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#241 fagin

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:34 PM

I for one hope they aren't the ruling party next election. The NDP days of the 90's and early 2000's still have me seeing red.

.........I don't beleive we have too many worries about those jokers regaining power in Bc

#242 gurn

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:38 PM

I am not a teacher but I did take walk the info line with them this morning.
One lady was marking student papers between her turns walking.
damm cold out there this am,if you go out to show support,take extra coffee.

#243 canucks.bradley

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:42 PM

my grade 12 year was affected by the last teacher strike and I can say...it really didn't affect me (content/knowledge wise)

if you read the textbook on your own/study with friends there really is no excuse for being behind.

i support the teachers 100% here. grades K-7, class size and comp matter. even in highschool...but to a lesser extent.
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K guys I nd hlp fast. Im @ a girls I rly like & txtng from my iphone. I did a #2 in the bathroom and it plugged, water is almost overflowing toilet. Srsly I dunno wut 2 do somebody help!


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#244 RUPERTKBD

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:27 PM

And you're flat out wrong about what the BCTF is fighting for. Wage increases (which essentially amount to a cost of living bump) are at the BOTTOM of our list. You are making statements on something you apparently know very little about. We don't expect the government to get blood from a stone, either. Classroom size, composition, teacher autonomy, etc, etc. I'm not here to explain all the ins and outs for you (especially since you have such strong ideas already anyway), but if you really want to understand what's going on, then read up about it. Again, this is NOT a cash-grab by teachers ...


Just curious Remy, regarding wage increases being at the bottom of the list, (and please don't assume that I'm taking sides here, I genuinely am curious) if the government were to give in on the other issues usch as class size, would the BCTF give up the 15% over three years? Would you be okay with it if they did?
Orland Kurtenbach and Dennis Kearns had just been torched 8-1 by the Habs, but they still took time to come out to meet us, some fellow BC boys who were playing hockey in Montreal. THAT"S what being a Canuck is!

#245 canucks_dynasty

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 02:58 PM

A friend of mine is a teacher. He said he's fine with the wage freeze as long as the government leave everything else the same. Not sure what was on the table or what the government wants to take away.

#246 inane

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 03:17 PM

Just curious Remy, regarding wage increases being at the bottom of the list, (and please don't assume that I'm taking sides here, I genuinely am curious) if the government were to give in on the other issues usch as class size, would the BCTF give up the 15% over three years? Would you be okay with it if they did?


They did before...now that deal, negotiated in 'good faith' is just being thrown out the window.

#247 Remy

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 05:36 PM

Fair enough. However, to some, your stance came across that way. Since I am married to a teacher, I could hear where you were coming from.

The teaching profession is a funny thing. As recent as 10 - 12 years ago, if you wanted to be a teacher there were temporary contracts out there to be had. Sure it took a bit to get on full-time, but there were jobs available. At the very least, a graduate could sign up to be a TOC in almost any district they chose to.

Fast-forward to today and (unless you are French) you have to compete just to get on any TOC list. Enrollment is down and teachers are working longer, but there are more universities than ever pumping out graduates. We should have seen this coming. I know everyone has the right to pursue whatever career they want, but I think universities should have a bit of a reality check and take a look at how many new grads they are putting into the job market.

At the same time, I don't think any of that can be cured in a new collective agreement. Sure if there were some significant changes in class sizes there would be more teachers employed, but I still think there are too many grads entering the job market. We're lucky because I am able to take my job wherever she needs to go for teaching work, but not everybody is like that.

I think another part of the general entitlement issue comes from the overall contract demands. I'm all in favour of class size and composition restrictions and I think most people can get on board with that. Some of the things (class size, I.E.P.s) my wife has already had to deal with as a TOC are ridiculous. Where I think the BCTF loses marks with the public are in the other demands. Things like the 15% wage increase and extraordinary bereavement leave that we've all heard about just don't fly with the general public. Many people out there haven't had raises themselves in a number of years, so they wonder why the teachers should be any different.

If the BCTF came out with contract demands that were significantly closer to what people can get on board with, I think they would have way more of the public behind them. But that's just my take...


Really great post. Perception is a funny thing and it can be tough to try and explain things in a way that makes sense to everyone. I was able to get on as a TOC right away but I've met a lot of people that had to move here from elsewhere in order to do the same. Other people, less recently, had to wait a couple of years to get hired just as a TOC, even here. It comes and goes.

I also agree that it might be a good idea to limit enrolment in BEd programs. They aren't doing anyone any favours by pumping out graduates when there are no jobs available. I've heard they're starting to have the same problem with lawyers, but I think that's more in the US.

You're right about some of the contract demands but I think that the intention was to ask for more, and bargain down to the core of what's really important, much like haggling. Another part of the problem is how much was stripped away in 2002 with the government's illegal move to toss a contract they had agreed to just a couple years prior (which the BC supreme court confirmed to be an illegal move). So there's a lot of fighting not for something new, but for what they used to have. I'm certainly no expert on the ins and outs of it.

As another poster asked, would be really be okay with zero pay increase if some of the other items were given a fair chance? Yes, I really do think so. I'd be okay with it, and I have heard many, many teachers say they would be as well. It would also help with public relations enormously, but I'm not part of those strategic decisions. The government, by the way, has taken pay increases over the last few years even while mandating net-zero for everyone else. It would be a much easier pill to swallow if they practiced what they preached.

#248 stawns

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 07:11 PM

Just curious Remy, regarding wage increases being at the bottom of the list, (and please don't assume that I'm taking sides here, I genuinely am curious) if the government were to give in on the other issues usch as class size, would the BCTF give up the 15% over three years? Would you be okay with it if they did?


The consensus at our information meeting this morning was that we would all gladly put the salary issue on the back burner, for the time being (though all we're asking is a cost of living increase), for the chance to negotiate, in good faith, all of the other items. Sadly,, the gov't will not give in on anything.......they are imposing this bill/contract on teachers, and ultimately students, and it matters not what we fight for.

#249 stawns

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 07:12 PM

The consensus at our information meeting this morning was that we would all gladly put the salary issue on the back burner, for the time being (though all we're asking is a cost of living increase), for the chance to negotiate, in good faith, all of the other items. Sadly,, the gov't will not give in on anything.......they are imposing this bill/contract on teachers, and ultimately students, and it matters not what we fight for.


as inane pointed out, Rupert, te teachers have given up salary in exchange for input on classroom composition in the past, only to have the gov't illegally rip up that agreement in 2002........a move the BC Supreme Court deemed was illegal.

#250 dragon

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:25 AM

ok i've read three pages and i have yet to find the following information
how much do teachers get paid anyway?
do they have 30 kids in one class?
how many special needs children are there really in a school?

isn't it all fun and games until high school? i remembered i didn't do *** or learn anything important until grade 10 or so....
i didn't live in bc until grade 8, but in grade 8 all we did was draw, draw, draw a whole bunch of stuff i felt that was a waste of time
and i see kids now in elementary and middle school all they do is play, homework for those grades should be easy to mark...unless they're pages long essays

#251 That's What She Said

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:39 AM

It was stated earlier in this thread but I think the question needs to be asked. If the job is so bad and teachers are so under paid and over worked why don't they quit? Why is it that more and more people go to school to become a teacher? Are they dumb? This same debate comes up very few years. No current teacher can claim they had never heard this from the teachers union. Yet they still wanted to become a teacher.
I know many love to teach and help kids. I support smaller class sizes and more helpers for special needs. But they money has to come from some where. There is only so much money. And many other unions feel their government workers need more too.

In high school I had a few teachers who pretty much admitted that they either a) got a degree that was basically "useless" (like art degrees that don't get you a job) or B) planned on going onto med school/getting a masters or some other form of higher education but didn't have the grades and figured ehhhhh, might as well go into
teaching so all that school wasn't for nothing. Don't get me wrong there's teachers who actually enjoy working with kids but I've found that it's pretty common with high school teachers.
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#252 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 10:07 AM

In high school I had a few teachers who pretty much admitted that they either a) got a degree that was basically "useless" (like art degrees that don't get you a job) or B) planned on going onto med school/getting a masters or some other form of higher education but didn't have the grades and figured ehhhhh, might as well go into
teaching so all that school wasn't for nothing. Don't get me wrong there's teachers who actually enjoy working with kids but I've found that it's pretty common with high school teachers.


So they pretty much admitted it? Huh, sounds plausible. You find it pretty common with high school teachers, is that based on your exaggerated sample size of three teachers who pretty much admitted it?
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#253 That's What She Said

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:37 AM

So they pretty much admitted it? Huh, sounds plausible. You find it pretty common with high school teachers, is that based on your exaggerated sample size of three teachers who pretty much admitted it?


Why is it so implausible? Lots of people are graduating from university only to find their degree doesn't help them get a job, and they figure, it's only another 2 years to get a teaching degree. While it's hard to get a permanent teaching job, once you do get in, and I'm not going to get into the debate on whether they deserve more money, but they get pretty good salary/benefits/retirement compared to most jobs, and you'd have to screw up majorly to lose your job. It's not just teachers, plenty of jobs probably have people who aren't truly passionate about it, and are in it for the money or money potential. I don't see why it's so implausible.
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#254 goalie13

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:38 AM

ok i've read three pages and i have yet to find the following information
how much do teachers get paid anyway?
do they have 30 kids in one class?
how many special needs children are there really in a school?

isn't it all fun and games until high school? i remembered i didn't do *** or learn anything important until grade 10 or so....
i didn't live in bc until grade 8, but in grade 8 all we did was draw, draw, draw a whole bunch of stuff i felt that was a waste of time
and i see kids now in elementary and middle school all they do is play, homework for those grades should be easy to mark...unless they're pages long essays


You mean unimportant things like reading? Grammar? Spelling? How about basic math? You couldn't have done grade 10 math without grade 1 through 9 math first. All the groundwork for high school came from elementary school.

I have a hard time believing that all you did in Grade 8 was draw. It may have been a long time ago, but I remember doing far more than just drawing (except in drafting class, all we did there was draw).

As for your other questions, I asked Google and found an article in the Globe and Mail that says "Teachers’ salaries in B.C. for the 60 school districts range from an average starting salary of $47,461 to an average maximum of $75,083."

My wife is an on-call teacher (aka substitute) and she worked enough to make a little under $18,000 last year. Most teachers have to put in several years on-call before getting an opportunity for even a short-term or part-time contract.

Yes, in older grades you will find many classes have 30 kids.

I have no stats on how many special needs kids are in the system, but from what my wife says, it is rare to find a class without at least one. Do not underestimate how much extra attention a single special needs kid can require. And all that extra attention just takes away from the rest of the class.
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#255 ronthecivil

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:15 PM

Ran into some teachers today and we had some good ideas.

Right now there are 54 school districts. That's way more than we need (especially when all we hear about is them fighting over books with gay parents in them.). Let's just do it by regions, just like the weather report (Lower mainland, Thompson okanagan, etc.) and that would drastically cut the payroll through consolidation of services. Are the needs of Burnaby so much different than Vancouver that they need their own school district?

Use that money to give teachers a raise. There you go, a raise and still net zero.

It goes in line with the governments plan to harmonise the contractss instead of having 54 different ones all with their own language.

#256 ronthecivil

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:23 PM

You mean unimportant things like reading? Grammar? Spelling? How about basic math? You couldn't have done grade 10 math without grade 1 through 9 math first. All the groundwork for high school came from elementary school.

I have a hard time believing that all you did in Grade 8 was draw. It may have been a long time ago, but I remember doing far more than just drawing (except in drafting class, all we did there was draw).

As for your other questions, I asked Google and found an article in the Globe and Mail that says "Teachers’ salaries in B.C. for the 60 school districts range from an average starting salary of $47,461 to an average maximum of $75,083."

My wife is an on-call teacher (aka substitute) and she worked enough to make a little under $18,000 last year. Most teachers have to put in several years on-call before getting an opportunity for even a short-term or part-time contract.

Yes, in older grades you will find many classes have 30 kids.

I have no stats on how many special needs kids are in the system, but from what my wife says, it is rare to find a class without at least one. Do not underestimate how much extra attention a single special needs kid can require. And all that extra attention just takes away from the rest of the class.


That or reading (and not the textbook) is what I did the majority of the time right through grade 12.

In grade six I was reading instead of doing my math work so the teacher said to work ahead. By the end of the week I was so far ahead for the rest of the year match class was reading time for me.

In grades 11&12 I had the same teacher for math and physics. The lesson plan was always ten mins of teaching and then 50 mins of going over the homework from the last night. The homework was always to do the "A" (easy) and "B" (moderate) questions. I made a deal that instead of that to just do the 2 or 3 "C" (hard) questions which I would typically do while the lesson was being taught.

The only question I ever asked during the homework questions was actually a joke regarding the flames after the Canucks trouced them 11-0 back in the day.

So yes, it's entirely reasonable that some people spent at very least the overwhelming majority of their time drawing.

#257 ronthecivil

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

Oh another good idea from the teachers.

Alot of them do lesson plans at home on their home computer. But they can't claim it as a work expense tax deduction for some reason.

Well, just wink wink nudge nudge allow them to do that up to say a 1500 deduction (which would be about 400 bucks in hand) on their home computor and while it's a cost it's not in the contract which can still be net zero!

#258 inane

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:25 PM

Ran into some teachers today and we had some good ideas.

Right now there are 54 school districts. That's way more than we need (especially when all we hear about is them fighting over books with gay parents in them.). Let's just do it by regions, just like the weather report (Lower mainland, Thompson okanagan, etc.) and that would drastically cut the payroll through consolidation of services. Are the needs of Burnaby so much different than Vancouver that they need their own school district?

Use that money to give teachers a raise. There you go, a raise and still net zero.

It goes in line with the governments plan to harmonise the contractss instead of having 54 different ones all with their own language.


All we hear about his fighting over books with gay parents? Wtf?

#259 ronthecivil

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:34 PM

All we hear about his fighting over books with gay parents? Wtf?


You know, the childrens books like my two dads (or whatever) and the upset religous people? Certainly a big deal in burnaby, and it was in surrey....

What else have you heard of a school district doing though? Are you saying there's a legit reason to have 54 of them?

#260 stawns

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:40 PM

Why is it so implausible? Lots of people are graduating from university only to find their degree doesn't help them get a job, and they figure, it's only another 2 years to get a teaching degree. While it's hard to get a permanent teaching job, once you do get in, and I'm not going to get into the debate on whether they deserve more money, but they get pretty good salary/benefits/retirement compared to most jobs, and you'd have to screw up majorly to lose your job. It's not just teachers, plenty of jobs probably have people who aren't truly passionate about it, and are in it for the money or money potential. I don't see why it's so implausible.


people realize that most of my benefits and retirement comes directly out of my paycheque right?

#261 inane

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:44 PM

You know, the childrens books like my two dads (or whatever) and the upset religous people? Certainly a big deal in burnaby, and it was in surrey....

What else have you heard of a school district doing though? Are you saying there's a legit reason to have 54 of them?


Are you serious?

#262 stawns

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:46 PM

for those who think teachers are nothing but babysistters......how about this?

the average cost of daycare is about $4/hr, per kid..........so, $4/hr multiplied by 30 kids (if bill 22 comes in, there is no limit to class size)........that's about $120 per hour. Now, you claim I only work 6 hrs a day, so $120/hr multiplied by 6 hrs is $720 a day........where do I sign up, because right now I make about $200 (before taxes) per day, and I work 10-12 hours a day during the week and about 3-4 hrs on sundays.

#263 ronthecivil

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 01:53 PM

Are you serious?


Can't I be both? It's pretty clear they oversee the schools. Would you like to keep the cheap shots or actually grasp the concept...

Do we need to duplicate that 54 times?

Does that sound cost effective to you?

#264 dragon

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:06 PM

there's something to be done about the extra on-call and part-time teachers...cause obviously they're not getting enough hours...so shouldn't the teacher federation be reponsible for the scheduling and hiring? is there really a need for the so many on-call and part-time teachers? i feel bad for them cause in order for them to make a living they have to have a second job

as for full time teachers with job security....they should be lucky to have a job. I'm sure an on-call teacher would be more than happy to take their places and yet they are on strike for the benefits of the full timers?? this doesn't make sense to me...but someone correct me if i'm wrong thanks

#265 inane

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:13 PM

Can't I be both? It's pretty clear they oversee the schools. Would you like to keep the cheap shots or actually grasp the concept...

Do we need to duplicate that 54 times?

Does that sound cost effective to you?


You could say the same about anything that's broken up regionally. Do we need cities? provinces? Why do we have cities and provinces?

#266 dragon

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:16 PM

fraction started in grade 9 for my school...but i've learnt it from my parents in grade 3, and i didn't start writing essay and i mean a serious essay until grade 11...maybe it's just my school i don't know
grammar and langauge honestly i learnt it from reading outside of class and watching television

and yes all i did before grade 10 majority of the time was drawing...it was suppose to spark our creativity but i found it to be a waste of time...and they spent too much time praising students for accomplishing little things...it sounds great but i'd rather be praised for an actual accomplishment
although i did find classes like music, shop class, home etc to be good

You mean unimportant things like reading? Grammar? Spelling? How about basic math? You couldn't have done grade 10 math without grade 1 through 9 math first. All the groundwork for high school came from elementary school.

I have a hard time believing that all you did in Grade 8 was draw. It may have been a long time ago, but I remember doing far more than just drawing (except in drafting class, all we did there was draw).

As for your other questions, I asked Google and found an article in the Globe and Mail that says "Teachers’ salaries in B.C. for the 60 school districts range from an average starting salary of $47,461 to an average maximum of $75,083."

My wife is an on-call teacher (aka substitute) and she worked enough to make a little under $18,000 last year. Most teachers have to put in several years on-call before getting an opportunity for even a short-term or part-time contract.

Yes, in older grades you will find many classes have 30 kids.

I have no stats on how many special needs kids are in the system, but from what my wife says, it is rare to find a class without at least one. Do not underestimate how much extra attention a single special needs kid can require. And all that extra attention just takes away from the rest of the class.



#267 stawns

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:21 PM

You mean unimportant things like reading? Grammar? Spelling? How about basic math? You couldn't have done grade 10 math without grade 1 through 9 math first. All the groundwork for high school came from elementary school.

I have a hard time believing that all you did in Grade 8 was draw. It may have been a long time ago, but I remember doing far more than just drawing (except in drafting class, all we did there was draw).

As for your other questions, I asked Google and found an article in the Globe and Mail that says "Teachers’ salaries in B.C. for the 60 school districts range from an average starting salary of $47,461 to an average maximum of $75,083."

My wife is an on-call teacher (aka substitute) and she worked enough to make a little under $18,000 last year. Most teachers have to put in several years on-call before getting an opportunity for even a short-term or part-time contract.

Yes, in older grades you will find many classes have 30 kids.

I have no stats on how many special needs kids are in the system, but from what my wife says, it is rare to find a class without at least one. Do not underestimate how much extra attention a single special needs kid can require. And all that extra attention just takes away from the rest of the class.


I'm over halfway through my pay scale (6 years in) and I work .9 (90%) of full time.........according to my taxes, I made about 45k before taxes and deductions last year.........so I took home under 30k last year. I'll top out at 52K (before taxes/deductions) after 11 years of service.

#268 goalie13

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:47 PM

I'm over halfway through my pay scale (6 years in) and I work .9 (90%) of full time.........according to my taxes, I made about 45k before taxes and deductions last year.........so I took home under 30k last year. I'll top out at 52K (before taxes/deductions) after 11 years of service.


And you're one of the lucky ones. You actually have a contract. Depending on where you teach (sorry if you mentioned it earlier) I would imagine you get laid off at the end of the school year and then have to get in line for new contracts for the next year?
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#269 stawns

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:48 PM

And you're one of the lucky ones. You actually have a contract. Depending on where you teach (sorry if you mentioned it earlier) I would imagine you get laid off at the end of the school year and then have to get in line for new contracts for the next year?


I'm in my 6th year and I still get laid off every summer........last year I got my posting 3 days before school started.

#270 ronthecivil

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 02:54 PM

You could say the same about anything that's broken up regionally. Do we need cities? provinces? Why do we have cities and provinces?


Your right, you could say the same thing. In fact neighbouring cities sometimes are consolidated since it's an adimistrative cost savings. Vancouver used to be three seperate municipalities.

Are the schools in Burnaby so different than those in Vancouver that we should expect an uproar if they were consolidated. How about Coquitlam? Is grade three not grade three in Langely?

What's the compelling reason of having 54 seperate school districts?




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