Qanux Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 To the question whether the same players would play differently with different goalies in net? It's a team sport, the defense does not play in isolation from the goalie or the offense in isolation from the defense. When you play a team sport, you would naturally adjust to the players around you and that's a fact. Whether or not the team takes more risks with Lu in net, I'm sure you can try to prove that statistically by comparing the number of odd-man rushes, turnovers, etc. in games with Lu against games with Schneider. Of course, you'd throw in a bunch of assumptions with that as well. While it's a valid question whether Lu or Schneider gives us the better chance of winning each game, the team should first address the major reason of why the team didn't go as far as we'd like. A chain is only as strong as the weakest link, and I don't think goaltending is the team's weakest link. If Lu is as bad as so many claim he is, how in the world did we make it to game 7 of SC finals in 2011? His deficiency should single-handed cost the team to lose before that. What I'm saying is that he's not as bad as some of you make him to be. The only thing that could silence his critics is him winning the last and only missing trophy. For someone who has won at all different levels, holds this franchise's records in so many categories, I only plea that we as fans be respectful to this player. Remember the revolving door for our No.1 goalies before Lu arrived when we had goalies like Potvin, Cloutier, Hirsch, Sanford, Schwab, Irbe, (the list goes on and on). These goalies all held and deserved the No.1 spot at one time or another but eventually faltered. Lu is the one guy who gave this team consistency year after year, probably since the Kirk McLean era. Has his "crappiness" cause this team to miss the playoffs? Regular season success means nothing, right? Well, try winning the Cup without getting into the playoffs. Don't be so disloyal and dump on this guy. What about Kesler's or Hank's numbers for the last 20 or so regular season games and into the first round of this year's playoffs? These guys are paid to perform as much as Lu. Do we trade away these guys too? Even if Lu is traded, respect the guy for what's he's done personally, and for this team. Yes, we all want the Cup, but at the end of the day, only one team out of 30 gets to win it. It's also interesting to note that Lu was the one displaced Brodeur as starter in the 2010 Olympics and won gold, and Brodeur's play had been going downhill for the last couple years when people questioned whether he should retire. And when is the last time Brodeur won a goaltending award? Well, Lu won the Jennings not so long ago. But who went to the SC finals this year? Imagine if NJ fans dumped Brodeur prior to this playoffs the way we do with Lu. Brodeur could have very well retired this summer if he lost his starter job before this year's playoffs on a rather sour note. Of course Brodeur has led them to 3 Cups and gets a longer leash, but again they also had a really solid defence led by Neidermeyer and Stevens. I'm neither a Lu lover nor a Lu hater, I'm just a Lu "respecter" and a loyal fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Mind Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Ya sure this thread is a joke. How can you blame the defense for everything? How bout Lu in shooutouts? Is that the canucks players taking the shootouts fault? lol. Your reasoning is a complete joke, and is only seen as a mere effort to try to keep overrated Luongo. Just stop before you embarass yourself. Lu thinking he is an elite when he is not= Major Cause of So-called Luongo Breakdowns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSniper88 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 This thread is about the playoffs and we all know there are no shootouts then. Therefore your response is clearly a mere effort to bash Luongo. If someone is embarassing themself, it certainly isn't the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsedin33 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 · Hidden by Templeton Peck, June 17, 2012 - No reason given Hidden by Templeton Peck, June 17, 2012 - No reason given Ya sure this thread is a joke. How can you blame the defense for everything? How bout Lu in shooutouts? Is that the canucks players taking the shootouts fault? lol. Your reasoning is a complete joke, and is only seen as a mere effort to try to keep overrated Luongo. Just stop before you embarass yourself. Lu thinking he is an elite when he is not= Major Cause of So-called Luongo Breakdowns Link to comment
Master Mind Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I can't wait till the day you lu lovers shut up after he gets traded. Because blaming defense and uploading youtube highlights and so on is a desperate effort to save Luongo from being traded. MG is not reading this cr*p so don't even bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSniper88 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 My post didn't defend Lu nor bash him. I just pointed out how your post was irrelevant to the topic. All you want to do is hate on Luongo and that's pretty obvious to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Cathode Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Good thing you tried your best to really counter the theory I proposed and also accepted the fact that I never say that the D is solely responsible. You are also wrong on shootouts. Up until 2010 (the only website I could find) Career save record in SO: 111/155 = 71.6% Career win/loss: 20-22 = 47.6% So at least up until 2 years ago, we can see that Luongo is pretty decent in SO, but then he still has a losing record.... What does that mean? The players in fact DO have trouble scoring. Once again, an irrelevant argument and not even valid. Nice try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tm085 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 so we're resorting to shootout stats now...lol jesus christ lock this f--king thread already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 DBL Post, sorry The way I see it, you are only a choke if you fail ALL or MOST of the big games. Luongo has won, even single-handedly, many big games. Therefore, we can establish a theory that Luongo is not actually a choke, but there is an outside factor that causes these breakdowns. Defensive support is possibly the most important thing a goaltender needs to be successful. The NHL nowadays have so much talent that you will see back-door saucer passes and slap-pass tip-ins night in and night out. Not only that, but goaltending has evolved into more of a positional game than a reactional style. If you don't believe me look at the size of the pads now and 20 years ago. Luongo is fine in the regular season, sure. That's not because he's only good in the regular season, but it's because his D plays the right way and isolates many of the point-blank chances (ie. rebounds). The Canucks D do this job very well, and though it's not tangibly provable, I and a number of other CDC'ers have come to notice the strange difference in effort in the Canuck players when Schneider plays (perhaps this inflates his numbers). So everything is good, up until April. What happens? Luongo doesn't let in 4 or 5 every game. He has some insane games and some horrible games. Sometimes he lets in 1 or posts a shutout while sometimes he posts a stinker with 4 or more. Why does this happen? Unless you are actually suggesting that the April weather suddenly destroys his consistency, there is no other plausible explanation other than the theory that the defence COMPLETELY changes their game. This is in fact provable. You will notice that the Canucks team vamp up their physicality by a tremendous amount, so much that sometimes the hit is prioritized over simple defensive plays. This is specific to players such as Bieksa or Edler since they are big-minute eaters and love to hit. What will happen then is that because the Canucks D change their game and how they operate, the rhythm completely breaks for Luongo. Suddenly there are ridiculous point-blank chances appearing all around him: These highlight-reel saves are often from the playoffs, because Luongo is forced into these situations. The D are often found not marking key players who are WIDE open, so Luongo has to bail them out. When he gets them, he posts those miniscule numbers. When he doesn't, the GAA climbs up. And, when Luongo's got the defensive support (Burrows checking MacDonald), he makes the saves. Now obviously I took a small sample of the many videos out there, but as you can see, the main point I'm trying to make is that in the playoffs, the defence leave holes and gaps that normally are covered in the regular season. This creates make or break chances that Luongo must deal with almost alone. I also feel that Schneider's playoff numbers are inflated partly because of tighter defensive coverage provided by the team. It's not like Schneider is often beat on a goal where the defense hangs him out to dry, because the defence plays tighter when he's in goal. Conspiracy? Maybe, but the theory is there. Thoughts? Edit: Before the haters come in to accuse me of trying to find an excuse for Luongo, I would like to say that doing so would prove to me that you cannot find an appropriate counter to the theory that the D is in fact partly responsible for the breakdowns. Think about that before simply posting "QQ Luongo sucks!!1!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Surfer Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Yeah, look at this goal. Sedin coughs up the puck, Kesler waves at him, Erhoff sorta watches as Marchand slips between him and another Canuck to break in on Lou. But Lou also flopped and fell on his face. giving Marchand the rat an easy goal. Just after bragging he would have made saves Thomas could not, and did not pump his tires. Sure the defence broke down. But Lou did too, the highest paid player in the world at that moment, a $10,000,000 mill salary for 2010/11. The opposite can be true, teams confidence and overall play drops when they have no confidence in the goaltender! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockeywoot Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 I kinda agree with the OP. Schneider is still the better goalie ATM . Not going to argue that. If you're going to bank on your goalie to bail you out night after night to make up for glaring holes in both offensive and defensive deficiencies, then Schneider is the much better option. Otherwise, it may be better to fix the problems with the team playing in front of him. We lack scoring depth. We also lack reliable defenceman. If two of your top-4 are consistently adventures in their own end. You know you have a problem. If Chris Tanev, is one of your more reliable defenceman, you clearly have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera82 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Schneider has the exact same defense in front of him, and he still manages to outplay Luongo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riviera82 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Maybe Schneider has better numbers because psychologically, the players have more confidence in Luongo. Hear me out - with Luongo in goal, the defense has that mindset that they can take a few more chances, of course high-risk, high-reward, and with risk, there is the chance that the risk does not pan out. I fully agree that the defense plays better with Schneider in goal, but that's not as much hanging Luongo out to dry as it is that they feel he will make that save when needed. Reputations do that sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krazysl Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 yeah sometimes the team hangs Lou out to dry, but so does every other team in the nhl. Lou only seems to play good when our D is playing good. Lou also lets in crap goals from behind the net or pucks shot directly at his lanky feet, wich then deflates our team. I am telling you I was a huce supporter of Lou and defended him, but that has changed because Lou has showed me time after time that he has a fragile mind and will look like he is a back up at best when he goes like that. Yeah canucks didnt score much in the SCF and yeah Lou won us 3 of those games because our d played exeptional infront of him. But in the 4 we lost, he didnt have to have a .812 save pct and 6.00 ga, meaning our team was down 3 or 4 goals trying to score to catch up hence giving up more chances. All the playoff series we lose he has those kind of numbers, maybe if the numbers were .890 and 3.00 then he would be elite and the d let him down, instead he is an avrage goalie that needs exeptional D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill F-ing Murray Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Every goalie has nice save highlights, even backup goalies too. Show his shootout goals and explain that. Your being bias showing only certain saves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 If we're just dissecting the last 2 playoff round exits, here's why our defence was so bad - Boston and LA both have huge bodies up front that banged us around, kept the pressure on us and forechecked better than we could move the puck out of our own zone. Our defencemen are mostly young guys who still panic when the pressure is high which is why we were often hemmed in our own zone. Then, when we're on the attack we often made poor pinches or stupid passes that lead to breakaways or odd-man rushes the other way because our defenders were hurried and pressured. The big bodies of both teams wore down our small defence over the playoffs. Our only big body playing against L.A was Edler and he was our worst player in the 5 games. Even Hamhuis looked terrible at times because he too couldn't take the fierce pressure that was put on us. So how do we deal with an intense forecheck and high pressure like this? We get bigger on the back-end and we get more experienced. Salo is our only guy who's been in the league a long time and when he's out of the lineup it shows - our younger guys like Bieksa and Edler become turnover machines because they have no one on the bench to calm them down. Look at what veterans like Mitchell and Greene did to the young kids like Voynov, Doughty and Martinec. They calmed them down and helped them keep their composure throughout the playoffs. There was even an example in Game 6 when Kovalchuk tried to get under Voynov's skin with a cheap slash and Mitchell went straight over to him and told him not to take a stupid penalty. THIS is what the Canucks defence need. We don't need Ehrhoff who can score 50 points, we don't even really need Garrisson who's a strong shutdown guy, our main priority is a big, physical, strong defenceman who has been in this league a long time, who has seen it all and who brings a veteran, calming influence to our younger guys. On the market right now there's Roszival and Allen who are both perfect suitors, especially Allen. As lovely as Mitchell would have been to play with and calm down Edler during these pressure moments, Allen would do fine. Leave Salo for our 3rd pairing with Alberts and we suddenly have the perfect mix of physicality, age, youth and offence on each pairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffraff Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 IMO Lu had his best year last year since his first year. I've said it before that his off ice attitude was also far more pro than in prior years. We can provide bolstering evidence to support either camps position but when it came down to it AV put Schneider in..... And: OP you also are a Raymond supporter so..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vansicle Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 Oh, good. Another finger pointing thread. How refreshing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realnucksfan2010 Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 OP really? The def doesn't play like that in front of Cory! mabey you could put together some clips to that effect, then mabey come up with some reasons why the team plays so poorly infront of Luo as opposed to Cory. I am not hatting on Luo, i am mearly stating fact and what is obvious, I just wish that these types of threads would stop, these threads are not doing Luo any justice! Just a side note Luo is my fav goalie I wish the circumstances were different, however this situation is what it is and cannot be changed by me or anyone else on this board, the only ones who can change this is Luo himself and MG! Also blaming the def for the colapse of the team, or blaming Luo for that matter is laughable, this is a team game, you win as a team and lose as a team, if you only have 5 or 6 guys actually putting in effort you will still lose, it takes every man on every line and the goalie to put in a great effort to win, not just a few!!!! The sooner we all realize this simple fact the better, all of these threads blaming the goalie, the deffence, the lack of offence, are just banter, it would be really nice to see some threads about why the team can't seem to put forth the effort required to win!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herberts Vasiljevs Posted June 15, 2012 Share Posted June 15, 2012 true he shouldn't have gone down on his belly, neither should have the 3 Canucks in front of the net.....that was horrible all around. Brodeur does that bellyflop move as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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