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#61 Sanj

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 05:34 PM

Sundin-before and after he monumentally screwed up he kept spinning it and to this day I hear " Sundin built Kesler and the Twins" .

Yeah,right.Twenty million dollars says Gillis had no idea what he was doing.


ummm....the twins themselves said that if it wasn't for Sundin they wouldn't be having the career years they did

#62 BoKnows53

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 05:40 PM

I agree he should basically say we have gutless players and everybody is for sale at any time, thats what a good gm would do, right op. Never complement a member of our team because that's over hyping.

#63 samurai

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:12 PM

I agree he should basically say we have gutless players and everybody is for sale at any time, thats what a good gm would do, right op. Never complement a member of our team because that's over hyping.


Dude you obviously like many posters on this site see the world in black and white terms. It is this or that. that approach in life works some of the time, but in most cases it just exposes oneself as erratic.

Good GM's do not oversell, they promote and of course explain their decisions as objectively as they can. MG does this most of the time, but he does have a tendency to over-hype players. My point is that seems to be a carryover from his agent days where he was very much in the business of selling

#64 Common sense

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:57 PM

Ten million dollars for eight points.Fair trade.We would have been lucky to pay him twenty million for another year.

Nine goals in 41 games.What an example to the team.Three goals in the post season. Ten million dollars ,no make it twenty.

Was it that Mats that came in here out of shape and AV would not play him?

Was it that Mats that carried the Canucks,showing them the way with a -5 year end performance?

Was it that Mats that held out to go to New York,as in the Rangers,as in the team that is most despised in Canucks history?

Was it that Mats that finished the season with half the goals scored compared to Kyle Wellwood,who was on an entry level contract that never saw the PP time Mats enjoyed? Half the goals scored but twenty times the salary.Nice move.

Was it that Mats Sundin that was outscored by Taylor Pyatt,Mason Raymond,Kevin Bieksa and Steve Bernier?

Oh,yeah,that Mats.


The same Mats that was the credit for the sedins' and Kesler's development.

Did you glance over my post where I called you out on your BS of a lie (that it was media who pumped Mats' tires)?

#65 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 06:58 PM

Are you noobs back in action again? The same noobs that think they can do a better job then Gillis? If your one of those noobs kindly say who you think can do a bettter job then Gillis. You guys are frackin pissing me already. You guys slam Gillis, call him, overrated, call him arrogant, ok, THEN WHO THE frack DO YOU THINK CAN DO A BETTER JOB?????? Not one of you noob have mentioned who you think can do a better job, but just sit in front of your computer ranting on Gillis. W.T.F! You guys think it's an easy job doing what He does? So explain who you noobs rather have as our gm!.

Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#66 Common sense

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:01 PM

that's the twins and Kes having class. Of course they are going to say things like that. Do you really think he had that big an impact on their game? If he made every player on every team he ever played 20-30 points better the Leafs would have won several cups and set records for goals scored. Why couldn't he translate that skill to Toronto players if that's the case? That's typical MG fluff, as if the twins or Kes wouldn't be teh same players if it wasn't for those 40 games 3 years ago. C'mon, be serious.


... because Toronto players sucked at that time (still do, but I digress).


My post was to refute what nuck nit said about Sundin, that "Sundin built Kesler and the Twins." Of course, it's not MG who said it, but the players who skated alongside 13.

#67 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:02 PM

Are you noobs back in action again? The same noobs that think they can do a better job then Gillis? If your one of those noobs kindly say who you think can do a bettter job then Gillis. You guys are frackin pissing me already. You guys slam Gillis, call him, overrated, call him arrogant, ok, THEN WHO THE frack DO YOU THINK CAN DO A BETTER JOB?????? Not one of you noob have mentioned who you think can do a better job, but just sit in front of your computer ranting on Gillis. W.T.F! You guys think it's an easy job doing what He does? So explain who you noobs rather have as our gm!.



ummm....the twins themselves said that if it wasn't for Sundin they wouldn't be having the career years they did

exactly. I remember this like yesterday, of course it's going to be real hard to find him links, because they said it 3 years ago, and to some extent, we forgot were, maybe on television? Cause I flat out remember then saying it, not only that, Burrows is also a different player because of him! Because of him 4 players are a different level, Sedins from average 1st line players to art ross trophy winners, Kesler from a guy that was already solid player, from a 3rd line player, to a 40 goal scorer and a selke trophy winner, and Burrows from just a 3rd line grinder, to a player with 6 abilities to making team Canada, these little things matter, why the hell are the slamming a bad signing??? I was excited when that signing happened. It was only 1 year contract, and it gave a huge boost to the team because at that time we were missing another top 2 centerman, as we just lost Morrison. These noobs never give up.

Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#68 Common sense

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:03 PM

Are you noobs back in action again? The same noobs that think they can do a better job then Gillis? If your one of those noobs kindly say who you think can do a bettter job then Gillis. You guys are frackin pissing me already. You guys slam Gillis, call him, overrated, call him arrogant, ok, THEN WHO THE frack DO YOU THINK CAN DO A BETTER JOB?????? Not one of you noob have mentioned who you think can do a better job, but just sit in front of your computer ranting on Gillis. W.T.F! You guys think it's an easy job doing what He does? So explain who you noobs rather have as our gm!.


As a follow-up, I hear Columbus is looking for a GM. Any armchair GMs wanna take a stab at that crapshow?

#69 Finaddict

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:14 PM

Sundin-before and after he monumentally screwed up he kept spinning it and to this day I hear " Sundin built Kesler and the Twins" .

Yeah,right.Twenty million dollars says Gillis had no idea what he was doing.


It wasn't 20 million for Christ's sakes. Get yor facts straight
Chuck Norris ain't got nothing on these Canucks

#70 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 07:35 PM

They are still bound by the cap, we bring players up and down all the time. Each one factors into the cap. They can only spend X amount on their current roster. Just like us, just like everybody else. How come we can demote...... say Bitz and it affects the cap, yet if they want to send down Redden it's cap circumvention? Huh?

Redden didn't count towards their cap at all this season. He was waived and then not invited to training camp. It has been deemed 'legal cap circumvention.'

Surely the NHL didn't envision that large a salary being stuck in the minors, no matter how rich the team was, but the Rangers are likely waiting for the new cba to provide them a more affordable buyout option.

Meanwhile, there is blatant cap circumvention going on. They blame it on Redden's declining play, but c'mon, it's all salary based. If Redden was making $1mil to $2mil, would he still have been demoted? Probably not as quickly or as permanently.

This is a typical post-cap move for the rich franchises that have cap issues. Philly disappeared Hatcher and Rathje. NJ disappeared Mogilny. TO disappeared Finger. But this Redden one was by far the biggest one. Without that move and the shady trade of Scott Gomez to a dumbfounded Pierre Gauthier, they are not in the playoffs right now, let lone round 3.

So yes, they could havr cleared room for Sundin. That wasn't even an issue at the time. Cheers.


TOML
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#71 tiredatwork

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:14 PM

Redden didn't count towards their cap at all this season. He was waived and then not invited to training camp. It has been deemed 'legal cap circumvention.'

Surely the NHL didn't envision that large a salary being stuck in the minors, no matter how rich the team was, but the Rangers are likely waiting for the new cba to provide them a more affordable buyout option.

Meanwhile, there is blatant cap circumvention going on. They blame it on Redden's declining play, but c'mon, it's all salary based. If Redden was making $1mil to $2mil, would he still have been demoted? Probably not as quickly or as permanently.

This is a typical post-cap move for the rich franchises that have cap issues. Philly disappeared Hatcher and Rathje. NJ disappeared Mogilny. TO disappeared Finger. But this Redden one was by far the biggest one. Without that move and the shady trade of Scott Gomez to a dumbfounded Pierre Gauthier, they are not in the playoffs right now, let lone round 3.

So yes, they could havr cleared room for Sundin. That wasn't even an issue at the time. Cheers.


TOML


To be honest I really don't understand what you are talking about. Why is it shady to trade a bad contract to a moron of a gm? That's the trick, Florida is getting better by dumping bad contracts just like the Rangers did. Where we circumventing the cap when we acquired Reinprecht?
Of course he was let go because of his cap hit. Sending players to the minors has been around for awhile, that's not new.
Do you finish your texts off with a cheers? Every thought... cheers...........why?

#72 tiredatwork

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 08:23 PM

... because Toronto players sucked at that time (still do, but I digress).


My post was to refute what nuck nit said about Sundin, that "Sundin built Kesler and the Twins." Of course, it's not MG who said it, but the players who skated alongside 13.


They are class guys. Pretty sure they said the same thing about AV, Crow, god, their coach in Sweden, their peewee coach, their parents, their grandparents..........
Ever watch an awards ceremony? Ever notice a lot of the winners thank various people and say they couldn't have done it without them. You understand that they actually probably could have done it without certain people, right?
To take something like that so literally is just ridiculous.
If that was literally true, wouldn't that make Sundin the greatest coach of all time?
Sundin was in TO before the salary cap, they Leafs had a lot of talent there. For some reason his magic didn't rub off there, weird.

#73 resdog

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:31 PM

They are class guys. Pretty sure they said the same thing about AV, Crow, god, their coach in Sweden, their peewee coach, their parents, their grandparents..........
Ever watch an awards ceremony? Ever notice a lot of the winners thank various people and say they couldn't have done it without them. You understand that they actually probably could have done it without certain people, right?
To take something like that so literally is just ridiculous.
If that was literally true, wouldn't that make Sundin the greatest coach of all time?
Sundin was in TO before the salary cap, they Leafs had a lot of talent there. For some reason his magic didn't rub off there, weird.

Exactly...which is why this entire thread is so ridiculous. To single out Gillis, any player, manager, agent etc...., is just plain stupid. Almost every professional sports figure will try to 'sell' their interview. Whether that is a GM selling the media and fans on an acquisition/trade, or a player not disparaging a current/former teammate.

The OP is dead wrong. Gillis doesn't do anything that almost all other GM's in all other pro sports have always done. It has nothing to do with being a former agent....which the OP was also wrong in saying that Gillis is the only former agent (see Burke and Fletcher as off the top of my head examples).
Perception is 9/10ths of the flaw

#74 samurai

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:06 PM

Exactly...which is why this entire thread is so ridiculous. To single out Gillis, any player, manager, agent etc...., is just plain stupid. Almost every professional sports figure will try to 'sell' their interview. Whether that is a GM selling the media and fans on an acquisition/trade, or a player not disparaging a current/former teammate.

The OP is dead wrong. Gillis doesn't do anything that almost all other GM's in all other pro sports have always done. It has nothing to do with being a former agent....which the OP was also wrong in saying that Gillis is the only former agent (see Burke and Fletcher as off the top of my head examples).



Let's clarify things 'dead wrong'. First MG went from agent to GM. Burke was an agent for a short time and then went into hockey management and worked his way up to GM. Gillis is I believe the first GM to go from agent to GM. Show me another GM who has done that? Chuck fletcher went the same route as well agent to management and working his way up.

What is new about Gillis as opposed to previous managers and many managers around the league is that on a number of occasions there is a big gap between his hype and what we actually see on the ice. It is so obvious at times which makes me conclude that it is a byproduct from his long agent career.

This whole Sundin thing is an example as well. Gillis at the time called him one of best players in the league and one of only a few who would be worth a 10 million. The whole he changed the way we approach the game is partial respect for him but was also propaganda for sure. Remember the Sedins won a gold with him so did they learn nothing from him prior to Van. Of course they are going to credit Sundin with everything because he is a legend in Sweden.

In poker you watch for people's tendencies and Gillis is from all accounts a good game player - but his tendency to over hype a player like he is trying to make a sell is a clear weak point of him as a manager. What it means as a critical fan is that you need to be cautious when he is telling you this player is great. My first recognition of this came with Bernier. Can toss in Pavel (RIP) as well. Mike at times tries to sell up players that we know aren't that good or are declining. Kassian was a huge overhype - seeing this kid play i thought why were we not told how green and raw this kid was.

Edited by samurai, 15 May 2012 - 10:08 PM.


#75 resdog

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:45 PM

Let's clarify things 'dead wrong'. First MG went from agent to GM. Burke was an agent for a short time and then went into hockey management and worked his way up to GM. Gillis is I believe the first GM to go from agent to GM. Show me another GM who has done that? Chuck fletcher went the same route as well agent to management and working his way up.

Now I get why TOML can't comprehend what you're trying to say. You responded to another poster, stating that MG was the only GM who was a former agent. Now you clarify what you actually meant.

In the end.....dead wrong.
Perception is 9/10ths of the flaw

#76 resdog

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:52 PM

This whole Sundin thing is an example as well. Gillis at the time called him one of best players in the league and one of only a few who would be worth a 10 million.

Are you saying that Sundin was NOT one of the best players in the league?
Was there someone else available on December 18th that was worth $10M...w/o giving up a roster player, prospect or draft pick?

Explain how that is over-hyping.
Perception is 9/10ths of the flaw

#77 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 10:54 PM

To be honest I really don't understand what you are talking about. Why is it shady to trade a bad contract to a moron of a gm? That's the trick, Florida is getting better by dumping bad contracts just like the Rangers did. Where we circumventing the cap when we acquired Reinprecht?
Of course he was let go because of his cap hit. Sending players to the minors has been around for awhile, that's not new.
Do you finish your texts off with a cheers? Every thought... cheers...........why?

To be honest you're making me tired of responding.

When. You. Bury. An. Unwanted. Contract. In. The. Minors. You. Are. Circumventing. The. Cap.

Off topic, but Florida just acquired a bad contract in Campbell and signed another one in Jovo. GM Tallon admitted himself that he had no choice but to sign up bad deal after bad deal because it was the market, Florida's ownership gave the go-ahead and they needed to improve. They are merely updating their bad contracts.

Reinprecht was over in Europe when we traded for him. He never played a game as a Canuck. Were we circumventing the cap? No. But i guess he helped out the Wolves, eh? Jesus, is that the best example you can come up with?

Hey, back on topic. Yes, i know that burying contracts is not new. Did you miss the overall point? That being the Rangers could've done that to make room for Sundin?

And back to the cheers thing. Did you also blank out when i already responded to that? 'Tired At Work', right? Are you dropping a hint that you're narcoleptic? WAKE UP! Lol. Your posts make me wish i can slap you awake through my monitor. It's freakin' dangerous going around opening up lines of discussion with 'I don't understand.' Please try to understand. It's not that hard. Regards. Er, i mean cheers.


TOML

"This is a quote. It is saying that you should not care what i text. I'm not going to text you. It also says 'Cheers.' LOLZ!!1!"
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#78 samurai

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:55 PM

Are you saying that Sundin was NOT one of the best players in the league?
Was there someone else available on December 18th that was worth $10M...w/o giving up a roster player, prospect or draft pick?

Explain how that is over-hyping.


Check Sundin's stats dude - do a little of the mental work yourself. Your long term memory may not allow to recall things that far back but I posted this. According to the Toronto Sun at that start of the 2008 season Sundin was the 35th best player in the league.

http://www.torontosu...992001-sun.html

#79 resdog

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:33 AM

Check Sundin's stats dude - do a little of the mental work yourself. Your long term memory may not allow to recall things that far back but I posted this. According to the Toronto Sun at that start of the 2008 season Sundin was the 35th best player in the league.

http://www.torontosu...992001-sun.html


Really??? Using the Toronto Sun as the source of your logic??? That is just plain sad but I'll play along....

There are 23 roster players per team X 30 teams = 690 players
Sundin ranked 35th puts him in the top 6%

I ask again.... how does this not rank him as one of the best in the league? In what world does the top 6% not count as 'one of the best'?

I notice that you conveniently decided not to answer my question regarding what other player was available at the time.....I'm sure you just overlooked it and will get to it soon.

Edited by resdog, 16 May 2012 - 02:40 AM.

Perception is 9/10ths of the flaw

#80 Fozzy

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 02:57 AM

Redden didn't count towards their cap at all this season. He was waived and then not invited to training camp. It has been deemed 'legal cap circumvention.'

Surely the NHL didn't envision that large a salary being stuck in the minors, no matter how rich the team was, but the Rangers are likely waiting for the new cba to provide them a more affordable buyout option.

Meanwhile, there is blatant cap circumvention going on. They blame it on Redden's declining play, but c'mon, it's all salary based. If Redden was making $1mil to $2mil, would he still have been demoted? Probably not as quickly or as permanently.

This is a typical post-cap move for the rich franchises that have cap issues. Philly disappeared Hatcher and Rathje. NJ disappeared Mogilny. TO disappeared Finger. But this Redden one was by far the biggest one. Without that move and the shady trade of Scott Gomez to a dumbfounded Pierre Gauthier, they are not in the playoffs right now, let lone round 3.

So yes, they could havr cleared room for Sundin. That wasn't even an issue at the time. Cheers.


TOML


This.

#81 samurai

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 03:56 AM

Really??? Using the Toronto Sun as the source of your logic??? That is just plain sad but I'll play along....

There are 23 roster players per team X 30 teams = 690 players
Sundin ranked 35th puts him in the top 6%

I ask again.... how does this not rank him as one of the best in the league? In what world does the top 6% not count as 'one of the best'?

I notice that you conveniently decided not to answer my question regarding what other player was available at the time.....I'm sure you just overlooked it and will get to it soon.



It's not a 'source' its a 'reference' or a 'piece of history' to highlight the point or help you remember that back then Sundin was not considered anymore one of the top players in the league - was still very good. Remember he ended up being the highest paid player that year because Gillis called him one of the few players in the league that is worthy of 10 million - most people at the time found Gillis's comments and the salary to be a little over the top.

As for your other question that has nothing to do with being convenient, the point is irrelevant to my argument that Gillis tend's to overhype players.

#82 Gino Odjick

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 07:43 AM

As a follow-up, I hear Columbus is looking for a GM. Any armchair GMs wanna take a stab at that crapshow?


Already did... in GM mode of NHL 12. Won the cup twice in a row and then I moved to NYI. Of course, you can't win the cup by simming your entire season. So you have to jump in every so often and play God. You know, make some ridiculous trades, play the odd game etc. Before you can say "franchise" you have Stamkos, Giroux, Doughty, and a few others.

#83 TheCammer

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:48 AM

The contract offer was 20 million and Mats wanted so bad to go to New York that he finally decided to work half a year for half a year's pay and did not even show up the next year.What a hero.Not.

Regards,

NN

Your posts are why I vote to bring back the minus. You spout out non-truths and conjecture and try and pretend it is an informed opinion. You are constantly negative on management, coaching and personnel. Is there anything, truly anything you like about this group?
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#84 D-Money

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:54 AM

Maybe he just wants to talk positively of the players so they feel supported and respected?

Maybe he feels that, even if they don't succeed, other players will appreciate that their GM has their back, and doesn't needlessly talk smack about them?

Maybe that will help attract free agents, and convince existing players to take less to stay in such a positive environment?

Maybe this thread just...sucks?
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#85 canacks1970

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 12:18 PM

Sundin-before and after he monumentally screwed up he kept spinning it and to this day I hear " Sundin built Kesler and the Twins" .

Yeah,right.Twenty million dollars says Gillis had no idea what he was doing.

Sundin-before and after he monumentally screwed up he kept spinning it and to this day I hear " Sundin built Kesler and the Twins" .

Yeah,right.Twenty million dollars says Gillis had no idea what he was doing.




And you know this for sure? I'm not saying your wrong nuckwit. I kept hearing on previous interviews from Kesler and the Twins that Sundin did help out alot in the dressing room.

#86 Primal Optimist

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:57 PM

I generally have to agree with TOMapleLaughs over the course of this entire thread.

Sundin was the best available at the time, pursuing him was just as much about keeping him from our competitors as it was about putting him on the ice and in the room in Vancouver. 5m was money well spent by the owner, the media money talks have no bearing on the conversation, as a good and also sneaky and well playing GM is going to use every tool at his disposal to keep other teams out of the mix for a targeted player. If say, The Team 1040 starts talking about a 20million dollar offer, that works well for the GM who is talking away from the microphone to a player about a reduced work load by coming in late in the season, and gearing up for a playoff run, doesn't it? Sundin coming here for a while and helping mature and groom our star players so that they can dominate the league for another 5, 6 or 7 years sounds pretty smart to me. Talking out loud about '20 million' also seems really smart to me, as no doubt it deterred other offers to a degree when small market or cap tight teams read about it.

As for over-hyping our players? I have not seen one example that has any merit, except for his kind words about Rypper post mortem, and no one would say otherwise in that situation, as it is bad form.

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#87 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:05 PM

Sundin-before and after he monumentally screwed up he kept spinning it and to this day I hear " Sundin built Kesler and the Twins" .

Yeah,right.Twenty million dollars says Gillis had no idea what he was doing.

The guy who paid the 20 million says you're wrong.
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#88 samurai

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:41 PM

I generally have to agree with TOMapleLaughs over the course of this entire thread.

Sundin was the best available at the time, pursuing him was just as much about keeping him from our competitors as it was about putting him on the ice and in the room in Vancouver. 5m was money well spent by the owner, the media money talks have no bearing on the conversation, as a good and also sneaky and well playing GM is going to use every tool at his disposal to keep other teams out of the mix for a targeted player. If say, The Team 1040 starts talking about a 20million dollar offer, that works well for the GM who is talking away from the microphone to a player about a reduced work load by coming in late in the season, and gearing up for a playoff run, doesn't it? Sundin coming here for a while and helping mature and groom our star players so that they can dominate the league for another 5, 6 or 7 years sounds pretty smart to me. Talking out loud about '20 million' also seems really smart to me, as no doubt it deterred other offers to a degree when small market or cap tight teams read about it.

As for over-hyping our players? I have not seen one example that has any merit, except for his kind words about Rypper post mortem, and no one would say otherwise in that situation, as it is bad form.



100% cheese

#89 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:38 AM

Good argument.

Here's mine: Cheese > Horsesh_t.
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#90 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 08:45 AM

Good argument.

Here's mine: Cheese > Horsesh_t.


Yeah but...

Horsesh_t > this ridiculous topic.

I will say this this thread has been fantastic. It's like it brought together all the whiny arm chair 'know it alls' that weren't already residing in the AV getting an extension thread.

It's pretty clear there are a few users here that see MG in the title and pull out a checklist of garbage that if said enough times they figure must be true.
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