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We Should Stop Looking At Raymonds Down Side


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#211 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:06 PM

Bodee, what is with your man crush on Raymond? What has he done to warrant such admiration from you?
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#212 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:27 PM

Before commenting on a post, you should really take a moment and read what the person wrote before you misquote it.

If you actually read what I said you would see that my opinion of Raymond is based on YEARS of watching him play. I am not only including his bad games in this. I am including everything. Just because he only had one fully healthy season are we supposed to just disregard his other body of work. NO. If he wasn't fit to play, thrn he should not have been playing. If you are on the ice, then all criticism is fair game.

I also never once defended Booth or Kesler for their poor season. I simply stated that I would take either of those players over Raymond. The guy arguing my point stated that it is unfair to say that Raymond is a selfish player when both Booth and Kesler are selfish as well. This in my opinion is a terrible argument. All three are selfish. This doesn't excuse Raymond from playing this way.


I didn't misquote anything, you're just being incredibly picky with the wording. Ok, fine. You looked at the past "years". Okay, how many seasons has he had since 09-10 (the previous seasons doesn't count since he was a rookie obviously) where he was 100% healthy?

No, criticism isn't "fair game" just because he's okay enough to be playing. That's literally the epitamy of unfair judgment, ergo your judgement of a man who has never been 100% healthy, fit and ready to play since the end of the 09-10 rgular season is NOT fair.

Sure, you never defend Booth or Kesler, okay, but how come you're not uttering so much as one word of criticism for them? If you base your opinions off of their performances over the past few years, you shouldn't even be considering Booth since he sucked, and since you ignore injuries you might as well cross out Booth's concussion and start calling for his head. Kesler sucked the entire season last year, but it;'s fine because he wasn't fully recovered. I agree with you view on Kesler because it isn't fair to judge his 11-12 performance since he was injured.

My main point is that whatever you claim to do, there is still bias against Raymond. The only situation where I couldn't make an argument against you is if Raymond was 100% healthy and his ppg was something like 0.25. You know what's really funny? Despite the injuries, Raymond's career year (09-10) is only around 0.1-0.2 points per game better. Know what that means? He's only been producing around one point more every five games when he was supposedly doing fine.

So, the numbers suggest he isn't so useless, the management suggests he isn't so useless, but only your personal opinion based on what you saw (which is honestly only what you remember or chose to remember, as selective memory is very common for opinionated people) suggests he is useless. So all in all, it's becoming more and more clear with each post you upload that you just don't want Raymond on this team but you can't really provide a solid, incontrovertible argument so you say "Hey, I saw him play. I know hockey so take my word on it".
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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#213 Bodee

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 04:23 PM

Bodee, what is with your man crush on Raymond? What has he done to warrant such admiration from you?


I believe in fairness. I watch all the games and plenty of other teams on GameCenter Live. There is nothing wrong with Raymond's skill levels, speed, defence or production when fit. He also puts in a hard shift night after night. While not now a youngster (at 26/7) he is still young in playing terms with probably his best days ahead of him if he stays fit.

Some months ago I posted a list of players who while being paid more, often much more, do not have either the production or the potential of Raymond.

A few examples.......not one of them would be worth Raymond in a straight trade.

Troy Brouwer.....$2.35 .....33 points from 82
Frolik....$2.3 M........15 points from 63
Matt Stajan .....$3.5.....18 points from 61
Roman Cervenka .....$3.77.......has no NHL pedigree at 26.
Stepniak ......$2,5 ............28 points from 61
Ville Leino.....$4.5......25 points from 71
Vic Antropov....$4.0 .....35 points in 69
Joel Ward -------$3.0 ......18 points from 73
Nikolai Kulemin.....$2.8.....28 points from 70
Mathew Lombardi .....$3.5.......18 points from 62
Michal Hanzus .......$2.5 .......24 points from 67
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#214 Riviera82

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 06:59 PM

Watch the games.

"Fall down all the time" Does that really get you off?

"and lose it every time, shoot into the goalies crest".......man, do you have NOTHING original or ACCURATE for that matter, to contribute.

You speak in Playstation Jockey, hyperbolic cliches that damn you as someone who never watches a game by your even committing them to print.

Do you even read back what you write and wonder if you have a clue about hockey..........this is a player who is selected on a nightly basis mostly on the 2nd line by a 2x PT winning coach even when coming off a spinal fracture............Now either you know more about hockey than AV and MG put together, or as I suspect, you are someone who hasn't a clue and probably doesn't watch the games ...........................how silly does that make you look?

I would have more respect for you if you just came out and said "I don't like him he is not my type of hockey player."


I watch all the games I can and when I cant watch, I listen to the radio.
What part of my post was inaccurate? You failed to mention that and instead just attacked me within your tirade.
Nobody knows why Raymond is put on the 2nd line. My guess is that he doesn't fit anywhere else within the team, so he's either on the 2nd or he's in the press box.
I dont know what MGs reasoning is for not dumping Raymond, but we all know that AV plays favorites and that is a fact.
Raymond sucked before his injury and has been a one-hit wonder so far in his career, 09/10.
I dont care whether you respect me or not Bodee, I know that I would respect you a bit more if you hid your boner for Raymond a little better though.
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#215 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 07:36 PM

I watch all the games I can and when I cant watch, I listen to the radio.
What part of my post was inaccurate? You failed to mention that and instead just attacked me within your tirade.
Nobody knows why Raymond is put on the 2nd line. My guess is that he doesn't fit anywhere else within the team, so he's either on the 2nd or he's in the press box.
I dont know what MGs reasoning is for not dumping Raymond, but we all know that AV plays favorites and that is a fact.
Raymond sucked before his injury and has been a one-hit wonder so far in his career, 09/10.
I dont care whether you respect me or not Bodee, I know that I would respect you a bit more if you hid your boner for Raymond a little better though.


Once he grew and matured a bit, started playing with some good linemates and was receiving some support, Raymond was a very effective player (this was 09-10). Since then, he hasn't had a single full season. He missed 12 games in 10-11, and missed 27 in 11-12. He didn't have any off-season training and missed training camp last year. He was taken off the powerplay and had his minutes reduced.

He broke his fingers multiple times, which affects his shot (something everybody seemed to complain about). He was still producing adequately to not be useless (around 0.4 ppg, only 0.2 ppg lower than his career year). There you go, some facts. You happy now? I doubt you are, because unlike most anti-Raymond people, I actually gave statistics and facts to back up my argument, not opinionated, judgemental and insulting comments like "he falls down, he can't score, he doesn't go to the dirty areas". None of those statements, even IF true, goes with the statistics, as according to FACTS, Raymond is actually producing at a rate similar to that of 09-10, given the fact that he got taken off the PP and is playing around 1-2 shifts less.

You can stop arguing now, you have nothing more to say.

Edited by LordofBrussels, 06 September 2012 - 07:36 PM.

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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#216 hackamore

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 09:48 PM

Why do some of us defend him, maybe because so many Raymond naysayers keep throwing out the same rhetoric in each and every topic were his name is mentioned. He falls, he shoots at goalies chests, he plays on perimeter and looses pucks, only had one good season ect. Opinions, yes, but more often than not, not substantial points of debate. Many of the derogatory comments thrown out in this forum by fans and by the supposedly unbiased media won't make me alter my opinion of Raymond [ or any player for that matter]. But they often cause me to question the source where they came from and in the case of the media, the agenda they have in their quest to get more of us to buy their papers or listen to their talk shows.

Many fans have held the same perspective of him since he came into the league, even the year he had his 50 plus points he was not appreciated by everyone. He is never going to put another player through the boards or be overly physical, it is not his game and heaven forbid you play in the NHL without that trait under your belt. There have been several articles published showing how useful a player he was before his injury, but many of you still throw out the same 'he was useless even before he was hurt' commentary, completely disregarding anything positive about him. To have made it this far in the NHL, if you all watch as closely as you say you do, and know as much as you claim you do, you would acknowledge he is not as bad as you make him out to be, he just does not play the brand of hockey you want him to.

Vancouver holds their players to a high character standard. Management and the Canuck coaching staff have all commented several times on the fact he would come to practice early, work out with skills coach at every opportunity, and how much effort he made to return to the game after breaking two vertebrae. While he probably is nowhere close to being voted into sainthood, he doesn't go out to hurt opposing players, make controversial embarrassing remarks in the media, beat up cab drivers, or have drunk pictures taken from the Roxy. He and his wife have been actively involved in several charity endeavors for the community since coming to Vancouver representing the team proudly. Maybe some of us just see all these contentious posts as a character assassination of a player who has had as rough a year as any Canuck I can think of. You don't have to put on homer glasses and see every player on the team as perfect, but for the players like Mason and Ballard who have fallen out of favor in Vancouver many of the remarks come off as spiteful and discourteous. Your home team should not be a hostile environment to play in.


Quote from a Pass it to Bulis article: The average fan who doesn't care about advanced statistics can still look back at his 2009-10 season when he broke out with 25 goals and 53 points and wonder where that production has gone. Raymond was even a late call up to Team Canada in the World Championships after the Canucks were eliminated from the playoffs. That breakout season earned Raymond a 2-year, $5.1 million contract extension. Unfortunately, his production appeared to sharply drop off the following season, starting the criticism.
Yes, I said “appeared.” While Raymond scored just 15 goals and 39 points in 2010-11, that drop in points wasn’t as bad as it may seem. With Ryan Kesler promoted to the first powerplay unit, the second powerplay unit lost its primary scoring threat and subsequently its identity. Raymond went from 8 powerplay goals and 18 powerplay points to 2 powerplay goals and just 6 powerplay points, largely because the second powerplay unit rarely saw the ice. Raymond’s average powerplay ice time dropped by over 40 seconds per game.
At even-strength, Raymond’s point production actually improved, though it again doesn’t seem like it at first glance. Raymond went from 35 even-strength points to 32 in 2010-11, but did so in 12 fewer games and with more than a minute less in average ice time per game.
In 2009-10, Raymond scored 1.87 even-strength points per 60 minutes of ice time. In 2010-11, he scored 2.06.
But the main reason Canucks fans who care about advanced stats defended Raymond was that his possession numbers were simply ridiculous. Raymond’s Corsi numbers weren’t just good last year, they were the best on the team. He continually drove play into the offensive end of the ice using the skills we’ve frequently highlighted on PITB. It might be easiest to understand his impact last season by pointing out that he allowed the fewest even-strength shots against per 60 minutes of ice time than any other player on the Canucks.
All this is to show that, despite his drop in point production, Raymond still contributed both offensively and defensively last season. When he was on the ice, the opposition shots were few and far between and the puck was mostly in the offensive zone.
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#217 WHL rocks

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:17 PM

dl

Edited by WHL rocks, 06 September 2012 - 10:17 PM.

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#218 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 10:50 PM

I believe in fairness. I watch all the games and plenty of other teams on GameCenter Live. There is nothing wrong with Raymond's skill levels, speed, defence or production when fit. He also puts in a hard shift night after night. While not now a youngster (at 26/7) he is still young in playing terms with probably his best days ahead of him if he stays fit.

Some months ago I posted a list of players who while being paid more, often much more, do not have either the production or the potential of Raymond.

A few examples.......not one of them would be worth Raymond in a straight trade.

Troy Brouwer.....$2.35 .....33 points from 82
Frolik....$2.3 M........15 points from 63
Matt Stajan .....$3.5.....18 points from 61
Roman Cervenka .....$3.77.......has no NHL pedigree at 26.
Stepniak ......$2,5 ............28 points from 61
Ville Leino.....$4.5......25 points from 71
Vic Antropov....$4.0 .....35 points in 69
Joel Ward -------$3.0 ......18 points from 73
Nikolai Kulemin.....$2.8.....28 points from 70
Mathew Lombardi .....$3.5.......18 points from 62
Michal Hanzus .......$2.5 .......24 points from 67


Well makes sense, he could be worse.

I was just wondering, wasn't trying to insult you. (if you took it that way)

I don't hate Raymond, I do make jokes at his expense (but I do that with every player on this team) but at the end of the night he plays for this team and I cheer for him regardless.
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#219 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 11:21 PM

You really think that Raymond took a paycut as a sign of good faith? Give me a break! You can't honestly believe that garbage? The Canucks took the very rare stance in electing to take Raymond to cut down salary arbitration and he realized that he had no leverage at all. Do you think they'd do that if they were happy with his play? Two bad seasons in a row, and the fact that he's proven to be injury prone didn't give him much leverage or hope in having a positive outcome at his hearing. The fact that he took the pay cut had NOTHING to do with him signing the contract as a sign of his good faith, but instead was because he was afraid of the hearing process, as many are. Sometimes the truth hurts and Raymond was going to hear a lot of negative truths about his play at his hearing and he did the right thing in taking what he co uld get........but again, it had nothing to do with good faith.


Do you understand that in an arbitration hearing the players salary can only be cut down 15% at the very most? So I don't have to believe it, it's a fact. Had this gone to arbitration he would have gotten more, it's that simple. Raymond chose to settle before the arbitration hearing as the Canucks made his an offer he thought was reasonable. Do you really think the Canucks wanted to go to arbitration? It's a common tactic to take a player to arbitration to avoid the possibility of a player getting offer sheets they would have to match to keep a player. It was the obvious choice as they knew they would get Raymond for a discount, and they wouldn't lose him for nothing. All while giving Raymond another season in a low risk high reward scenerio.

Injury prone is not used to describe a player who broke his thumb one season and then had his back broken the next, you don't seem to have much grasp of the concept.
Two seasons ago Raymond was only 7 points off of his career year (pace) even with the broken thumb and shoulder injury. Not exactly a horrible season. Then last season he comes in with no preseason training and after being in a brace for 6 months, and you were expecting what exactly?! And he was still our best forward against the Kings not named Sedin.

You dont have a clue about the arbitration process, so dont pretend like you do. The fact of the matter is Raymonds injuries are actually in his favor in arbitration. What would he be afraid of hearing? These are grown men, not children. And it would be anything that they hadnt already heard from the coaching staff.

Edited by 5minutesinthebox, 06 September 2012 - 11:53 PM.

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#220 Drop Em

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 12:36 AM

You understand that in an arbitration
I don't have to believe it, it's a fact. Had this gone to arbitration he would have gotten more, it's that simple. And because the Canucks took him to arbitration they would have had to pay. Raymond chose to settle before the arbitration hearing. And another thing smart guy, it's a common tactic to take a player to arbitration to avoid the possibility of a player getting offer sheets they would have to match to keep a player. It was the obvious choice as they knew they would get Raymond for a discount, and they wouldn't lose him for nothing. All while giving Raymond another season in a low risk high reward scenerio. Injury prone is not used to describe a player who broke his thumb one season and then had his back broken the next, you don't seem to have much grasp of the concept. Two seasons ago Raymond was only 7 points off of his career year (pace) even with the broken thumb and shoulder injury. Not exactly a horrible season. Then last season he comes in with no preseason training and after being in a brace for 6 months and you were expecting what exactly?!


No idea what you're trying to say with your first two sentences but as for the rest... So, you think that Raymond would have gotten more, yet he somehow decided that he'd take less strictly out of the goodness of his heart? I'm not too sure what kind of delusional drinks that you're slamming back but you should share so that the rest of us can all slip into the fanatsy world that you live in. Maybe you missed the part that had the Canucks take the very rare stand of taking Raymond to cut down arbitration. Do you not understand this concept? This means that they not only didn't think that he was deserving of a raise but that he was more deserving of a pay cut. So, you thinking that Raymond would have gotten more, is laughable. Now, and I'll try to keep this simple for you, your employer will not do this to you, if they think that you're playing up to expectations and living up to your potential. Raymond knew that he had no leverage, especially after the Canucks took him to cut down arbitration after having two consecutive poor years as well as having a pathetic history throughout his career of playoff futility. Plus, it's no secret that players aren't fans of going to arbitration because of the brutal honesty that teams are forced to bring up in regards to the weaknesses in a players game. Like I said, the truth hurts and many players don't like to hear the truth about the shortcomings in their games. This is FACT and if you can't deal with it, then that's your problem.

As for Raymond getting an offer sheet from another team, that might be one of the stupidest things that I've heard, as nobody was going to offer him an offer sheet, although the Canucks would have welcomed it, because it would have allowed them to take any compensation and leave him to be someones elses problem. Again, your delusional if you think that teams were lining up to sign Raymond to an offer sheet.

As for him being injury prone, you have admitted that he's had a broken thumb, a shoulder injury and a back injury all within the last two years. Would this not mean that Raymond has some injury issues and could be shown to be recently fragile? Three injuries in 2 years for a guy who's idea of physical contact is when he falls on his ass to the ice with nobody around him, is questionable.

As for what I was expecting from Raymond, I wasn't expecting much. There might be teams out there who can use a player of his ilk but the Canucks aren't one of them.
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#221 Bodee

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:50 AM

I watch all the games I can and when I cant watch, I listen to the radio.
What part of my post was inaccurate? You failed to mention that and instead just attacked me within your tirade.
Nobody knows why Raymond is put on the 2nd line. My guess is that he doesn't fit anywhere else within the team, so he's either on the 2nd or he's in the press box.
I dont know what MGs reasoning is for not dumping Raymond, but we all know that AV plays favorites and that is a fact.
Raymond sucked before his injury and has been a one-hit wonder so far in his career, 09/10.
I dont care whether you respect me or not Bodee, I know that I would respect you a bit more if you hid your boner for Raymond a little better though.


Well there we have it. Condemned out of your own mouth. You are seriously saying that AV AND MG would play a player on the second line night after night when he could be shuttled down the lines or as you point out put in the press box or maybe even have gone to Chicago?

According to you he must be one of the worst players in the League......Is it not more logical to have him "suck" on the 3rd or 4th rather than the 2nd line?........and playing for so many minutes too, how weird is that?....and yet he is on the 2x PT 2nd line and not only that, he was one of the few decent performers in the playoffs.

How do you get through the doors in your house with that massive ego supporting the enormous hockey "brain"?

"Nobody knows".............you mean you are so twisted by bias that YOU don't know. If you need the reason he plays explained to you (though I think you are incapable of rationalising it) read hackamore's post above.

Everything you say is made inaccurate by your propensity to exaggerate to the extent of making you look ridiculous.........If you had concentrated when you read my post above you would have seen I have already explained that to you.

There is a facility on the internet called "youtube" why don't you feed Mason Raymond's name into it and spend some time trying to understand the talent of the boy instead of looking pathetic "stroking your dislike" of him on here.


Edited by Bodee, 07 September 2012 - 01:53 AM.

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#222 Linden Legend

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:06 AM

I have posted numerous times in this thread and I think I have made my feelings of Mason Raymond known...I don't like him.

Some of you on here clearly support Raymond and think that he should be given an infinite amount of chances to succeed. That is fine as well.

However, I am posting right now as a peace offering. This thread has officially become ridiculous.

Understand that we are wasting time and energy on Mason Raymond. I mean really think about that. All this bickering for a pseudo top 9 forward who will maybe get 15 goals this year...if we don't trade him first.

Can we stop? Please?!

I don't like him and no amount of arguing with me will change my opinion on him.

Bodee likes him and no amount of arguing will convince him otherwise.

Lets just give it a rest people and agree to disagree.
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#223 Riviera82

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 07:11 AM

Well there we have it. Condemned out of your own mouth. You are seriously saying that AV AND MG would play a player on the second line night after night when he could be shuttled down the lines or as you point out put in the press box or maybe even have gone to Chicago?

According to you he must be one of the worst players in the League......Is it not more logical to have him "suck" on the 3rd or 4th rather than the 2nd line?........and playing for so many minutes too, how weird is that?....and yet he is on the 2x PT 2nd line and not only that, he was one of the few decent performers in the playoffs.

How do you get through the doors in your house with that massive ego supporting the enormous hockey "brain"?

"Nobody knows".............you mean you are so twisted by bias that YOU don't know. If you need the reason he plays explained to you (though I think you are incapable of rationalising it) read hackamore's post above.

Everything you say is made inaccurate by your propensity to exaggerate to the extent of making you look ridiculous.........If you had concentrated when you read my post above you would have seen I have already explained that to you.

There is a facility on the internet called "youtube" why don't you feed Mason Raymond's name into it and spend some time trying to understand the talent of the boy instead of looking pathetic "stroking your dislike" of him on here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHmSiIsz74I


Raymond doesn't have the skill necessary to play on the first line. He doesn't have the grit to play on the third line. Finally, he doesn't have the toughness to play on the fourth line. If he doesn't play on the second line then he doesn't play at all. He is one of AV's favorites, kind of like the Aaron Rome of the forward group, therefore he plays whether he sucks or not. This is what I was getting at.
Maybe I've been too hard on Raymond, I just dont like what I've seen from him every season except 09/10.
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#224 Bodee

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:25 AM

As Linden Legend says...........let's leave it at that then.

If we don't get a season this year I think I'll take up interior decorating. Jeez I am bored with the close season. I've given up Sky Sports because football (soccer to you guys) was boring me rigid and I was watching hockey most nights anyway.

Don't make me come over there Bettman!

Ps I've posted some nice Scotland/Edinburgh videos over on my "Any of you guys want to play in Scotland" thread on the General Hockey Discussion site............if you are interested.

Edited by Bodee, 07 September 2012 - 08:28 AM.

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#225 SukhKular

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:34 AM

Maybe he should work out with Gary Roberts.
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#226 Riviera82

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 08:45 AM

As Linden Legend says...........let's leave it at that then.

If we don't get a season this year I think I'll take up interior decorating. Jeez I am bored with the close season. I've given up Sky Sports because football (soccer to you guys) was boring me rigid and I was watching hockey most nights anyway.

Don't make me come over there Bettman!

Ps I've posted some nice Scotland/Edinburgh videos over on my "Any of you guys want to play in Scotland" thread on the General Hockey Discussion site............if you are interested.


Fair enough sir, it's left.
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#227 5minutesinthebox

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:16 PM

No idea what you're trying to say with your first two sentences but as for the rest... So, you think that Raymond would have gotten more, yet he somehow decided that he'd take less strictly out of the goodness of his heart? I'm not too sure what kind of delusional drinks that you're slamming back but you should share so that the rest of us can all slip into the fanatsy world that you live in. Maybe you missed the part that had the Canucks take the very rare stand of taking Raymond to cut down arbitration. Do you not understand this concept? This means that they not only didn't think that he was deserving of a raise but that he was more deserving of a pay cut. So, you thinking that Raymond would have gotten more, is laughable. Now, and I'll try to keep this simple for you, your employer will not do this to you, if they think that you're playing up to expectations and living up to your potential. Raymond knew that he had no leverage, especially after the Canucks took him to cut down arbitration after having two consecutive poor years as well as having a pathetic history throughout his career of playoff futility. Plus, it's no secret that players aren't fans of going to arbitration because of the brutal honesty that teams are forced to bring up in regards to the weaknesses in a players game. Like I said, the truth hurts and many players don't like to hear the truth about the shortcomings in their games. This is FACT and if you can't deal with it, then that's your problem.

As for Raymond getting an offer sheet from another team, that might be one of the stupidest things that I've heard, as nobody was going to offer him an offer sheet, although the Canucks would have welcomed it, because it would have allowed them to take any compensation and leave him to be someones elses problem. Again, your delusional if you think that teams were lining up to sign Raymond to an offer sheet.

As for him being injury prone, you have admitted that he's had a broken thumb, a shoulder injury and a back injury all within the last two years. Would this not mean that Raymond has some injury issues and could be shown to be recently fragile? Three injuries in 2 years for a guy who's idea of physical contact is when he falls on his ass to the ice with nobody around him, is questionable.

As for what I was expecting from Raymond, I wasn't expecting much. There might be teams out there who can use a player of his ilk but the Canucks aren't one of them.


Read the edited post and get back to me. Raymond would have gotten more than he got from the Canucks had it gone to arbitration. Is it really that difficult to grasp? He accepted less from the Canucks and both sides avoided going to arbitration. Im not sure how more clear I can be. I never said he was getting a raise. Comprehension is obviously not your friend.

I stated in my previous post that they took him to arbitration with the idea of cutting his salary down. But you can only cut a players salary by 15% at most you twit. Learn to read. There is no way an arbitrator would have awarded the Canucks a 15% reduction in Raymonds salary given his injury. Yet Raymond agreed to a paycut of 13.5% (approx). Are you really too thick to put it together?

i would love you to show me where all of these players are concerned about going to arbitration, yet it is actually the players who most often file for arbitration. These guys arent concerned about having their feelings hurt. These are grown men and if they are not performing they hear about it from the coaching staff. Its not like there would be something new brought up that they didnt already know or havent already heard. You are truly clueless.

I never said teams were lining up to sign him to an offer sheet, I said that its a common tactic for teams to take a player to arbitration to avoid it. There are plenty of players in the league who make much more than Raymond and are no where near as productive. Someone listed them earlier in the thread so Im not going to bother reiterating it. The Canucks took him to arbitration to save what? 250 k. Well that will certainly come in handy later when we are up against the Cap. The fact is someone very might have offered him more than the Canucks wanted to spend, and the only return they would get is a 2nd round pick at most. They have a lot invested in Raymond and they happen to believe he can recover and play to a level comparable to where he was.

And to insinuate that a player is injury prone when none of his injuries are related to one another in absurd. A broken thumb (10 games), shoulder injury (2 games) is not exactly what I would call injury prone nor fragile. This is a two way game, whether he is physical or not is not the point. Most injuries happen when players get hit not when hitting someone else, or do you not understand that? And on top of that the broken thumb was caused by an errant puck when blocking a shot.

The Canucks want Raymond on the team. They think he deserves another opportunity given what he had to go through. So you can sit there and pout and spout all you want, but the fact remains he is on the team, like it...or dont, I could care less.
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#228 SamJamIam

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 03:38 PM

Many CDCers seem to get the idea of a "team" confused. The team is not the ideal in your head of an all-star team that would never meet the cap that has won every stanley cup since they first formed. The team is a collection of players and staff that battle each game for theirs and your enjoyment. Those are the hard-working people you support, and the only people who you should have an issue with are the people that don't wish success for the team. People who work their butts off to come back after breaking their backs should be practically saints to true fans. No advanced stats change the critics' minds though, even if empirically he is a good second liner. But that's because the Mayray critics are just bandwagoners who want results from the team that coincidentally represents the city they live in.

Choose a new team. The nucks are too classy for you.
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#229 Hockey Fever

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Posted 07 September 2012 - 10:46 PM

We're forced to look at his downside because of the amount of times he falls face first in to the ice.

I'm sure we'd all love to see his upside.


Totally agree, he's so frustrating and i don't think he'll change unfortunately ?
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#230 Moonshinefe

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 03:34 AM

Many CDCers seem to get the idea of a "team" confused. The team is not the ideal in your head of an all-star team that would never meet the cap that has won every stanley cup since they first formed. The team is a collection of players and staff that battle each game for theirs and your enjoyment. Those are the hard-working people you support, and the only people who you should have an issue with are the people that don't wish success for the team. People who work their butts off to come back after breaking their backs should be practically saints to true fans. No advanced stats change the critics' minds though, even if empirically he is a good second liner. But that's because the Mayray critics are just bandwagoners who want results from the team that coincidentally represents the city they live in.

Choose a new team. The nucks are too classy for you.


You can use all the 'advanced statistics' you want, but Raymond's point and goal totals were sub par offensive numbers for being a 2nd liner on an elite team. Yes, he deserves respect for battling back from injury and everyone would like it if he has a bounce back season.

I don't see, though, where you get off calling those who disagree with your opinion "bandwagoners" and that they need to choose another team and don't have class. You don't have to like every single player on a team to like it or cheer for it, a point which you apparently missed somehow. So no, people who dislike Mason Raymond aren't automatically bandwagoners. I don't recall any posts on here "not wishing success for the team"--and painting people who aren't fans of his as such is dishonest.
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#231 ChuckNORRIS4Cup

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 01:40 PM

Evreybody is looking at his downside.why don't we look at his upside.fast speedy young winger who has a hard but inaccurate shot.maybe he needs the right center.someone who can feed him the puck


Last time I checked he played like that for about 2 games after returning to the team after his back injury, and then some how for the rest of the season he looked worse, he felt to comfortable again. Also he doesn't need someone to feed him the puck more, he needs to learn how to feed other players the puck sooner then later, and prevent himself from skating around the whole offensive zone, and then falling down and losing the puck.
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#232 Drop Em

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:18 PM

Read the edited post and get back to me. Raymond would have gotten more than he got from the Canucks had it gone to arbitration. Is it really that difficult to grasp? He accepted less from the Canucks and both sides avoided going to arbitration. Im not sure how more clear I can be. I never said he was getting a raise. Comprehension is obviously not your friend.

I stated in my previous post that they took him to arbitration with the idea of cutting his salary down. But you can only cut a players salary by 15% at most you twit. Learn to read. There is no way an arbitrator would have awarded the Canucks a 15% reduction in Raymonds salary given his injury. Yet Raymond agreed to a paycut of 13.5% (approx). Are you really too thick to put it together?

i would love you to show me where all of these players are concerned about going to arbitration, yet it is actually the players who most often file for arbitration. These guys arent concerned about having their feelings hurt. These are grown men and if they are not performing they hear about it from the coaching staff. Its not like there would be something new brought up that they didnt already know or havent already heard. You are truly clueless.

I never said teams were lining up to sign him to an offer sheet, I said that its a common tactic for teams to take a player to arbitration to avoid it. There are plenty of players in the league who make much more than Raymond and are no where near as productive. Someone listed them earlier in the thread so Im not going to bother reiterating it. The Canucks took him to arbitration to save what? 250 k. Well that will certainly come in handy later when we are up against the Cap. The fact is someone very might have offered him more than the Canucks wanted to spend, and the only return they would get is a 2nd round pick at most. They have a lot invested in Raymond and they happen to believe he can recover and play to a level comparable to where he was.

And to insinuate that a player is injury prone when none of his injuries are related to one another in absurd. A broken thumb (10 games), shoulder injury (2 games) is not exactly what I would call injury prone nor fragile. This is a two way game, whether he is physical or not is not the point. Most injuries happen when players get hit not when hitting someone else, or do you not understand that? And on top of that the broken thumb was caused by an errant puck when blocking a shot.

The Canucks want Raymond on the team. They think he deserves another opportunity given what he had to go through. So you can sit there and pout and spout all you want, but the fact remains he is on the team, like it...or dont, I could care less.


Ok, so I was planning on keeping it classy by not resorting to name calling but since I believe in playing by the same rules, I have no problems lowering myself to your pedestrian level and won't take being called names by some uninformed bitch like you on this site.

Read the edited post? How about you post properly the first time and not waste everyones time when you decide to change your mind? Or more accurately, you realized that you're a complete idiot and don't know what the hell you're talking about and try to change your post after realizing that you make no sense. I post based on your original post, not on your updated one. It's not my fault if you try to change your tune after realizing that you're wrong. Your opinion, whether it's edited or not, really doesn't matter that much to me. Hopefully even a putz like you can comprehend that.

You didn't post squat about the Canucks taking Raymond to cut down arbitration, I did that, you idiot! You said that Raymond took a pay cut out of good faith and I responded to that BS comment. Since it's obvious that you're not very bright, I guess I will have to explain it to you again, and I'll go as slow as I can for you. He(Raymond) didn't have much of a choice of whether he was going to take a pay cut. The team(The Canucks) took him to cut down arbitration, to do one thing and that's to CUT DOWN HIS SALARY! There are plenty of guys who negotiate their contracts before the arbitration hearing takes place but almost everyone of them were not taken to cut down arbitration. So, instead of Raymond trying to get a pay increase, he was negotiating to make sure that he wasn't taking the maximum pay cut allowed. So, instead of possibly taking the 15% pay cut, he negotiated a 13.5% cut. So, for Raymond to accept that much of a cut, it's not out of the realm of possibility that the arbitrator would have awarded the 15% cut if given the chance. And instead of Raymond taking that chance, he took the best offer that he could get. So, for you to say that he would have gotten more obviously wasn't a guarantee now was it?
In the grand scheme of things, is Raymond making more or less money that what he was last year? Thanks, it's less, and it's not less because he was showing good faith but because he knew that he wasn't going to get a raise. He was trying to minimize the pay cut that he was going to get and it had nothing to do with him showing good faith, which is the original coment that you made that I had issue with before you went on about this babbling diatribe about this, that and the other.

It's also quite obvious that you haven't been following the game for long because if you had, you'd know that most players HATE going to arbitration hearings and that's why a good percentage of arbitration cases never get to the hearing stage. Most players, and not just Canucks, have said how hard the arbitration hearing is. Most people who have followed hockey, or most sports for that matter, have heard numerous players say how hard those hearings can be. It's not cool hearing your employer ripping into you and bringing up all of your faults. The players have said that themselves that it's very hard to listen too. So, they're obviously not as immune to having their feeling hurt as what you seem to think they are. It's one thing to get yelled at and told what you're doing wrong in practice or a game, because it's almost always constructive criticism, but it's quite another sitting across a table and getting told by guys that are paying your pay checks how bad your game is in certain areas. If you can't figure this out them you're a bigger moron that what you've already made yourself out to be.

If someone were to have given Raymond an offer sheet and the Canucks were given a 2nd round pick as compensation, they would have taken that pick in a second. Even the most ardent Raymond fans would have to take that deal. The Canucks would be lucky to get a late round pick for him at this point on the trade market. As for Raymond living up to the level comparable to where he was, are you talking about his one career year where he had a whopping 50 or so points, or are you talking about the rest of his career where he's turned out to be a soft player who will chip in a mediocre 15 goals a year?

So, let me get this straight, because a player might get injured often but because his injuries might not be related to each other, that player cannot be considered injury prone? What the hell are you talking about? If a guy breaks his toe, bruises a shin, strains his hamstring, tears his ACL, pulls a buttocks muscle, pulls his groin, nerniates a disc in his back, pulls an abdominal muscle, cracks a rib, dislocates a finger, breaks his hand, separates a shoulder, breaks his jaw and has a concussion, yet because none of those injuries were related to one another, that player can't be considered injury prone? Crack is whack and I suggest you lay off it Jack, especially with moronic comments like that!
I don't give a **** how a player,or anyone for that matter, gets hurt, if they hurt themselves repeatedly, they are injury prone. Injury prone = PRONE TO INJURY!!! I don't think that Raymond can be considered injury prone yet, but is definitely heading in that direction considering his recent history. And if you don't think that physical players are going to be more succeptible to injury than a less physical player, based on their style of play, then there's no hope for you at all. Unless you're Sami Salo, physical type of players are more likely to be injured than a non physical player. In football terms, who's more likely to be injured, the kicker or the middle linebacker. Since you probably don't know, I will tell you it's the linebacker and that's because he's more physically involved in more plays. Percentages you bonehead, look it up!

We shall see if the Canucks really want Raymond on the team or not or if he's used as a throw in and or a contract trade. Gillis has said that he wants to get bigger and stronger and Raymond is neither of those. He has not shown much chemistry with anyone, and that can't be everyone elses fault. But we shall see what happens, I just hope that you have your blankie ready if the Nucks decide to trade him because I'd hate to see how many tears that you're going to shed if your little boy crush, yes the one who according to you took a pay cut out of the goodness of his heart(still laughing at that one), isn't in a Canucks uniform for much longer.
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#233 Ugli Fruit

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:08 PM

I have posted numerous times in this thread and I think I have made my feelings of Mason Raymond known...I don't like him.

Some of you on here clearly support Raymond and think that he should be given an infinite amount of chances to succeed. That is fine as well.

However, I am posting right now as a peace offering. This thread has officially become ridiculous.

Understand that we are wasting time and energy on Mason Raymond. I mean really think about that. All this bickering for a pseudo top 9 forward who will maybe get 15 goals this year...if we don't trade him first.

Can we stop? Please?!

I don't like him and no amount of arguing with me will change my opinion on him.

Bodee likes him and no amount of arguing will convince him otherwise.

Lets just give it a rest people and agree to disagree.


I would only do so if this post wasn't so laughable. There are so many things wrong about this post that I don't know if I can get to all of them.

1. In a previous post, you said you only judged Raymond's ability to play the game, and nothing else. Now you just come out and say, "I don't like him". So then, we can pretty much ignore your arguments since now we know all of it was bias, like I suggested before.

2. We never, ever said he should be given "infinite amounts to succeed". If that's what you concluded after we said, "he should be given another chance since he was injured a lot and was forced into very difficult situations", you might need some remidial English classes.

3. How has the thread become useless? For once, there are a number of posts being made with very solid arguments as to why Raymond should be offered another chance. Previous threads didn't really show it this clearly. Are you... Worried?

4. Actually, nobody is really "wasting" their time and energy. Nobody on this forum is forced to post these things. If they want to do so, they're not wasting anything. Really, "pseudo top 9 forward who will maybe get 15 goals this year...if we don't trade him first"? You literally suggested stopping this discussion (which is counter-productive on a forum) and then gave out your opinion once again for criticism. Why do you still feel the need to bash the guy?

Sure, if you don't change your mind that's that. But I won't simply stop posting just because you want peace. Of course, I won't ever resort to profanities or anything, I'm going to try my level best to stay polite enough.

Just remember that Raymond's even strength production is better now than before. Remember that he got his PP time cut to nothing. Remember the injuries. Don't only remember how he falls a lot.
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Formerly known as LordofBrussels

There we have it folks, we have literally blamed everyone for everything at this point


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#234 CanucksSayEh

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 08:58 PM

It will be a sad day when he is no longer a nuck, hopefully it's not anytime soon.
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#235 Bananas

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Posted 12 September 2012 - 04:16 PM

We're forced to look at his downside because of the amount of times he falls face first in to the ice.

I'm sure we'd all love to see his upside.


So what you're trying to say is that Raymond should fall backwards now and then?
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Hey CDC! Remember this!?

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#236 D-Money

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Posted 13 September 2012 - 11:32 AM

I believe in fairness. I watch all the games and plenty of other teams on GameCenter Live. There is nothing wrong with Raymond's skill levels, speed, defence or production when fit. He also puts in a hard shift night after night. While not now a youngster (at 26/7) he is still young in playing terms with probably his best days ahead of him if he stays fit.

Some months ago I posted a list of players who while being paid more, often much more, do not have either the production or the potential of Raymond.

A few examples.......not one of them would be worth Raymond in a straight trade.

Troy Brouwer.....$2.35 .....33 points from 82
Frolik....$2.3 M........15 points from 63
Matt Stajan .....$3.5.....18 points from 61
Roman Cervenka .....$3.77.......has no NHL pedigree at 26.
Stepniak ......$2,5 ............28 points from 61
Ville Leino.....$4.5......25 points from 71
Vic Antropov....$4.0 .....35 points in 69
Joel Ward -------$3.0 ......18 points from 73
Nikolai Kulemin.....$2.8.....28 points from 70
Mathew Lombardi .....$3.5.......18 points from 62
Michal Hanzus .......$2.5 .......24 points from 67


Here is where your bias starts to show.

Troy Brouwer - Threw 247 hits! Scored 18 goals (4th on his offense-starved team)

Michael Frolik - Has struggled in regular season for the Hawks, but showed up big when it counted. Scored 4 goals in his first 11 playoff games (Raymond has 2 in his last 29). He cracked 20 goals twice (Raymond has only done it once). Plus, he's a year-and-a-half younger than Mason, so he has more room to improve.

Roman Cervenka - Dude has scored 54 goals in 105 KHL regular season games, and another 16 goals in 32 playoff games. (Scores more than Radulov, and keeps scoring in the playoffs to boot.) He could turn out to be an absolute BEAST. And if he doesn't pan out, it's a one-year, heavily bonus-laden contract, so there's no risk there.

Nikolai Kulemin - Raymond is two years removed from a 25 goal season, but only a year ago Kulemin scored 30. If I'm going to gamble on a guy with recent struggles, I'd take Nikolai.


If any of those four were offered straight-up for Raymond, only a fool wouldn't take it and run.

Edited by D-Money, 13 September 2012 - 11:33 AM.

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#237 PlayoffHockey

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:56 AM

Anyone else think we should stop looking at Raymonds Down Side ?

im sick of looking at him period.

Edited by PlayoffHockey, 06 May 2013 - 02:16 AM.

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"I haven't been a supporter of the Canucks for long. Mainly because firstly I knew nothing about NHL GL and secondly ESPN America only started showing NHL 3 years ago. I was unattached to any team when I first started watching although I could easily have gone for the Philadelphia Flyers as my home team which I supported in my youth and for 20 years was the Fife Flyers."
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#238 Raph

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:58 AM

Is this guy even on the freaking ice? His TOI says 12:33 but I don't remember him doing anything.
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Untouchables: Tanev, Jensen, Kassian
Mostly untouchable: Sedins (need someone to man the fort and no trade value)
Open to trade: Everyone else
Drive to airport: Bieksa, Edler

Bring back: Ehrhoff

#239 lee goren rulez69

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 02:02 AM

lol @ this thread, mason raymond has never been a playoff performer and never will be. good thing he is gone once we get eliminated :) :emot-parrot: :emot-parrot: :emot-parrot:
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