Happy Deathday Osama!

[Buddhas Hand]

I already said it's delusional to expect people and countries to be altruistic. I'm assuming you mean people killed by US's allies or people they were supporting. Russia was our most important ally in WW2, and based on German technology and where it was going (few years from developing nerve gas), a victory would have been far more difficult (unless there was a atomic bomb involved). Stalin killed a lot of innocent people. Was it wrong to support him because it helped us beat Nazis?

World politics are pretty complex, and US is not in a strong enough position to force everyone to be good, and sometimes they have to look at their own interests (like every country).

Edit: Canada supports some questionable situations too. Tamil tigers were a terrorists group and defined as such by us and credited with using the first suicide bomber. The Sri-Lankan, however, has been persecuting their Tamil population for decades, and we support them. We also support Isreal, and one can argue they are constantly building new settlements in area that doesn't belong to them (at least as defined by the UN), and have killed their share of innocent people in collateral damage. We also are cool with China's oppression of Tibet. I could go on but I hope you get the point by now. World politics not black and white...

I'm from the area, and I know quite a bit about history. Regardless of whether they would've won or not (not a certainty), America still tried to help them fend off the soviets. They are not that efficient at fighting off invaders as people think. Afghanistan and Pakistan were all a part of India for a significant part of history (other than the parts that it was all separate smaller different countries), and most people (Alexandre etc.) took over that part of India, but could never take the whole country. British had control of majority of the area, but it is a very rural area and the terrain is pretty bad, so it's tough to maintain control without spending significant resources, and it's not really all that valuable so nobody wants it.

It's not that no one can take it over; it's just that no one wants to control it. There are far more resources in India (the part that is still India today), and that's what people want the most.

[Buggernut]

You Just keep on trying to rationalize and justify the evil actions of a nation that proclaims freedom and equality for all when the reallity is that their society and it's actions are no better than previous nations who dominated the world but did not pretend to be something they were not

[Buddhas Hand]

I guess back in their days, the powers that be didn't have to account and justify themselves to the media and public as much as the Americans do now. People fought for king and country without questioning right and wrong. It's now much more difficult to get the country to rally behind you, with the prying eyes of the media all over you and people raising questions and arguing against the party line over the Internet.

Being hobbled by public accountability, America's days as the world's superpower are numbered, and bound to yield to a country that rules with an iron fist and does not answer to anyone. (China? Russia?)

[Buggernut]

the white man call himself civilised cause he know how to take over

the white man come to pillage my village now he tell me i have to bend over

i do not like the white man up in me he rape all my people as he rapes my country

everything i love and cherish he try to take away we wil be rid of him soon come the day

[Buddhas Hand]

The red man has been doing that to one another a plenty before the white man came over.

[Buggernut]

ahh but the white man did that every where he went . when white man came to a place that was new to them it was a paradise because the indegenous people had respected and felt a connection to the enviroment they lived in , and more importantly they did not consider themselves owners of the land merely guardians of it , and they did not take from it more than they needed .

[Buddhas Hand]

That's because they just lacked the technology and organization for it.

Don't ever think that it was only the white man that had ruthless empires. The Mongols, the Imperial Japanese, and the even the Aztecs (Native Americans) were all pretty brutal.

Read up on scalping, which was a common war practice among Native American tribes.

http://en.wikipedia....g#North_America

[Buggernut]

you know why they did not have the technology and we did , because whiteman has taken killing his fellow man far more seriously than other races , and it was the amount and frequency of the wars we had are having that drove the technology of guns , germs and steel that led us to being the dominant culture . more importantly is the greed of the white man we always want more , more than we need.

[Buddhas Hand]

The situation in Europe (ie. population, politics, access to resources, etc.) just happened to be more conducive to its civilizations getting further ahead technologically.

It's a case of "they would if they could", and it applies equally to all races.

[Buggernut]

mate what can i say , you go ahead and believe that drivel .these societies had existed for just as long if not longer and like i said when white man got there they were pristine and there was an abundance of every thing

[Buddhas Hand]

I'm sure white man too was living harmoniously with nature back when they were still living in caves.

The Chinese aren't exactly the best carers of their environment either. And you know what? They're not white!

I'm not white. But I know self loathing guilt complex ridden nonsense when I see it.

Get help.

[VICanucksfan5551]

ahh but the white man did that every where he went . when white man came to a place that was new to them it was a paradise because the indegenous people had respected and felt a connection to the enviroment they lived in , and more importantly they did not consider themselves owners of the land merely guardians of it , and they did not take from it more than they needed .

in regards to the amercan native indians they did not kill each other the way the white men did , it was considered a far greater act of bravery to touch your enemy in combat {counting coup ] rather than killing them .

i suggest you read read the book guns , germs and steel [ the fates of human societies ] for more information on this subject , and the reason why as the title suggests that white europeans became the dominant culture .

[Buddhas Hand]

That's a bunch of bull. The natives did a ton of damage to the environment in North America and are likely the reason for the Pleistocene mass extinction event. The Europeans just happened to have technology more efficient at accomplishing that damage.

We're all human. We do the same crap regardless of the colour of our skin.

[VICanucksfan5551]

we are all human yes and what makes us all the same is the function of human nature . but some cultures have done far more damage to the world than others have . lets take for example the three main countries i discern on these boards , canada , america and australia , when white european settlers arrived these countries were basically pristine and their inhabitants had a connection with the world they lived in that we can only dream of . they did not kill each other to the same degree as white man did , they did not take as more than they needed from the inviroment , and most importantly in my mind is they did not feel they owned it they were merely guardians and protectors of it to pass on to the next generation .

i believe you should read the book guns germs and steel , the fate of human societies , you might then understand where i am coming .

[Buddhas Hand]

mate i am a farmer and i have had a connection with the land since i was a toddler following my parents around the farm "helping them ".

my mother and father have created several new hybrids of protea's by cross pollinating , one called the superba is absolutely stunning , bright pink with green leaves this was a cross between protea nerifolia and protea compacta .

i work really hard for a small return because i believe what i do is good for the world . i grow natives which are bushs with leaves that act as lungs for the world , i mulch nearly all my vegatation and add it to the soil which is carbon capture and use no chemicals on my farm , and after all of this from the cutting to years later picking the first flower and then people tell me that these flowers bring joy and colour into their lives , do you think this sounds like some one who has an idea about ecology .

and as i said i am aware that other cultures have acted to the detriment of us all but pound for pound you cannot go past the whiteman for the damage he has done the to world and the amount of of suffering he has been responsible for .

[VICanucksfan5551]

mate i am a farmer and i have had a connection with the land since i was a toddler following my parents around the farm "helping them ".

my mother and father have created several new hybrids of protea's by cross pollinating , one called the superba is absolutely stunning , bright pink with green leaves this was a cross between protea nerifolia and protea compacta .

i work really hard for a small return because i believe what i do is good for the world . i grow natives which are bushs with leaves that act as lungs for the world , i mulch nearly all my vegatation and add it to the soil which is carbon capture and use no chemicals on my farm , and after all of this from the cutting to years later picking the first flower and then people tell me that these flowers bring joy and colour into their lives , do you think this sounds like some one who has an idea about ecology .

and as i said i am aware that other cultures have acted to the detriment of us all but pound for pound you cannot go past the whiteman for the damage he has done the to world and the amount of of suffering he has been responsible for .

[Buddhas Hand]

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was accusing you of being clueless about ecology. My point was merely that cascading trophic interactions are an important part of ecological conservation.

I'd argue that this magnified effect was mostly due to technological advantages and higher population densities. Also, I don't think it's fair to paint all white people as a monolithic culture. There are many different Caucasian cultures.

[Buggernut]

amazing is it not that the chinese had gunpowder for centuries and had not thought of using it to kill each other , and it is since they took up the ways of the white man that they have become what they are today which is a far cry from what they were .

[Buggernut]

we are all human yes and what makes us all the same is the function of human nature . but some cultures have done far more damage to the world than others have . lets take for example the three main countries i discern on these boards , canada , america and australia , when white european settlers arrived these countries were basically pristine and their inhabitants had a connection with the world they lived in that we can only dream of . they did not kill each other to the same degree as white man did , they did not take as more than they needed from the inviroment , and most importantly in my mind is they did not feel they owned it they were merely guardians and protectors of it to pass on to the next generation .

[Buggernut]

thats all right mate , and i agree that if you mees with one part of the system it will eventually effect the whole system .

you argue that is is mostly due to 1 technological advances and i am arguing that the rapid growth in technology is more often than not driven by our desire to fight , and find more effective ways to kill each other, the bigger the war the bigger the leaps in technology are . . 2 population densities , in this i will agree but also add they were running out of resources [ i cannot recall off hand but i remember seeing how many trees it took to make a galleon and it blew me away] . which lead them not only to go to other lands to plunder their resources , but also bring deseases , and alcohol, and more often than not undermine the culture and beliefs of the people who were already there, and in the case of easter island totally wipe them out .