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#2521 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 05:03 PM

At this point comments from the players and the " other side " is merely jibber jabber.Sorry for those whom side with the players on this one. When the employees eventually bite the bullet ( because its not going to go any way other than how the owners want it to ) then we will see NHL hockey again...sad thing is we have to wait and wait and wait for the players to come to this realization.


The players gave up quite a bit in the last CBA. Some of the owners(MIN) are especially hypocritical of what they're now railing against.

Sorry, but the union looks much more solidified this time around than the previous lockout and many of them have found work elsewhere, as opposed to last time when there weren't alternate places to play. There's no reason not to think that the season could be lost, regardless of whether the deadlines pass without any movement....which was my point.

The Player's union has agreed to some cuts in revenue, even though the league is the most prosperous it's ever been.

This time around, it's pure greed on the owner's part and incompetence on the Commissioner's part.
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#2522 Dion Phaneuf

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:18 PM

New Forward Lines:

Penner - Plekanec - Lupul
Bourque - Bozak - Hornqvist
Eager - Smith - Thorburn
Winchester - Haley - Janssen
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#2523 OurTimeToShine

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 06:46 PM

At this point comments from the players and the " other side " is merely jibber jabber.Sorry for those whom side with the players on this one. When the employees eventually bite the bullet ( because its not going to go any way other than how the owners want it to ) then we will see NHL hockey again...sad thing is we have to wait and wait and wait for the players to come to this realization.


Agreed... Sad reality.
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#2524 Mike Vanderhoek

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 07:46 PM

The players gave up quite a bit in the last CBA. Some of the owners(MIN) are especially hypocritical of what they're now railing against.

Sorry, but the union looks much more solidified this time around than the previous lockout and many of them have found work elsewhere, as opposed to last time when there weren't alternate places to play. There's no reason not to think that the season could be lost, regardless of whether the deadlines pass without any movement....which was my point.

The Player's union has agreed to some cuts in revenue, even though the league is the most prosperous it's ever been.

This time around, it's pure greed on the owner's part and incompetence on the Commissioner's part.


It is pure greed on all sides no matter how you slice it. The players had taken cuts in income through the last negotiation for sure and we can't disregard that. But in the end the owners are taking all the risks financially to run this league, the owners are the ones who are paying on so many levels ( as businesses do ) and they honestly are entitled to profit and gain if able.The argument can be made that there would be no NHL without the players so they are entitled to ??? something above what it takes to operate a business successfully ?As the players whom have and continue to sign in other leagues from the NHL are showing, there is always going to be talent available to take a spot ( and in this case NHL players are literally taking other's jobs in these other leagues ).I urge people to read up on the previous CBA lol, the players and don't get me wrong work hard, put a lot of their time in and don't get a " normal life " if there is such a thing. They are very driven individuals and I guess a cut above the rest if not at least in terms of skills. But they are being paid to live by the breakdown of the past CBA has shown. Anything from per diems to trades, call ups, demotions, waivers, and so on do not have a financial impact on these player's or famillies live's. They are paid to do everything and compensated in every way. Maybe inconvenient to be involved in a transaction but the players are compensated for it. Then they also recieve massive contracts.Players still have more to lose financially before something is agreed upon, as Cory Schneider said earlier " the players have already lost " its a matter of how much and how long it wil take.
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#2525 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:07 PM

It is pure greed on all sides no matter how you slice it. The players had taken cuts in income through the last negotiation for sure and we can't disregard that. But in the end the owners are taking all the risks financially to run this league, the owners are the ones who are paying on so many levels ( as businesses do ) and they honestly are entitled to profit and gain if able.The argument can be made that there would be no NHL without the players so they are entitled to ??? something above what it takes to operate a business successfully ?As the players whom have and continue to sign in other leagues from the NHL are showing, there is always going to be talent available to take a spot ( and in this case NHL players are literally taking other's jobs in these other leagues ).I urge people to read up on the previous CBA lol, the players and don't get me wrong work hard, put a lot of their time in and don't get a " normal life " if there is such a thing. They are very driven individuals and I guess a cut above the rest if not at least in terms of skills. But they are being paid to live by the breakdown of the past CBA has shown. Anything from per diems to trades, call ups, demotions, waivers, and so on do not have a financial impact on these player's or famillies live's. They are paid to do everything and compensated in every way. Maybe inconvenient to be involved in a transaction but the players are compensated for it. Then they also recieve massive contracts.Players still have more to lose financially before something is agreed upon, as Cory Schneider said earlier " the players have already lost " its a matter of how much and how long it wil take.



I disagree Mike. I don't think the players are being 'purely greedy'. Like we both can agree on, they're the ones who lost out with the reductions they gave into in the last CBA, along with taking on the salary cap.

What has that done? Oh, it's only turned the NHL into the most profitable it's ever been.

And this time around, the players have forthrightly stated that they understand the necessity to ensure the health of the league by addressing the needs of team that aren't economically as viable as others, by offering a further reduction in the % of revenue to the owners in order to help that.

The owners, who are directly responsible for the poor economic situation of some franchises by trusting their Commissioner's stupid expansion plan South for years amid loss after loss of revenue and still they were prepared to vote to keep teams like PHX and other struggling franchises on the revenue teat of the NHL. And now they're looking for more money from the players?? Give me a break with the risk/profit argument. They're a buncha capitalists when it comes to profits, but all turn into a bunch of corporate socialists when they start losing because of their own stupidity. Their loss shouldn't even be part of the calculations in trying to take more money from the players in order to mitigate their own foolish losses, at the behest and lack of their Count Chocula-esque Commissioner, who led them down that path in the first place.

And remember, the sky is the limit for profits for these owners, not in terms of contract salary for players anymore....Bettman made sure of that with the cap.....which if you've noticed, which i'm sure you have, has only steadily increased over the years which completely goes against actually having a cap in the first place. It's bullsh*t capitalism, ie. American corporate capitalism's attempt at weakening a union by nipping at it contract after contract....it's on page one of the Union-Busting playbook.

I have much more sympathy for the players this time around...especially the majority of them who don't make 5+million per year on long contracts in the middle of their prime years. Tell the guy making league minimum that he's being greedy when he's only got a handful of years to make enough money for his family and their future. You of all people I figured would have empathized with that, at least considering how hard you work your tail off for those that pay you for your work, as you save for your family's future. Just saying my friend.
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#2526 theminister

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:21 PM

Sharpie, you are right in philosophical points but Mike is correct that it doesn't matter.
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#2527 _arby_18

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:41 PM

Sharpie, you are right in philosophical points but Mike is correct that it doesn't matter.


Agreed. The owners run the show, and the players unfortunately are at the mercy of this. It doesn't help that Fehr has made some missteps of late after starting off with such positive PR, but at the end of the day the players need to realize that they're going to lose this fight and that all that's being fought over is how badly they're going to lose. Hopefully, they make a deal soon before the owners get really mad and start demanding that contracts no longer be guaranteed.

Edited by _arby_18, 12 October 2012 - 08:42 PM.

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#2528 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 08:52 PM

Sharpie, you are right in philosophical points but Mike is correct that it doesn't matter.


I understand that they hold the better cards and Mike's making a good point, which is certainly valid as well. I simply disagree with his contention that the driver of 'pure greed' is equal or applicable for both sides. The players have agreed to reduce their share even more, but the owners want even more of a reduction. This isn't just a 'nature of reality' philosophical point or in theory, but one rooted in observable and empirical reality. The stench of greed is wafting over from the owner's side much moreso than from the player's side. That's my fundamental disagreement with my good friend from New Jersey.
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#2529 canuck2xtreme

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

NHL posts record profits year after year and grows business by 50%.

Owners are insisting on immediate salary reduction.

Those two things don't add up unless you add the key variable: ridiculously incompetent management.

Leave them at 57% this season, and reduce it 1.5% per season (thus not directly impacting current player contracts, the key sticking point) until you land at 50-50 split. Seems pretty darn reasonable if you ask me.

If the owners move off of their ludicrous stance that the reduction needs to happen right off the top and can't be phased in, this entire thing gets a whole lot easier. The owners get the bigger piece of the pie they want, the players aren't forced to take a pay cut that they shouldn't have to take in the first place after the business grew by 50% in 7 years.

If the league's finances are so dire that they can't phase in this kind of agreement, why can they constantly vote to keep that money pit in Phoenix?
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#2530 canuck2xtreme

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 09:39 PM

Another day of simming coming up!...
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#2531 Primal Optimist

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:44 PM

Sharpie, you are right in philosophical points but Mike is correct that it doesn't matter.

This. I wanted to look at a random team, knowing that approximately 2.5million is the average salary for each of 23 players on a capped team. I chose the real Rangers for my comparison out of just wanting to be random about the selection.

The real rangers as it stand right now have 9 forwards making less than 2million, and 5 defensemen also making less than 2million. Their backup goalie makes less than 2million also. That is 15 of 23 players make less than the average team salary.

Two defensemen make over 3million but less than 4 million and a forward makes almost 5million

3 forwards make 7million or more each and the starting goalie makes almost 7million.

My question is: Do the 19 other players on the team really want to lose 100% of a years pay in order to help the other four guys maintain more of their 7million dollar paychecks in subsequent years?

My guess is no, 83% of players who would be uneffected by a 17% clawback, more or less won't want to lose 100% of a years pay to help support the principle of the 17% of players who make gross paychecks to play a game for the decade of their lives that they are in peak performance mode.

For those 83% of non elite players in the league, a lost half a season is just as bad as a 10% pay cut for their entire careers,,,financially speaking....so why not settle it early, take the loss early and recoup it over time, rather than lose 10% of their career earnings during the fight of trying to not lose 17%...really it makes the 'loss' almost double by adding in non earning time...suck it up buttercups, your still millionaires.

EDIT: Uneffected was a bad choice of words...but if its a 17% clawback, your only losing a million bucks if you are signed to 6m a year or more...which is a tiny little fraction of players. The majority of players will lose more by not playing this year than they would lose over their careers if they settle on the 17% rollback and play now.

Edited by Primal Optimist, 12 October 2012 - 10:46 PM.

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#2532 Primal Optimist

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:53 PM

NHL posts record profits year after year and grows business by 50%.

Owners are insisting on immediate salary reduction.

Those two things don't add up unless you add the key variable: ridiculously incompetent management.

Leave them at 57% this season, and reduce it 1.5% per season (thus not directly impacting current player contracts, the key sticking point) until you land at 50-50 split. Seems pretty darn reasonable if you ask me.

If the owners move off of their ludicrous stance that the reduction needs to happen right off the top and can't be phased in, this entire thing gets a whole lot easier. The owners get the bigger piece of the pie they want, the players aren't forced to take a pay cut that they shouldn't have to take in the first place after the business grew by 50% in 7 years.

If the league's finances are so dire that they can't phase in this kind of agreement, why can they constantly vote to keep that money pit in Phoenix?

Because its not about money. Its about MORE money. This last CBA saw the league revenues rise dramatically during a time of global fiscal catastrophy...if it grew by 50% during the worst economic times since the great depression..then as the yankees grow out of their emergency and flex again, which will happen in year 6 of an Obama administration..the signs are already there now....then imagine the growth the league will see under this new CBA. If revenues grow by doubling and tripling, rather than gaining 50%...salaries will too. Its not about the money "the day after the agreement is signed" its about the money in 2015 and forward......that money dwarfs this seasons money like the sun does the moon. Owners are greedy, players are greedy, but generally, when supply is huge and demand is low....there are only 800 NHL players in the world, but there are millions who want to be....then cory schneider was right..the players already lost.
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#2533 Primal Optimist

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 10:54 PM

oh and this is why the owners will follow bettman to the cliffs of dover....he won and made them money during financial collapse...clearly he will make them Bill Gates money once the global and american economic engine is re-ignited.


Yeah i know my grammar and formatting are getting dummer by the day...lol....honestly I only put great effort into those things if I am being paid...hahaha...but your still getting grade A research and analysis here. ;p

Edited by Primal Optimist, 12 October 2012 - 10:57 PM.

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#2534 canuck2xtreme

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:32 PM

Results Part 2 - October 12, 2012



Posted Image Boston - 1
Posted Image Carolina - 2 (SO)
------------------------------------
Posted Image Pittsburgh - 1
Posted Image Vancouver - 2
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Posted Image Columbus - 0
Posted Image Detroit - 2
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Posted Image Ottawa - 4
Posted Image Dallas - 1
------------------------------------
Posted Image Winnipeg - 2
Posted Image Washington - 0
------------------------------------
Posted Image St. Louis - 0
Posted Image Chicago - 1
------------------------------------
Posted Image Minnesota - 0
Posted Image Montreal - 1
------------------------------------
Posted Image Los Angeles - 1
Posted Image Nashville - 5
------------------------------------
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#2535 canuck2xtreme

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:34 PM

Game of the Day #2 - October 12, 2012



Posted Image Tampa Bay - 3
Posted Image NY Rangers - 4 (SO)


Goals ------------ 1st-----2nd----3rd----OT----SO----FINAL--
Tampa Bay ------- 1 ----- 1 ------ 1 ----- 0 ---- 0 -------- 3 -----
NY Rangers ----- 0 ----- 3 ------ 0 ------ 0 ---- 1 -------- 4 -----

Shots --------------1st-----2nd-----3rd----OT----SO----TOTAL-
Tampa Bay ------- 13 ---- 14 ---- 15 ---- 5 ----- 2 ----- 47 -----
NY Rangers ------ 14 ---- 10 ----- 9 ---- 2 ----- 2 ----- 35 ----

Three Stars
Posted Image 1. John Tavares
Posted Image 2. Mike Smith

Posted Image 3. Matt Carle

Scoring Summary
---------------------------------------
- 1st Period -
TB John Tavares (1), Matt Carle, Carey Price 2:53 PP

- 2nd Period -
TB Patrick Marleau (2), Andrei Meszaros, Martin Havlat 3:12
NYR Ryan Malone (1), Joe Thornton, Andrei Kostitsyn 5:27
NYR Jiri Hudler (1), David Moss, TJ Galiardi 7:21
NYR Sergei Gonchar (1), Joe Thornton, Nik Antropov 18:47

- 3rd Period -
TB John Tavares (2), Martin Havlat, Matt Carle 5:36

- Overtime -
No Scoring

- Shootout -
Posted Image Patrick Marleau - Miss
Posted Image Andrei Kostitsyn - Goal
Posted Image Martin Havlat - Miss
Posted Image Matt Carle - Goal
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#2536 canuck2xtreme

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:35 PM

Injuries


Posted Image - C Ryan Getzlaf will be injured for 3 - 4 weeks with a hip pointer injury.
Posted Image - LW Corey Cowick will be injured for a week or so with a concussion.

Posted Image - C Boyd Gordon will be injured for 2 - 3 weeks with a concussion.
Posted Image - D Mattias Ohlund will be injured for 2 - 3 weeks with a shoulder injury
.





Returning from Injury


Posted Image - C Tomas Plekanec has recovered and is available to play.
Posted Image - C Derek Stepan has recovered and is available to play.
Posted Image - G Josh Harding has recovered and is available to play.
Posted Image - F Lars Eller has recovered and is available to play.
Posted Image - C Steven Stamkos has recovered and is available to play.
Posted Image - D Jake Gardiner has recovered and is available to play.
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#2537 Gally

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:35 PM

Damnit fire sale in CBJ :P

Edited by WhatIsHappened, 12 October 2012 - 11:36 PM.

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#2538 canuck2xtreme

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:36 PM

Schedule - October 13, 2012



Posted Image Buffalo
Posted Image New Jersey
------------------------------------
Posted Image Edmonton
Posted Image Calgary
------------------------------------
Posted Image Colorado
Posted Image San Jose
------------------------------------
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#2539 Bombastik der Teutone

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:37 PM

Results Part 2 - October 12, 2012



Posted Image Boston - 1
Posted Image Carolina - 2 (SO)
------------------------------------
Posted Image Pittsburgh - 1
Posted Image Vancouver - 2
------------------------------------
Posted Image Columbus - 0
Posted Image Detroit - 2
------------------------------------
Posted Image Ottawa - 4
Posted Image Dallas - 1
------------------------------------
Posted Image Winnipeg - 2
Posted Image Washington - 0
------------------------------------
Posted Image St. Louis - 0
Posted Image Chicago - 1
------------------------------------
Posted Image Minnesota - 0
Posted Image Montreal - 1
------------------------------------
Posted Image Los Angeles - 1
Posted Image Nashville - 5
------------------------------------




whats up...another loss :shock: :frantic: :picard: <_<
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#2540 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:38 PM

Posted Image Pittsburgh - 1
Posted Image Vancouver - 2



FML


Pittsburgh Penguins Season Record:

Games Played = 6
Wins = 3
Loss = 2
Shootout Out Loss = 1
Points = 7


Goals For = 20
Goals Against = 21
Goals For Average = 3.33
Goals Against Average = 3.50
Win % = 50%


PIT vs NYI - 3-2 Win
BUF vs PIT - 6-2 Loss
PIT vs OTT - 4-1 Win
PHI vs PIT - 3-4 Win(OT)
NSH vs PIT - 7-6 SOL

PIT vs VAN - 1-2 Loss

Edited by Sharpshooter, 12 October 2012 - 11:52 PM.

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#2541 y0shi

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:42 PM

back to back games of the day. At least these sims are realistic, as Price tends to be less than stellar in shootouts. Is there an option for me to put in Budaj if such a situation arises?* :bigblush:

*The above statement is merely an observation as a hockey fan and not as the general manager of the hockey team. It is not meant to be an insult, but an observation like when a Canuck fan says the same thing about Luongo. The statement is neither endorsed nor affiliated with that of the Tampa Bay Lightning organization or any of its individual members.
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#2542 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 October 2012 - 11:46 PM

Posted Image - C Steven Stamkos has recovered and is available to play.




Oh thank baby jebus of the immaculate manger.

Talk about the nick of time. So glad to have Stammer back.

Pittsburgh immediately and forthwith without hesitation or delay assign Stamkos back onto the roster.


Pittsburgh Penguins Updated Forwards Roster:


Hall - Malkin - Stamkos

Pouliot - RNH - Read

Paajarvi - Couturier - Steckel

Testwuide - Bjugstad - Ferriero


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#2543 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:09 AM

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I would like to acknowledge the hard work of the defense and goaltender in this hard fought win .
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

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#2544 Bombastik der Teutone

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:15 AM

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I would like to acknowledge the hard work of the defense and goaltender in this hard fought win .


i dont like you anymore <_<













::D .....we´ll strike back
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#2545 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:35 AM

i dont like you anymore <_<













::D .....we´ll strike back


I still have warm feeling's towards you brother :rolleyes:




And i have no doubt i will face a fired up blues team when next we meet :towel:
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#2546 Bombastik der Teutone

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:36 AM

I still have warm feeling's towards you brother :rolleyes:




And i have no doubt i will face a fired up blues team when next we meet :towel:



:lol: off course...congrats anyways
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#2547 Primal Optimist

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:19 AM

back to back games of the day. At least these sims are realistic, as Price tends to be less than stellar in shootouts. Is there an option for me to put in Budaj if such a situation arises?* :bigblush:

*The above statement is merely an observation as a hockey fan and not as the general manager of the hockey team. It is not meant to be an insult, but an observation like when a Canuck fan says the same thing about Luongo. The statement is neither endorsed nor affiliated with that of the Tampa Bay Lightning organization or any of its individual members.

was a close one, and leaves my coach in the strange position of explaining why Hudler was on the ice with Moss and Galiardi...well clearly the experiment paid off, but what a strange decision Coach AI made...
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#2548 Primal Optimist

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:24 AM

Minor suggestion for dates on the official games score posts....can we name them with the date the NHL schedule would have had them on? the date of the post is already stamped in every post, so its redundant that way to use todays date..and it would help us keep tracka little better of the schedule and upcoming games et cetera...if there is some reason I don't see as to why we are doing it this way...ignore me, lol.
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#2549 Bombastik der Teutone

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:51 AM

Blues Prospect Report


We are very pleased with our young Guys untill now.


Konrad Abeltshauser is on the Top of the Defender Scoreboard of the QMJHL with 13 Points(all Assists).

Well Guys like Mckinnon and Frk are a reason but we are glad that things going

well with Konrad. He´s on the way to a personal Record if he keeps Scoring.


Goalie Mathias Niederberger is No. 2 in Wins in the OHL ...only his GAA could be better.

The Season is still long...


Logan Nelson has 11 Points so far and is in touch to the Top 20 (22.) in the WHL.


Brett Ritchie is also on the Way to a personal Best with 10 Points currently.

He´s also in touch to the Top 20 in the OHL.


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#2550 Caboose

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:01 AM

You guys and your cba talk makes me feel like a little child
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