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The "schneider Is Unproven Argument"

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#1 Tangelos

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:08 AM

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Hello there folks, we've all heard it before, that Schneider is "unproven". Now I've spent a lot of time trying to understand this argument as it seems to be the only one the Luongo "lovers" can come up with for why Schneider shouldn't be the number 1 guy. I have concluded that this is in fact not an argument but BS that spews from those that fear change for whatever reason.

So here's what I've come up with:

According to you luongo "lovers", Schneider is as you put it, "unproven". Okay so basically what I understand is that in order to prove himself, he has to play a lot of games, but in order to play a lot of games, he has to prove himself. You see how I'm having a hard time understanding the whole "unproven" argument? It's a lose-lose situation for Schneider! He can't prove himself because we won't play him as our number 1! And we won't play him as our number 1 because he's unproven!! GO FIGURE!!!

This is some Inception crap am I right!!!

I can appreciate the fact that some of you love Luongo but I think the people who realize that this is a business and NOT a popularity contest will agree that he has (for lack of better words) "sh*t the bed" on numerous BIG occasions and that change is needed.
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#2 Tangelos

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:10 AM

Hello there folks, we've all heard it before, that Schneider is "unproven". Now I've spent a lot of time trying to understand this argument as it seems to be the only one the Luongo "lovers" can come up with for why Schneider shouldn't be the number 1 guy. I have concluded that this is in fact not an argument but BS that spews from those that fear change for whatever reason.

So here's what I've come up with:

According to you luongo "lovers", Schneider is as you put it, "unproven". Okay so basically what I understand is that in order to prove himself, he has to play a lot of games, but in order to play a lot of games, he has to prove himself. You see how I'm having a hard time understanding the whole "unproven" argument? It's a lose-lose situation for Schneider! He can't prove himself because we won't play him as our number 1! And we won't play him as our number 1 because he's unproven!! GO FIGURE!!!

This is some Inception crap am I right!!!

I can appreciate the fact that some of you love Luongo but I think the people who realize that this is a business and NOT a popularity contest will agree that he has (for lack of better words) "sh*t the bed" on numerous BIG occasions and that change is needed.
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#3 Iron_Gland

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:10 AM

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The calmness Schneids showed in his 3 playoff games is enough proof for me that he's ready for primetime. Even in OT, he played cool, calm and collected, too bad it didn't rub off on the players.
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#4 Toni Zamboni

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:12 AM

keep them both
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#5 Ṣpiderman

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:16 AM

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He's already proven. I don't know why people can't see it.
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#6 Iron_Gland

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:22 AM

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The type of people who still want to keep Luongo are the type of people who're afraid of change and like to hold on to players beyond their usefulness/age. It's the same people that wanted to keep guys like Mitchell (really, instead of Hamhuis???), Morrison, Ohlund, Linden, etc, etc, etc. even though they were past their primes or had injury issues. They become attached to these player and think it's being 'unfair' getting rid of them....this is a business. And the teams that are too slow to adapt simply fail. Schneider is younger, cheaper, better than Luongo, the choice is clear who they should go with.
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#7 Pears

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:23 AM

He's already proven. I don't know why people can't see it.

And that is what baffles me the most. If Schneider isn't 'proven', then why did AV officially make him the starter and Luongo the back up?
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#8 Provost

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:23 AM

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Your argument is just ridiculous... people are saying that there is no guarantee that Schneider is going to be an elite goaltender because he is not proven (eg. he has not done it yet). That is a fact, he has never been a #1 goalie in the NHL.

What it simply means is that you take risk if you are going to move forward with him... he could totally suck. It happens VERY regularly to highly touted young goaltenders in this league, they have a good year or two and then are never heard from again.

That isn't even arguing that we should or shouldn't keep him... it is objective fact, not a matter of opinion. You invent a ridiculous argument that no one has made (that it is somehow against the laws of physics for Schneider to "prove" himself) in order to try to make your point.

I personally believe that we should move Luongo, but mainly that is because of the value for dollar in a cap world. Luongo is still the less risky and more proven goalie, but there is a pretty reasonable likelihood that Schneider will be as good for the next couple years. With Luongo you know that you will get a top 10 goalie in the league, and most likely a top 5. With Schneider you could get a top 3 or something that turns into a mess very quickly... no one, including people who know a lot more about hockey than you can be sure what it is going to be at this point.

Schneider is also likely going to be quit a bit cheaper (1st year starters don't get $5+ million per season... sorry to break it to folks who are suggesting it). So purely on value and considering the risk factors, he could be an upgrade in the near term.

Edited by Provost, 23 April 2012 - 12:24 AM.

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#9 Buttock

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:26 AM

The type of people who still want to keep Luongo are the type of people who're afraid of change and like to hold on to players beyond their usefulness/age. It's the same people that wanted to keep guys like Mitchell (really, instead of Hamhuis???), Morrison, Ohlund, Linden, etc, etc, etc. even though they were past their primes or had injury issues. They become attached to these player and think it's being 'unfair' getting rid of them....this is a business. And the teams that are too slow to adapt simply fail. Schneider is younger, cheaper, better than Luongo, the choice is clear who they should go with.


Mitchell was a dominant presence for the Kings.
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#10 dorrcoq

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:30 AM

Mitchell was a dominant presence for the Kings.


And wasn't re-signed here because there was no guarantee he would even be able to play again. So what's your point?
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#11 Provost

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:35 AM

The type of people who still want to keep Luongo are the type of people who're afraid of change and like to hold on to players beyond their usefulness/age. It's the same people that wanted to keep guys like Mitchell (really, instead of Hamhuis???), Morrison, Ohlund, Linden, etc, etc, etc. even though they were past their primes or had injury issues. They become attached to these player and think it's being 'unfair' getting rid of them....this is a business. And the teams that are too slow to adapt simply fail. Schneider is younger, cheaper, better than Luongo, the choice is clear who they should go with.


Well the fact that Luongo is actually still playing at an elite level kind of nullifies your entire argument... as does the Mitchell argument, he was the best defenceman on either team this series.

I am someone who actually thinks Luongo should move, I just don't like people who have an inability to grasp basic objective reality and facts.
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Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!

#12 Special Ed

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:35 AM

Schneider is being held far above by many people here which is completely ridiculous. When you consider what the two have accomplished. Luongo taking us to the finals last year. And playing great this season and the first two playoff games. It wasn't because Lu was playing bad that Schneider played. It's much easier playing behind a top goalie like luongo and having the 'safety net'. Not that Schneider is a bad goalie, but when he can't fall back on Lu and he has that number 1 goalie pressure added, you simply don't know how Cory will perform. Vrs a goalie that we know how he performs in Lu.

I would be happy with either luongo or Schneider. But I think if Lu wants to stay and his NTC then Schneider has to go. And that we will get a great return for him. There is nothing wrong with keeping Lu on board. Since luongo joined Vancouver we have been nothing short of extremely fortunate to have him. Either goalie I is going to be fine. But saying Schneider is better right now as a backup with a safety net vrs a proven starter. That's just stupid.

Edited by Special Ed, 23 April 2012 - 12:38 AM.

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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#13 Iron_Gland

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:37 AM

Your argument is just ridiculous... people are saying that there is no guarantee that Schneider is going to be an elite goaltender because he is not proven (eg. he has not done it yet). That is a fact, he has never been a #1 goalie in the NHL.

What it simply means is that you take risk if you are going to move forward with him... he could totally suck. It happens VERY regularly to highly touted young goaltenders in this league, they have a good year or two and then are never heard from again.

That isn't even arguing that we should or shouldn't keep him... it is objective fact, not a matter of opinion. You invent a ridiculous argument that no one has made (that it is somehow against the laws of physics for Schneider to "prove" himself) in order to try to make your point.

I personally believe that we should move Luongo, but mainly that is because of the value for dollar in a cap world. Luongo is still the less risky and more proven goalie, but there is a pretty reasonable likelihood that Schneider will be as good for the next couple years. With Luongo you know that you will get a top 10 goalie in the league, and most likely a top 5. With Schneider you could get a top 3 or something that turns into a mess very quickly... no one, including people who know a lot more about hockey than you can be sure what it is going to be at this point.

Schneider is also likely going to be quit a bit cheaper (1st year starters don't get $5+ million per season... sorry to break it to folks who are suggesting it). So purely on value and considering the risk factors, he could be an upgrade in the near term.


He was a first round draft pick, not some free agent pickup (like Eddie Lack). He's been developed exactly how a goalie should through the AHL where he dominated (for three seasons). Now he's in the NHL and had the second best GAA and S% in the league in his second year. Beyond that, he shows poise, structure & great reflexes....he's not a Cloutier type of player that gets too rattled or emotional. No, it's not a 100% given that he'll end up staying at this level, but it's not like Luongo hasn't reached his peak...what you see is what you get, and if anything he'll lose a step as he gets older. Schneider will be a great goalie, in my opinion.
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#14 Cr8zyCanuck

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:39 AM

Luo is the new waterboy. Schneids is the new #1. Keeping them both is not insane. However shipping Luo somewhere close to his family in Floriday (tampa) is not a bad option either, if something good is coming back our way.
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#15 Special Ed

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:43 AM

Luo is the new waterboy. Schneids is the new #1. Keeping them both is not insane. However shipping Luo somewhere close to his family in Floriday (tampa) is not a bad option either, if something good is coming back our way.


It's good that you just face palmed yourself in the sig.

Saved me some time.

When Schneider gets moved we can talk again.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#16 Cr8zyCanuck

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:46 AM

Well the fact that Luongo is actually still playing at an elite level kind of nullifies your entire argument... as does the Mitchell argument, he was the best defenceman on either team this series.

I am someone who actually thinks Luongo should move, I just don't like people who have an inability to grasp basic objective reality and facts.


Top 20 elite? Or top 10? Because I see Corey as being marginally better with more upside (younger, calmer attitude, consistent).

Luongo is definitely elite, but after some of his struggles people expect the best, and they don't get that. When they do (in Corey) on a relatively consistent basis, they tend to favor the more effective of the two, even if Luongo is still "ELITE". It's not missing out on reality, it's preferring a better option to the one that is chosen more often.

We can get frustrated at haters, or we can actually OBJECTIVELY look at who is more effective NOW, and who will be more effective for this club down the road, and understand the definitive pick to be #1 is Corey. It's not rocket science, it's common sense.
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#17 Cr8zyCanuck

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

It's good that you just face palmed yourself in the sig.

Saved me some time.

When Schneider gets moved we can talk again.


Quote me on your sig. Luongo is NOT going to be #1 next year. If you want to bet $20 on it, I'm game, and I will hold you to that.
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#18 Special Ed

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:51 AM

Quote me on your sig. Luongo is NOT going to be #1 next year. If you want to bet $20 on it, I'm game, and I will hold you to that.


20 bucks?????

Hahhahaah. Ahhhhh I haven't laughed like that in a long time.

Don't sound so sure of yourself. How about 500$?
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#19 CrippledCanuck

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:56 AM

Not saying I agree or disagree but at what point did you consider Schneider proven enough to take over the #1 spot from our all time wins leader, #2 most shutouts from active goaltenders #16 overall?
If he was all of a sudden at the beginning of this year given the number 1 roll do you honestly think being thrust into it and not being eased into playing more than half a season over time he would have done better than Luongo ?

Edited by CrippledCanuck, 23 April 2012 - 01:01 AM.

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#20 Tangelos

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:57 AM

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Your argument is just ridiculous... people are saying that there is no guarantee that Schneider is going to be an elite goaltender because he is not proven (eg. he has not done it yet). That is a fact, he has never been a #1 goalie in the NHL.

What it simply means is that you take risk if you are going to move forward with him... he could totally suck. It happens VERY regularly to highly touted young goaltenders in this league, they have a good year or two and then are never heard from again.

That isn't even arguing that we should or shouldn't keep him... it is objective fact, not a matter of opinion. You invent a ridiculous argument that no one has made (that it is somehow against the laws of physics for Schneider to "prove" himself) in order to try to make your point.

I personally believe that we should move Luongo, but mainly that is because of the value for dollar in a cap world. Luongo is still the less risky and more proven goalie, but there is a pretty reasonable likelihood that Schneider will be as good for the next couple years. With Luongo you know that you will get a top 10 goalie in the league, and most likely a top 5. With Schneider you could get a top 3 or something that turns into a mess very quickly... no one, including people who know a lot more about hockey than you can be sure what it is going to be at this point.

Schneider is also likely going to be quit a bit cheaper (1st year starters don't get $5+ million per season... sorry to break it to folks who are suggesting it). So purely on value and considering the risk factors, he could be an upgrade in the near term.


That no one has made? You clearly haven't been reading the forums. While there aren't as many (as Schneider has won the hearts of most canuck faithfuls) as a year ago, there are still those that continuously say that Schneider hasn't proven anything. He is a stud in every game he's played yet people keep spewing this nonsense! These people base their "argument" on the fact that Schneider hasn't played many games. While this may be true, doesn't every goalie in the league go through this phase where they are accused of being unproven for lack of experience? Luongo, Miller, Quick all had to prove themselves as the number 1 by playing a lot of games. My problem is that the luongo "lovers" refuse to give Schneider that chance.
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#21 Cr8zyCanuck

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 12:58 AM

20 bucks?????

Hahhahaah. Ahhhhh I haven't laughed like that in a long time.

Don't sound so sure of yourself. How about 500$?


You'll be laughing come next season. 3rd and 4th lines + maybe 1 or two top players (top Dman and/or top forwards) are going to be added/subtracted before next trade deadline. Not a fire sale, but addressing many poignant problems this season. Quote me on that too. By 2013 trade deadline you will see a really different team, including who starts in net, compared to the 2011/2012 season.
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#22 jlashta

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:00 AM

Top 20 elite? Or top 10? Because I see Corey as being marginally better with more upside (younger, calmer attitude, consistent).

Luongo is definitely elite, but after some of his struggles people expect the best, and they don't get that. When they do (in Corey) on a relatively consistent basis, they tend to favor the more effective of the two, even if Luongo is still "ELITE". It's not missing out on reality, it's preferring a better option to the one that is chosen more often.

We can get frustrated at haters, or we can actually OBJECTIVELY look at who is more effective NOW, and who will be more effective for this club down the road, and understand the definitive pick to be #1 is Corey. It's not rocket science, it's common sense.


I'm so fed up with these dumb arguments. Schneider is a great goalie and has played well with the Canucks, but what a previous poster said about him being unproven is right--he is unproven in Vancouver. To really prove himself, he has to be the #1 goalie and survive the media scrutiny. As it stands now, media coverage and "fan" reaction is always negative towards Luongo. Luongo wins a game but lets in a bad goal: "Schneider would have had a shutout." Luongo loses a game: "Schneider would have won that." Schneider wins a game: "Luongo sucks; Schneider should be our #1." Schneider loses a game: "Luongo wouldn't have done any better." Until Schneider has to deal with that kind of media attention and those kinds of fans, he remains mentally unproven in Vancouver because, let's face it, every goalie in a hockey-mad city like Vancouver will face that kind of scrutiny. It remains to be seen if he take the criticism day-in and day-out.

Luongo signed a fat, long term contract because the organization trusted (and trusts) him as the starting goalie. Maybe they are having second doubts, or maybe they were trying to increase Schneiders trade value, or maybe they were doing something else. These stupid Luongo hate threads need to stop.
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#23 Special Ed

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:05 AM

According to you luongo "lovers", Schneider is as you put it, "unproven". Okay so basically what I understand is that in order to prove himself, he has to play a lot of games, but in order to play a lot of games, he has to prove himself. You see how I'm having a hard time understanding the whole "unproven" argument?


Schneider is proven as a starter in the NHL. But fans saying Schneider is better than luongo is ridiculous. Schneider has had it really good playing behind Lu and hasn't been truly tested as a number 1. And now people want to ditch a goalie that has gotten us so far for someone who 'maybe' will be a good starter. That's just a stupid move. Take a risk vrs sure thing. I go with the sure thing. That's a goalie who takes us into the playoffs every year and gives us a chance. You have to consider what a disaster it would be if Lu leaves and Schneider doesn't pan out well. Then what?
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#24 Tangelos

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:08 AM

Schneider is being held far above by many people here which is completely ridiculous. When you consider what the two have accomplished. Luongo taking us to the finals last year. And playing great this season and the first two playoff games. It wasn't because Lu was playing bad that Schneider played. It's much easier playing behind a top goalie like luongo and having the 'safety net'. Not that Schneider is a bad goalie, but when he can't fall back on Lu and he has that number 1 goalie pressure added, you simply don't know how Cory will perform. Vrs a goalie that we know how he performs in Lu.

I would be happy with either luongo or Schneider. But I think if Lu wants to stay and his NTC then Schneider has to go. And that we will get a great return for him. There is nothing wrong with keeping Lu on board. Since luongo joined Vancouver we have been nothing short of extremely fortunate to have him. Either goalie I is going to be fine. But saying Schneider is better right now as a backup with a safety net vrs a proven starter. That's just stupid.


Yea we don't know if Schneider can be a number 1, but that is the case with every up and coming goalie. Florida didn't know how Luongo would perform. Buffalo didn't know how Miller would perform. LA didn't know how Quick would perform. New York didn't know how Lundqvist would perform. The simple fact that we "don't know" or are "unsure" doesn't mean we shouldn't give Schneider the opportunity to be the guy. It seems to me like fear is the reason Luongo "lovers" want Luongo to stay because you know what you have in him (a good goalie who cracks under pressure). You fear change even though Schneider (just based on what we've seen) can be (and maybe already is) 10 times the goalie luongo is and ever will be.
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#25 'NucKô

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:08 AM

i dont think he can still be considered unproven... did everything he could to steal us a game but our O just couldn't capitalize on their chances
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#26 Special Ed

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:14 AM

Yea we don't know if Schneider can be a number 1


Ah so now you agree? Good. All the goalies you mentioned never played behind a top goalie their first year. Why should we take a chance when luongo has been doing fine for us. And that is why Schneider will be moved, not luongo.
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#27 Tangelos

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 01:32 AM

Ah so now you agree? Good. All the goalies you mentioned never played behind a top goalie their first year. Why should we take a chance when luongo has been doing fine for us. And that is why Schneider will be moved, not luongo.


Well that's the thing I wouldn't have brought this up if I was satisfied with Luongo's performance. I am Unsatisfied and clearly MANY agree with me! Luongo flops like a fish out of water and Schneider is calm, cool and collected. I mean I can't remember the last time Schneider had a bad game. You would think that his plethora of stellar performances would warrant him the opportunity of obtaining the starting position but NOOOOOOO you guys are tooooo scared!! What does Schneider have to do!!! He deserves the chance at being the starter!

Honestly you remind me of one of those guys with the b*tchy girlfriends who stays with her because you're afraid you might not find someone better.
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#28 babybulls211

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:01 AM

As jilashta said, Schneider has not faced the media attention just yet. Vancouver is known as a goalie graveyard. Many goalies driven out of town because of the media scrutiny. Until Schneider can perform under that kind of fans and media attention, I still say Schneider is "unproven".

Also, you want a goalie who's rushed to the starting job? STEVE MASON. He just sucked after his rookie season.

Edited by babybulls211, 23 April 2012 - 02:03 AM.

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#29 Pouria

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:21 AM

The type of people who still want to keep Luongo are the type of people who're afraid of change and like to hold on to players beyond their usefulness/age. It's the same people that wanted to keep guys like Mitchell (really, instead of Hamhuis???), Morrison, Ohlund, Linden, etc, etc, etc. even though they were past their primes or had injury issues. They become attached to these player and think it's being 'unfair' getting rid of them....this is a business. And the teams that are too slow to adapt simply fail. Schneider is younger, cheaper, better than Luongo, the choice is clear who they should go with.


Mitchell? You mean the guy that outplayed Edler, Ballard, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Tanev and Salo in defense? Really? I'd rather had Mitchell in our lineup than Tanev or Ballard.

Edited by Pouria, 23 April 2012 - 02:22 AM.

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#30 Pouria

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Posted 23 April 2012 - 02:24 AM

As jilashta said, Schneider has not faced the media attention just yet. Vancouver is known as a goalie graveyard. Many goalies driven out of town because of the media scrutiny. Until Schneider can perform under that kind of fans and media attention, I still say Schneider is "unproven".

Also, you want a goalie who's rushed to the starting job? STEVE MASON. He just sucked after his rookie season.


Schneider is 27 man. When should he start? Once he becomes 36 years old like Thomas? Jesus are people this dumb. Schneider is as ready as he will ever be.

Edited by Pouria, 23 April 2012 - 02:24 AM.

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