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[Article] Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr...henrik Sedin


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#31 etsen3

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 11:35 PM

Gretzky would likely be an 80-100 point guy if he was in the NHL now.


Seriously? That would mean he would have less than half the amount of points he had in his best years with the Oilers and Kings. The 80's were very high scoring but they weren't so high scoring that the number of goals was over double what it is today. Remember Gretzky managed to put up 90 points at age 38 in the middle of the dead puck era. I would say that if Gretzky was in his prime today he could put up 140-150 points a year, which is still ridiculously good. Unless of course you mean that Gretzky would put up 80-100 points at his current age:P

And people will say that Wayne Gretzky wouldn't be as good today because he wasn't as well conditioned as the modern players are. That right there is a weak argument, because if Wayne Gretzky really did play today he would have access to the same nutrition and fitness training that the current players do.

Edited by etsen3, 21 May 2012 - 11:36 PM.

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#32 bure's triple deke

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:25 AM

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I can believe Henrik Sedin is even the greatest playmaker in recent history. Joe Thornton has had four 90-point+ seasons while Henrik Sedin has only had two, and his career high of 92 assists and 114 points in 2006-07 has not been surpassed by Henrik. In fact, in the 2005-06 season, he split 96 assists and 125 points between the Boston Bruins and San Jose Sharks. Henrik's 83-assist season in 2009-10 doesn't come very close to matching it. Some would argue Thornton's peak was higher than Henrik's.

Henrik is a valuable playmaker, but this league has recently seen an arguably greater run of playmaking performances in Joe Thornton. Between 2003 and 2007, Thornton was a very dominant player in the NHL. He even turned Jonathan Cheechoo into a 56-goal scorer.


Thanks for this reply; I'll get back to it in a sec, but first... A lot of the posts have unfortunately been centred around this misguided Henrik vs. Gretzky debate. Given that this is where the discussion seems to be going going, might as well address it. I realize that the title of my post could have implied this comparison, but that's really not what the article's about. There's no debate. Gretzky's the best there ever was and Henrik is one of many good-going-on-great playmakers.

Regarding this Gretzky-playing-today and Henrik-in-the-80's argument...I think both sides are taking their points wayy too far. Henrik would not have 200 points and Gretzky in his prime would not only have 100 today. There's a post above that sums it up pretty nicely. There's a 25% difference in the level of scoring from the 80's and today's NHL. Statistically, that means that Gretzky's best total might have been 161 today instead of 215. And Henrik's career best 113 or so might have been 141 in the 80's. End of discussion there.

Regarding Henrik vs. Thornton.. I appreciate that many people might not think Henrik is better. But I think in the past three years, he definitely has been. Overall career-wise and comparing the two players' peaks it's definitely a closer call. I think I actually would give the edge to Thornton. His career assists per game (0.70) is 0.05 better than Henrik's and he's proven that he can do it over a longer period of time (1077 games played vs 892). We'll have to see what their numbers look like when they're both retired.. I'm sure it'll still be close. And even then, it's not all about the stats.
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#33 Sugar baby watermelon

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:32 AM

I'd still take Henrik over Jumbo Joe any day of the week, it's the homer in me, by far the better captain, the classier guy, and he doesn't resort to sticking his stink finger in someones face while talking to the referee. (Even though it was dumb it was funny to watch)
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#34 sedinaliens2233

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:40 AM

Eye roll...
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#35 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:09 AM

Good post by the OP, but I can't believe the people below him who are saying Hank is as good a playmaker as Gretzky. Yes, the 80's were higher scoring that the current era, and I'm sure the Sedins would have put up a ton of points in the 80's and would probably be Hall of Famers. But as good as The Great One?

When Gretz put up his career high for assists in 85/86 with 163, he had a full 70 assists more than the next closest player, Mario Lemieux. In the mid 80's, there were roughly 7.5 goals scored per game. Now there are roughly 5.5, which is about 25% less. If Henrik were playing in 85-86, he would still have to nearly double his career high total for assists in a season. Like I said, I admit that if the Sedins played in the 80's they would probably be known as all time greats today. But Gretzky himself was just on a whole other level. There's a reason he had more assists in his career than the 2nd all time leading scorer had points.

yeah because lemieux's career was affected by illness and at times debilitating back injury .
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#36 Burnsey

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:12 AM

I knew Henrik got a lot of Assits but didn't realise he led the league for consecutive years. Surprise I didn't see a topic on it tbh. Very good read :)
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#37 ajhockey

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:31 AM

Gretzky would likely be an 80-100 point guy if he was in the NHL now.


I've calculated it before. Statistically he turns out to be about 150 points at his peak in today's offense levels.

Edited by ajhockey, 22 May 2012 - 03:31 AM.

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#38 needtogetswole

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:43 AM

I've calculated it before. Statistically he turns out to be about 150 points at his peak in today's offense levels.


want to let us know how you calculated it?
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#39 sedated

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:56 AM

Henrik and Thornton are both kind of junk in the playoffs.

Assists don't really matter to me because of second assists. IF you took those out, then to me, they'd be more important. Honestly, there's been times where I've seen Raymond and Kesler play SO BAD during the year and they get points directly from second assists, and people seem to give them some slack for it.

Another guilty part is our D. Most of the time Edler and Bieksa mooch points like mad from assists on the PP.

Edler can't create plays worth crap on his own, nor can Bieksa. Ehrhoff was at least a decent passer, but Edler and Bieksa have made a living off of passing to Henrik on the boards and letting him do they heavy lifting.

Kesler's stats would honestly take a nose dive, as would Raymond's I think.
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#40 bd71

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:18 AM

Gretzky's point totals in the heart of the dead puck era as a 36-39 year old are 102, 97, 90 and 68 in his last year.

Henrik is great but he's not head and shoulders above anyone in he league. He is on a great run but it's debatable that he is even a Hall of Famer.

I get that the OP wasn't comparing the two and you can't. Gretzky dominated the league for more than a dozen years. Henrik hasn't dominated anything.

And the playoff stats are telling. Gretzky never let up in the playoffs while Henrik's stats are 11% lower. Gretzky averaged 1.92 points per game in the regular season and 1.87 in the playoffs. Hardly a drop off at all.
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#41 uber_pwnzor

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 06:25 AM

exactly... the game is exactly the same now as it was back then and we can directly compare the two by numbers alone. plus Gretzky is a mystical hockey player, didn't really exist. anyone who compares any other player to Gretzky needs to realize that he wasn't human and no one will ever be as good as him.

Please note sarcasm.

if you bring Gretzky in his prime to the modern NHL i guarantee you he would have way lower point totals. and on the Flip side... if you put the sedins into the era Gretzky played in the Sedins numbers would be HUGE.


Yeah, Gretzky wouldn't have as many points of he played today, but he still won the Hart Trophy like nine times. NINE. 9.

Henrik has won it once. One. 1.

That means tht Gretzky won it eight times more. Eight. 8. 900% more Hart Trophys.

He won the assist league 13 times in a row? Has Henrik done that? No.

Gretzky scored 215 points one season. Lemieux scored 199. Yzerman peaked at 155. Gretzky scored more than 25 % more points than Yzerman who rankes third overall in points scored one season.

Sure Gretzky wouldn't have scored 215 points in this day and age, but he'd score a lot more points than Henrik.


Don't get me wrong, Iove the Sedins, I always will, and I always have, ever since they played for MODO. But let's be realistic; Henrik doesn't even come close to Gretzky, not even close.
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#42 Walking Paradox

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:15 AM

I've calculated it before. Statistically he turns out to be about 150 points at his peak in today's offense levels.


But calculations also had us as favourites to win the cup over the past 2 seasons. The numbers might show that he would score 150, but the numbers don't show how much the goalies and defense-men have improved.
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#43 realnucksfan2010

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:53 AM

Are you serious, am I wrong but are you comparing Hank to Gretz? :picard:
Are you comparing Hank to Orr?
Please tell me i have read this wrong!
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#44 smokes

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:58 AM

Hmmmm the Gretzky era. You guys makingi me imagine a line of the Sedins and Bure. :towel:

Edited by smokes, 22 May 2012 - 08:59 AM.

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#45 TimberWolf

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 09:41 AM

The Sedans could've ammased 130-150 points in the 80-90's but it's illegal to use cars in the nhl. If you are talking about the Sedins though, they'd be 80 point players.


So the Sedins being 90 point players in the trapped dead puck of now would only be 80 point players in the wide open 80's?
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I was saying Lu-Urns...

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#46 Millerdraft

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 09:47 AM

I move to have a "Ron Francis Award" to the player who amasses the most assists in the regular season. Great read, I also liked the one on Burrows for the 2014 olympics... if NHL players play, that is!

Keep going with this blog, you can bet I'll be back!


Wayne Gretzky had more assists in his career than anyone else had points and you want to name an assist trophy after Ron Francis (as good of a playmaker as he was)?!
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#47 tereKat

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 10:15 AM

so true- if they give an award to the least penalized, they should also give an award to the best playmaker.

seriously, do you really prefer a player who is inconsistent and selfish (like ov), or the injury-prone (sid) over the two very consistent, unselfish, gifted and humble, "lead by example" type of guys (sedins)???

henrik is a cerebral ironman gifted player, and i would never trade the twins for any other player in the NHL.
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#48 DunCanuck

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

Gretzky would likely be an 80-100 point guy if he was in the NHL now.


I couldn't agree more. The NHL has changed so much since Gretzky's era. Yes, he was an amazing player; but put him in today's NHL where goalies aren't afraid of the puck. There's no way he would be putting up the same numbers that he was having. Look at his stats nearing the end of his career, where the game was slowly starting to change into the game we see today ( http://www.nhl.com/i...avid=nhl-search ) It really is a shame that no one will be able to beat out the records that were set decades ago.
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#49 ajhockey

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 11:58 AM

want to let us know how you calculated it?


I took the average goals per game from our era and divided it by his era. Then I multiplied the number by his points. Using this method, Gretzky's 215 point season comes to 148 points in 2011-12 offense levels.

For interests sake, Henrik's 112 points in 2009-10 turns out to be 157 points in 1985-86 (the season that Gretzky had 215 points).

This obviously isn't a real accurate depiction of what these players would actually get in different eras, but it's a decent estimate.

Edited by ajhockey, 22 May 2012 - 12:00 PM.

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#50 Fugasi

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:04 PM

I like Hank and Dan.......... but please

Gretzky, in his first 8 seasons AVERAGED 190 PTS A YEAR

Only one player EVER had that many in a season and only once(Mario 199)

Thats 1520 points in his first 8 seasons

Hank and Dan have 1465 combined in their careers

And dont get me started on Orr..............
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#51 Clonedanielsedin

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 12:04 PM

I'm sure if Gretzky had an identical twin of equal talent, who he had the luxury of playing his entire NHL career with, his stats would be unreal.

The Sedins have a unique and rare advantage that makes it unfair to compare them individually to other players. Not everyone gets to play with a carbon copy of themselves that thinks exactly like they do.

Without Daniel, Henriks assist stats would be significantly lower, he would probably be behind Joe Thornton.
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#52 : }

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:26 PM

everyone is good now in the nhl, two totally different eras with the sedins and 99.
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#53 CanuckFan1981

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:38 PM

I couldn't agree more. The NHL has changed so much since Gretzky's era. Yes, he was an amazing player;  but put him in today's NHL where goalies aren't afraid of the puck. There's no way he would be putting up the same numbers that he was having. Look at his stats nearing the end of his career, where the game was slowly starting to change into the game we see today ( http://www.nhl.com/i...avid=nhl-search ) It really is a shame that no one will be able to beat out the records that were set decades ago.


Gretzky was the best and most prolific player in an era with alot of prolific players and scorers. I don't think it is fair to compare players from different era's. Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. However, Gretzky was arguably (not much arguing) the best player in the history of the game. I don't see how you can expect him to be anything but the best player no matter what era he plays in. I know, you compared how fast players are today and the goalies they played with back then and deduced that Henrick would get a million points. Its not like that though. If Henrick couldn't handle Marchand last year, what makes you think he would do well in the goon era? If Gretzky trained the way guys do today and used a composite stick, you don't think he would be able to score more? I say leave Gretzky in the 80's and 90's, he was the best player in the history of the game. Henrick is not even the best player in his era and I wouldn't have to try hard to name 5 players that have been better than him since the lockout. I love Hank, but he needs another 3 years on top of the league and a cup before we start saying his name in the same sentence as Gretz.
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#54 b3nnyb

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:04 PM

It just sounds good. Sedin to Sedin, GOAL!!!! Hahaha
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#55 Gumballthechewy

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:45 PM

so true- if they give an award to the least penalized, they should also give an award to the best playmaker.


This is the real world, not NHL 12. They don't just give out the Lady Byng to any clown with a pair of skates just because he has the lowest PIM's. Kyle Wellwood has a career high of 34 PIM's, and the most he ever had in one year is 14. They give it to: "the player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability" There's a reason only players like Datsyuk, Gretzky, Sakic, Bossy and such have won it.

There's no way he (Gretzky) would be putting up the same numbers that he was having. Look at his stats nearing the end of his career, where the game was slowly starting to change into the game we see today


And it has nothing to do with the fact he was also getting old right?

Why do people try and compare player for two completely different eras? If you wanna compare players like Gretzky and H. Sedin then compare them to someone from there own era.

Edited by gumballthechewy, 22 May 2012 - 05:14 PM.

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#56 King_Canuckian

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:54 PM

Gretzky only achieved his numbers because he played on a stacked team - with guys like Kurri, Messier, and Coffey helping him out. Even *I* could have gotten 215 points playing with those guys. j/k but I did see someone once use this argument.
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#57 Brocklovich

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:18 PM

I don't want to be a naysayer regarding Henrik or anything but I think its more telling of how defensive the game has become over the last 3 years.

He is a very good hockey player but I think Gretzky, Crosby, Orr etc were all on a different level.

To be honest Ovie has kind of crashed hard and to me either looks totally disinterested or just had a really off year but he hasn't been as great as he was when he first entered the league and he is playing with some damn good talent around him in washington
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#58 etsen3

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:34 PM

I couldn't agree more. The NHL has changed so much since Gretzky's era. Yes, he was an amazing player; but put him in today's NHL where goalies aren't afraid of the puck. There's no way he would be putting up the same numbers that he was having. Look at his stats nearing the end of his career, where the game was slowly starting to change into the game we see today ( http://www.nhl.com/i...avid=nhl-search ) It really is a shame that no one will be able to beat out the records that were set decades ago.


Key word: near the end of his career. How do we know that his decline in points wasn't due to age? In fact putting up those kind of points when he was almost 40 is actually very impressive and shows what a great player he was.

Edited by etsen3, 22 May 2012 - 05:35 PM.

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#59 Westcoasting

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 08:32 PM

I have no doubt the Gretzky today would put in 60 goals and 90 assists to lead the league by a longshot. The guy was that good he was way beyond everyone else. Take a guy like Steve Yzerman and he would be right in the top five in scoring with all the stars of today.
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#60 John Garret's moustache

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 09:18 PM

The Sedans could've ammased 130-150 points in the 80-90's but it's illegal to use cars in the nhl. If you are talking about the Sedins though, they'd be 80 point players.

Wow, thats so creative! Spell check on my macbook didn't recognize "Sedins" so sorry. The fact that you think the sedins would've had lower point production during the eighties proves something.
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