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Luongo Or Kiprusoff Has Move Value In A Trade?


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Poll: Luongo Or Kiprusoff Has Move Value In A Trade? (208 member(s) have cast votes)

Which one?

  1. Luongo (156 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  2. Kiprusoff (52 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#91 D-Money

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:32 AM

We trade Lu. We have Schneider.

Cowtown trades Kipper. They have 1st overall in 2013...


FTFY
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#92 D-Money

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 09:36 AM

As for their value to a team, they're pretty close. But as for trade value, it's Kiprusoff - NO QUESTION.

With the expiring NMC, Kipper can't dictate his terms. So Feaster can simply sell him to the highest bidder. Luongo's trade value is diminished by the fact that there will only be a few teams in on the bidding.

Add in the extremely long contract with NTC, and it's a no-brainer.
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#93 Dogbyte

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:49 AM

That's easy. Kipper for sure. He is just as good as Luongo but doesn't have the albatross contract.

"What players need is the right kind of strength and power. That includes learning to understand that leverage and positioning can be just as important as raw strength when it comes to winning battles in the game. It's more about timing and athleticism --and avoiding injury--than it is about how much you can bench press. I don't know how many times I've seen a guy with the physique of a defensive end line up a guy half his size, only to bounce off when he connects. Sure, there is room in the game for big guys who can throw their weight around. But for the most part, players are smart enough to see them coming--and strong enough to protect the puck when they arrive. There are trainers out there who know how to devlop hockey-specific strength--though a trainer can help only if a player follows the program. All too often, I've seen players sign up with the best trainer, but not show up for their workouts and never to reap the benefits."

 

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#94 TheEhrhoffEffect

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:52 AM

Definitely Kiprusoff. Shorter term, no NMC. Luongo's contract is a stranglehold on any team that gets it.

#95 Patrick Kane

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 10:57 AM

:picard:

Kiprusoff >>> Luongo.

Would love to see him on a contending team, and playing less. Plays like 70-75 games a year.


You will be missed.


#96 Canucklehead420

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:07 AM

How many Vezina Trophies has Luongo won and how many has Kiprusoff won?


Kipper has one 6 years ago whats your point. the thread is about who has more trade value today. and since when do you have to have a Vezina to be considered a good goalie? last time i checked they only give out one a year.

#97 Canucklehead420

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 11:12 AM

wow people Why would luongo have more trade value then Kip??? At the moment the Canucks and 80% the fan base want Luongo as much as they want Diarrhea. :picard:

maybe that reflects the thousonds of morons in van city or the other great goalie we got?

#98 inCalgaryCANUCKSFAN

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Posted 30 April 2012 - 12:36 PM

Kipper all the way. Kipper is an outstanding goalie on a crappy team. His numbers look like crap compared to other goalies. Put him on a team even like the Canucks and his numbers would jump up considerably. The best thing about this guy is that you cant rattle him. The guy goes out there and give the flames a glimmer of hope to win games.

#99 Banned01

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:34 AM

You're um...wrong.

Now let's move away from your silly and incorrect ramblings.

The trade value depends on what team they're being traded to. Overall Luongo is going to have more trade value because he is a better goalie and has shown that in the last few years. He's also 2 years younger than Kipper and has a better cap hit. Now he has 10 years left on his contract and probably 7 years of playing time left. Of his contract however he's already been paid nearly 30% of it so it's going to be enticing to an owner as well who wants to maybe save a little money while employing one of the better goaltenders in the league.

I think there are teams that would prefer Kipper to Luongo simply because of the contract (teams with goaltending prospects who are only a few years away) but overall Luongo gets a better return than Kipper does.


Wow - you really crapped the bed on this topic and you usually have pretty good insight. You laid out the correct view but made the wrong conclusion.

In this case trade trade value will have much more to do with the contract and the market demand. You really neglected this. Even if you assume Luo > Kipper you completely ignore the primary distinguishing aspect of the trade, contract length and market demand.

Teams plan years in advance and fitting in a 6-10 year contract on their starting position of G just doesn't jive for most, especially teams that have collected a decent pool of Goalie prospects.

Lets review the market of teams. First off the pop, 18 teams allocate less to the G position than Luo's cap hit. That means that 18 NHL teams pay LESS for their starter AND backup than Luo's Cap hit.

Luo isn't ideal for Toronto because the Leafs have built a stable of young G they are developing, Reimer, Scriven, Rynnas. They will be far more attracted to a short term Kipper for 2 years while their young G gains experience and is ready to replace him in two years. If Luo comes aboard what do they do with them all?

Florida has Markstrom almost ready to enter the NHL. Again they will be more attracted to Kipper for a couple years while Markstrom backs him up and gains experience. Luo comes in for 6 years and Markstrom wilts on the vine or Cory S - 2.0 in Miami.

The Jackets have money issues and Mason is over paid BUT still if Calgary wanted to construct a trade they could take Mason+ back and the low cost of Kipper in his final years would be attractive to the teams owners. Luo may have a cheaper Cap hit but his real dollars paid are in the stratosphere, he will not go to any team losing money.

No way Chicago can take on that deal, not that Luo would go there anyway. They have a ton of long term contracts. They would be a prime destination for Kipper though with Crawford backing him up for a couple years to develop but Luo would paralyze that team in stone for the next 5 years.

Go through all the NHL teams and you will quickly find that only one fits for Luo and that is Tampa Bay which is a G wasteland in prospects and in the roster. But TB already has its own issues with other long term and expensive contracts on the books and the team is losing money. Do the owners there even want to take on another monster contract and listen to Vinny and Luo laugh at them as they walk by?

TB is sitting on a huge bounty of picks this draft - 2 - 1sts and 3 - 2nds. If they ship Ryan Malone and his 4.5 million Cap hit out in the trade to Van it could work, maybe throw in one of their 2nds. Van could ship Malone or keep him but I think you are dreaming if you think the trade value for Luo, even if you think he is the better Goalie, is going to exceed Kipper.

Plus the awkward position of sounding the trade bell right away rather then quietly shopping him should be a clear give away that Van is looking to dump him as quick as they can for the best he can get. He is already at auction to the whole NHL. If that doesn't tell you his value is going to be lower, I don't know what will.

Meanwhile in the background both Kipper and Tim Thomas have their NMCs expire and I can assure you both teams are listening to offers right now and they are far better than the Luo fire-sale prices, regardless of if you think Luo is better than both of them.

List the team he goes to?

Edited by Banned01, 02 May 2012 - 07:32 PM.


#100 Banned01

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:37 AM

As for their value to a team, they're pretty close. But as for trade value, it's Kiprusoff - NO QUESTION.

With the expiring NMC, Kipper can't dictate his terms. So Feaster can simply sell him to the highest bidder. Luongo's trade value is diminished by the fact that there will only be a few teams in on the bidding.

Add in the extremely long contract with NTC, and it's a no-brainer.


Exactly

#101 DooBie604

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

Loungo beats Kipper in almost every single category and this includes his years stuck on Florida in a team worse than Calgary.

For those who think his contract is a problem need a head check and take a look at the ridiculous contracts thrown out at other goalies. Loungo doesn't have to play all the years left on his contract, he can get bought out near the tail end. His contract is front loaded so it would barely cost anything to buy him out and even in the later years, he would be an excellent mentor for any young goaltender.

Regular season wins (active)
Regular season shutouts (active)

A goaltender achieves a shutout when he does not allow a goal against him, and plays the full game.
Regular season goals against average (active)

Goals against average is the average number of goals a goaltender allows over a 60 minute period (the regulation length of a game). It is calculated by multiplying the goals against by 60 minutes, then dividing by the total minutes played. Minimum 250 games played
Regular season save percentage (active)

Save percentage is the percentage of shots on goal that a goaltender stops. It is calculated by dividing the number of saves by the number of shots on goal. Minimum 250 games played
Playoff wins (active)


Edited by DooBie604, 02 May 2012 - 01:41 PM.


#102 Mustapha

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:39 PM

I don't know if the Flames have the balls to trade Kiprusoff.

There are other skilled goalies out there, and some of them might just be younger and cheaper.
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What are you talking about? The Flames are one of the teams that gets good value contracts


#103 Aladeen

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 01:48 PM

How many olympic gold medals has Kiprusoft won and how many has Luongo won?

Laid down the BOOM! Good Job
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#104 Coda

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 02:57 PM

In October of this year Kipper turns 36. Luongo is more than 3 years younger. Kipperusoff is running out of good years, especially considering he plays the most games of any player in the league.

#105 Tm085

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 03:14 PM

Olympics medals are something that is meaningless in the NHL. To answer your question 0 and 1.

Lets take a look at the rosters of Canada and Finland. Besides Selanne not a single player of Finland's roster would have made Team Canada.

edit: Well maybe Mikko Koivu and Tuomo Ruutu might have made Team Canada.


Goaltenders
Niklas Bäckström
, Minnesota Wild (NHL)
Miikka Kiprusoff, Calgary Flames (NHL)
Antero Niittymäki, Tampa Bay Lightning (NHL)

Defensemen
Lasse Kukkonen
, Avangard Omsk (KHL)
Sami Lepistö, Phoenix Coyotes (NHL)
Toni Lydman, Buffalo Sabres (NHL)
Janne Niskala, Frölunda (SEL)
Joni Pitkänen, Carolina Hurricanes (NHL)
Sami Salo, Vancouver Canucks (NHL)
Kimmo Timonen, Philadelphia Flyers (NHL)

Forwards
Valtteri Filppula
, Detroit Red Wings (NHL)
Niklas Hagman, Calgary Flames (NHL)
Jarkko Immonen, Ak Bars Kazan (KHL)
Olli Jokinen, New York Rangers (NHL)
Niko Kapanen, Ak Bars Kazan (KHL)
Mikko Koivu, Minnesota Wild (NHL)
Saku Koivu, Anaheim Ducks (NHL)
Jere Lehtinen, Dallas Stars (NHL)
Antti Miettinen, Minnesota Wild (NHL)
Ville Peltonen, Dinamo Minsk (KHL)
Jarkko Ruutu, Ottawa Senators (NHL)
Tuomo Ruutu, Carolina Hurricanes (NHL)
Teemu Selänne, Anaheim Ducks (NHL)


VS


Goaltenders

  • Martin Brodeur, 37 (New Jersey Devils)
  • Roberto Luongo, 30 (Vancouver Canucks)
  • Marc-Andre Fleury, 25 (Pittsburgh Penguins)
Defense
  • Scott Niedermayer, 36 (Anaheim Ducks)
  • Chris Pronger, 35 (Philadelphia Flyers)
  • Shea Weber, 24 (Nashville Predators)
  • Drew Doughty, 20 (Los Angeles Kings)
  • Duncan Keith 26 (Chicago Blackhawks)
  • Dan Boyle, 33 (San Jose Sharks)
  • Brent Seabrook, 24 (Chicago Blackhawks)
Forwards
  • Sidney Crosby, 21 (Pittsburgh Penguins)
  • Rick Nash, 25 (Columbus Blue Jackets)
  • Jarome Iginla, 32 (Calgary Flames)
  • Mike Richards, 25 (Philadelphia Flyers)
  • Joe Thornton, 30 (San Jose Sharks)
  • Patrick Marleau, 30 (San Jose Sharks)
  • Ryan Getzlaf, 24 (Anaheim Ducks)
  • Brenden Morrow, 31 (Dallas Stars)
  • Corey Perry, 24 (Anaheim Ducks)
  • Dany Heatley, 29 (San Jose Sharks)
  • Eric Staal, 25 (Carolina Hurricanes)
  • Patrice Bergeron, 25 (Boston Bruins)
  • Jonathan Toews, 21 (Chicago Blackhawks)



If Canada had such a great roster how come we couldn't get it done with Brodeur and had to bring in Luongo?

Luongo was a big part of the gold medal win, regardless of what you think

#106 Get real canuck fans

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 04:23 PM

In October of this year Kipper turns 36. Luongo is more than 3 years younger. Kipperusoff is running out of good years, especially considering he plays the most games of any player in the league.


is actully 2 1/2 years,,Lu is already 33,,Kipper be 36 in October

#107 Banned01

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:18 PM

I don't know if the Flames have the balls to trade Kiprusoff.

There are other skilled goalies out there, and some of them might just be younger and cheaper.


When it comes to goalies, younger is not safer, it is more risky. Older is better in the sense the G is proven and consistent.

Mike Smith sucks last year in TB, this year he rocks in Phx, who knows what next year will hold.

Elliot traded for Anderson from Ott to Col. He sucks in Col and is released as FA. Signs with the Blues, goes on to put up the NHL leading SV% and GAA. Anyone want to bet the farm either way on his performance next year? You don't know.

Tim Thomas, Kipper, Luo, Vokoun, all older G with a body of proven work under them should hold higher value then young G that sputter and streak in performance.

Despite everyone obsessing over Luo's performance vs Kipper, it really isn't the point. They both are top G - even if you see Luo > Kipper - it really isn't the point. Trade Value is in the mind of the team acquiring the player and Luo, due to his contract, simply does not fit on hardly any teams.

That is just the fact, his trade value due to his contract is lessened considerably. Luo was part of Van's plans and when they gave that contract to him they intended to build around him for a decade. It is some poor planning at this point.

Before Luo - Van has traditionally been weak in Net, no star G, they were always on the hunt. They drafted Cory Schneider 24th overall with their first pick in 2004 and then traded two years later for an elite goalie in Luo. Then in 2010 gave a 12 year deal to Luo, but now their 1st round pick from 2004 has risen to top level.

They have created a mess for themselves now because Luo has demanded a trade and they have sounded the auction bell which means they are dealing from a position of weakness, he simply will not garner the same type of return Kipper or Tim Thomas for that matter will...

He doesn't fit other teams Cap structures or planning.

Edited by Banned01, 02 May 2012 - 07:21 PM.


#108 Banned01

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:27 PM

Loungo beats Kipper in almost every single category and this includes his years stuck on Florida in a team worse than Calgary.

For those who think his contract is a problem need a head check and take a look at the ridiculous contracts thrown out at other goalies. Loungo doesn't have to play all the years left on his contract, he can get bought out near the tail end. His contract is front loaded so it would barely cost anything to buy him out and even in the later years, he would be an excellent mentor for any young goaltender.





DiPietro is really the only comparable contract for a G. Teams plan years and years in advance on long-term Cap management, draft picks made years ago, development of young G.

Why on earth would teams take on Luo and waste or negate multiple decisions in past drafts, prospects etc?

Why would 18 teams in the NHL, all who have planned their Cap allocation to the G position over time suddenly decide to double the price?

I can't wait to hear people suggest Luo could go to the Red Wings. Holland would start laughing and not stop until Gillis hung up the phone. The Wings will never spend that kind of money on the G position.

Teams plan years and years in advance. They just can't shuffle and adjust to such a massive contract and financial commitment so easily. Much easier for them to take on short term deals like Kipper and Thomas based on immediate needs...

Edited by Banned01, 02 May 2012 - 07:28 PM.


#109 unknown33429

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:34 PM

Kipper can not be compared to Luongo, he's good but not good enough. Vancouver fans put a lot more pressure on the goalie here than do Calgary fans. Kipper would certainly not be able to handle to pressure Vancity fans give


Kipper is much better at dealing with these situations. The fans turned on him last year for a while, and he stayed composed.

Vancity doesn't give Luongo enough pressure. A market like Philly, Boston, Montreal, Detroit and he's be run out of town after the two Chicago losses. If anything, we coddle our players too much, and don't give them enough heat.

Are you CRAZY??? Trade Green for ONE first round pick?? He's restricted after this season.... He WILL get an offer sheet for 7-8 million from a number of teams regardless if he plays another minute for us or not. That offer sheet would be worth 4 first round draft choices.


Some fans overrate their players, and then there is this guy.

#110 Newsflash

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:52 PM

Kipper is much better at dealing with these situations. The fans turned on him last year for a while, and he stayed composed.


With an outstanding .906 save %. What composure.

Buddy I called this EXACT situtation on here two years ago and was flamed, so I guess I have a bit of hockey knowledge, not to mention the 4 years I played in the OHL idiot.


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#111 JurassicTunga

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:27 PM

With an outstanding .906 save %. What composure.


.921

Edited by JurassicTunga, 02 May 2012 - 08:28 PM.


#112 JurassicTunga

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 08:27 PM


delete

Edited by JurassicTunga, 02 May 2012 - 08:28 PM.


#113 Burnsey

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 11:21 PM

It depends. If you have a young goalie who is expected to be great in 2-4 years times then go with Kipper. If you have no real goalie in the organisation (including minors) you go with the long term option in Luongo.

Financially it may make more sense to go with Kipper. Although his cap hit is higher he has less years, so you can see what he has and if it's worth keeping always re-sign him.

With saying all this, doesn't matter which goaltender a team would have, both are great and worthy of taking teams to a long playoff run. Also, without a good team in front of them, it doesn't really matter who is in net. Example this year's playoffs for the Canucks. Team in front didn't play so nothing Luongo or Schnieder did would help them.

team-canada-jarome-iginla-photo.jpg


#114 Watermelons

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:49 AM

The homers on this board make me laugh, hence why I hardly ever post.

The argument that "Luongo won us gold" should not be a resepected.

He let in the tying goal with less than 30 seconds left? Yes, they were crashing the creas and the D should have boxed the US out but LOU was also flopping around like a dead whale like he always does.

He finished the tournament with the second highest GAA, and one of the worst save percentages.



As for the poster who said Kiprusoff hasn't played in many meaningful games in the past 8 years, I'd say the olympics count as meaningful.



And yes, I am a diehard 'Nucks fan I just watch the entire league, not one team.


I don't know what statistics you were looking at but according to the IIHF Luongo's sv% was the 5th highest in the tournament (6th if you include goalies that didn't play over 40% of their teams games) and his GAA 3rd LOWEST in the tournament not 2nd HIGHEST. :picard:

His stats were A LOT better than Kipper's (given that Kipper's team wasn't as good, but Luongo outplayed Martin Brodeur, who is one of the best to play the game, for the spot on Team Canada so "Canada could not have won with any goalie" like so many people claim).

Source: http://stats.iihf.co...00_85A_30_0.pdf

And if you watch the replay of the game trying goal, you will realize that Luongo deserves as much blame as Weber and Niedermayer does. How can two of the best d-men in the world leave a player (Parise) wide open in front of the net?

And...Luongo was sitting upright, he never "flopped like a whale" like you say.

tumblr_lv6jbk180f1r5jtugo1_250.gif  Kirby_eats_a_watermelon.gif 


#115 Banned01

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 05:25 AM

I don't know what statistics you were looking at but according to the IIHF Luongo's sv% was the 5th highest in the tournament (6th if you include goalies that didn't play over 40% of their teams games) and his GAA 3rd LOWEST in the tournament not 2nd HIGHEST. :picard:

His stats were A LOT better than Kipper's (given that Kipper's team wasn't as good, but Luongo outplayed Martin Brodeur, who is one of the best to play the game, for the spot on Team Canada so "Canada could not have won with any goalie" like so many people claim).

Source: http://stats.iihf.co...00_85A_30_0.pdf

And if you watch the replay of the game trying goal, you will realize that Luongo deserves as much blame as Weber and Niedermayer does. How can two of the best d-men in the world leave a player (Parise) wide open in front of the net?

And...Luongo was sitting upright, he never "flopped like a whale" like you say.


First off the small sample size of the Olympics is practically irrelevant. Who cares.

The NHL results are what you should focus on and AGAIN who cares. This topic is not who is the better player, Kipper or Luo. The topic is who has MORE TRADE VALUE.

Luo's contract lessens his trade value considerably. That is the whole point. No way the Canucks sound the Luo is up for sale auction bell if they think they are going to have offers.

All these people here running around trying to say Luo has more trade value. Tell me what team(s) he goes to? Not a single person here can articulate a team where he will have a better trade value than Kipper, Thomas or even Vokoun and again it is all about his contract, NOT his play.

Edited by Banned01, 03 May 2012 - 05:26 AM.


#116 Newsflash

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 12:05 PM

.921


That was this year.

He's talking about last year, when the fans turned on him.

Fans were treating him like a god this year.

Buddy I called this EXACT situtation on here two years ago and was flamed, so I guess I have a bit of hockey knowledge, not to mention the 4 years I played in the OHL idiot.


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#117 Langdon Algur

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:02 PM

It could be an interesting off season if Kipper, Luongo and Thomas are all made available for trade

Burkie and Yzerman could both end up very happy by October.
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#118 Banned01

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 12:11 PM

It could be an interesting off season if Kipper, Luongo and Thomas are all made available for trade

Burkie and Yzerman could both end up very happy by October.


Or unhappy - there are several teams that are in the hunt for a starter and after this years playoffs their might be a renewed interest in the position.

CLB - Mason is not getting it done.
TOR - Burke has announced it
TB - A wasteland starving for G
CHI - If they want another Cup they have to address a glaring issue.
WASH - will probably resign Vokoun
FLO - Could use a better Starter
Devils - Marty is 40 - does he retire?

Luo is on fire-sale prices. His contract is a huge negative and will likely be the first to go. He could fit the Devils or TB.

After that prices will rocket up because Thomas or Kipper and Harding will be all that is left on the market for Starters.




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