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We Should Stop Looking At Raymonds Down Side


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#181 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 12:06 AM

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I've come to the conclusion that if you are on here defending the way that Mason Raymond plays hockey, then you yourself know NOTHING about hockey!! Raymond is useless. He brings the players around him down. He kills momentum and scoring chances. He falls down all the time. He is not good defensively. His shot sucks. He NEVER looks to pass. He takes low percentage shots from terrible angles that never have a chance. He is NOT THAT FAST.

Sorry for the rant but I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why he is an asset to our team.

And stop playing the injury card.


The problem you have is that you only see the scoresheet. Raymond was one of our best forwards not named Sedin against the Kings. Yet the so called beasts in Kesler, Burrows, Lapierre, Higgins, were utterly invisible that entire series.

You want facts, fine:

Raymond is:

- the teams best and fastest skating forward.
- he is excellent in transition
- he uses that speed to gain the offensive zone and blow up defensive zone coverage, He is one of the few players on the team who does this well
- he is one of the teams best forecheckers, and is almost always the first player back on the backcheck
- he never takes a shift off
- unlike Booth (who makes nearly 2 million more) he actually plays defence and has shown chemistry with Kesler.
- he is very good on the PK.

There have been numerous videos already posted showing the skill that Raymond possesses, so I dont feel the need to reiterate them. Did he have a down year? Sure he did, after having his back busted. Booth and Kesler were also massive disappointments last season but they get a break for being injured, even though that make almost double what Raymond does?

Kesler was the one who brought down the 2nd line last season, not Raymond. Kesler was more of a disappointment and he came back from a far less serious injury. He was supposed to be the anchor for that line, and it seemed he completely forgot how to utilize his wingers.

Raymond deserved another shot with this team. Had the team just let him walk, it would have reflected very poorly on the organization for giving up a player who literally broke his back for this team. You dont think other NHL players would take notice of that? That perhaps his team mates might take notice of that?

You seem to have this misconception that everything is black and white, the problem is you have no ability to read between the lines. Just like the other Raymond haters on the CDC ,your blind biased is both pathetic and ignorant. Youre not a real fan, your just a bitter person looking for a scapegoat.
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#182 Bodee

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:08 AM

Raymond was the best forward on the Canucks against the Kings not named Sedin. He was better than the likes of Kesler, Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Malhotra, and Lapierre (even with his gaffe against Kopitar...a game we won anyway). Where were all these animals when we needed them, hmm?


Raymond has taken a wagon load of crap on here and in the media.

He is a young guy who had come back from injury to play for the team he is happy in. He gives 100+% EVERY night because that is the only way he knows how to play.............unlike some who "seem" to bring the game they think the opposition deserve.........and were therefore caught with their pants down in the first 2 playoff games.

It's an attitude / arrogance thing ...............there were players in a Canucks jersey who were playing with an injury and sadly others who played as if they were.

Great teams / players bring their A game EVERY NIGHT.............just look at the sporting greats. They play every game like a cup final and that is the only way to maintain your form when you come up against the "sleepers" like LA.

We are neither great nor a sleeper. We have the players to be great though if they and the Coaches take their head out of their ass.

Raymond brings it EVERY night and that is why he is a 2nd liner and too valuable to lose from this team.

Edited by debluvscanucks, 05 September 2012 - 06:55 AM.

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#183 Bodee

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:12 AM

The problem you have is that you only see the scoresheet. Raymond was one of our best forwards not named Sedin against the Kings. Yet the so called beasts in Kesler, Burrows, Lapierre, Higgins, were utterly invisible that entire series.

You want facts, fine:

Raymond is:

- the teams best and fastest skating forward.
- he is excellent in transition
- he uses that speed to gain the offensive zone and blow up defensive zone coverage, He is one of the few players on the team who does this well
- he is one of the teams best forecheckers, and is almost always the first player back on the backcheck
- he never takes a shift off
- unlike Booth (who makes nearly 2 million more) he actually plays defence and has shown chemistry with Kesler.
- he is very good on the PK.

There have been numerous videos already posted showing the skill that Raymond possesses, so I dont feel the need to reiterate them. Did he have a down year? Sure he did, after having his back busted. Booth and Kesler were also massive disappointments last season but they get a break for being injured, even though that make almost double what Raymond does?

Kesler was the one who brought down the 2nd line last season, not Raymond. Kesler was more of a disappointment and he came back from a far less serious injury. He was supposed to be the anchor for that line, and it seemed he completely forgot how to utilize his wingers.

Raymond deserved another shot with this team. Had the team just let him walk, it would have reflected very poorly on the organization for giving up a player who literally broke his back for this team. You dont think other NHL players would take notice of that? That perhaps his team mates might take notice of that?

You seem to have this misconception that everything is black and white, the problem is you have no ability to read between the lines. Just like the other Raymond haters on the CDC ,your blind biased is both pathetic and ignorant. Youre not a real fan, your just a bitter person looking for a scapegoat.


Nailed it!
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#184 Riviera82

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 05:21 AM

Raymond is dead weight and he plays like he's got a broken foot all the time. Maybe he gives 100% every game but when all he can do is skate fast, fall down, hold on to the puck on the perimeter and lose it every time, shoot into the goalies crest when he actually does put it on net, and get pushed around like a school girl, well his 100% isn't 2nd line calibre for this team.
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#185 Bodee

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 08:20 AM

Raymond is dead weight and he plays like he's got a broken foot all the time. Maybe he gives 100% every game but when all he can do is skate fast, fall down, hold on to the puck on the perimeter and lose it every time, shoot into the goalies crest when he actually does put it on net, and get pushed around like a school girl, well his 100% isn't 2nd line calibre for this team.


Watch the games.

"Fall down all the time" Does that really get you off?

"and lose it every time, shoot into the goalies crest".......man, do you have NOTHING original or ACCURATE for that matter, to contribute.

You speak in Playstation Jockey, hyperbolic cliches that damn you as someone who never watches a game by your even committing them to print.

Do you even read back what you write and wonder if you have a clue about hockey..........this is a player who is selected on a nightly basis mostly on the 2nd line by a 2x PT winning coach even when coming off a spinal fracture............Now either you know more about hockey than AV and MG put together, or as I suspect, you are someone who hasn't a clue and probably doesn't watch the games ...........................how silly does that make you look?

I would have more respect for you if you just came out and said "I don't like him he is not my type of hockey player."

Edited by Bodee, 05 September 2012 - 08:22 AM.

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#186 Linden Legend

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:02 AM

The problem you have is that you only see the scoresheet. Raymond was one of our best forwards not named Sedin against the Kings. Yet the so called beasts in Kesler, Burrows, Lapierre, Higgins, were utterly invisible that entire series.

You want facts, fine:

Raymond is:

- the teams best and fastest skating forward.
- he is excellent in transition
- he uses that speed to gain the offensive zone and blow up defensive zone coverage, He is one of the few players on the team who does this well
- he is one of the teams best forecheckers, and is almost always the first player back on the backcheck
- he never takes a shift off
- unlike Booth (who makes nearly 2 million more) he actually plays defence and has shown chemistry with Kesler.
- he is very good on the PK.

There have been numerous videos already posted showing the skill that Raymond possesses, so I dont feel the need to reiterate them. Did he have a down year? Sure he did, after having his back busted. Booth and Kesler were also massive disappointments last season but they get a break for being injured, even though that make almost double what Raymond does?

Kesler was the one who brought down the 2nd line last season, not Raymond. Kesler was more of a disappointment and he came back from a far less serious injury. He was supposed to be the anchor for that line, and it seemed he completely forgot how to utilize his wingers.

Raymond deserved another shot with this team. Had the team just let him walk, it would have reflected very poorly on the organization for giving up a player who literally broke his back for this team. You dont think other NHL players would take notice of that? That perhaps his team mates might take notice of that?

You seem to have this misconception that everything is black and white, the problem is you have no ability to read between the lines. Just like the other Raymond haters on the CDC ,your blind biased is both pathetic and ignorant. Youre not a real fan, your just a bitter person looking for a scapegoat.

Don't you dare call me ignorant! What? You think you are the only person on here who watches every Canucks game? You think you are the only in here who knows anything about ice hockey? You're the only one here who bleeds blue and green?

Let me tell you something bud-I have been a fan of this team since I was 5 years old. I cannot remember the last time that I have missed a game, whether it be in the stadium, on TV, or on the radio. I cried as a kid in '94 because those guys were my sports heroes and all I wanted in the world that day was for TL and the boys to hoist the cup. And now that I am an adult, I work my a$$ off and am able to afford season tickets. I invest a boat load of time, and money in this team. I don't need to be told by some elitist on here that I am A)not a fan, B) ignorant, and C) pathetic. In my opinion, you can piss off with that attitude.

As far as Raymond ia concerned, I don't care about the score sheet, like you claim. I care about the way he plays on the ice. Ans the way he plays is selfish, soft hockey, with no grit or heart. You can defend him all you want, you will not change my opinion about him. And contrary to your beliefs, I am "fan" enough to be entitled to this opinion.

Edited by Linden Legend, 05 September 2012 - 10:41 AM.

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#187 D-Money

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:13 AM

Watch the games.

"Fall down all the time" Does that really get you off?

"and lose it every time, shoot into the goalies crest".......man, do you have NOTHING original or ACCURATE for that matter, to contribute.

You speak in Playstation Jockey, hyperbolic cliches that damn you as someone who never watches a game by your even committing them to print.

Do you even read back what you write and wonder if you have a clue about hockey..........this is a player who is selected on a nightly basis mostly on the 2nd line by a 2x PT winning coach even when coming off a spinal fracture............Now either you know more about hockey than AV and MG put together, or as I suspect, you are someone who hasn't a clue and probably doesn't watch the games ...........................how silly does that make you look?

I would have more respect for you if you just came out and said "I don't like him he is not my type of hockey player."


The coach publicly identified 'falling down' was a problem Raymond needed to work on.

Shooting 'into the goalie's crest' is just another way of saying he has a low shooting percentage, which he does. His 8.0% last season was 13th among our forwards. For a player who is supposedly top-6 calibre, that just plain sucks.

I realize your need to defend your precious Raymond. But ranting and raving against someone who brings up two solidly-based criticisms of his game is unfounded.
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#188 Hobble

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 09:16 AM

Positive: He was mentioned on HIMYM
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#189 The Kassassin Train

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:35 AM

Evreybody is looking at his downside.why don't we look at his upside.fast speedy young winger who has a hard but inaccurate shot.maybe he needs the right center.someone who can feed him the puck


Raymond has an upside?
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The key difference is that Sopel can fill in for Seabrook and Campbell just fine. Bieksa, he is garbage so in that sense he is like the worst defenseman in the league.


When Cody (Hodgson) gets older, he might be better than Datsyuk.


Let's not push this guy (Kassian). He's still immature, and if he fails on the 2nd line it's because he isn't ready. Some guys really need years to develop, it's how well and how fast players adapt to the game. In my opinion, I'd rather have Horvat getting 2nd line minutes. He will start off on the 3rd line next season but I see him making the transition, being a great compliment to whoever plays his wings.

At this point, I don't see Kassian fitting in to any role other than a 3rd. If players like Kassian start getting 2nd line minutes then we just stay inconsistent as a team.


The idiocy on CDC....

#190 Linden Legend

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:14 AM

Watch the games.

"Fall down all the time" Does that really get you off?

"and lose it every time, shoot into the goalies crest".......man, do you have NOTHING original or ACCURATE for that matter, to contribute.

You speak in Playstation Jockey, hyperbolic cliches that damn you as someone who never watches a game by your even committing them to print.

Do you even read back what you write and wonder if you have a clue about hockey..........this is a player who is selected on a nightly basis mostly on the 2nd line by a 2x PT winning coach even when coming off a spinal fracture............Now either you know more about hockey than AV and MG put together, or as I suspect, you are someone who hasn't a clue and probably doesn't watch the games ...........................how silly does that make you look?

I would have more respect for you if you just came out and said "I don't like him he is not my type of hockey player."


Do you watch the games? Rather than criticizing someone for stating FACT, maybe you should watch Raymond from a critical standpoint, rather that from the standpoint of a Canucks homer. Everything this poster said is true of Raymond. They aren't cliches, they are blatant facts about his game that you cannot see because you have the blinders on. Quite frankly, your comments make YOU look silly, not the poster you are criticising.
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#191 cIutch

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:38 AM

guuy needs to work out alittle , who cares if it takes a bit from his skating , he needs a good mixture of speed and strength
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#192 cIutch

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:41 AM

Positive: He was mentioned on HIMYM

thats a downside
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#193 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:52 AM

Don't you dare call me ignorant! What? You think you are the only person on here who watches every Canucks game? You think you are the only in here who knows anything about ice hockey? You're the only one here who bleeds blue and green?

Let me tell you something bud-I have been a fan of this team since I was 5 years old. I cannot remember the last time that I have missed a game, whether it be in the stadium, on TV, or on the radio. I cried as a kid in '94 because those guys were my sports heroes and all I wanted in the world that day was for TL and the boys to hoist the cup. And now that I am an adult, I work my a$$ off and am able to afford season tickets. I invest a boat load of time, and money in this team. I don't need to be told by some elitist on here that I am A)not a fan, B) ignorant, and C) pathetic. In my opinion, you can piss off with that attitude.

As far as Raymond ia concerned, I don't care about the score sheet, like you claim. I care about the way he plays on the ice. Ans the way he plays is selfish, soft hockey, with no grit or heart. You can defend him all you want, you will not change my opinion about him. And contrary to your beliefs, I am "fan" enough to be entitled to this opinion.


If you dont want to be called ignorant, then stop being ignorant. I hardly said I was the only one who watched all of the games , nor do I claim to be the greatest Canucks fan alive (unlike you who insisted on giving us a complete history of your fandom when really none of us could care less). You are the one acting like an elitist fan, bud.

You talk about my attitude yet it is you who is spouting of this nonsense about Raymond being 'useless' and having no skills whatsoever. You choose to completely 'ignore' the facts that I laid in front you, that is what makes you 'ignorant'. See what I did there?

You call Raymond selfish when he plays with the likes of Booth and Kesler? The same Kesler who completely disappeared in the playoffs against the Kings? And Raymond has no heart? Are you kidding me? The guy came back from a broken back that he incurred while playing for this team. An injury that very nearly ended his career. No heart?!
And if you think Raymond was the problem with the 2nd line last season, not only are you ignorant, but blind as well.

You keep throwing the words 'grit' around and I am getting so tired of the over use of this word to describe what this team needs. What exactly has the gritty Kassian brought with all his grit? What about the gritty Higgins, Burrows, Lapierre, Hansen, what exactly did all of their grittyness bring in the series against LA.

You can have any opinion you want of Raymond, thats your entitlement. As is mine to disagree with you when your so called 'opinion' is nothing more than biased and premeditated hatred for a player who nearly had his career ended for this team.
You call yourself a fan but all you really care about is the wins and losses. Well let me tell you something 'bud', this team is made up of players, and these players are people who deserve respect.

The Canucks as an organization wisely chose to give Raymond an opportunity to prove himself, as they believe in him. Given what Raymond has had to go through, I will take their opinion over yours.

Edited by 5minutesinthebox, 05 September 2012 - 12:03 PM.

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#194 Linden Legend

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 12:35 PM

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If you dont want to be called ignorant, then stop being ignorant. I hardly said I was the only one who watched all of the games , nor do I claim to be the greatest Canucks fan alive (unlike you who insisted on giving us a complete history of your fandom when really none of us could care less). You are the one acting like an elitist fan, bud.

You talk about my attitude yet it is you who is spouting of this nonsense about Raymond being 'useless' and having no skills whatsoever. You choose to completely 'ignore' the facts that I laid in front you, that is what makes you 'ignorant'. See what I did there?

You call Raymond selfish when he plays with the likes of Booth and Kesler? The same Kesler who completely disappeared in the playoffs against the Kings? And Raymond has no heart? Are you kidding me? The guy came back from a broken back that he incurred while playing for this team. An injury that very nearly ended his career. No heart?!
And if you think Raymond was the problem with the 2nd line last season, not only are you ignorant, but blind as well.

You keep throwing the words 'grit' around and I am getting so tired of the over use of this word to describe what this team needs. What exactly has the gritty Kassian brought with all his grit? What about the gritty Higgins, Burrows, Lapierre, Hansen, what exactly did all of their grittyness bring in the series against LA.

You can have any opinion you want of Raymond, thats your entitlement. As is mine to disagree with you when your so called 'opinion' is nothing more than biased and premeditated hatred for a player who nearly had his career ended for this team.
You call yourself a fan but all you really care about is the wins and losses. Well let me tell you something 'bud', this team is made up of players, and these players are people who deserve respect.

The Canucks as an organization wisely chose to give Raymond an opportunity to prove himself, as they believe in him. Given what Raymond has had to go through, I will take their opinion over yours.


First of all, I didn't ignore the list of "attributes" you wrote for Raymond. I read them, and I disagree with most of them. This does not make me ignorant, it makes me opinionated. I am entitled to this opinion, just as much as you are entitled to yours. However, my opinion of his play is neither biased or premeditated. It is based on years of watching him play. I don't make opinions about players before I see them play. Raymond has had more than his fair shot on this team, and quite frankly, it hasn't worked out. Time to move on.

Let me also say that I have never once attacked Raymond as a person. My hatred is based solely in the way he plays hockey. He is a selfish hockey player. Don't throw names like Booth and Kesler out there to prove me wrong. That's like saying "It's ok for Raymond to be selfish because there are other players on this team that are selfish as well". Well guess what? Its not ok for any of them to play selfish hockey, but given the choice, I would take either of Booth or Kesler on my team over Raymond any day.

I have also never praised the grit of Kassian. I haven't seen enough of him to have a decent opinion, therefore I will reserve any judgement until atleast seeing him for a full year. Unlike alot of people on this board, I do not think he is NHL ready, nor do I think he is the second coming of Todd Bertuzzi for us. As far as the other names you mentioned, guys like Higgins, Burrows, Hansen, and Lappierre, play hockey the right way. Those guys never take a shift off. In my opinion, I cant say the same thing about Raymond.

However, your most ridiculous comment may be that I am some sort of phony fan for caring about wins and losses. Let me ask you, what fans don't care about wins and losses? Are you tuning into games to watch these players because they are "real people" and they deserve our respect. I guarantee that you are not. You care just as much about the wins and losses as I do so spare me the sob story about these guys as real people. I don't care what these guys are like off the ice. I care what they do on the ice because on the ice they are canucks and I am a canucks fan. You are the same way so quit acting so high and mighty.

I know my opinions on Raymond are strong, but they are based on facts and years of watching him play. I strongly believe he brings nothing to the table that other players on our roster dont also bring to the table. Would we really miss him if Higgins took his spot in the top six for the full year. I believe the answer is an emphatic NO and for this reason, I view him as useless to our team.

Edited by Linden Legend, 05 September 2012 - 12:38 PM.

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#195 Snake Doctor

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:16 PM

Raymond will score 25 goals this year.
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#196 kilgore

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:37 PM

Raymond was one of our best forwards not named Sedin against the Kings.
Raymond is:

- the teams best and fastest skating forward.
- he uses that speed to gain the offensive zone and blow up defensive zone coverage, He is one of the few players on the team who does this well
- unlike Booth (who makes nearly 2 million more) he actually plays defence and has shown chemistry with Kesler.


Disagree with all of these opinions.

I think this last contract is Raymonds last shot and he knows it. I hope he steps it up, but I don't have much hope. The reason is that he's not a prima dona, which is great for the dressing room. I have nothing against him personally, he seems like a great character. But to me that implies he already HAS given his all and that means he has nothing left. If he was some prima dona that had held out and sulked on the ice for a better contract and was re-signed, I would have a lot more hope he could now step it up.

For his salary, he is one of the biggest soft spots on the team.
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#197 D-Money

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:38 PM

Raymond will score 25 goals this year.


There are numerous reasons why that will not happen - not in a Canucks jersey, anyways.

Let's assume that he improves, and plays some of his best hockey. It's still likely a shortened season (if a season at all). But if it's not shortened, then Kesler won't be playing (or playing well below 100% - his status quo lately). So I don't expect him to equal his career best playing with Malhotra, Lapierre, and/or Schroeder, no matter how great he plays.
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#198 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 01:49 PM

Disagree with all of these opinions.

I think this last contract is Raymonds last shot and he knows it. I hope he steps it up, but I don't have much hope. The reason is that he's not a prima dona, which is great for the dressing room. I have nothing against him personally, he seems like a great character. But to me that implies he already HAS given his all and that means he has nothing left. If he was some prima dona that had held out and sulked on the ice for a better contract and was re-signed, I would have a lot more hope he could now step it up.

For his salary, he is one of the biggest soft spots on the team.


So you disagree with my opinion but you dont back them up with anything relative.

Who was better than Raymond (outside of the Sedins) amongst of forward group against the Kings? An argument could be made for Booth, but I would disagree with it.
Who is a better skater amongst our forward group?
Who uses his speed and skating ability to gain the zone better? Most of the forwards play dump and chase
Who has shown better chemistry on this team with Kesler than Raymond? Certainly not Booth.

Raymond was given another opportunity because of his injury. The organization recognized what Raymond had to go through, and they realized that not giving him another opportunity to prove himself, would reflect poorly on them and how they treat their players.

Furthermore Raymond chose to settle before the arbitration hearing for less than he would have been awarded, thereby taking a paycut as a sign of good faith.
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#199 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 02:15 PM

First of all, I didn't ignore the list of "attributes" you wrote for Raymond. I read them, and I disagree with most of them. This does not make me ignorant, it makes me opinionated. I am entitled to this opinion, just as much as you are entitled to yours. However, my opinion of his play is neither biased or premeditated. It is based on years of watching him play. I don't make opinions about players before I see them play. Raymond has had more than his fair shot on this team, and quite frankly, it hasn't worked out. Time to move on.

Let me also say that I have never once attacked Raymond as a person. My hatred is based solely in the way he plays hockey. He is a selfish hockey player. Don't throw names like Booth and Kesler out there to prove me wrong. That's like saying "It's ok for Raymond to be selfish because there are other players on this team that are selfish as well". Well guess what? Its not ok for any of them to play selfish hockey, but given the choice, I would take either of Booth or Kesler on my team over Raymond any day.

I have also never praised the grit of Kassian. I haven't seen enough of him to have a decent opinion, therefore I will reserve any judgement until atleast seeing him for a full year. Unlike alot of people on this board, I do not think he is NHL ready, nor do I think he is the second coming of Todd Bertuzzi for us. As far as the other names you mentioned, guys like Higgins, Burrows, Hansen, and Lappierre, play hockey the right way. Those guys never take a shift off. In my opinion, I cant say the same thing about Raymond.

However, your most ridiculous comment may be that I am some sort of phony fan for caring about wins and losses. Let me ask you, what fans don't care about wins and losses? Are you tuning into games to watch these players because they are "real people" and they deserve our respect. I guarantee that you are not. You care just as much about the wins and losses as I do so spare me the sob story about these guys as real people. I don't care what these guys are like off the ice. I care what they do on the ice because on the ice they are canucks and I am a canucks fan. You are the same way so quit acting so high and mighty.

I know my opinions on Raymond are strong, but they are based on facts and years of watching him play. I strongly believe he brings nothing to the table that other players on our roster dont also bring to the table. Would we really miss him if Higgins took his spot in the top six for the full year. I believe the answer is an emphatic NO and for this reason, I view him as useless to our team.


If you disagree with the facts that I put out, then the proper response would be to counter with why you disagree with the points I put forward. Simply saying 'no' is not an argument, nor is it an opinion. An opinion (at least an intelligent one) is based from fact and has a thoughtful response. You supplied none of this.

I have been watching Raymond since the begining of his career as well, and have gone over his numbers thoroughly from year to year. After his career year people talk about his play decreased, but the following season he was only off his career pace by a total of 7 points, and thats after a shoulder injury, and breaking his thumb on his shooting hand. Not coincidentally, Raymonds goal total went down and his assist numbers rose in the same season that Kesler had his career season.

You keep throwing around the term 'selfish' but have yet to back up this statement with any substantiated evidence at all. What makes him selfish? And I can completely and unequivocally compare Raymonds play to that of Kesler and Booth. They play on the same line. If Kesler (who is supposed to be the anchor for that line) isnt passing the puck, how is he utilizing who wingers in any manner?

Raymond never takes a shift off, and he outplayed all of the forwards I mentioned in the series against LA. Every single one of them. That was the point, if you would actually take the time to comprehend what Ive written. All of the so called grit you speak of did absolutely nothing to help us against the Kings. None.

I never said you were some kind of phony fan, and even writing that just proves how childish you really are. I actually do care more about wins and losses with this team. I am extremely interested in a players character as that is part of makes them the type of player I want to watch. You dont think character is part of what makes a player great? And you cant guarantee anything about me because you have made it abundantly clear, you have 0 judge of character whatsoever.

As I said before, you can believe anything you want. If you think Raymond is useless (nice use of an adjective by the way, very descriptive) that is your opinion. Fortunately for us, you dont have a say in the matter, and people who clearly know much more about the game have decided that Raymond does in fact deserve a chance to prove his worth, and again I would take their opinion over yours everyday of the week.
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#200 Monteeun

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 04:23 PM

You guys are insane. All of ya.
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BAD MOVE!!!

BAD FING MOVE

HAHAHA ANOTHER INJURED MORON ON OUR TEAM

HE WILL JOIN US IN 2019

Benning will be fired next year. Hope he enjoys screwing around for a few months. I just cant believe this. Another injured BC player. We just got rid of garrison. Seems like the canucks and linden just wanted any BC born player. Doesn't matter if hes good or not. We don't need another Linden to get us to game 7 of the Stanley cup and lose. We need someone to win us a cup.

5 million a year for Vrbata? 6 million for Miller? Kesler for Bonino and 24th instead of 10th pick or one of their top prospects? Garrison for scraps?

ive already lost faith in JB. Ive never EVER had this bad of a feeling about management.

 


#201 the boards

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:02 PM

I had to laugh when I saw the other topic: "Mason Raymond's Upside" ...Locked!
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#202 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 06:45 PM

First of all, I didn't ignore the list of "attributes" you wrote for Raymond. I read them, and I disagree with most of them. This does not make me ignorant, it makes me opinionated. I am entitled to this opinion, just as much as you are entitled to yours. However, my opinion of his play is neither biased or premeditated. It is based on years of watching him play. I don't make opinions about players before I see them play. Raymond has had more than his fair shot on this team, and quite frankly, it hasn't worked out. Time to move on.

Let me also say that I have never once attacked Raymond as a person. My hatred is based solely in the way he plays hockey. He is a selfish hockey player. Don't throw names like Booth and Kesler out there to prove me wrong. That's like saying "It's ok for Raymond to be selfish because there are other players on this team that are selfish as well". Well guess what? Its not ok for any of them to play selfish hockey, but given the choice, I would take either of Booth or Kesler on my team over Raymond any day.

I have also never praised the grit of Kassian. I haven't seen enough of him to have a decent opinion, therefore I will reserve any judgement until atleast seeing him for a full year. Unlike alot of people on this board, I do not think he is NHL ready, nor do I think he is the second coming of Todd Bertuzzi for us. As far as the other names you mentioned, guys like Higgins, Burrows, Hansen, and Lappierre, play hockey the right way. Those guys never take a shift off. In my opinion, I cant say the same thing about Raymond.

However, your most ridiculous comment may be that I am some sort of phony fan for caring about wins and losses. Let me ask you, what fans don't care about wins and losses? Are you tuning into games to watch these players because they are "real people" and they deserve our respect. I guarantee that you are not. You care just as much about the wins and losses as I do so spare me the sob story about these guys as real people. I don't care what these guys are like off the ice. I care what they do on the ice because on the ice they are canucks and I am a canucks fan. You are the same way so quit acting so high and mighty.

I know my opinions on Raymond are strong, but they are based on facts and years of watching him play. I strongly believe he brings nothing to the table that other players on our roster dont also bring to the table. Would we really miss him if Higgins took his spot in the top six for the full year. I believe the answer is an emphatic NO and for this reason, I view him as useless to our team.


The fact that you made your opinion on him using the games he played in where he was NEVER fully recovered or fit from his injuries, you have either an incredibly high standard on players or you are biased against him.

The only year he was injury-free was 09-10. Make judgements based on seasons where the player has ZERO factors going against him.

Also, given the fact that you didn't really argue the fact made by 5MITB that you don't care about Kesler or Booth's poor seasons, suggests that you are just a guy who is frustrated with Raymond and is unwilling to admit the fact that your opinions about him being useless is exaggerated and unfairly stated.
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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#203 Linden Legend

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 10:24 PM

The fact that you made your opinion on him using the games he played in where he was NEVER fully recovered or fit from his injuries, you have either an incredibly high standard on players or you are biased against him.

The only year he was injury-free was 09-10. Make judgements based on seasons where the player has ZERO factors going against him.

Also, given the fact that you didn't really argue the fact made by 5MITB that you don't care about Kesler or Booth's poor seasons, suggests that you are just a guy who is frustrated with Raymond and is unwilling to admit the fact that your opinions about him being useless is exaggerated and unfairly stated.

Before commenting on a post, you should really take a moment and read what the person wrote before you misquote it.

If you actually read what I said you would see that my opinion of Raymond is based on YEARS of watching him play. I am not only including his bad games in this. I am including everything. Just because he only had one fully healthy season are we supposed to just disregard his other body of work. NO. If he wasn't fit to play, thrn he should not have been playing. If you are on the ice, then all criticism is fair game.

I also never once defended Booth or Kesler for their poor season. I simply stated that I would take either of those players over Raymond. The guy arguing my point stated that it is unfair to say that Raymond is a selfish player when both Booth and Kesler are selfish as well. This in my opinion is a terrible argument. All three are selfish. This doesn't excuse Raymond from playing this way.


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#204 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:52 PM

Before commenting on a post, you should really take a moment and read what the person wrote before you misquote it.

If you actually read what I said you would see that my opinion of Raymond is based on YEARS of watching him play. I am not only including his bad games in this. I am including everything. Just because he only had one fully healthy season are we supposed to just disregard his other body of work. NO. If he wasn't fit to play, thrn he should not have been playing. If you are on the ice, then all criticism is fair game.

I also never once defended Booth or Kesler for their poor season. I simply stated that I would take either of those players over Raymond. The guy arguing my point stated that it is unfair to say that Raymond is a selfish player when both Booth and Kesler are selfish as well. This in my opinion is a terrible argument. All three are selfish. This doesn't excuse Raymond from playing this way.


Talk about misquoting someone. I never said it was unfair to label Raymond a selfish player because Kesler and Booth are selfish. I was comparing them as players who play on the same line. A whole is only as good as the sum of its parts. You can single out Raymond all you want, but he was not the problem with the 2nd line. On one side you have an overpaid, underachieving, injury prone, player in Booth, who is so much of a liabilty on defence that they wont even put him on the PK. In the middle you have the talented but inconsistent moody Kesler, who is supposed to be the stability for that line, and in fact the playmaker. Both of these players choose not to play as a line, but instead try to do it all themselves, and they fail at it.

And you still have given zero evidence to back up this claim that Raymond is selfish. You have even admitted that Kesler and Booth and selfish yet you keep harping on Raymond? And considering that Booth makes almost double what Raymond makes, but is completely one dimensional, I'll take Raymond who gives his all every shift and can actually play defence and 2 million in Cap space.
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#205 SkeeterHansen

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Posted 05 September 2012 - 11:57 PM

Raymonds upside isn't his shot. It's alright, but he can't rely on it.

His strengths are using his speed and agility along the boards to create open space for himself to drive to the net.

We have seen this from Raymond before. A full off season of training and working out is going to do wonders.

Raymond will be the biggest surprise next season. Quote me on it.


Gotcha.
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/=S=/


#206 Drop Em

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:03 AM

So you disagree with my opinion but you dont back them up with anything relative.

Who was better than Raymond (outside of the Sedins) amongst of forward group against the Kings? An argument could be made for Booth, but I would disagree with it.
Who is a better skater amongst our forward group?
Who uses his speed and skating ability to gain the zone better? Most of the forwards play dump and chase
Who has shown better chemistry on this team with Kesler than Raymond? Certainly not Booth.

Raymond was given another opportunity because of his injury. The organization recognized what Raymond had to go through, and they realized that not giving him another opportunity to prove himself, would reflect poorly on them and how they treat their players.

Furthermore Raymond chose to settle before the arbitration hearing for less than he would have been awarded, thereby taking a paycut as a sign of good faith.


You really think that Raymond took a paycut as a sign of good faith? Give me a break! You can't honestly believe that garbage? The Canucks took the very rare stance in electing to take Raymond to cut down salary arbitration and he realized that he had no leverage at all. Do you think they'd do that if they were happy with his play? Two bad seasons in a row, and the fact that he's proven to be injury prone didn't give him much leverage or hope in having a positive outcome at his hearing. The fact that he took the pay cut had NOTHING to do with him signing the contract as a sign of his good faith, but instead was because he was afraid of the hearing process, as many are. Sometimes the truth hurts and Raymond was going to hear a lot of negative truths about his play at his hearing and he did the right thing in taking what he could get........but again, it had nothing to do with good faith.
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#207 Bodee

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 05:11 AM

Do you watch the games? Rather than criticizing someone for stating FACT, maybe you should watch Raymond from a critical standpoint, rather that from the standpoint of a Canucks homer. Everything this poster said is true of Raymond. They aren't cliches, they are blatant facts about his game that you cannot see because you have the blinders on. Quite frankly, your comments make YOU look silly, not the poster you are criticising.


Read the post again, there is nothing factual only an exaggeration (of what every player experiences on the ice) which by it's exaggeration becomes a non fact. So by extension he is NOT stating truth. They are cliches.

Cliche: a hackneyed theme, characterisation, or situation.


While Raymond has fallen down, more than other players..............certainly last season. Could it possibly be down to his injury, his lack of pre season, his inability to work on his core strength. One thing is for sure, it is not something unique to him. I have seen Daniel and others fall down last season with no one near him.

Raymond tends also to skate faster than others by the way and he is only 185lbs at 6'-0.......on the margin for critical COG maybe?
Would you deny it might be easier to lose an edge the faster you skate, in a hockey context?

The point is, does it markedly affect his game?

Well if he is played on a nightly basis, mostly on the 2nd line and usually playing 14+ mins I can only assume it doesn't to any great extent............and yet it features time after time on here, by people who only see HIS occasional frailties while giving other other players a free pass on theirs.

Would you really like your son judged in such a way if you had one and he played hockey. I would hope not.

The IMPORTANT critical fact is he is constantly picked and usually on the 2nd line.................that is a FACT.
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#208 riffraff

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:19 AM

Read the post again, there is nothing factual only an exaggeration (of what every player experiences on the ice) which by it's exaggeration becomes a non fact. So by extension he is NOT stating truth. They are cliches.

Cliche: a hackneyed theme, characterisation, or situation.


While Raymond has fallen down, more than other players..............certainly last season. Could it possibly be down to his injury, his lack of pre season, his inability to work on his core strength. One thing is for sure, it is not something unique to him. I have seen Daniel and others fall down last season with no one near him.



Raymond tends also to skate faster than others by the way and he is only 185lbs at 6'-0.......on the margin for critical COG maybe?
Would you deny it might be easier to lose an edge the faster you skate, in a hockey context?


The point is, does it markedly affect his game?

Well if he is played on a nightly basis, mostly on the 2nd line and usually playing 14+ mins I can only assume it doesn't to any great extent............and yet it features time after time on here, by people who only see HIS occasional frailties while giving other other players a free pass on theirs.

Would you really like your son judged in such a way if you had one and he played hockey. I would hope not.

The IMPORTANT critical fact is he is constantly picked and usually on the 2nd line.................that is a FACT.


Daniel may fall occasionaly - all payers do. But when Daniel needs to remain on his feet, he does. And thats with the leagues top opposition on him like a dirty shirt. Comparing Raymond to Daniel in any context is laughable.

so even if this is true, is this an attribute to want in a player we have on our team? a perimeter player, prone to falling because he has a "center of gravity" issue?

judging a child who is unlikely to make the nhl while playing amateur hockey for fun is vastly different than judging a professional payed millions to perform a job

Edited by riffraff, 06 September 2012 - 06:20 AM.

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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#209 nuck nit

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:13 AM

For what Raymond is being paid he can provide defensive coverage and have the upside of a breakout year offensively.
Either way,he is a bargain at the price and can be used for trade bait,if need be.
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#210 Bodee

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 08:18 AM

Daniel may fall occasionaly - all payers do. But when Daniel needs to remain on his feet, he does. And thats with the leagues top opposition on him like a dirty shirt. Comparing Raymond to Daniel in any context is laughable.

so even if this is true, is this an attribute to want in a player we have on our team? a perimeter player, prone to falling because he has a "center of gravity" issue?

judging a child who is unlikely to make the nhl while playing amateur hockey for fun is vastly different than judging a professional payed millions to perform a job


Morally, no it's not. It is still unfair if the criticism is biased, exaggerated and takes no account for previous injury, or the players other positive attributes, of which Raymond has many..........including speed, which may just have an effects on his occasional falls.

Just because a person earns a lot of money does not make decent, balanced criticism any less applicable. To say otherwise makes you out to be just another one of the jealous fans who being riddled with envy, can't wait to join the jackals in slandering their next victim.

Like Raymond, I don't think Daniel or any other player for that matter has a choice on when he will lose an edge.

By the way I suggested the COG may only have been an issue if he failed to get the proper training due to his injury layoff........I didn't imply it was inherent.

Edited by Bodee, 06 September 2012 - 08:19 AM.

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