[The Province] Raymond, Malhotra Might Not Fit In Picture Next Season

[Bodee]

The point to concentrate on here is not only did he bring him back right away but he remained in the team. So firstly he knew he was too good to leave out and secondly half the forwards were playing badly enough to be on the 4th line. He was one of the few with any excuse at all for any form lapse if that is why the coach dropped him

Brought him back right away? What are you talking about now? The only player that he played more than was Dale Weise. That says everything right there. The team was desperate for goals and yet Raymond plays less than everyone except than that noted and illustrious sniper Dale Weise. And if half of the forwards were playing badly enough to be on the fourth line, then why did the coach call him out in the press and demote him before all of the other forwards? Any excuse? Excuses are for losers and apologists like yourself have been using them for 2 years now and enough is enough.

He was brought back to the team immediately he was cleared to play, that's how important he was. It would have been easy to send him down to Chicago then. Are you mad, he could hardly have "called out" most of the forwards now could he? I've no idea why the coach criticised and dropped him, maybe he felt pressure from people like you in the media, who can't watch a game without the need to victimise their favourite scapegoat. Anyhow he realised after one game that Raymond was too good to leave out and he didn't drop him again. Excuses when factual are always valid provided they are remedied..........as I say I hope you don't coach, you seem to have some kind of "god complex"

That my friend is your opinion, many consider him still to be one of our best skaters, a great two way player with impressive back and forward checking............hence he gets played every night and often shines amongst all your super skaters. As I have said even if he had been one of "our lesser players" (which he wasn't) he at least has the excuse of a serious injury.

Nobody denies that he's one of our best skaters, so I don't know where you go that crap from but the problem is that he doesn't produce and he doesn't do enough things to be a useful player when he's not producing points. A great two way player? Whoever has mentioned Raymond and great player in the same sentence together must be as delusional as you. And once again, you are wrong by saying that he gets played every night as he was a healthy scratch in March. If you are a healthy scratch then you aren't playing every night now are you. Shines? Are you sure that you watch the games? Maybe you have been but not within the last 2 years if you think that Raymond has been shining. Again, excuses are for losers and he had more than enough time to come back as the team stated that they weren't going to rush him back from his injury and they didn't. And he also couldn't use the injury excuse for playing so poorly the year before now could he because even though he was hurt for a small part of that year too, he played poorly both before and after that injury.

Where do you get all this stuff from? Firstly an injury is just about the best excuse you can have especially if it has affected your conditioning and core strengthening. Secondly you constantly say he plays badly as if you are an NHL coach/scout. Your opinion my friend is worth no more than anyone else's and certainly no more than AV's and MG's who obviously admire Raymond's play. I am happy to see Raymond play as often as he is picked. On the odd occasion he is a healthy scratch, that's fine by me, the coach has to do what he thinks is best for the team on any given night. It always turns out that he is back for the next game and that's not always the case for many players. Raymond however as has been demonstrated is FAR TOO GOOD TO LEAVE OUT THE TEAM FOR LONG.

I see little of the weakness you allude to. I have already said I do not agree that he is soft in any way. I saw him take some big hits and get up and skate on, in the playoffs. I think he would benefit from 10 lbs more muscle and a good pre season but what player at 6'-0 and 185 lbs player wouldn't?

You see little of the weakness? That is because you're an apologist who has shown himself to know very little about the game. If you don't consider Raymond soft then there really is no hope for you. He's a perimeter player for a reason. He would benefit to add 10 pounds of muscle but he's had 5 or 6 years to do so and he still hasn't. Seems to me that if a player was dedicated to his craft then he would have worked on his weaknessess before now.

Now how do you know what he has / hasn't tried to do? That is your opinion based on bias, as is your whole outlook as far as Raymond is concerned. It seems to me if he WASN'T dedicated to his craft he wouldn't be turning out for the best (regular season) hockey team in the league on a regular basis. Do you even think about what you are about to write?

While I don't disagree with you on Burrows qualities I stand by my statement the this season's Burrows was not the Burrows of last season.

I heard very few people question Burrows season while I've heard 98% of this board and the coaching staff question Raymond.

98% Really? Is this piece of hyperbole sourced from some kind of personal poll you have conducted or just more bias based on the "need to get a life" whiners on here, who unlike you (I give you that credit) probably don't have the attention span to watch a whole game, more likely having it on in the background as they "beat off" on their Playstation.

Your pedantic approach does you no favours............we are talking about a FORWARD.

just for you, one more time, Raymond is fearless.............FEARLESS. If he was indeed afraid he would have been out the game years ago and indeed would not have rushed back after fracturing his vertebrae. I say again I am glad you are not a coach. It should be obvious even to you that there are different ways to be effective on a team.

Raymond probably (I don't know this for a fact) has always played in that style..........it has been effective for him in the past pre-injury. He was +4 for the season, Booth was +1, Lapierre was -3

How about you say what you mean and then the rest of us won't have to try and decipher what they think that you're trying to say?

Raymond and fearless have never been associated with one another just as Raymond and gritty or great player have never been associated with one another.

And I'm not too sure what you're talking about when you say that Raymond rushed back from his injury. When he was injured they said that he'd be out 4-6 months. He got hurt around the middle of June and he came back in early December. By my count that's 5 1/2 months. So, exactly how did he rush back if he came back within that 4-6 month time frame? And in fact he was more towards the end of the 6 month spectrum than he was to the 4 months. There are certain ways to be effective and unfortunately with Raymond he is too soft to make an impact on the game unless he's producing points. Yes he periodically kills penalties but he's not on one of the top penalty killing units so if he ever gets out there, it's usually against the other teams second unit.

All of this pre-injury crap is a joke. HE DIDN'T PLAY WELL THE YEAR BEFORE LAST YEAR EITHER!!!

As usual your bias has got the better of you.

"Stable thoraco-lumbar fractures have a very good prognosis and usually heal satisfactorily within 6 to 8 weeks with conservative treatment. However, studies have demonstrated that symptoms may last as long as 3 to 9 months before return to full function, although few individuals have adverse outcomes even with prolonged symptoms (Levine). The functional outcome for those treated nonoperatively for vertebral fracture with neurologic symptoms is reasonably good."

ACOEM's Practice Guidelines, the gold standard in effective medical treatment of occupational injuries and illnesses, are provided in this section to complement the disability duration guidelines.*

So despite the fact a player is more likely to be injured in hockey, Raymond, who had his back broken, and who you shamefully say is afraid rushed back into the team. Do you realise how biased you sound?

Please see my above comment. Raymond did NOT rush back. He fell within the 4-6 month parameters by coming back at the 5 1/2 month mark. That's a FACT! Do you realize how stupid you sound by saying that he rushed back when he obviously didn't?

A glance at the above will tell you 4-6 months was an estimate, and for an athlete in an impact sport probably an optimistic one. That estimate also takes no account of the psychological effect of taking a decision to go back into a high impact sport knowing there may be a recurrence or something worse. In light of these facts I stand by my statement. Raymond = FEARLESS.

I maintain Raymond IS a good player. You don't get paid what he is paid if you are useless. I don't accept your theory as applying to Raymond. I could quite easily say his light weight to height ratio coupled with his well above average speed and his lack of a proper conditioning IN off season was more likely to be the cause.

However as I have said I don't give a damn about his falls, I see plenty of other players falling for no apparent reason (one famous one is even featured as a poster's sig) It is what you do when you are upright that counts.

Booth makes it his life's work to seek contact and go to the net and the dirty areas and yet without the excuse of a broken back he scored ELEVEN points more than Raymond (in 55 GAMES!.......0.2pts/GAME) a player earning $1.6M more than Raymond...............and he had the advantage of being the greediest player on the team as well as not doing the defensive work of Raymond............. Your theories are bias and bs.

You could say that but then you'd just be making excuses again? Height to weight ratio? Raymond has been the same height for probably 10 years. Why is it that he hasn't made gains in his strength before now? Yes, he couldn't train like he might usually do because of his back injury but that doesn't let him off the hook for the other 4 or 5 offseasons that he's had to work on his lack of strength does it? And what he gets paid is one of the reasons why almost everyone thinks that he has to go because he hasn't been earning his keep. Those are facts.

You don't care that he falls? What a stupid comment. Exactly how are you supposed to produce when you're sitting on your ass on the ice? A famous players sig shows a player just falling by himself? Exactly who are you talking about?

Again with the injury excuse? YAWN!!! And comparing him to Booth might be one of your stupidest comments. Not sure if you know this or not but Booth has had at least two major concussions in the last few years which I'm sure has affected his ability to play at the level that he once did but I don't hear you using that as an excuse for him. And saying that Booth is selfish is pretty funny when you're defending someone who's at least as selfish in Raymond. So, it seems to me that you're the biased one.

Your acute bias means you constantly confuse reason and fact for excuse. He has been a good/ great player for the Canucks since he arrived..........that is why he is STILL HERE. I repeat, do you know anything about his training regimes or is this more biased criticism?

Almost everyone?........there's your hyperbole overload cutting in again. Even if that might have been the case, how are these people you conjure out of the ether even qualified to dispute the coaching and management of the Canucks?........I'll answer that for you. THEY ARE NOT.

They are just a bunch of sad whiners looking for a scapegoat, having moved on from Cody, Ballard and Lu to Raymond. Always shown up for their lack of any kind of objective judgement. They live in a land where they actually believe anyone who matters actually gives a damn.

You have the losers knack of picking something out of an argument and then twisting it to suit something which is not even being debated. Firstly I assumed that as Booth is back playing and indeed fighting he has no longer with symptoms from a concussion he got in March 2010 He didn't miss any pre season.

That aside, my point, as you are well aware, is based on the comparison of styles. Booth according to you is everything Raymond isn't and yet despite his style AND his greed ( Raymond pales in comparison) he only scored 11 more points in 55 games (0.2 its /game.......one point every 5 games) So I would maintain, given that Booth lacks some of Raymond's defensive upside that there is more than one style which can be effective...........oh and Booth has been paid $1.8 M for these 11 points.

Who knew he wasn't ready (that was my opinion, not the scouts or the coaches) he might have been ready but the fact is, ready or not he looked overawed.

Again, overawed and choking are VERY different things. Calling Sweatt a choker is not only unfair but it's asinine....but that's a regularity with you.

They amount to EXACTLY the same unless you are splitting atoms. An unfairness taunt from someone who lives to castigate Raymond..........who obsessively polishes his hate, bias and dislike for one of our own on a nightly basis and gives witness to it here for all to see.

I think you are well ahead of me on the insults. I also had the decency to stop when I realised you had something serious to say, (after the first post) something you were unable to do apparently. You have continued your disrespect, condescension, sheep insults and petulant behaviour all through this dialogue. Way to go big man.

Ohhhhhh, I see, because you start with the insults then now you think that you're such a decent guy becaue you've seen the error of your ways. Too funny. Don't start something that you don't have the ability to finish.

But thank you for the kind words and compliments. They are very much appreciated..... and deserved.

I guess graciousness is not one of your qualities though. But then why would I think otherwise of a man who obsesses his bias nightly on here.

He has just broken his back hardly a recipe for conditioning. His past record doesn't make him look as if he lacks dedication to me. You would have to be his coach to make the accusation you have made...............so bearing that in mind bang goes another one of your biased theories.

Again with the broken back? You're getting quite monotonous now. Yes, he did hurt his back and it did affect his offseason conditioning, but I say again, what does this have to do with the previous years where he's failed to add any muscle to his scrawny little frame? Strength has always been one of his main problems and he's never addressed it, even before his injury last year. He also has continued to be strictly a perimeter player despite the coaches best efforts to drill into him the importance of going to the tough areas of the ice. And yet he still doesn't do it. So, between that, and the lack of gains in the strength department how can you not question his dedication? You don't have to be a coach to see that. If a player is deficient in the skating department then he's told to work on that in the offseason.

I think I have covered that with the medical info and again I repeat, you know nothing about has training programmes. In fact it seems to me with your last sentence you are aiming more at the coaching/physio staff than at Raymond.

The Sedins are a perfect example of this and they made significant strides and their performance shows some of the hard work they've done. Please show me how Raymond has improved his strength over the years when he gets just as easily knocked off the puck now as what he did when he was 21? So, either Raymond has to step up his dedication and work on his glaring weaknessess or he's the stupidest human on the planet by not realizing that he needs to work on his deficiencies.

This is all based on your bias. Raymond has scored 112 points in the last 3 seasons including his vertebra compression fracture injury (what you call "hurting his back") Booth has scored 130 points in his last 3 uninjured seasons. Booth earns $4.2 and Raymond $2.6 M? I maintain Raymond compare very well even with all the "weakness" and "lack of dedication" you accuse him of.

You are delusional now, oh dear what next.

I take it we are both retired because I can keep this going for as long as you wish to reply. For someone who has no time for MR you certainly consider him important enough to continue this "war and peace" epistle. Maybe we should start a separate thread just for the two of us. I look forward to your next rant.............keep them coming and we will be into the new season before we know it

You really aren't that smart are you Bodee? I earlier told you that I was in my 30's and now you think that I'm retired? Not too sure about what happens in Scotland but 99.99% of Canadians in their 30's don't have the luxury of being retired.

I guess I've drawn the short straw by having to try and teach you some of the nuances of the game, those of which most of us already know. But I have to say, given your obvious lack of intellect, I'm not sure that i have the patience any longer or the compassion to do it and I've got better things to do than keep you occupied in between games of bingo, gin rummy and shuffleboard at the local seniors centre. But, I've always had a bit of a soft spot for those who are less fortunate and you definitely fit in that category.

On the contrary I was only being too nice to suggest you were unemployed. You seem to have so much time to give over to your Raymond bias, I couldn't believe you actually work.

There is no way I would waste so much time on such a fruitless exercise if I was 30. Man I wish I was 30 again. Take a tip from me get out there and do something, these years won't come round again. Spend the time with your family it's far more important. Do some bear hunting .........but take a camera. Thanks for all your hockey tips..........very enlightening.

One more thing, there are no short straws involved in pursuing your bias, its seems to be like a drug you just have to keep feeding the habit it seems. That said I will always be here for you. Now I hear my schnauzer getting restless for his walk in the woods so I'd better go.

Lang may yer lum reek!

[hackamore]

Reading all the negative remarks made by the media and Vancouver's vocal fan base gets very tiring when you are cheering on a player that has fallen out of favor whether it is Raymond or Lou or Ballard or Kevin or whoever the latest whipping boy is. As you read through the posts, the people defending these players usually gets less and less, not because of a change in our opinions, but because the naysayers usually come across with a lot more, for lack of a better word, aggression. As our reasons for cheering these players on does not generally change the opinions of fans or media on the other side of the fence, or vice versa, the arguments between the two sides become redundant, and it has been my experience that it is easier to just walk away.

In Raymond's defense regarding his back injury, just because the estimated time for recovery from the bone injury was six months, it does not by any stretch mean he has fully recovered from the total effect of the injury. It was reported that he might not have been able to return to playing the game at all not because of the break, but because of the nerve and soft tissue damage he suffered that apparently is not going to disappear. My hubby has a similar injury, and while not an NHL player, he was still an elite athlete at the time. It took him three years of intense rehab to regain his same level of core strength. Ten months from when his injury occurred for Raymond to be fully back to normal is unrealistic.

As far as calling him names for not putting on muscle, we as fans certainly have no insight on how much effort he has made to bulk up or how much success he has had at hitting his targets. He said he was always the smallest guy on his teams growing up, and didn't have a growth spurt until grade twelve, so does not scream a body type that would naturally pack on bulky muscle mass. Every skater I have ever met [or at the NHL level, heard about] who has speed as their main weapon, has talked about walking that fine line between maxing out their strength without sacrificing their speed. This year it is obvious he struggled more with the strength issue, and as much as a lot of of fans don't want to accept it, it has to do with the type of injury he experienced.

As far as being useless last year before breaking his back, he had bad season with multiply injuries all on his right hand or shoulder right from the start of the regular season. That being said, a lot of the talk was how his point total dropped while playing with the Selke winning Ryan Kesler for most of the regular season and playoffs. Part of the drop off could be contributed to his injuries, or Ryan's change of playing style as many have mentioned. But he was still at the top of the team with his Corsi numbers and puck possession numbers. Plus the player who's line he was on the most won the Selke. Raymond didn't assist on many of Kesler's 23 regular goals, but he was a big part of why Kesler was able to shut down so many of the oppositions top lines. It was more than just the play of Kesler doing that, it was a whole line effort. Raymond got knocked for not producing enough, or helping his line produce more, but he was not useless when he was not scoring. There is a reason while the coaching staff kept working with him that had nothing to do with silly man crushes. Raymond is an easy target because he does not play an overtly physical game that so many fans like.

This past year obviously presented multiple challenges for him. Since I have been cheering him the last four years, I would be happy to see him return to the team after a full summer of conditioning. On the other side of the coin, if he was traded I would happily cheer for him on his new team to have success. Playing with all the negativity he [or any of the other Canuck whipping boys] has had to endure this year cannot have been fun.

[Drop Em]

[Bodee]

He was brought back to the team immediately he was cleared to play, that's how important he was. It would have been easy to send him down to Chicago then. Are you mad, he could hardly have "called out" most of the forwards now could he? I've no idea why the coach criticised and dropped him, maybe he felt pressure from people like you in the media, who can't watch a game without the need to victimise their favourite scapegoat. Anyhow he realised after one game that Raymond was too good to leave out and he didn't drop him again. Excuses when factual are always valid provided they are remedied..........as I say I hope you don't coach, you seem to have some kind of "god complex"

Excuse me? He was brought back immediately because he was so important to the team? First of all, that is false. It's not like he he's un an unreplaceable cog in the wheel. Second of all, if he was so important, why would the Canucks bring him back before he was ready and risk himself potentially getting hurt further? The answer to that is, they wouldn't have and Mike Gillis said as much. The coach could have called out other players but he didn't did but it wouldn't be the first time if would have? He could have demoted other players but he didn't did he? It's apparent that even the coach has run out of patience with his lack of production and general lack of grit and fortitude which is required more in the playoffs than in the regular season. I'm sure that the coach really worries about what the media has to say and have them influence his decisions. Once again, another deperate attempt to apologize for Raymond's inpetitude. Facts are facts and the fact is that the coach called out Raymond and demoted him and that doesn't happen if you're playing well or having a positive outcome on the games.

Yes he was important to the team. MG himself said as much. However none is irreplaceable.

I'm sure even you must realise that just because you are passed to play that may not be the end of symptoms stemming from, relating to the original injury when it is a compression fracture of the vertebrae.

The coach has not run out of patience, he played in the playoffs, when others could have been promoted.

I don't need to apologise for Raymond he is being given the jersey...............despite what you moan about.

Where do you get all this stuff from? Firstly an injury is just about the best excuse you can have especially if it has affected your conditioning and core strengthening. Secondly you constantly say he plays badly as if you are an NHL coach/scout. Your opinion my friend is worth no more than anyone else's and certainly no more than AV's and MG's who obviously admire Raymond's play. I am happy to see Raymond play as often as he is picked. On the odd occasion he is a healthy scratch, that's fine by me, the coach has to do what he thinks is best for the team on any given night. It always turns out that he is back for the next game and that's not always the case for many players. Raymond however as has been demonstrated is FAR TOO GOOD TO LEAVE OUT THE TEAM FOR LONG.

Once again, excuses are for losers and I'd be willing to bet that not even Raymond would use his injury as an excuse. Now you're saying on the odd occasion that he's a healthy scratch where as in your previous post you said that he "gets played every night" and now you're backtracking again by saying that he gets scratched on the odd occasion? Which one is it because it can't be both? Actually I answered that already for you as you've never been one to use facts and accuracy in you comments. Maybe you should lay off the senile sandwiches at lunch because you're contradicting yourself in your own posts as well as showing your increased propensity for foolish ramblings like the "Raymond however as has been demonstrated is FAR TOO GOOD TO LEAVE OUT THE TEAM FOR LONG. " comments.

Raymond I'm sure would not normally give excuses however if you look at his end of season interview it was evident he did.

He gets played every night is a generalisation, how many nights out of the last 60 games did he not play. Was it one or two? According to you he should be scratched or worse every night, so who is nearer to living in the real world?

Raymond WAS and proved to be TOO GOOD TO LEAVE OUT FOR VERY LONG.

Now how do you know what he has / hasn't tried to do? That is your opinion based on bias, as is your whole outlook as far as Raymond is concerned. It seems to me if he WASN'T dedicated to his craft he wouldn't be turning out for the best (regular season) hockey team in the league on a regular basis. Do you even think about what you are about to write?

I really hope he has tried too and if he has, then like his performance on the ice he has quite obviously not fulfilled his potential or obligation. My opinion is based on seeing the same player making the same mistakes over and over again. Maybe you need to get your eyes checked if you can't see that. But if he hasn't then what does that say. He has all of the best of everything at his disposal and yet he still hasn't been able to improve his strangth, balance or performance. Not only has he not been able to improve but he's actually regressed. He is going on 27 years old and he's had the same weaknessess for the entire time he's been in the league, so I think that speaks volumes.

In my opinion it might benefit him to put on more muscle. Do I know if he has tried? No. Do you know if he has tried? No So in the absence of any real information, and rather than criticise him without the facts why not try to find out.

98% Really? Is this piece of hyperbole sourced from some kind of personal poll you have conducted or just more bias based on the "need to get a life" whiners on here, who unlike you (I give you that credit) probably don't have the attention span to watch a whole game, more likely having it on in the background as they "beat off" on their Playstation.

Ohhhh, I see, so anyone who disagrees with you, which seesm to be a very high percentage of this site, need to get a life and are whiners. I see that you've really taken to your newfound pledge to stop with the insults. I see that you've reached your sandwich quota again today.

I have no problem with people who disagree with me. I have a problem with whiners who make things up about a decent player in our team. I have a problem with lies, half truths, slander, hyperbole, and generally besmirching a players name in some misguided belief that it may effect his being traded. ( sadly,you are a poster boy for all of the above )

As usual your bias has got the better of you.

"Stable thoraco-lumbar fractures have a very good prognosis and usually heal satisfactorily within 6 to 8 weeks with conservative treatment. However, studies have demonstrated that symptoms may last as long as 3 to 9 months before return to full function, although few individuals have adverse outcomes even with prolonged symptoms (Levine). The functional outcome for those treated nonoperatively for vertebral fracture with neurologic symptoms is reasonably good."

ACOEM's Practice Guidelines, the gold standard in effective medical treatment of occupational injuries and illnesses, are provided in this section to complement the disability duration guidelines.*

Again, the TEAMS doctors and the TEAMS management are the ones who gave the timeline for his return not me. We were all told that he would be back playing within 4-6 months of his injury and I will go by that before I go by anything else as every injury and person is different. And I would think that the team knows more than what anyone else did about his particular injury which is why they gave the 4-6 month timeline. I was just proving another one of your inaccurate statements when you said that he rushed back which according to the TEAMS doctors and the TEAMS management he did not. Still hungry eh Bodee!

Interesting how you put so much stock on our medical experts estimate of when Raymond might come back but ironically you give no credence to our hockey Coaches when they show continued faith in Raymond by selecting him.

The 4-6 months was an estimate. It also takes no account of recurring symptoms and problems associated with the original injury. If Raymond had failed to come back in that time no doubt they would not have offered their resignation but instead have said each case is individual and some heal quicker than others and some take longer to gain confidence. As I said this is where Raymond proved once more how brave he is. Ballard for example did not come back when passed fit recently because he said he still didn't think he had his touch. Volpatti has taken longer than expected and Kesler has also been given an estimate for return.

None of this fits your bias though because you always want to see Raymond in the worst light. Read the post from the lady above.

A glance at the above will tell you 4-6 months was an estimate, and for an athlete in an impact sport probably an optimistic one. That estimate also takes no account of the psychological effect of taking a decision to go back into a high impact sport knowing there may be a recurrence or something worse. In light of these facts I stand by my statement. Raymond = FEARLESS.

Speaking of hyperbole, you are now saying that the team "probably" gave an optimistic estimate on his recovery time? You reek of hypocricy. Do you really think that the team would have brought him back if there was any chance of him being injured further? If you say yes, then this would cement your idiocy even further. Stand by your statements all you want because I'm sure in another couple of posts you'll contradict yourself again.

Are you serious. No doctor can give that verdict. He could have been hit again in the exact same way. Also no doctor will give an undertaking that some loss of core strength will not have an effect on a player. He will give no undertaking that there may be no side affects to such an injury. Read again the post above.

Your acute bias means you constantly confuse reason and fact for excuse. He has been a good/ great player for the Canucks since he arrived..........that is why he is STILL HERE. I repeat, do you know anything about his training regimes or is this more biased criticism?

Almost everyone?........there's your hyperbole overload cutting in again. Even if that might have been the case, how are these people you conjure out of the ether even qualified to dispute the coaching and management of the Canucks?........I'll answer that for you. THEY ARE NOT.

They are just a bunch of sad whiners looking for a scapegoat, having moved on from Cody, Ballard and Lu to Raymond. Always shown up for their lack of any kind of objective judgement. They live in a land where they actually believe anyone who matters actually gives a damn.

You have the losers knack of picking something out of an argument and then twisting it to suit something which is not even being debated. Firstly I assumed that as Booth is back playing and indeed fighting he has no longer with symptoms from a concussion he got in March 2010 He didn't miss any pre season.

That aside, my point, as you are well aware, is based on the comparison of styles. Booth according to you is everything Raymond isn't and yet despite his style AND his greed ( Raymond pales in comparison) he only scored 11 more points in 55 games (0.2 its /game.......one point every 5 games) So I would maintain, given that Booth lacks some of Raymond's defensive upside that there is more than one style which can be effective...........oh and Booth has been paid $1.8 M for these 11 points.

These aren't biased comments but yet accurate facts. You should try it sometime. I know what I see and what I see is a player who is regressing and has shown no ability to improve on his biggest weakness which is his strength and balance. IF he were really working that hard at it, then I think we would have seen some positive results by now and yet we continue to see more negative ones.

Yes almost everyone. Unlike you, I live in this city, and I listen to the local talk shows as well as read the number of people on this site who confirm his enderperformance. This is isn't hyperbole, yet fact. And the fact that the coach demoted him and threw in under the bus just confirms that.

Booth has had two serious head injuries, while Raymond has had one serious back injury. I was using the injury comparison as an example of why it shouldn't be a valid reason as to why Raymond has underperformed for the better part of the last 2 years.

Now you're saying it's a 1.8 million dollar difference when in the post before you said it was 1.6 million. Again, not exactly a big fan of accuracy or the facts or their related importance are you. But at least in that regard you've been consistent.

I care not what whiners say they are only waiting to go after their next victim. I know one thing, whiners like you shout loudest and longest in some strange, no sad belief that somehow that the club will accept their totally ignorant opinion as gospel and acquiesce to their deluded demands.

My point which you chose to ignore was Booth, who apparently is the epitome of all you hold dear and the apparent opposite of Raymond still only managed a marginally better production than Raymond and yet he is crashing the net, going to the dirty areas, hitting everything in site...............and being paid $1.6M more. Interesting.

They amount to EXACTLY the same unless you are splitting atoms. An unfairness taunt from someone who lives to castigate Raymond..........who obsessively polishes his hate, bias and dislike for one of our own on a nightly basis and gives witness to it here for all to see.

Only a complete dolt would consider a choker and someone who is overawed as being EXACTLY in the same. Maybe you can take 3 minutes out of your busy day of cribbage, naps and endless sandwiches and actually research what a choker is.

They "AMOUNT" to the same thing.............amazingly, despite your insults. They both result in poor performance and production.

I guess graciousness is not one of your qualities though. But then why would I think otherwise of a man who obsesses his bias nightly on here.

Graciousness? Again, what a hypocrite you are. You've called people whiners, accused them of having no life with no attention span while accusing them of masterbating at the same time, all because they disagree with you. What a classy and gracious old man you are.

We are talking about you here. We are NOT dealing in generalisations. Yet again you come through for me. Honestly folks I'm not writing this guys posts for him.

I think I have covered that with the medical info and again I repeat, you know nothing about has training programmes. In fact it seems to me with your last sentence you are aiming more at the coaching/physio staff than at Raymond.

I have also covered the medical thing and my comments were in response to what the team actually said and put out in the media. I did not pull the 4-6 months out of thin air, I am going by what the team said. Yes, I'm sure that the coaching and physio staff should be blamed for a 26 year old man who can't take any responsibility for his own development. Makes perfect sense.

Firstly we have indeed covered it and you seem unable to accept the complexity of the injury or that these are medical OPINIONS not dates cast in stone. They make no allowance for recurrence of symptoms, or complications or indeed effects caused by lack of core strength. I say again read the post above.

This is all based on your bias. Raymond has scored 112 points in the last 3 seasons including his vertebra compression fracture injury (what you call "hurting his back") Booth has scored 130 points in his last 3 uninjured seasons. Booth earns $4.2 and Raymond $2.6 M? I maintain Raymond compare very well even with all the "weakness" and "lack of dedication" you accuse him of.

How is this biased? Raymond has regressed for the last 2 years. The Sedins did work at their skating and have shown that it isn't the weakness it once was. They knew what their weaknesses were and worked at it and improved and have been consistent for years now because of it. Again, these are just the facts, as much as they hurt your feelings for your boy Raymond.

So what is your point? If Raymond has a great season and has done the same training he has always done everything you are going on about is bollocks and in fact like Kes he has just had a dip in form caused by injury/nock or effect of the injury. Who can say what this year might have been production wise.

He played 60 out of a possible 87 games after a serious injury and loss of pre season scoring 21 points. Nobody, not even you knows what he may have done if he hadn't been injured.

The bias is because you have no real idea how the injury has affected him.

On the contrary I was only being too nice to suggest you were unemployed. You seem to have so much time to give over to your Raymond bias, I couldn't believe you actually work.

There is no way I would waste so much time on such a fruitless exercise if I was 30. Man I wish I was 30 again. Take a tip from me get out there and do something, these years won't come round again. Spend the time with your family it's far more important. Do some bear hunting .........but take a camera. Thanks for all your hockey tips..........very enlightening.

One more thing, there are no short straws involved in pursuing your bias, its seems to be like a drug you just have to keep feeding the habit it seems. That said I will always be here for you. Now I hear my schnauzer getting restless for his walk in the woods so I'd better go.

Lang may yer lum reek!

So, yet another contradiction. YOU wanted to report me to the mods and now you have admitted to waiting for my reply. Very interesting. I think you may be a little lonely and starving for attention

Seriously man what are you babbling about. If I had wanted to report you I would have. Probably on the grounds of failing to get a life.

I appreciate your advice but you can put it in the same place you put your diapers when you fill them up. Like I mentioned, it seems as though I've drawn the short straw trying to help educate someone who obviously spent a good portion of their life riding on the short bus.

Blah blah blah what exactly is all that gibberish about. You don't half have a high opinion of yourself. In truth you are just another classless little insulting whiner who has a "trade Raymond complex" Your LIFE is a "short straw" Your hockey knowledge is enveloped in bias and slander and your attempts at hockey education are nothing but bollocks.

See you to morrow...........when by the way Raymond will still be with us. Just thought I would cheer you up.

[Standing_Tall#37]

Hopefully we can trade may ray at the draft for a 2nd rder which would be close to his value if offersheeted(1.6mill-3.2mill). The only thing is I would want that 2nd rounder this year which paired with ours may move us high enough to draft Lukas Sutter.

[Drop Em]

[Bodee]

Yes he was important to the team. MG himself said as much. However none is irreplaceable.

I'm sure even you must realise that just because you are passed to play that may not be the end of symptoms stemming from, relating to the original injury when it is a compression fracture of the vertebrae.

The coach has not run out of patience, he played in the playoffs, when others could have been promoted.

I don't need to apologise for Raymond he is being given the jersey...............despite what you moan about.

So, Mike Gillis said that Raymond was important to the team, what else did you expect him to say, that he wasn't important to the team? You really know nothing about anything to do you? Like I said, excuses are for losers and so are those who make excuses for his poor performance and results. Yes, this means you Bodee.

Raymond I'm sure would not normally give excuses however if you look at his end of season interview it was evident he did.

He gets played every night is a generalisation, how many nights out of the last 60 games did he not play. Was it one or two? According to you he should be scratched or worse every night, so who is nearer to living in the real world?

Raymond WAS and proved to be TOO GOOD TO LEAVE OUT FOR VERY LONG.

If, as you say, Raymond himself made excuses for his poor play, then this unfortunately just proves the charachter of the individual because Kesler refused to use his injury as an excuse and actually refused to say that he was even hurt. All I heard Kesler say was that everyone would find out what was going on when the time came. Ohhhh, so you get caught yet again for being incorrect and now you're speaking in generalizations to cover your old ass. Too late, you said he gets played every night and then when it's proven you're wrong, you try and change your tune. Typical.

In my opinion it might benefit him to put on more muscle. Do I know if he has tried? No. Do you know if he has tried? No So in the absence of any real information, and rather than criticise him without the facts why not try to find out.

If Raymond has not tried to put on muscle and strength yet, then how can you not question his desire and dedication to hockey as it's apparent to everyone with at least one good eye that's what he needs to do? And if he has tried to, then it's yet another example of him failing and falling on his ass.

I have no problem with people who disagree with me. I have a problem with whiners who make things up about a decent player in our team. I have a problem with lies, half truths, slander, hyperbole, and generally besmirching a players name in some misguided belief that it may effect his being traded. ( sadly,you are a poster boy for all of the above )

Sure you have no problem with those who disagree with you. So, you think that any of us who think that Raymond has worn out his welcome in Vancouver have some misguided belief that it may affect him getting traded yet you somehow believe that the coach caved into media pressure by demoting Raymond. Talk about misguided! Is hypocrisy your middle name?

Interesting how you put so much stock on our medical experts estimate of when Raymond might come back but ironically you give no credence to our hockey Coaches when they show continued faith in Raymond by selecting him.

The 4-6 months was an estimate. It also takes no account of recurring symptoms and problems associated with the original injury. If Raymond had failed to come back in that time no doubt they would not have offered their resignation but instead have said each case is individual and some heal quicker than others and some take longer to gain confidence. As I said this is where Raymond proved once more how brave he is. Ballard for example did not come back when passed fit recently because he said he still didn't think he had his touch. Volpatti has taken longer than expected and Kesler has also been given an estimate for return.

None of this fits your bias though because you always want to see Raymond in the worst light. Read the post from the lady above

The difference between the medical experts and the coach is that the doctors have no vested interest or emotional attachment in the player or the individual involved. Where as the coach has grown close to his players over a number of years and it makes his decisions harder to make. Mike Gillis has admitted that he doesn't like trading players because of the emotional attachment that the players have with the organization. And in AV's case he has shown that he has certain pets on the team and Raymond is one of them. The key word that you said was "faith" and Raymond has not rewarded the organizations faith in him with the sort of production he's paid for. 4-6 months is what the doctors said was the average recovery time to get back to playing hockey and Rayomnd came back in 5 1/2 months. I was just once again proving you wrong when you said that he rushed back into the lineup.

And once again your wrong in regards to Volpatti. He was told when he went under the knife that he would take at least 6 months before he could think about coming back. He had his surgery sometime in December. This is apparently where I have to help you with your adding again because 6 months from December is sometime in June. So, exactly how did Volpatti take longer to come back than expected? I know how, with your math skills which are once again WRONG. Pinizotto had the same surgery 2 months prior to Volpatti and he wasn't able to come back. So, ifyou had used him as a referance then maybe you might have an argument but you didn't. So, once agian you comparisons of players is truly laughable. And like I said, you were the one who said that Raymond had rushed back and I was just proving that he didn't.

Are you serious. No doctor can give that verdict. He could have been hit again in the exact same way. Also no doctor will give an undertaking that some loss of core strength will not have an effect on a player. He will give no undertaking that there may be no side affects to such an injury. Read again the post above.

Yes I am serious. Do you really think that the team or the teams doctors would let Raymond play again if he wasn't strong enough to play and play without risking further injury? I know that you're an idiot but I didn't think that anyone could be that stupid. Maybe you still haven't figured this out yet but this is a physical sport and because of that, there is inherant risks of injury regardless. But I know for a fact that Mike Gillis said that Raymond would not come back unless there wasn't any chance of further injury to his back. Yes, he could have been hit again in the exact same way but he also could have been hurt again during one of the many times that he fell on his ass when nobody was around him but from what Gillis said, he was at no further at risk of injury that any other player. Not sure if you realize this or not but when you do physio, you more often than not work on the injured body part so much that it is quite often stronger than before you first injured it.

I care not what whiners say they are only waiting to go after their next victim. I know one thing, whiners like you shout loudest and longest in some strange, no sad belief that somehow that the club will accept their totally ignorant opinion as gospel and acquiesce to their deluded demands.

My point which you chose to ignore was Booth, who apparently is the epitome of all you hold dear and the apparent opposite of Raymond still only managed a marginally better production than Raymond and yet he is crashing the net, going to the dirty areas, hitting everything in site...............and being paid $1.6M more. Interesting.

Again, you think that the we're hoping that the club will listen to the fans demands and yet you think it's ok to think that the coach has caved to the medias demands. I know that the management aren't reading these board or that they are affecting their decision making just as I know that the coach isn't caving to media pressure to play certain players or make certain coaching decisions...but you are uneducated and delusional enough to think so. Again with the Booth comparisons? All I see in any of your posts is you comparing Raymond to Booth. First of all, is it 1.8 or 1.6 million, have you figured that out yet? Secondly, I'm not a huge fan of Booth or the way he played either and please show me where I said that he was hitting everything in sight. Booth was overpaid for his production too but I'm not going to make apologies for it like you do with Raymond.

They "AMOUNT" to the same thing.............amazingly, despite your insults. They both result in poor performance and production.

HAHA, amount and exact are now, by your definition, the same thing just as overawed and choker are? Please stop, you're embarrassing yourself and I'm almost starting to feel sorry for you.

We are talking about you here. We are NOT dealing in generalisations. Yet again you come through for me. Honestly folks I'm not writing this guys posts for him.

Oh, so now you're talking about me specifically and not in generalizations? Well, then how do you explain this quote from you then "98% Really? Is this piece of hyperbole sourced from some kind of personal poll you have conducted or just more bias based on the "need to get a life" whiners on here, who unlike you (I give you that credit) probably don't have the attention span to watch a whole game, more likely having it on in the background as they "beat off" on their Playstation. Have another senile sandwich Bodee.

Firstly we have indeed covered it and you seem unable to accept the complexity of the injury or that these are medical OPINIONS not dates cast in stone. They make no allowance for recurrence of symptoms, or complications or indeed effects caused by lack of core strength. I say again read the post above.

I realize that those dates were given by professionals who actually know what they're talking about and have based their findings from years and years of experience. Again, you said that he came rushed back early and I just proved to you that that wasn't the case and that you were once agin WRONG WRONG WRONG.

So what is your point? If Raymond has a great season and has done the same training he has always done everything you are going on about is bollocks and in fact like Kes he has just had a dip in form caused by injury/nock or effect of the injury. Who can say what this year might have been production wise.

He played 60 out of a possible 87 games after a serious injury and loss of pre season scoring 21 points. Nobody, not even you knows what he may have done if he hadn't been injured.

The bias is because you have no real idea how the injury has affected him.

"IF Raymond has a great season...bla blah blah". Well, IF my Aunt had nuts then she'd be my uncle now wouldn't she? I deal in facts and the fact is that Raymond has underperformed for 2 straight years and the only real decent year he had was when he was up for a nes contract. He got the big contract and then failed to perform up to it since he got it. Those are the facts. Try it sometime.

Seriously man what are you babbling about. If I had wanted to report you I would have. Probably on the grounds of failing to get a life

Bodee, on 21 April 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

On the contrary D.J. has proved himself to be a total idiot. You seem keen to align yourself with him, more fool you. A relative or friend perhaps?........who knows.

Are the Canucks and the NHL the only hockey played in the world. Are you really so stupid that while displaying your ignorance you use that same ignorance to justify implying that I'm a liar.

44 posts and not a topic among them since 2009

Like D.J. your cowardly friend you disclose nothing about yourself yet you choose to attack me on information I have given freely and honestly..........how ironic.

"You would be the first person in the history of the internet who tried to make themselves look less intelligent, experienced or informed. Most people try to embellish their talents, or experience or knowledge and yet you went in the opposite direction?.......or is it more the fact that D.J caught you in red handed and you're now trying to cover for yourself? Just curious?"

I can't make out whether this is a back handed compliment or just what it seems, an idiots attempt at a personal attack on another poster. I mean really ("D.J caught you in red handed") do you read this tripe over before you post it?

I am seriously beginning to wonder if I am encountering a couple of cyber stalkers here. We are meant to be discussing Mason Raymond but Ball and now you seem to be more interested in me personally than keeping to the argument.

As I say I don't normally go down the "report' route but it was all getting a bit silly even before you jumped in with your allegations, now I am tired of humouring you both.

So let us be clear I will refrain from referring to either of you in any post (although I only responded to your abuse) and you will do the same.

If you do not I will report it.

First of all, you might be someones Dad but you're not mine. I'm a guy in my 30's so telling me what to do will prove very fruitless for you. I will post on whatever topic I want until I get told otherwise. And that person telling me will have to be a mod as it will definitely not be from you telling me. You can be as clear as you want, but I don't take direction from you and could care less if you decide to refer to me in any of your posts or not. Bold case all you want, it doesn't make any difference to me.

As for being a cyber stalker, please don't flatter yourself! Just because someone has a differing opinion and decides to call you out on your inaccuracies, contradictions and general lack of knowledge, does not make them a stalker. This is a forum for people to discuss their opinions, so if you somehow think that because people respond to your biased opinions, does not mean they are stalkers.

If you don't want people making comments or responding to your posts, I think you might be the using the wrong type of forum for you to get across your thoughts.

If you want to know, and I really don't care if you do or not, I wouldn't know DJ if I passed him on the street. Just because I agreed with his posts while finding them both funny and accurate does not mean that we are friends. I also really commend the fact that you've been following "ice hockey" for the past 20 years. But by you having to explain to us that it was "ice hockey" that you've been following actually makes me believe that it might be "field hockey" that you've been following instead. And if not, then following "ice hockey" in Scotland is similar to a Canadian following "ice hockey" at the bantam AA level here. Following the Canucks from thousands of miles away doesn't mean that you can see what those of us who actually go to the games live can see. But I'm sure the Canucks as a team appreciate your support.

Since when does the amount of posts you have, have anything to do with what you know about what's going on? Have you seen some of the people who post on here? They'll post one and two word respsonses just because they can. Sorry, but I'd rather offer a response that's thought out rather than to just add to my post count.

Report route? You sound like a child in the playground who doesn't get what he wants, so he goes home crying to his Mommy to tell on the other kids. Have you ever heard of being a snitch? If you haven't, let me explain it to you, it's a term used for a person who cries, bitches and moans to someone else. Also known as a rat, a fink or a tattletale. Let me tell you something else, NOBODY likes a snitch. I'm not sure how things work in Scotland but this isn't how we deal with things as men in Canada by crying and ratting to others. But if you do decide to be a little snitch, I'm sure that the mods will also be interested to see that you've resorted to calling people names like moron and idiot. Even though I can name call with the best of them, I have decided not to resort to your level in this case. So, be careful what you ask for as you aren't exactly Mr. Innocent..... Bodee!

Edited by Drop Em, 25 April 2012 - 12:36 AM.

The above post was made by you, unless of course someone hacked into your account, and it was then was followed by my response. I'm now starting to doubt whether you're not actually a complete idiot but actually have some sort of medical/mental condition and that's why you contradict yourself so often, you can't get your facts right, you can't add and you can't remember half of the things that you say like your comments above. I say this in all seriousness as this condition is not actually a laughing matter but have you ever been checked for dimentia because that's the only thing that I can think of as a reason why you can't remember threatening to report me. Considering your advanced age, this could make sense. Despite our differences I hope this isn't the case and I actually hope it;s because you don't have two brain cells working together.

Blah blah blah what exactly is all that gibberish about. You don't half have a high opinion of yourself. In truth you are just another classless little insulting whiner who has a "trade Raymond complex" Your LIFE is a "short straw" Your hockey knowledge is enveloped in bias and slander and your attempts at hockey education are nothing but bollocks.

See you to morrow...........when by the way Raymond will still be with us. Just thought I would cheer you up.

Trade Raymond complex? I don't care if they trade him, loan him to a figure skater who needs a new partner or send him to play in the Scottish elite league so that your little man crash is a little closer for you to stalk, as long as he doesn't play with the Nucks next year then I'll be happy.

Now run along sheep shagger......that is if you can remember which direction you're supposed to be heading.