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I Don't Get Why People Don't Think Schneider = Top 5 1St Round Pick


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#1 Sandro17

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 10:41 AM

I don't get why people don't think Schneider = top 5 1st round pick.

The way I see it, it takes a while to get any goalie prospect to get to Corys' level of goal tending.

Cory was the 26 overall draft pick on draft day years back and while 26th overall and top 5 in draft have major differences in talent level, we have to consider two factors.

1. Development time of any goalie.

Unless you draft a top 5 first round pick right off the bat, odds are, you'll have to take at least 5 years to develop one. So if you really want a bloody goalie, good luck trying to get one in this day and age because I doubt there are too many goalie prospects out there who are NHL ready.

2. The possibility of the top 5 pick being a bust

Cory has proven that he is not a bust. The top 5 guy who has never played in the NHL though, that's a different story.


You can always say that the top 5 pick is going to be "An impact player right off the bat"...and what Cory isn't?

The way I see it, Cory is worth a top 5 pick if not because of talent level, then because of the current NHL market which is not exactly abundant of top notch starters right now.

Edited by Sandro17, 23 March 2012 - 10:41 AM.


#2 D-Money

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:16 AM

In the past, I'd say no. But the more Schneider proves he is the real deal, the higher his value goes up.

Varlamov got a 1st and a 2nd, and the general consensus was that each would be in the #5-10 range. Colorado may outperform that though. At the time, Varlamov had proved a lot more than Schneider. But now I'd guess most GM's expect even more from Cory.
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#3 canucklehead44

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:35 AM

If we still had Hodgson then Hodgson and Schneider for the 1st overall would have made some sense.
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#4 Kack Zassian

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 12:06 PM

I think the major benefit is look at the teams in the top 5

Columbus
Edmonton
Montreal
Islanders
Toronto

3 of the top 5 teams badly need goaltending....so its not outrageous to think that one of these picks will be on the table.

There is also Tampa at #7 overall.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see a Schenn + 1st Rounder, or Connolly + 1st rounder type trade for Vancouver.

#5 bossram

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 01:29 PM

I think Schneider is easily worth a top 5 pick plus a late 1st rounder. It is very hard to develop goaltenders, and anyone who has watched Cory play can easily say he has the talent to be a stater in the NHL. No doubt.

I would argue he's easily better than half the starters in the NHL, and his stats over two seasons can attest to that.

I think a deal with Tampa makes the most sense and they have the assets to pull it off

To TB
Cory Schneider
Keith Ballard

To VAN
TB 1st 2012 or Brett Connolly
DET 1st 2012
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#6 palindrom

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 08:50 PM

The way I see it, Cory is worth a top 5 pick if not because of talent level, then because of the current NHL market which is not exactly abundant of top notch starters right now.


If a top 5 overall pick is on the table, many of the Unavailable goalie around the league could become avaible.

As a Montreal fan, i would gladly trade price for one of the 2 first overall pick.

And since Schneider is one year away from UFA there is no guarantee he would sign long term with a team like Colombus.

Unless he is signed long term, Schneider need to be considered as a 1 year rental with possibility of an extension.

Even after the current Valarmov contract expire, he will be RFA and Colorado could still trade him for a return. In my opinion Valarmov had more trade value than Schneider.
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#7 Russ

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 10:34 AM

I think the major benefit is look at the teams in the top 5

Columbus
Edmonton
Montreal
Islanders
Toronto

3 of the top 5 teams badly need goaltending....so its not outrageous to think that one of these picks will be on the table.

There is also Tampa at #7 overall.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see a Schenn + 1st Rounder, or Connolly + 1st rounder type trade for Vancouver.

No and no please. Connolly is as glass as Salo and Schenn hasn't proven he can't play consistantly, hell he had been scratched more than Keith Ballard this season and every time I watch him he has a giant blip which ends up in the back of the net almost nightly.
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#8 Xbox

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:33 AM

If we still had Hodgson then Hodgson and Schneider for the 1st overall would have made some sense.


Yeah. And if Pahlsson wasn't a UFA this year, they could of thrown him in the deal if we not had him.

Hodgson + Schneider for Pahlsson + 1st OVR

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#9 canucklax

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 11:44 AM

No and no please. Connolly is as glass as Salo and Schenn hasn't proven he can't play consistantly, hell he had been scratched more than Keith Ballard this season and every time I watch him he has a giant blip which ends up in the back of the net almost nightly.


Brett Connolly, not Tim. Agree with you on schenn

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#10 Russ

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 12:05 PM

Brett Connolly, not Tim. Agree with you on schenn

Leafs were mentioned so I assumed, stupid me! Completely zoned out when I was reading/typing that. Yes I want Brett Connolly!
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#11 Kack Zassian

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:34 PM

No and no please. Connolly is as glass as Salo and Schenn hasn't proven he can't play consistantly, hell he had been scratched more than Keith Ballard this season and every time I watch him he has a giant blip which ends up in the back of the net almost nightly.


Definitely not Tim Connolly, its Brett Connolly (6th overall in 2010, and WJ star).

Even if Schenn has shown to be inconsistent, who on that Toronto roster has been a consistent player?
Its a chance to get a 22 year old big d-man who has top pairing potential. This is as well as a top pick.

#12 Mike Vanderhoek

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:58 PM

Unless Vancouver could obtain Columbus' first overall pick then I would not be moving Schneider.
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#13 erkayloomeh

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:22 PM

I think Toronto does not have enough patience for there success. They rush young players into things i think. If we were to trade schnieds to toronto I would like to see gustafson coming back this way as part of the deal. we could start over with him and turn him into a spectacular goalie. I think the same way about Luke schenn
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#14 Kack Zassian

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:25 PM

I think Toronto does not have enough patience for there success. They rush young players into things i think. If we were to trade schnieds to toronto I would like to see gustafson coming back this way as part of the deal. we could start over with him and turn him into a spectacular goalie. I think the same way about Luke schenn


Monster is 28 FYI.

I think Luke Schenn would be able to develop properly in Vancouver. He was brought in and toughted to be a Norris winner and he played well as a rookie.

From there it just seems like his development was a bit rushed, and I think Van could turn him into a top pairing d-man.

#15 palindrom

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 04:58 PM

Yeah. And if Pahlsson wasn't a UFA this year, they could of thrown him in the deal if we not had him.

Hodgson + Schneider for Pahlsson + 1st OVR


But if Linden was still with Vancouver and was asked by Colombus to make this deal happen.

Then it would be a no deal, Linden mean too much to the Vancouver Franchise.

Hodgson + Schneider + Linden for Pahlsson + 1st Overall.......No deal!

Edited by palindrom, 24 March 2012 - 04:58 PM.

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#16 qwijibo

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 05:04 PM

If a top 5 overall pick is on the table, many of the Unavailable goalie around the league could become avaible.

As a Montreal fan, i would gladly trade price for one of the 2 first overall pick.

And since Schneider is one year away from UFA there is no guarantee he would sign long term with a team like Colombus.

Unless he is signed long term, Schneider need to be considered as a 1 year rental with possibility of an extension.

Even after the current Valarmov contract expire, he will be RFA and Colorado could still trade him for a return. In my opinion Valarmov had more trade value than Schneider.


Then you're an idiot and you would be in the VAST minority. No way in hell would I trade Price for a top 2 pick

#17 palindrom

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:05 PM

Then you're an idiot and you would be in the VAST minority. No way in hell would I trade Price for a top 2 pick


Well, Gauthier was in the vast minority to choose to trade Halak and keep Price.

Can we make a deal, we bump this thread in 8 years from now, once the top 2 pick reach their peak and we reevaluate this proposition?

If i base myself on the last 5 years draft, more often than not trading Price for one of the 2 overall sound a good deal.
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#18 Greene02

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 07:52 AM

If we still had Hodgson then Hodgson and Schneider for the 1st overall would have made some sense.

I can guarantee you that no team would trade P. Kane, Stamkos, Tavares, Hall, RNH or Yakupov for that package. That also wouldn't get you Doughty, Hedman, Seguin, Landeskog, Grigorenko...or Pietroangelo, Duchene, E. Kane, Johansen, Gudbranson, Huberdeau or Larsson.

Schneider does not equal a top 5 pick. Maybe 8-12th oveall but not top 5. There is more than just a few draft positions separating "top 5" players from "top 10" players.

Edited by Greene02, 25 March 2012 - 07:53 AM.


#19 Sandro17

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

I can guarantee you that no team would trade P. Kane, Stamkos, Tavares, Hall, RNH or Yakupov for that package. That also wouldn't get you Doughty, Hedman, Seguin, Landeskog, Grigorenko...or Pietroangelo, Duchene, E. Kane, Johansen, Gudbranson, Huberdeau or Larsson.

Schneider does not equal a top 5 pick. Maybe 8-12th oveall but not top 5. There is more than just a few draft positions separating "top 5" players from "top 10" players.


Keep in mind that Hodgson was scouted to be a top 5 pick.

#20 hudson bay rules

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:29 AM

Yeah, but how much for Luongo???
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#21 CB007

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:49 AM

I can guarantee you that no team would trade P. Kane, Stamkos, Tavares, Hall, RNH or Yakupov for that package. That also wouldn't get you Doughty, Hedman, Seguin, Landeskog, Grigorenko...or Pietroangelo, Duchene, E. Kane, Johansen, Gudbranson, Huberdeau or Larsson.

Schneider does not equal a top 5 pick. Maybe 8-12th oveall but not top 5. There is more than just a few draft positions separating "top 5" players from "top 10" players.


I would not settle for anything less than a Hedman or a Jackson. We can add more to the package but we should not give Schneider away without getting a top tier player in return.
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#22 Greene02

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:03 AM

Keep in mind that Hodgson was scouted to be a top 5 pick.

What does that matter? How much would you be willing to give for Filatov these days?

..and for the record, I don't think many credible agencies had Hodgson going top 5. If I remember correctly, it was "Stamkos and then a bunch of defensemen".

#23 Zoolander

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:55 AM

If we are gonna trade Schneids, I for one don't want straight up draft picks. You have to throw a player in there that has already proven himself in the NHL.

To Van: Teddy Purcell
1st round pick

To TB:Cory Schneider
Keith Ballard

With the 1st round pick, I would draft a quality defensemen prospect. Something we haven't had since Luc Bourdon (r.i.p)
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#24 Spectacular

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 11:59 AM

Many fans of other teams don't see Schneider like we do. We feel Schneider has proven a lot, not simply by what his stats show but also the way he plays the game. Always square to the shooter, doesn't panic, and has the athleticism to make desperation saves just in case. Other fans simply see Schneider as a potentially another Raycroft or as a product of the Canucks' defensive system even though it's fallen to crap lately. What I find funny is that ever since the all star break, where our defense has been questionable, our goaltenders have really saved this teams ass.

In my opinion, he's worth a top 5 pick and maybe more. The man just has a huge pedigree.

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#25 Greene02

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:41 PM

Many fans of other teams don't see Schneider like we do. We feel Schneider has proven a lot, not simply by what his stats show but also the way he plays the game. Always square to the shooter, doesn't panic, and has the athleticism to make desperation saves just in case. Other fans simply see Schneider as a potentially another Raycroft or as a product of the Canucks' defensive system even though it's fallen to crap lately. What I find funny is that ever since the all star break, where our defense has been questionable, our goaltenders have really saved this teams ass.

In my opinion, he's worth a top 5 pick and maybe more. The man just has a huge pedigree.

I think you need to keep in mind that goaltenders in general don't have a ton of value in comparison to the other positions. It isn't every year that you see a Luongo/Thomas final. You don't always need someone that good to win the cup.

Here's a list of top 5 picks over the last 6 years. Ignore team needs. Who would be available for Schneider just based on value alone?

E. Johnson- Probably
J. Staal- Probably Not
Toews- No
Backstrom- No
Kessel- No
P. Kane- No
JVR- Probably
Turris- Yes
Hickey- Definitely
Alzner- Probably
Stamkos- Not a chance
Doughty- Nope
Bogosian- Maybe
Pietrangelo- No
L. Schenn- Maybe
Tavares- No
Hedman- Probably not
Duchene- No
E. Kane- No
B. Schenn- Maybe
Hall- No
Seguin- No
Gudbranson- No
Johansen- No
Niederreiter- Maybe
RNH- No
Landeskog- No
Huberdeau- No
Larsson- No
Strome- Probably Not

30 players. I have 5 under yes, 21 under no and 4 maybe's. So while there are some players that have been drafted(mostly from 2007) that could be traded for Schneider...generally you're getting a great player in the top 5 that you wouldn't be willing to trade.

#26 Kack Zassian

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 06:55 PM

I think you need to keep in mind that goaltenders in general don't have a ton of value in comparison to the other positions. It isn't every year that you see a Luongo/Thomas final. You don't always need someone that good to win the cup.

Here's a list of top 5 picks over the last 6 years. Ignore team needs. Who would be available for Schneider just based on value alone?

30 players. I have 5 under yes, 21 under no and 4 maybe's. So while there are some players that have been drafted(mostly from 2007) that could be traded for Schneider...generally you're getting a great player in the top 5 that you wouldn't be willing to trade.


Obviuosly the bulk of top 5 picks turns out pretty good and are guys you can build around. However if you look at the bottom 5 teams (Columbus, Edmonton, Montreal, NYI and Toronto), I think Toronto is definitely a playoff team, Edmonton has a good shot at playoffs, and Tampa is definitely a playoff team (could end up with a top 5 pick).

Toronto has some star d-men, and a good forward core (yes a high end forward helps, but they still have Kadri/Ashton who are breaking into the NHL and pushing for roster spots). Goaltending was a major weakness.

Edmonton definitely lacks defensemen, but have a great young forward core. They need to focus on their back end and goaltending...but may have some interest.

Tampa has a lot of franchise players upfront (St. Louis, Lecavalier, Stamkos, Connolly in the future). While their defense may not be elite, building around Hedman/Brewer isn't so bad. Goaltending pushes this team into the playoffs.

#27 Toews

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 07:58 PM

Top 5 picks are valued very highly because they provide a team with a young player, full of potential to be something special. Now with that brimming potential you also get them at the age of 18 or in some cases 19. Assuming this player signs an ELC (which most do), you have control of them for the next 8-9 years.

Now take a look at the above list that Greene provided, what would you rather have 8-9 years of those players at significantly less than their market value or Schneider for the next 2 years. We all like to think our players hold more value than they really do but very few players are worth a top 5 pick on draft day. Scouts spend a whole year evaluating top tier talent so that the team can take the best player available, it will take a lot to convince a GM that it is worth giving up this piece.

So while I believe Schneider will garner a very nice package, it will not be for a top 5 pick. You might be able to wrestle a first round pick out of Tampa but you certainly aren't getting an asset like Brett Connolly with it. Schneider maybe a special talent but he is a goaltender and they have historically always been undervalued. I would expect a package like Varlamov got but nothing more.

#28 qwijibo

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 11:40 AM

Well, Gauthier was in the vast minority to choose to trade Halak and keep Price.

Can we make a deal, we bump this thread in 8 years from now, once the top 2 pick reach their peak and we reevaluate this proposition?

If i base myself on the last 5 years draft, more often than not trading Price for one of the 2 overall sound a good deal.


So you would trade Price , a 24 year old goalie who was picked 5th overall in 2005, was named to the nhl all rookie team in 2007 and to the All star team in 3 of the last 4 seasons for the 1st overall pick this year? WOW.

Let me ask you this since you're a "Montreal fan" .. Who would you replace Price with? Montreal doesn't have a decent prospect in the system right now. So you've given up Montreal's biggest asset and one of the few bright spots on the team. You've left a gaping hole in net with no one to fill it.

In order to fill that need Montreal would have to go outside the organization and sign a UFA (slim pickings) or trade for a goalie (so now you're giving up more significant assets to fill the need you created by trading away the teams best player)

All for a young player that will likely be very good but won't fulfill that potential for at least a couple years. In my eyes all you've done is handcuffed the franchise and ensured a few more lottery picks in the next couple seasons. Well done

#29 Pears

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 08:26 PM

I'd honestly hate to see Schneider go. But I can't wait to see the package he gets us in return. These are the players I would trade Cory for:

Forwards:

- JVR
- Teddy Purcell
- Joffery Lupul
- Rick Nash
- Jordan Eberle
- Taylor Hall
- Brayden Schenn
- Dustin Brown
- Brett Connolly
- Corey Perry
- Blake Wheeler
- Bryan Little

Defensemen:

- Zach Bogosian
- Luke Schenn
- Tyler Myers
- Victor Hedman
- Braydon Cobourn
- OEL
- Alex Pietralangelo
- Erik Karlsson
- Shea Weber

Goalies:

Any back up that is solid and provides a veteran presence.

In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

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#30 mr_long1990

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 07:12 PM

I'd hate to see Schneider go as well, but I think it's inevitable. My issue is whether we have cap space for the returns that Schneider can bring.

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