RGC Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Making one sided biased against Luongo is no different then me being biased towards him. What I'm trying to convince people is that it's not simply a clear cut case of taking the younger because we think he's better. People are acting like trading him has no chance of having serious ramifications for the future of the club. Luongo was actually nominated for the Vezina last season, so it's actually only been a year. But of course, it's because we had good defence so he doesn't get any of the credit... It's not about being a Luongo fan, it's about being a Canucks fan and hoping that we make the right decision here. I see alot of arrogant people saying that we should go with Schneider, like they actually know what the future holds. As it stands right now, Schneider is not signed. Maybe he doesn't even wanna sign here, but if he does it could only be for a few seasons and then he bolts as a UFA. Then what? Then we're back to being a team without a goalie, and missing the playoffs every year because our D actually isn't as good as people thought it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suolucidir Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 It's because Luongo is a choke artist. He plays good one game and then screws you over the next. Game 1 and 2 of the finals he plays well, game 3 and 4 he screws the game. Game 5 he plays well, but in game 6 he blows the teams chance to win a cup. Game 7 is a write of as the whole team sucked. And yes, I still hold a grudge even after all this time. The guy came pretty close to blowing the gold medal game too from what I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Spades Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 I say go with Schnieds cause I think long term he gives you a better chance, he's a more technical goalie as well which means simply.... when Luongo is feeling the puck well he is unbeatable (in fairness most goalies can claim that in the NHL, when they are feeling hot they are typically pretty tough to beat) Schnieder can definatly claim the same thing, when he's feeling the puck. Where I feel the difference is, is when Luongo is missing some confidence beacuse he is a very... "by feel" goalie, meaning he's not as technical as other goalies, if he's not feeling it he really struggles, I feel Corey can get away with "not feeling the puck" a bit easiar beacuse he can simply fall back on his techniques. All that being said I just think getting rid of Lu's contract would be a big help for the team, I feel we can sign Corey for a lot less and he still offers very simliar oppratunities for the team as far as skill goes. And then sadly there is the fan factor/media factor, while I don't think it's fair, Luongo has definatly been... given a rough ride from our many ungreatful fans (more so in the media than the fan base I should add) and I think that has worn on him and has done so for a few years... always having to answer stupid questions. Basically I just think Luongo needs a change to help himself, and I think the team can do alright with CS so it just makes sense to try and move Lu. I'll miss him I think he's a great goalie and on a new team I feel very confident he'll continue to thrive and have another great season (or 3-4-5 great seasons) before age starts to creep in on him. If he stays on the Nucks team it could be a lot more difficult for him to do so. Time will only tell, we'll have to see where he winds up for starters. As far as the original OP's question in his thread.... I'm not one that wants to run Luongo out of town, I think he's been great for this city and if he happens to stay I won't be upset by that, as CS clearly offers a lot more return value than Luongo will, but either or works for me. We have two great goalies we are very fortunate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry_Wilkins Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 As it stands right now, Schneider is not signed. Maybe he doesn't even wanna sign here, but if he does it could only be for a few seasons and then he bolts as a UFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underachieving Hero of CDC Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Now yes, I've been a Luongo fan ever since he became a Canuck. Sure, I've watched him carry this team in times of need and let them down in big situations as well, but all things aside, I cannot understand exactly why people want to run this guy out of town and go with Schneider when I consider the following points: Was it because Schneider had a good season and looked great? He started just 28 regular season games and has 38 career wins to his name over 4 seasons, with only 2 really significant seasons as a backup. This guy is still a kid, no matter how many people say he's ready to become a starter. The biggest reason his numbers are so great is not because he's playing on a good team or because the team played better in front of him than Luongo, but because he played in spurts. Schneider would only ever play once or twice in a row which is much easier on a goalie mentally and physically. The only time he played a long string of games (7 consecutive when Luongo was injured), his play really deteriorated until he finally cracked on the 7th game, letting in 3 goals on around 15 shots in a period and they were all brutal goals. The biggest reason his stats looked so great was because of the few, scattered starts. Was it because Schneider excelled in the playoffs? Because I sincerely hope it wasn't. Schneider won just 1 playoff game and while he played well, these were nothing games for the Canucks. In all do respect to Vancouver, falling down 3-0 in the playoffs is essentially the end of any team's season so for me those final 2 starts Schneider played were nothing games. More importantly, the only reason Schneider was thrown in instead of Luongo was because of the team's disgusting play in front of him, so the playoffs should be completely ignored. If anything, Schneider was the one who ended up letting our team down, losing a goalie duel in the 3rd crucial game and a bad series-ending goal in whereas Luongo never got a chance to win a truly important, season-defining game for the Canucks which is unfair considering what he did last season. Is it because people think Schneider is ready to be a full-time NHL starting goalie? Like I said, Cory Schneider has less than 60 games of NHL experience over 4 years of being in the league, and has only really had 2 significant seasons. He is still a kid and has no idea how to handle a full schedule of games the way Luongo, a true professional, does. Of course the only way for him to learn is by trying him out in a full season and see how he goes, but I for one am not willing to risk our team's cup chances and our core's prime years on a coin toss to see whether or not this guy can handle the pressure of a full NHL season, because there's simply no backup plan there in case Schneider doesn't perform well, in which case our season and Cup hopes are down the drain for the next few years. For those comparing Schneider to Quick or Rinne, these guys stepped right into the NHL spotlight with a few 40-60 game seasons before they really started to play well, which is plenty of experience compared to Schneider's 2 20-game seasons. Is it because people think Eddie Lack is ready to be a full-time NHL backup goalie? Even if Schneider is going to be our starter, he will have to play less than 60 games to be even the slightest bit successful. We all know of the eerie stat going around that not many goalies in the last decade have won a Cup after playing more than 60 games in the regular season and our coaches and management are fully aware of this as well, getting Luongo's games down as much as possible to better ready him for the playoffs. So if Schneider is to play 60 games, we need a backup trustworthy and capable of at least 20-25 games, and sadly that is not Eddie Lack. This guy has no NHL experience whatsoever so we have no idea how he'll handle the jump from the AHL to NHL, and worst of all he has very limited AHL experience - just 2 seasons of limited games where he hasn't fared remarkably well in terms of wins (great numbers and has shined at times, but consistency may be an issue). All I ask from a backup playing 20-25 games is to have a record of at least 0.500 and I fear Lack may not be quite ready to win 15 NHL games in a season. Was it because Luongo had a few collapses in the playoffs last season? Just looking at the NHL this season, no goalie is ever perfect or plays his best over the entirety of his career, but we are lucky enough to have one of the most consistent and successful goalies in NHL history in Luongo. When you step back and look at his body of work, Luongo will go down in history as one of the best, and quite frankly Cory Schneider will be lucky if his career comes close to that of Luongo's. We have no idea how Schneider will perform in the playoffs or whether he will be able to win those clutch games like the big games Luongo has won in his career (game 7 against Chicago, Gold medal game, his Finals wins) and so I don't understand why we would risk finding out whether Schneider will be good enough when we have Luongo who we know IS good enough and who will come through in those big moments, time and time again. Is it because people think Luongo is past his prime? Firstly I'd like to say that the best way to win a Cup is by having a great core that works together well and hits their prime at the same time. We have the Sedins, Kesler, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Edler and Luongo as our core - all of whom are in or very close to their true prime right now. Last year was most possibly the peak of all of our core (as well as a few others), but that doesn't mean their window of opportunity is closed, because all of these guys are still capable of playing well. The problem with opting for Schneider over Luongo is that Schneider is far from his prime, especially as a young, inexperienced goalie. He's only had 2 proper backup seasons in the NHL and not many goalies hit their prime before their 5th season (goalies take much longer to develop), so during these years we would basically be wasting away the prime years of the rest of our core until Schneider finally develops into the best goalie he can be by which time we won't have much of a team in front of him. If we trade Luongo away, we might as well shuffle up our entire core to better suit Cory because it is almost impossible that he will hit his prime within the next one or two seasons after having played very little hockey. Is it because people think we can move Luongo easier? Yes Luongo's long-term contract doesn't look appealing, but a 5.3 million dollar cap hit is very flexible for a star goaltender these days and many teams are looking for not just a young goalie, but a bonified star who can help them now. Just look at Philadelphia last season, they traded away quite a bit of future talent for a proven star in Bryzgalov and now look where they are. Quite frankly, more teams are interested in a young, potential star goalie because they aren't looking at making a Cup run now (there aren't many teams left where a star goalie is the last piece in the puzzle, but the first piece in the puzzle) but later when their good prospects hit their prime and develop well, which is where we could get quite a bit more out of Cory Schneider. Struggling bottom-feeders are more willing to part with their stars now for a future star goalie in Schneider and harvest picks now to be better in the future anyway, which helps our cause as we get a good player in his prime now who can match our core better. Is it because people think Schneider is a friendlier, more likeable guy? It almost seems to me that Schneider is the one who wants more ice time and wants to be a starter, being a bit more selfish for more games whereas Luongo is willing to take one for the team and sit on the bench or even waive his no trade clause if need be to do what's best for the Canucks. If guys like Tuukka Rask can sit patiently behind an ageing Thomas for many years, then Schneider can wait longer than just 2 seasons and stop being so selfish. The last thing you want as an organization is to rush the development of your goaltender and I hate to see players go down the Hodgson-pathway like Schneider may be doing right now, but the thought of trading Kesler or the Sedins never crossed anyone's minds, despite the Sedins and Kesler struggling last playoffs and this season and Hodgson having a great rookie season. So there you have it. Be careful what you wish for CDC, I have a bad feeling that trading Luongo will be the worst move in franchise history, far worse than the Hodgson-deal seemed at first, and will cost this team their opportunity to get back at the Finals. So what's your reason for hating on Luongo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Peterson Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legend Killer Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 He deserves a fresh start, and i believe he needs one in a big way. If the rest of our team showed up last year in the final, we would've won the cup. He did have 2 shutouts didn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suolucidir Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 He deserves a fresh start, and i believe he needs one in a big way. If the rest of our team showed up last year in the final, we would've won the cup. He did have 2 shutouts didn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 On your fisrt poing about Schneider playing badly when he was given 7 starts in a row...you made that up. If you remember, Lu actually came back from his injury and AV kept on playing Schneider because he was playing so fantastic. On your second point about how the playoff games Schneider played were entirely "nothing" games...are you joking? They were the most important games of the season. I can see why you would want to ignore what happened in the playoffs for the sake of your argument but it was clear who the better goalie was. On your third point about Schneider being a coin toss...you're right, he is. But he's also played at least 4 fantastic seasons in a row now (going back to his AHL days) while hardly even having a slump. Signing Luongo to that contract was also a coin toss, and its one that we lost. On your fourth point about Lack not being a suitable backup...Its a pretty good idea to bring the kid up and give him a shot because if he can handle it, his development is going to benefit and in a few years, so are the Canucks (kinda like the Schneider situation). Lack is likely to be the backup whether Schneider or Luongo holds the #1 job next year anyway. On your fifth point about the playoffs...Schneider just posted the best sv% and GAA amongst all 22 goalies that had played in the playoffs. He was subjected to all kinds of defensive breakdowns and odd man rushes. Thats a pretty good indication of what he is capable of. Luongo's stats put him in the 17-18th bracket amongst his playoff peers (also a good indication of his abilities). On your sixth point about who is in their prime...At 26, Schneider is entering his prime, while Luongo (33) is leaving it. We don't have to wait for Schneider to improve. He just posted the second highest save percentage in NHL history amongst goalies who have played a significant number of games. On your seventh point about who is easier to move...Luongo is the harder one to trade, and theres a good reason for it. Fewer teams will be willing to go for an aging ex-superstar with a contract as imposing as Luongo's. That is also one of the reasons that MG is trying to hold on to Schneider instead of Luongo. On your eight point about Schneider being selfish...I'm totally blown away. When has he ever said anything remotely unsupportive of Luongo? when has he ever said anything to pressure AV or management into playing him? Seriously, anything at all...im very curious to know where you're getting all this from. He's been the superior goalie for 2 years now and he never said a word even though his play dictated that he should have been getting the majority of the starts. He's been beyond patient, he's payed his dues in full, and he deserves the #1 job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 too many bad memories, missed chances, baggage and too many distractions. He needs a fresh start and the team needs a new focus. Thanks Lu and all the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DIBdaQUIB Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Making one sided biased against Luongo is no different then me being biased towards him. What I'm trying to convince people is that it's not simply a clear cut case of taking the younger because we think he's better. People are acting like trading him has no chance of having serious ramifications for the future of the club. Luongo was actually nominated for the Vezina last season, so it's actually only been a year. But of course, it's because we had good defence so he doesn't get any of the credit... It's not about being a Luongo fan, it's about being a Canucks fan and hoping that we make the right decision here. I see alot of arrogant people saying that we should go with Schneider, like they actually know what the future holds. As it stands right now, Schneider is not signed. Maybe he doesn't even wanna sign here, but if he does it could only be for a few seasons and then he bolts as a UFA. Then what? Then we're back to being a team without a goalie, and missing the playoffs every year because our D actually isn't as good as people thought it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostdivision Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 "Was it because Schneider excelled in the playoffs? Because I sincerely hope it wasn't. Schneider won just 1 playoff game and while he played well, these were nothing games for the Canucks." Yes it was, he had the best numbers of the 1st round of any goalie, even quick, his numbers were way better then robertos.... Lou fans seem to be oblivious to how good schneiders numbers were.... I think were going to have trouble getting lou traded. Talking to leafs and tampa fans nobody wants him. They feel that contract and his age is a death sentence. If we get a chance to move roberto I would go for it without question. His fans overvalue him incredibly on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BuckFoston Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Sweet jesus, downundacanuck.... most of your posts are longer than my Don't you get tired...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gradin123 Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 For me it is simple. I don't necessarily want Luongo gone but the fact is going forward Cory is the better option because of his age and what will be a smaller contract for a while. The Canucks simply can't afford (cap wise) to keep both of them now that Cory is a RFA who could be the target of a offer sheet. Luongo has been a good goalie for the Canucks but I think that groin injury has effected his lateral movement and now that he is getting older his mobility and reactions are starting to slow down. To me it is clear that Luongo isn't as good a goalie now as he was when he first became a Canuck. It seems Luongo played well enough this year to get rid of the bad contract Gillis gave him and perhaps even get something in return so the Canucks have to do it. Cory proved this year that he gives the Canucks just as good a chance at winning as Luongo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kumquats Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Cause hating on Luongo is popular so everyone does it. And apparently Vancouver fans always need a scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AY89 Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Wouldn't say I want him gone...Schneider is just the better option. He's younger, quicker, better positionally, and never seems to get rattled. On the other hand, Luongo has shown that he crumbles under pressure and gets rattled easily. When Lu allows one or two bad goals early, the floodgates open. Sure, he was brilliant at home against Boston, but he never gave the team a chance to win in Boston. Pretty much blown out every game...no coincidence. It's hard for the team to be willing to score when he deflates them by letting in 2-3 soft goals early every game. Chicago series...he almost blows it. Blown out in games 4 and 5. Teams also get in his head for whatever reason. There's a reason AV started Schneids in Boston and in the games in Minnesota. Luongo is a great goaltender, but he's proven to be unreliable in pressure situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc_devil Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Simple Sneider is younger and more of a proven team guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcoasting Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Sweet jesus, downundacanuck.... most of your posts are longer than my Don't you get tired...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurf47 Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Downunda is like a drowning swimmer clutching at straws in order to save his dear Lou ! It will be so nice to hear him come up with something new when Schneids is #1. Lou regressed this year because he failed to adhere to the teachings of Melanson. Melansons changing Lous style a bit was the reason Lou had such a fantastic 2010-11 year. Last playoffs, and this season , Lous stats and consistancy took a dive. He reverted to playing a style that left his vulnerabilities ie lateral movement and closing off net,exposed. As a result, Lou had a worse year. Cory has done nothing but improve under the same guidance. Lou chose a poor path and as a result, will pay the ultimate price and he will not improve his game without modifications to it. Too stubborn and chose a touch thick !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underachieving Hero of CDC Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Sorry but I don't make things up to make myself sound better, and here's the stats to prove it. His streak of consecutive games (the only true sign we can judge his long-term abilities and ability to control fatigue) started on the 16th of November against Chicago where he was lit up for 5 goals on 27 shots. Then he won 5 in a row against some very bad teams, but on the 7th game against Nashville (who at the time were not scoring many goals) he finally cracked, giving up 3 goals on 5 shots in 1 period of play, and his team was scoring plenty of goals in that game for him. Then in his next start he let in 4 goals on 41 shots against the league-worst Carolina. However, after that he was given about 15 days off between starts and he was fantastic after that. This just shows that fatigue is very much an issue for this young goalie whereas it isn't for veterans such as Luongo and Lundqvist. I know the 3rd game against the Kings was the most important game of our season, but the 2 after that were nothing games. Down 3-0, just listening to the player's interviews you could tell they had given up, particularly Bieksa who was pissed off at a comment made about "how the team felt being down 3-0". They were frustrated, annoyed and everyone knew that not many teams come back from that hole, so throwing Schneider in for the final two games was just for the hell of it. Both goalies played great behind a bad team, so you can't decide their fate depending on how they played in these 5 games because they're not indicative of an entire season or a proper playoff run. How can you say we lost a Luongo-coin toss after all he's done for us? There's a reason the Canucks started to really heat up and become one of the NHL's powerhouses after the Luongo trade, which has been probably the best trade in franchise history, and you're calling it a bad thing? I'd rather have his hefty contract than not have him at all. Meanwhile, no one knows how Schneider will perform in a full season, plus playoffs. The kid has limited big-game experience unlike Luongo and I don't want to risk our Cup's chances on a coin toss when we already have a trustworthy goalie in Luongo. Lack is nowhere near the same level as Schneider was when he moved up into the NHL. Eddie Lack has played something like 2 half-seasons now in the AHL with good but not great numbers and definately no fantastic winning record. I'd be fine with watching him play the occasional game or two, but 20 games is a big ask from any AHL goalie who has never experienced the NHL before. The safer option is to find a veteran rental goalie (who, on a good team, may end up being the next Brian Elliot?) Stats don't matter in the playoffs, and we just learned why. I for one have already written off this playoffs because of how poorly the defence played in front of both netminders, but the fact is Schneider lost us the most important game of the season. We don't know how Luongo would have fared in that all-important Game 3, but it was Schneider VS Quick and Quick won the goalie duel, whereas Luongo has proven he knows how to win these big games time and time again. Sure he made some big stops and huge saves, but he didn't get the win and that's what matters. If people are criticizing Luongo for his Cup Final performances then people should be going after Schneider's head for his Round 1 performances because they're virtually the same situation. Under 30 starts is not a significant number of starts, there is a big jump from playing the occasional start to full time and his numbers will be indicative of that. If Luongo played just 30 starts all season long his numbers would be microscopic too, and if say Halak or Elliot had to play more starts than the other, their numbers would decline as well. Fatigue is a big factor in a goalie's performance. Age also isn't the only indication of a goalie's prime, its experience. Goalies take much longer to develop than average skaters and not many goalies hit their prime, have an amazing breakout season and win the Cup after playing just 50-something NHL games. Even the young goalies Quick and Rinne have taken a few 50-60 game seasons before they're finally playing well in the playoffs. They were good in previous years, but bombed out badly in the playoffs because they clearly didn't understand the mental and physical grind, and couldn't deal with the fatigue, which is what will happen to Schneider who has no idea the feeling of playing 80 games in a year. Luongo on the otherhand does. Exactly, if Schneider is easier to move and will gain us more in return then why not just trade Schneider, make our team better and also keep the better current goalie? Luongo gives us a better chance to have a full successful season and go deep in the playoffs, and the pieces Schneider would get us in return would improve our team because teams are more eager for a young goalie who will perform in the future, not the present. It's win-win. He's being selfish in the way he wants to be a starter next season. People say he's earned his starting role, but then I look over at Tuukka Rask who hasn't said a word (despite almost stealing the job of Thomas a few years back, playing 39 games) and is staying as patient as forever. Why does Schneider feel he's better than Rask, because he's clearly not. Rask has more experience and is still biding his time, and could wait another year for Thomas' contract to expire, but Rask isn't complaining. Meanwhile, every time Schneider is asked in interviews whether he would like to be a starter, he replies that he would and isn't concerned which team its on. Putting himself and his own career in front of the team is selfishness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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