We Should Stop Looking At Raymonds Down Side

[the boards]

I had to laugh when I saw the other topic: "Mason Raymond's Upside" ...Locked!

[Ugli Fruit]

First of all, I didn't ignore the list of "attributes" you wrote for Raymond. I read them, and I disagree with most of them. This does not make me ignorant, it makes me opinionated. I am entitled to this opinion, just as much as you are entitled to yours. However, my opinion of his play is neither biased or premeditated. It is based on years of watching him play. I don't make opinions about players before I see them play. Raymond has had more than his fair shot on this team, and quite frankly, it hasn't worked out. Time to move on.

Let me also say that I have never once attacked Raymond as a person. My hatred is based solely in the way he plays hockey. He is a selfish hockey player. Don't throw names like Booth and Kesler out there to prove me wrong. That's like saying "It's ok for Raymond to be selfish because there are other players on this team that are selfish as well". Well guess what? Its not ok for any of them to play selfish hockey, but given the choice, I would take either of Booth or Kesler on my team over Raymond any day.

I have also never praised the grit of Kassian. I haven't seen enough of him to have a decent opinion, therefore I will reserve any judgement until atleast seeing him for a full year. Unlike alot of people on this board, I do not think he is NHL ready, nor do I think he is the second coming of Todd Bertuzzi for us. As far as the other names you mentioned, guys like Higgins, Burrows, Hansen, and Lappierre, play hockey the right way. Those guys never take a shift off. In my opinion, I cant say the same thing about Raymond.

However, your most ridiculous comment may be that I am some sort of phony fan for caring about wins and losses. Let me ask you, what fans don't care about wins and losses? Are you tuning into games to watch these players because they are "real people" and they deserve our respect. I guarantee that you are not. You care just as much about the wins and losses as I do so spare me the sob story about these guys as real people. I don't care what these guys are like off the ice. I care what they do on the ice because on the ice they are canucks and I am a canucks fan. You are the same way so quit acting so high and mighty.

I know my opinions on Raymond are strong, but they are based on facts and years of watching him play. I strongly believe he brings nothing to the table that other players on our roster dont also bring to the table. Would we really miss him if Higgins took his spot in the top six for the full year. I believe the answer is an emphatic NO and for this reason, I view him as useless to our team.

[Linden Legend]

The fact that you made your opinion on him using the games he played in where he was NEVER fully recovered or fit from his injuries, you have either an incredibly high standard on players or you are biased against him.

The only year he was injury-free was 09-10. Make judgements based on seasons where the player has ZERO factors going against him.

Also, given the fact that you didn't really argue the fact made by 5MITB that you don't care about Kesler or Booth's poor seasons, suggests that you are just a guy who is frustrated with Raymond and is unwilling to admit the fact that your opinions about him being useless is exaggerated and unfairly stated.

[5minutesinthebox]

Before commenting on a post, you should really take a moment and read what the person wrote before you misquote it.

If you actually read what I said you would see that my opinion of Raymond is based on YEARS of watching him play. I am not only including his bad games in this. I am including everything. Just because he only had one fully healthy season are we supposed to just disregard his other body of work. NO. If he wasn't fit to play, thrn he should not have been playing. If you are on the ice, then all criticism is fair game.

I also never once defended Booth or Kesler for their poor season. I simply stated that I would take either of those players over Raymond. The guy arguing my point stated that it is unfair to say that Raymond is a selfish player when both Booth and Kesler are selfish as well. This in my opinion is a terrible argument. All three are selfish. This doesn't excuse Raymond from playing this way.

[SkeeterHansen]

Raymonds upside isn't his shot. It's alright, but he can't rely on it.

His strengths are using his speed and agility along the boards to create open space for himself to drive to the net.

We have seen this from Raymond before. A full off season of training and working out is going to do wonders.

Raymond will be the biggest surprise next season. Quote me on it.

[Drop Em]

So you disagree with my opinion but you dont back them up with anything relative.

Who was better than Raymond (outside of the Sedins) amongst of forward group against the Kings? An argument could be made for Booth, but I would disagree with it.

Who is a better skater amongst our forward group?

Who uses his speed and skating ability to gain the zone better? Most of the forwards play dump and chase

Who has shown better chemistry on this team with Kesler than Raymond? Certainly not Booth.

Raymond was given another opportunity because of his injury. The organization recognized what Raymond had to go through, and they realized that not giving him another opportunity to prove himself, would reflect poorly on them and how they treat their players.

Furthermore Raymond chose to settle before the arbitration hearing for less than he would have been awarded, thereby taking a paycut as a sign of good faith.

[Bodee]

Do you watch the games? Rather than criticizing someone for stating FACT, maybe you should watch Raymond from a critical standpoint, rather that from the standpoint of a Canucks homer. Everything this poster said is true of Raymond. They aren't cliches, they are blatant facts about his game that you cannot see because you have the blinders on. Quite frankly, your comments make YOU look silly, not the poster you are criticising.

[riffraff]

Read the post again, there is nothing factual only an exaggeration (of what every player experiences on the ice) which by it's exaggeration becomes a non fact. So by extension he is NOT stating truth. They are cliches.

Cliche: a hackneyed theme, characterisation, or situation.

While Raymond has fallen down, more than other players..............certainly last season. Could it possibly be down to his injury, his lack of pre season, his inability to work on his core strength. One thing is for sure, it is not something unique to him. I have seen Daniel and others fall down last season with no one near him.

Raymond tends also to skate faster than others by the way and he is only 185lbs at 6'-0.......on the margin for critical COG maybe?

Would you deny it might be easier to lose an edge the faster you skate, in a hockey context?

The point is, does it markedly affect his game?

Well if he is played on a nightly basis, mostly on the 2nd line and usually playing 14+ mins I can only assume it doesn't to any great extent............and yet it features time after time on here, by people who only see HIS occasional frailties while giving other other players a free pass on theirs.

Would you really like your son judged in such a way if you had one and he played hockey. I would hope not.

The IMPORTANT critical fact is he is constantly picked and usually on the 2nd line.................that is a FACT.

[nuck nit]

For what Raymond is being paid he can provide defensive coverage and have the upside of a breakout year offensively.

Either way,he is a bargain at the price and can be used for trade bait,if need be.

[Bodee]

Daniel may fall occasionaly - all payers do. But when Daniel needs to remain on his feet, he does. And thats with the leagues top opposition on him like a dirty shirt. Comparing Raymond to Daniel in any context is laughable.

so even if this is true, is this an attribute to want in a player we have on our team? a perimeter player, prone to falling because he has a "center of gravity" issue?

judging a child who is unlikely to make the nhl while playing amateur hockey for fun is vastly different than judging a professional payed millions to perform a job

[Guest Gumballthechewy]

Bodee, what is with your man crush on Raymond? What has he done to warrant such admiration from you?

[Ugli Fruit]

Before commenting on a post, you should really take a moment and read what the person wrote before you misquote it.

If you actually read what I said you would see that my opinion of Raymond is based on YEARS of watching him play. I am not only including his bad games in this. I am including everything. Just because he only had one fully healthy season are we supposed to just disregard his other body of work. NO. If he wasn't fit to play, thrn he should not have been playing. If you are on the ice, then all criticism is fair game.

I also never once defended Booth or Kesler for their poor season. I simply stated that I would take either of those players over Raymond. The guy arguing my point stated that it is unfair to say that Raymond is a selfish player when both Booth and Kesler are selfish as well. This in my opinion is a terrible argument. All three are selfish. This doesn't excuse Raymond from playing this way.

[Bodee]

Bodee, what is with your man crush on Raymond? What has he done to warrant such admiration from you?

[Riviera82]

Watch the games.

"Fall down all the time" Does that really get you off?

"and lose it every time, shoot into the goalies crest".......man, do you have NOTHING original or ACCURATE for that matter, to contribute.

You speak in Playstation Jockey, hyperbolic cliches that damn you as someone who never watches a game by your even committing them to print.

Do you even read back what you write and wonder if you have a clue about hockey..........this is a player who is selected on a nightly basis mostly on the 2nd line by a 2x PT winning coach even when coming off a spinal fracture............Now either you know more about hockey than AV and MG put together, or as I suspect, you are someone who hasn't a clue and probably doesn't watch the games ...........................how silly does that make you look?

I would have more respect for you if you just came out and said "I don't like him he is not my type of hockey player."

[Ugli Fruit]

I watch all the games I can and when I cant watch, I listen to the radio.

What part of my post was inaccurate? You failed to mention that and instead just attacked me within your tirade.

Nobody knows why Raymond is put on the 2nd line. My guess is that he doesn't fit anywhere else within the team, so he's either on the 2nd or he's in the press box.

I dont know what MGs reasoning is for not dumping Raymond, but we all know that AV plays favorites and that is a fact.

Raymond sucked before his injury and has been a one-hit wonder so far in his career, 09/10.

I dont care whether you respect me or not Bodee, I know that I would respect you a bit more if you hid your boner for Raymond a little better though.

[hackamore]

Why do some of us defend him, maybe because so many Raymond naysayers keep throwing out the same rhetoric in each and every topic were his name is mentioned. He falls, he shoots at goalies chests, he plays on perimeter and looses pucks, only had one good season ect. Opinions, yes, but more often than not, not substantial points of debate. Many of the derogatory comments thrown out in this forum by fans and by the supposedly unbiased media won't make me alter my opinion of Raymond [ or any player for that matter]. But they often cause me to question the source where they came from and in the case of the media, the agenda they have in their quest to get more of us to buy their papers or listen to their talk shows.

Many fans have held the same perspective of him since he came into the league, even the year he had his 50 plus points he was not appreciated by everyone. He is never going to put another player through the boards or be overly physical, it is not his game and heaven forbid you play in the NHL without that trait under your belt. There have been several articles published showing how useful a player he was before his injury, but many of you still throw out the same 'he was useless even before he was hurt' commentary, completely disregarding anything positive about him. To have made it this far in the NHL, if you all watch as closely as you say you do, and know as much as you claim you do, you would acknowledge he is not as bad as you make him out to be, he just does not play the brand of hockey you want him to.

Vancouver holds their players to a high character standard. Management and the Canuck coaching staff have all commented several times on the fact he would come to practice early, work out with skills coach at every opportunity, and how much effort he made to return to the game after breaking two vertebrae. While he probably is nowhere close to being voted into sainthood, he doesn't go out to hurt opposing players, make controversial embarrassing remarks in the media, beat up cab drivers, or have drunk pictures taken from the Roxy. He and his wife have been actively involved in several charity endeavors for the community since coming to Vancouver representing the team proudly. Maybe some of us just see all these contentious posts as a character assassination of a player who has had as rough a year as any Canuck I can think of. You don't have to put on homer glasses and see every player on the team as perfect, but for the players like Mason and Ballard who have fallen out of favor in Vancouver many of the remarks come off as spiteful and discourteous. Your home team should not be a hostile environment to play in.

Quote from a Pass it to Bulis article: The average fan who doesn't care about advanced statistics can still look back at his 2009-10 season when he broke out with 25 goals and 53 points and wonder where that production has gone. Raymond was even a late call up to Team Canada in the World Championships after the Canucks were eliminated from the playoffs. That breakout season earned Raymond a 2-year, $5.1 million contract extension. Unfortunately, his production appeared to sharply drop off the following season, starting the criticism.

Yes, I said “appeared.” While Raymond scored just 15 goals and 39 points in 2010-11, that drop in points wasn’t as bad as it may seem. With Ryan Kesler promoted to the first powerplay unit, the second powerplay unit lost its primary scoring threat and subsequently its identity. Raymond went from 8 powerplay goals and 18 powerplay points to 2 powerplay goals and just 6 powerplay points, largely because the second powerplay unit rarely saw the ice. Raymond’s average powerplay ice time dropped by over 40 seconds per game.

At even-strength, Raymond’s point production actually improved, though it again doesn’t seem like it at first glance. Raymond went from 35 even-strength points to 32 in 2010-11, but did so in 12 fewer games and with more than a minute less in average ice time per game.

In 2009-10, Raymond scored 1.87 even-strength points per 60 minutes of ice time. In 2010-11, he scored 2.06.

But the main reason Canucks fans who care about advanced stats defended Raymond was that his possession numbers were simply ridiculous. Raymond’s Corsi numbers weren’t just good last year, they were the best on the team. He continually drove play into the offensive end of the ice using the skills we’ve frequently highlighted on PITB. It might be easiest to understand his impact last season by pointing out that he allowed the fewest even-strength shots against per 60 minutes of ice time than any other player on the Canucks.

All this is to show that, despite his drop in point production, Raymond still contributed both offensively and defensively last season. When he was on the ice, the opposition shots were few and far between and the puck was mostly in the offensive zone.

[WHL rocks]

dl

[Guest Gumballthechewy]

I believe in fairness. I watch all the games and plenty of other teams on GameCenter Live. There is nothing wrong with Raymond's skill levels, speed, defence or production when fit. He also puts in a hard shift night after night. While not now a youngster (at 26/7) he is still young in playing terms with probably his best days ahead of him if he stays fit.

Some months ago I posted a list of players who while being paid more, often much more, do not have either the production or the potential of Raymond.

A few examples.......not one of them would be worth Raymond in a straight trade.

Troy Brouwer.....$2.35 .....33 points from 82

Frolik....$2.3 M........15 points from 63

Matt Stajan .....$3.5.....18 points from 61

Roman Cervenka .....$3.77.......has no NHL pedigree at 26.

Stepniak ......$2,5 ............28 points from 61

Ville Leino.....$4.5......25 points from 71

Vic Antropov....$4.0 .....35 points in 69

Joel Ward -------$3.0 ......18 points from 73

Nikolai Kulemin.....$2.8.....28 points from 70

Mathew Lombardi .....$3.5.......18 points from 62

Michal Hanzus .......$2.5 .......24 points from 67

[5minutesinthebox]

You really think that Raymond took a paycut as a sign of good faith? Give me a break! You can't honestly believe that garbage? The Canucks took the very rare stance in electing to take Raymond to cut down salary arbitration and he realized that he had no leverage at all. Do you think they'd do that if they were happy with his play? Two bad seasons in a row, and the fact that he's proven to be injury prone didn't give him much leverage or hope in having a positive outcome at his hearing. The fact that he took the pay cut had NOTHING to do with him signing the contract as a sign of his good faith, but instead was because he was afraid of the hearing process, as many are. Sometimes the truth hurts and Raymond was going to hear a lot of negative truths about his play at his hearing and he did the right thing in taking what he co uld get........but again, it had nothing to do with good faith.

[Drop Em]

You understand that in an arbitration

I don't have to believe it, it's a fact. Had this gone to arbitration he would have gotten more, it's that simple. And because the Canucks took him to arbitration they would have had to pay. Raymond chose to settle before the arbitration hearing. And another thing smart guy, it's a common tactic to take a player to arbitration to avoid the possibility of a player getting offer sheets they would have to match to keep a player. It was the obvious choice as they knew they would get Raymond for a discount, and they wouldn't lose him for nothing. All while giving Raymond another season in a low risk high reward scenerio. Injury prone is not used to describe a player who broke his thumb one season and then had his back broken the next, you don't seem to have much grasp of the concept. Two seasons ago Raymond was only 7 points off of his career year (pace) even with the broken thumb and shoulder injury. Not exactly a horrible season. Then last season he comes in with no preseason training and after being in a brace for 6 months and you were expecting what exactly?!