back...



Very pissed at this trade. If they traded Coho and a 1st for Kassian and Gaustad I could see the point, at least Gaustad can produce something, but the chances of Kassian filling in and making the 2nd unit PP click is almost zero. The chances of Kassian scoring in the tough games is near zero.
Today Kassian doesn't bring more to the table than Bitz or Duco. Pretty sure the other D we got isn't much an improvement over Sulzer NOW.

#45 malHOEtra

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 11:27 AM

He didn't really see much of Chara. That was all Boston though. The canucks played in Boston giving the bruins last change. It was up to Boston, to match the lines accordingly. You can't say that he's sheltered when we don't even play at home...


Thats just a generic example.

The point is, his minutes in Vancouver were pretty sheltered. Didn't face top competition because Kesler and Henrik saw top competition.

Malhotra took care of the bulk of the defensive work, so Cody really got some sheltered minutes here.

Hes ready for top 6 time, but its gonna be an adjustment for him when he has guys like Girardi, Chara and Letang working on him more.
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I think Columbus would move him for significantly less than Raymond.

I think you could get him for a B-Level prospect (Yann Sauve) or maybe NYI 4th + Vancouver 4th.

Pahlson was actually Malhotras replacement in Columbus (you could even argue Pahlson > Malhotra).


#46 Smashian Kassian

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:33 PM

we wont get him back...


Obvisously I was just saying that. Im happy with Kassian though as someone else said hes like bertuzzi in his prime. Hes a big man with good hands let alone a pretty heavy shot.

Thats the reason we have to give up hodgson, Top prospects of hodgsons style come around way more than top prospects that play kassians style.

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#47 thehamburglar

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:40 PM

You could even say that the canucks were sellers at the deadline, trading proven NHL talent for future assets and raw players. Only problem is that the proven Nhl talent has plenty of future skill. Hodgson's numbers are really amzing if you look at the amount of ice time he would get, and his ice time could have been increased, theres alot of situations where AV can play him, but has to be a dumb idiot and keep him on the bench


MG sold a bright future great 1st liner, for a prospect that could fail. He does have the talent, but whether he does well here is unknown, where as Hodgson has proven himself here.
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#48 VanIsleNuckFan

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:44 PM

The fact that they are ignorant hockey fans and purely Canuck fans is THEIR problem.

If half of the idiots in this place knew a tenth of the prospects around this league, no one would be hating on this trade as much as they have.

(Again, unless they've recently bought a Hodgson jersey)


Haha, I was about to, glad I didn't!

#49 nux4lyfe

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 01:55 PM

People just don't get it, COHO is not a 3rd line player. Is he supposed to play 3rd line mins until Kesler and Sedin retire? If anything, We did CoHo a favor...Now he has the oppurtunity to blossom even more, be happy for him.

And I for one support this trade, Kassian is exactly what we need now and the future, Not only does he bring the physical play, he has hands, scoring touch and intimidation. We were all skepitical when we aqcuired Higgy and Lappy last season and the were a shoe in with the Van system...why not trust that to be the same outcome with Kassian?

Edited by nux4lyfe, 28 February 2012 - 01:57 PM.

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#50 The Coach

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:11 PM

I now hate Mike Gillis...

He has been flubbing deals for how long now?

Ballard...Booth what a stinker of a re-do for Sturm which stunk too...

AV runs this show how he wants and we've seen his ability to lead the team when it's crunch time.

NO CUP FOR VANCOUVER UNTIL AV IS GONE.

Gillis is selling our future to appease an arrogant coach.

Argue away, flame me, I don;t care...I;ve been watching this game and this team long enough to see a great team that is unable to produce due to the short comings of their leaders.

VANCOUVER FAILED ON THIS TRADE AND THE FUTURE JUST GOT A BIT DARKER.

Edited by The Coach, 28 February 2012 - 02:12 PM.


#51 ice orca

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:28 PM

People just don't get it, COHO is not a 3rd line player. Is he supposed to play 3rd line mins until Kesler and Sedin retire? If anything, We did CoHo a favor...Now he has the oppurtunity to blossom even more, be happy for him.

And I for one support this trade, Kassian is exactly what we need now and the future, Not only does he bring the physical play, he has hands, scoring touch and intimidation. We were all skepitical when we aqcuired Higgy and Lappy last season and the were a shoe in with the Van system...why not trust that to be the same outcome with Kassian?


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#52 ice orca

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:30 PM

sory nux4lyfe meant to quote the cryer below your post.

#53 JustNazzy

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 03:42 AM

Thats just a generic example.

The point is, his minutes in Vancouver were pretty sheltered. Didn't face top competition because Kesler and Henrik saw top competition.

Malhotra took care of the bulk of the defensive work, so Cody really got some sheltered minutes here.

Hes ready for top 6 time, but its gonna be an adjustment for him when he has guys like Girardi, Chara and Letang working on him more.


k, get what you mean now, cool. Thank you for explaining. =)

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#54 rb4u

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:27 AM

* sorry for going a little bit off topic here guys...

The only thing I will disagree with is that I don't think you keep a player like Hodgson playing on the 3rd line just "in case" one of your top guys goes down. You compare it to the Schneider situation - and rightfully so - but I'm one of those who feel that having an elite backup goalie isn't a worthwhile use of assets either.


Schneider has a 14-5-1 record right now as an elite backup. Safe to say that a more conventional one would have a worst record than that. Let's be generous and say that Schneider was the difference in only 4 games for us this year. That is 8 points in the standings, which will put us 3rd in the conference and hypothetically only 10 points instead of 18 points up on Colorado. And were it not for being in one of the worst Divisions in hockey this year, we would be further down the Conference in the 5-6th spot struggling for home ice advantage instead of having the luxury of resting a few of our veterans for what is hopefully a long playoff run.

So count me in as one who feels that having an elite backup goalie IS a worthwhile use of assets.

Edited by rb4u, 29 February 2012 - 08:36 AM.


#55 TorontoNucksFan

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:53 AM

Wow, this debate isn't going to be settled anytime soon.

But I do have to say this. After Game 6 of the SCF last year everyone was in arms because poor Sedin got ragdolled by Marchand. You think Lapierre or Bieksa would have answered the bell. They didn't. Heck even the twins wouldn't stand up for themselves. I also look at the Sharks series and the beating that Kesler took that essentially turned him from a MVP candidate during the Nashville series to a IR candidate during the finals.
Now think back to the game last night. How many hits and cheap shots did Biz Nasty get in? Look who was giving him the lip service the whole first period. If the pests on the opposition team are looking over their shoulder, they aren't focusing on Hank and Danny and Kess. That is just as valuable as a third line center that can pot 20 goals a year IMO.
And remember the kid is freaking 21 years old. Once he gets some ice time with his teammates he will be just fine. He did not look out of place last night at all and showed he could hit AND play. That setup to Hammy was pretty sweet. All that with probably a few hours sleep and the anxiety of joining a new team with pretty lofty expectations.
I'm sad to see Cody go, but Kassian is going to be a beast. Heck he's already partially there. Check the youtube video of him and Lepisto(sp?). I love the fact that he's in front of the Flyers net alone with 3 Flyers there and when challenged just starts wailling. Our current team sits in front of the net and get puchned, slashed and all they do is talk back. I'm sick of talk, I want action.
A few years back we had Rypien (RIP) and he brought so much energy dropping the mitts with anyone anytime. We haven't had that in the last 2 years. Now we have it and in a package that can play as well.
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#56 rb4u

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:54 AM

Cody Hodgson also plays some of the most sheltered minutes in the NHL when he was here.

Im not saying he won't produce in Buffalo but think of it this way.

When Van played Boston how much Zdeno Chara did Hodgson see?
Now how much Zdeno Chara will Hodgson see when he plays in Buffalo?

There really is 2 sides to the ice time argument


There are indeed 2 sides to the ice time argument, so indulge me for a second... :)

There is no doubt that CoHo saw some of the most sheltered minutes as the 3rd line centre. I would go as to suggest that this stat is not only misleading but also to our favor. Given the choice of using their top 2 pairings when oppositions play the Canucks, most teams would deploy them against the Sedin and Kesler lines (or at least try when they are playing at home and have last change). As per your argument there is simply no way for Chara to be on the ice against all 3 lines, the net result would be that we should have a greater expectations for secondary scoring as a playoff series progresses. Take CoHo out and plug in a more conventional checking line, and I believe that our team has just gotten easier to stifle. Now Chara (or someone like Weber) who plays 25 mins will have the opportunity to shut down most of our top 2 lines while they have home ice advantage. That said, this theoretically so also make it easier for us to employ our checking line while freeing up our scoring lines to do some damage when we play at home.

Is this the right strategy? Only time will tell. But almost all Stanley Cup winning teams have 3 scoring lines (or at least 2 scoring lines with a 3rd that can chip in occasionally) and we gave up that option this year when we traded away CoHo.

Edited by rb4u, 29 February 2012 - 08:56 AM.


#57 LeanBeef

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:55 AM

Should've just traded for Parros. pretty sure a 3rd round pick could've got us him

And why would we do that? He has no Offensive or Defensive upside. Has 1 good hit every 10 games and has a dusty mustache. He is utter garbage for this team.
At least Kassian has potential to be a Bertuzzi type player, and I'm pretty sure Kassian already is a better all around player than Parros.
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#58 Primal Optimist

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 08:59 AM

"me like coho, laugh at stoopid hockey managers, lead team to stanley cup final game 7 and win President Trophy, who don't know enough hockey, me smash"

Did I miss anything in my paraphrase of the OP?

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#59 TorontoNucksFan

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 09:08 AM

I'll add one more thing that I think played a huge part in GIllis' decision.

Cody has gone through 3 agents in 4 years. His family is very involved in his career. As a former agent did Gillis get any bad vibes by all this? Did he avoid future problems by seeing the signs? Who knows. But I think it figured into it.

#60 Lonny_Bohonos_14

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 09:27 AM

Just doesn't make sense why Hodgson was traded. MG never overpays, or gives proven NHLers for prospects, which Kassian is right now.


So 60 games makes Hodgson a proven NHLer?

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