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SixOhFourCanucks

Off-Topic Members Disgust Me

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Intelligent debate about an issue that has two or more sides is something I'm entirely in favour of. Merited criticism of my arguments based on rational, logical premises is something I'm entirely in favour of. I can even handle abstract differences of opinion that are more or less arbitrary. That's all well and good. No problems with anyone just because they disagree.

But when you state something so wilfully ignorant as "gay people aren't born that way, it's a choice", then you have lost all rights to an intelligent and respectful conversation. That is not an "it's my opinion, show me the proof" topic. If you want to make a comment along those lines, that flies so far in the face of logic, reason, and anything intelligent, then the burden of proof is on YOU. Strong opinions matched with strong ignorance is something I fear more than a zombie apocalypse.

As for the OP, this is again something that baffles me. I can see that many people read the OP and thought "yeah, we SHOULD be tolerant of everyone and their opinions". Okay, I can support that sentiment as well. What I cannot, and will not support, however, is the idea that when someone is not just a-religious, but feels strongly that religion is a negative force in this world, they should just shut up about it because religious people don't want to hear that their beliefs (or a subset, or a twisted version thereof, or whatever) is, in someone's view, outright bad. People see that and go "oh, they're not being tolerant". So, in order to be tolerant, I have to think that religion is good? But what if I don't? Shut up, right?

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This post is officially an intermission. Go take a break, use the washroom, grab a snack, and then come back for part two: me ranting about how bloody hard it is to use these forums without it screwing something up!

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For the record, it's not like I sat here hitting the "post" button over and over. I actually refreshed the page, found no post, and tried again, after waiting several minutes each time (including leaving the thread altogether and then returning).

I am really, really, really sick of how dysfunctional this board is. Even during low traffic times the damn thing constantly fails to load (SQL errors or whatever the heck they're called). This has been going on for years now but seems to be even worse since the board upgrades. I understand that there is probably someone working diligently on this issue (I certainly hope that's the case, anyway), but this is beyond ridiculous now. FIX IT, please, and with all due respect.

The iPhone version is all screwed all to hell now. You can't skip to the end of a thread like you used to, you have to hit "next page" for every page. I haven't found a way around this. It makes anything more than a five-page thread too much of a chore to bother with. Sorry for the rant, but holy crap, it's not like we're fans on the Columbus board. This is the big leagues, let's have a site that reflects it.

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My 2¢

People are born gay, so discriminating against them is awful, because they can't change.

People are often born in the wrong gender's body. That's been proven. Discriminating against them is awful because everyone has a right to feel comfortable with themselves.

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To those who say people aren't born gay,and that they fake it, why?

Why would anyone subject themselves to the discrimination and humiliation that often comes with it?

Is every single one of them a masochist?

Do they get off on the hate and sadness that can often come with coming out to friends and family who don't accept them?

Do they commit suicide because of something that they're just "pretending" about?

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Maybe it's because I never thought about it before or my tiny little brain is afraid of stepping on people's toes but Glassjaw is making a lot of sense to me right now.

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Are you crazy? The argument isn't that they "fake it" -- the argument is whether or not someone is born with the "condition." I'm not saying a gay person is PRETENDING to be gay. Good lord.

When you say that gay people are simply born that way, YOU'RE the one who's saying certain gay people are "faking it" because you're discounting those who claim to be gay by choice.

You're asking the wrong questions. But if you sincerely want an answer, here's an article written by a lesbian woman for The Atlantic.

http://www.theatlant...his-way/244898/

Let me guess... she's the liar, and in complete denial about the condition she was born with?

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I think its an interesting split on the boards. There definitely is tolerance for slamming religion on this board (I know because sometimes I'm the one slamming) but a very strong sentiment towards protecting certain other groups (as mentioned in the OP).

I personally think it is impossible for everyone to respect each other's beliefs, but we can respect each other, and I think that is the key differences.

Why can't we respect each other's beliefs? What if what we belief is that the other person's belief isn't respectable? Like say, a religious person who thinks the beliefs of another religion are blasphemous and evil. In any case, we could force one person to respect the second person's beliefs, but we can't have both of them respecting each other's beliefs. I wonder if anyone knows the name for this paradox, or has a link where it is written about more articulately than what I've written, this concept has always amazed me.

That being said, we can still respect each other, so long as we are allowed to have whatever opinion (belief) we desire about other people's beliefs.

As a final note, I do not think people are born gay, I think it is a choice. I've always found it strange that people assume I am somehow anti-gay for thinking that way but to me it makes sense. As an example, naturally, I was attracted to girls who were beautiful, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that growing up I thought beautiful women were attractive but didn't feel a thing for the large or ugly women. I had to choose to see past that, and it didn't happen without some work on my part. Further to that, I doubt I was even naturally attracted to beautiful women either, I probably picked it up from magazines and TV. So some marketing execs chose for me what I should be attracted to, and then I made my own choice. Now I am fully capable of loving a women who years ago might as well have been a man to my eyes. It would be terrible for young me to have said something along the lines of "I can only date supermodels, I'm sorry but that is the way I was born." I think you always have a choice who you fall in love with, its just some people are really bad at managing their emotions and end up just going with what they are naturally attracted most to because it is easier. Taking that easy road is a choice.

So yes, being gay is a choice in my mind, I just don't care which way they choose to go.

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If she's still sexually attracted to guys, she's bisexual, not homosexual. There's a pretty big difference between being a bisexual and choosing one gender over the other and only being attracted to your own gender.

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Maybe it's because I never thought about it before or my tiny little brain is afraid of stepping on people's toes but Glassjaw is making a lot of sense to me right now.

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So that settles that. She isn't gay, and she's a faker/liar. Gotcha.

So what you're saying is that a gay/lesbian person can't experience any sexual attraction to a member of the opposite sex, by the way? Or, as the woman in the article says, "notice an attractive man on tv or on the streets"

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Beautiful strawman. No, she just has a different definition of "gay" than the commonly accepted one (i.e. being only attracted to one's own sex).

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lol, the commonly accepted definition of gay is "being only attracted to one's own sex"?

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Beautiful strawman. No, she just has a different definition of "gay" than the commonly accepted one (i.e. being only attracted to one's own sex).

Yes, I am saying that. It's the same principle that if I experienced sexual attraction to other guys as well as girls, I wouldn't be heterosexual.

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did the people attracted to only their own sex choose to be that way?

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Is a closeted homosexual who lives with his wife and kids, despite suffering extreme inner turmoil and sexual attraction to his openly gay co-worker not actually gay, then? Because he expressed physical attraction to a female, at some point in his life, means he can't claim to be gay by the apparent common definition?

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If he had genuine sexual attraction to his wife and the relationship wasn't an attempt to hide his true sexuality, then he'd be bisexual. If not, then he's homosexual.

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However, I do know that the summation of your life and experiences have lead to you to be attracted to certain aspects of females. And certain degrees of sexual activity that excite you DO stem from your life experiences (i.e. choices)

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GJ: just because some may make the "choice" to be gay, doesn't mean everyone has. I'd guess some of those people had underlying tendencies that they're just tuning into. Some may feel pushed in that direction as a result of other factors in their lives. For those who choose, it's more to do with preference than orientation but they don't necessarily represent true gay people in the sense of the word. They have "picked" a lifestyle, but not all people have that choice...they're drive from within and they can't deny that.

I know people who showed obvious signs in early elementary school, long before they even understood sexuality or would have reason to be making a choice...it was simply pre-determined for them. And there are plenty of studies heading in that direction:

http://www.scientifi...s-brains-of-gay

There are people who will latch onto things and make choices to fulfill needs in their own lives...it doesn't mean they are the only cases or represent all gay people. Some may want attention. To fill a void that wasn't being filled. To be different or breakaway from a lifestyle they're trying to escape. The gay people I know did not choose...they've known since early on and it wasn't something they felt they could change or decide against.

But we're veering off track now.

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