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So is 4.6 mil the max for D-men? Is that the message we're sending?


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#31 Langdon Algur

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:26 PM

<p>

We build the team around the Sedins and Kesler mostly, our defense doesn't have that so until the Sedins contracts are close to over, I don't really expect a big defense men signing, just look at Los Angeles and their D core, They don't have many big contracts at all but their offense does.


huh? Doughty signed for 7m for 6 years.

Edited by Langdon Algur, 04 July 2012 - 02:27 PM.

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#32 suolucidir

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:38 PM

Cap for non superstars.

Edited by suolucidir, 04 July 2012 - 02:38 PM.

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#33 key2thecup

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:53 PM

Imagine if Sundin took that 2yr $20 Mill contract...

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#34 goxcanucksxgo

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:58 PM

Why is everyone assuming we're going to go after Weber...? I'm so confused.

Sure, he's a great player but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would fit into our dressing room. This team isn't interested in signing big stars for huge contracts... History shows that management wants to sign undervalued players with potential and the right attitude/personality.

We're not going to be whoring ourselves out to get Weber, I can guarantee it. He's the kind of guy that thinks money first, in which case he'll get a better offer from a city that doesn't have much to offer in terms of lifestyle (i.e. Nashville...)

#35 MLT

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 02:59 PM

Edler will not break that rule. He had a phenominal start to the season but his both his numbers, and performance dropped drastically in the second half of the year. That reduction in production continued into the playoffs and was his poor performance is one of the reasons why we were unsuccessful.

Edler at this point in his career is not worth 6 mil. Hamhuis is easily out performing him.

Edited by MLT, 04 July 2012 - 03:01 PM.

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#36 RO8!!

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:05 PM

With the signing of Garrison at 4.6 mil, and Gillis stating that he had to fit into our internal cap structure, does that mean that no defenseman on this team will make more than that?

Will Edler be willing to take that amount if we sign him long term, or do we make a push for Weber instead, and sign him to a big contract?

I don't think our players would have a problem signing Weber to a big contract since he definitely is a top 5 defenseman in the league. But I wonder how they would feel about Edler making the 6-7 mil, that he could easily fetch on the open market.


None of the defensemen we have now warrant a huge term length(I'm talking 10ish years) so we have been able to deal with guys that are looking at more 4-5 years so by giving them 6-7 we bring down the cap to give them the kind of money they are looking for and give ourselves a bit of a discount. The defensmen we have targeted and the time in which we targeted them, when the cap was lower in previous years, means each 4.6million dollar contract is worth slightly different values in each given year.

More so I think Gillis just wants to avoid putting himself in a bad position and give out 10+ year contracts to multiple players. Not to mention when you get into free agency like that it can get pretty wild pretty fast. He will probably be willing to give Edler more if he takes the steps needed next season but I guess we won't know until then. I tend to think if it was a big time defensemen we already had, like say Edler takes a huge leap next year, GMMG would probably be a lot more willing to retain him to a big time deal but as for Gillis going into free agency to give Weber(or someone of the like) a big payday I have a hard time seeing that unless Weber takes a discounted price like most of our dmen we have signed(even Garrison according to reports).

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#37 ilduce39

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:07 PM

I'm generally against going after big names via free-agency because you

a ) overpay

and

b ) potentially disrupt team chemistry

but in the case of Weber I think it's worth letting Edler walk and absorbing the difference in salaries.

Edited by ilduce39, 04 July 2012 - 03:07 PM.

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#38 RBCanucks

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:11 PM

I think Weber will get a lot more than $8-8.5M. The league hasn't learned from their past mistakes and contracts are excalating at a ridiculous pace again.


Ditto. I really hope the new CBA reduces the amount of money a single player is allowed to make. I agree with the cap system but I don't agree with certain players being signed to ridiculous long-term deals that are heavily front loaded to circumvent the cap. The talent pool in this league seems to get smaller every year as a result.

No player should be allowed to make more than 10% of the salary cap and a player's salary should be the same as their cap hit.
With a maximum cap hit of 10% of the salary cap, a player should be able to make no more than $7.02-million per year (as of the 2012-2013 season) with a maximum term of ten years (total contract = salary cap for that year). If they want $14.04-million per year they should not be allowed to sign a contract longer than 5 years (so that the contract signed is equal to the salary cap for the year in which they signed the contract).

Players like Suter, Parise, Crosby, etc. are allowed to make $14+ million per year in salary with a cap hit of only $7.5-million, $7.5-million, and $8.7-million respectively. I understand when a player signed to a 3 year deal and makes $3.75 the first year, $4 the second year, and $4.25 million the third year that his cap hit is $4-million. That makes sense. A player signed to a 13 year $98-million contract who is making $12 the first year and $1-million the last three years is absolute BS. It's cap circumvention and it shouldn't be allowed. $12 million in salary should be a $12 million cap hit.

The cap system as it stands now is broken. I don't think there is a team in this league that hasn't circumvented it.

Edited by rbcanucks87, 04 July 2012 - 03:16 PM.


#39 canucksnihilist

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:12 PM

Yes that is the max.

Weber will be offered a deal for 4.6 million for 20 years, age 28 to 48.

Seriously though, if he wants to play here it will be for 6.5 or 7. Sedin-like contract with inflation. We dot have to overpay if the player wants to play here - but we don't underpay either...

But maybe mg will surprise and offer him 8-9 but I doubt it.

Edited by canucksnihilist, 04 July 2012 - 03:12 PM.


#40 suolucidir

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:12 PM

Why is everyone assuming we're going to go after Weber...? I'm so confused.

Sure, he's a great player but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would fit into our dressing room. This team isn't interested in signing big stars for huge contracts... History shows that management wants to sign undervalued players with potential and the right attitude/personality.

We're not going to be whoring ourselves out to get Weber, I can guarantee it. He's the kind of guy that thinks money first, in which case he'll get a better offer from a city that doesn't have much to offer in terms of lifestyle (i.e. Nashville...)

If he was money first he would have extended a year ago. Nashville has been throwing the bank at him for a couple years. Where do you get your info from?
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#41 Raiun

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:13 PM

If Weber wants to play in Vancouver, it won't take an insane offer to sign him. Insane contracts are reserved for when a team wants a player but the player doesn't REALLY want to be on the team. So sweeten the deal with more money for longer, right?

#42 Kerry Park Islanders

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:50 PM

The thing is a player like Weber is a cornerstone piece, you can quickly build off. Our team is good now. Weber with a long term deal gives stability, you have a decent D with just him and Pylons. I say you pay whatever it takes. Defense wins Championships, if in doubt check out L.A., with their 3 defensive D- Men. Weber is a freak and must be had.

#43 Vancity_77

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:55 PM

Detroit will be pushing hard for Edler next year. If Gillis wants to put a "limit" on his Dman's salary Edler will be the next Lidstrom in Detroit

i lol'd when i read this, Edler is not in Lidstroms class...... be real!
I have never seen Lidstrom paint himself into a corner and end up costing his team reg. season games and clutch playoff games.



im jus sayin.
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#44 Canuck Surfer

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 03:56 PM

Edler could, and should in today's market, touch on $5.5 and I would pay it. $7 mill and I would probably hold back and try and pay Weber $9. Given the choice I would also pay Weber...

See below for an explanation.

With the signing of Garrison at 4.6 mil, and Gillis stating that he had to fit into our internal cap structure, does that mean that no defenseman on this team will make more than that?

Will Edler be willing to take that amount if we sign him long term, or do we make a push for Weber instead, and sign him to a big contract?

I don't think our players would have a problem signing Weber to a big contract since he definitely is a top 5 defenseman in the league. But I wonder how they would feel about Edler making the 6-7 mil, that he could easily fetch on the open market.


I agree, he did have a good post. Some of MG's best decisions have been to let players walk (Mitchell the exception).

Of Erhoff, Salo & Ohlund, all were well used by our coaching for the talent they did offer. But each had limits. Yes Salo had a bomb, but that aside him and Ohlund were both good well rounded defenders. But neither was an elite offensive nor defensive talent. They had to be surrounded by guys that complimented them to make an effective pair. That was critical with Erhoff who was better offensively and moving the puck but at times was a liability physically and at the other end. None could offer the elite speed of a Karlsson or imposing physical size of a Pronger or Weber. They were simply not worth elite money, and when they got it elsewhere our money was better spent.

I do not believe Edler will touch on that truly elite level, or warrant an $80 million deal.

But I also believe he is certainly has the ability to be as good as Ohlund defensively (close to Hamhuis but... not quite) and is already better offensively. He could, and should in today's market, touch on $5.5 and I would pay it. $7 mill and I would probably hold back and try and pay Weber $9. Given the choice I would also pay Weber...

Good post.
If Suter is worth over $7.5M per season, Weber could command as much as $9-10M per season. Unless the cap goes up drastically next year and we are parting ways with Ballard and Edler(you would also have to be assured that a prospect or two could step in at a lower cap hit)Vancouver wouldn't have the cap to sign a player like that.
Don't forget that there will be other players on the team to resign as well.


RBCanuck, take a longer look at what you just suggested?

Ten years x $7 mill = $70 mill. Suter just signed, for what, $98 million.

Suter IS worth more than Weber right? I'm definitely not hiring you as an agent if I'm a player.

:picard:

(And Doughty just signed for that as a RFA over 6 years...)

I'm sure if MG had the opportunity to lock up Weber he would sign him to extremely front loaded deal that tapered off to a cap hit at around $6.5-7 for 10+ years.


Edited by Canuck Surfer, 04 July 2012 - 04:00 PM.


#45 nucklehead2

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:13 PM

Weber

#46 brycemeat

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:15 PM

So would you rather us pay more for Garrison? Hasn't he only played like 3 seasons of hockey? I'm still with-holding my judgement on that deal to determine whether I like it or not.

#47 Samuel Påhlsson

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:18 PM

Garrison @ 4.6 >>>>>> Suter @ 7.5

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#48 WL Canuck Fan

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:23 PM

MG would have to be out of his mind to set a $4.6million cap when offering Edler a contract.
I reckon we'll have to shell out somewhere in the $5.5million-$6million range, and that is with a hometown discount.


I think that depends on this year. His performance last year at the end of the season and during the playoffs was lacking. Suter's cap hit is 7.5M, Webers cap hit was 7.5M last season. He will get the 5.5-6 if he stays consistent, 5 or a little less if not.
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#49 hardcor

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:30 PM

Derek Josilin signed as a Canuck? Wikipedia says so? and now two tweets under \canucks...

#50 CanuckinEdm

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:33 PM

I'm sure the 4.6 is not a d man cap it's probably a internal system they have setup ie.
Elite dmen 7 mil +
1-2 dman 5-6mil
3-4 dman 4-5
And so on

#51 Canucksfor2012

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:37 PM


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Have the #Canucks signed former Carolina D-man Derek Joslin? His sister says so. Joslin, 25, bought out by Canes.

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#52 SimplyHockey

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:51 PM

With the signing of Garrison at 4.6 mil, and Gillis stating that he had to fit into our internal cap structure, does that mean that no defenseman on this team will make more than that?

Will Edler be willing to take that amount if we sign him long term, or do we make a push for Weber instead, and sign him to a big contract?

I don't think our players would have a problem signing Weber to a big contract since he definitely is a top 5 defenseman in the league. But I wonder how they would feel about Edler making the 6-7 mil, that he could easily fetch on the open market.


I appreciate the fact that players would like to make as much money as they can when they negotiate a contract however, I don't think the amount of money is the only factor they consider. I believe there is more interest in longer term contracts. Players have to keep their families in mind as well and security, knowing you do not have to negotiate a new contract and have to uproot your family is an important factor as well. Lets face it, a player should feel damn secure making 5M or the course of 5 years, with little to worry about, especially when a signing bonus is over and above the 25M salary earned during the term of the contract.
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#53 SimplyHockey

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:00 PM

Yes that is the max.

Weber will be offered a deal for 4.6 million for 20 years, age 28 to 48.

Seriously though, if he wants to play here it will be for 6.5 or 7. Sedin-like contract with inflation. We dot have to overpay if the player wants to play here - but we don't underpay either...

But maybe mg will surprise and offer him 8-9 but I doubt it.


I do believe they limited the terms of contracts to 13 years did they not. Bettman stated that the league would not accept deals longer than that
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#54 bluesman60

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:39 PM

The thing is a player like Weber is a cornerstone piece, you can quickly build off. Our team is good now. Weber with a long term deal gives stability, you have a decent D with just him and Pylons. I say you pay whatever it takes. Defense wins Championships, if in doubt check out L.A., with their 3 defensive D- Men. Weber is a freak and must be had.

The problem with your argument is that LA won but Nashville with 2 of the top dmen in the league didn't. A balanced team wins the Cup....heck the Canucks proved that.....even they couldn't win because they couldn't score enough goals.

#55 GradinToSmyl

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:53 PM

I'd happily throw 7-7.5 at Weber over a long term contract. Not exactly a Parise/Suter length, something like Garrison's. So 6 years @ $7.5 per.


Why would Weber sign that?
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#56 DownUndaCanuck

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 06:04 PM

4.6 million is the max he is willing to throw at an above-average defenceman like Bieksa and Garrison.
I'm sure he'll spend upwards of 5 million on a star defenceman like Edler or Weber.
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#57 Corleone

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 05:24 AM

After the new cba big front loaded contracts will be gone which makes it likely that players still under contract will sign extensions to capitalize on the current situation.
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#58 ice orca

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 06:38 AM

Ditto. I really hope the new CBA reduces the amount of money a single player is allowed to make. I agree with the cap system but I don't agree with certain players being signed to ridiculous long-term deals that are heavily front loaded to circumvent the cap. The talent pool in this league seems to get smaller every year as a result.

No player should be allowed to make more than 10% of the salary cap and a player's salary should be the same as their cap hit.
With a maximum cap hit of 10% of the salary cap, a player should be able to make no more than $7.02-million per year (as of the 2012-2013 season) with a maximum term of ten years (total contract = salary cap for that year). If they want $14.04-million per year they should not be allowed to sign a contract longer than 5 years (so that the contract signed is equal to the salary cap for the year in which they signed the contract).

Players like Suter, Parise, Crosby, etc. are allowed to make $14+ million per year in salary with a cap hit of only $7.5-million, $7.5-million, and $8.7-million respectively. I understand when a player signed to a 3 year deal and makes $3.75 the first year, $4 the second year, and $4.25 million the third year that his cap hit is $4-million. That makes sense. A player signed to a 13 year $98-million contract who is making $12 the first year and $1-million the last three years is absolute BS. It's cap circumvention and it shouldn't be allowed. $12 million in salary should be a $12 million cap hit.

The cap system as it stands now is broken. I don't think there is a team in this league that hasn't circumvented it.


Have fun putting that proposal to the NHLPA.

#59 bd71

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:14 AM

I'd happily throw 7-7.5 at Weber over a long term contract. Not exactly a Parise/Suter length, something like Garrison's. So 6 years @ $7.5 per.


I think any team in the league would happily sign Weber for that deal! Heck for six years I'm guessing most teams would even go 8.5-9!

The perception seems to be that Suter and Parise took less to play in Minnesota so a so-called "hometown discount". I think that's crazy but who knows. What in the world is Weber's "hometown discount"? Surely the minimum deal for him is going to have to be $98,000,000.00 and to make the cap hit somewhat palatable it will have to be a mega long deal.

Edited by bd71, 05 July 2012 - 07:15 AM.


#60 Langdon Algur

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:00 AM

Why is everyone assuming we're going to go after Weber...? I'm so confused.

Sure, he's a great player but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would fit into our dressing room. This team isn't interested in signing big stars for huge contracts... History shows that management wants to sign undervalued players with potential and the right attitude/personality.

We're not going to be whoring ourselves out to get Weber, I can guarantee it. He's the kind of guy that thinks money first, in which case he'll get a better offer from a city that doesn't have much to offer in terms of lifestyle (i.e. Nashville...)


you mean the same management that offered Sundin $20 million? How the heck do you know Weber is the kind of guy you thinks money first btw?
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