Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo

Lottery Corp comes us snake eyes with subsidy to goalie


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
73 replies to this topic

#31 hockeyfan87

hockeyfan87

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,502 posts
  • Joined: 13-February 10

Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:59 AM

This issue is a good opportunity to bring up important questions about state sponsored 'sin' though.


Sure. I'm against it. Casinos are hot spots for drug trafficking, prostitution and so forth. The problem is the government relies on the money to support its services. People won't accept services being cut, taxes being raised, etc. So they make the shortsighted decision to expand state sponsored gambling because essentially we, the public, won't let them do otherwise.

#32 hsedin33

hsedin33

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,132 posts
  • Joined: 14-February 10

Posted 11 July 2012 - 01:59 PM

Sure. I'm against it. Casinos are hot spots for drug trafficking, prostitution and so forth. The problem is the government relies on the money to support its services. People won't accept services being cut, taxes being raised, etc. So they make the shortsighted decision to expand state sponsored gambling because essentially we, the public, won't let them do otherwise.


They cut services and raise taxes anyways :P

#33 :D

:D

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,165 posts
  • Joined: 14-August 03

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

Sure. I'm against it. Casinos are hot spots for drug trafficking, prostitution and so forth.


As someone who works at and visits Casinos on the regular, let me tell you, they are not.

#34 ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

ThaBestPlaceOnEarth

    Canucks Regular

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,093 posts
  • Joined: 13-June 07

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:07 PM

If the BCLC thinks that they get more value from the publicity of Luongo representing them than they do from the money they pay him to do it, who am I to disagree? I've never seen their budget so I can't make that judgment. Corporations pay celebrities all the time to boost their image so presumably it's an effective marketing tactic. No controversy if you ask me. If they weren't paying Luongo they'd probably pay some other celebrity who gets less exposure, which would mean taxpayers would lose value.

Ceterum censeo Chicaginem delendam esse


#35 taxi

taxi

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,826 posts
  • Joined: 16-September 06

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:11 PM

Sure. I'm against it. Casinos are hot spots for drug trafficking, prostitution and so forth.


I'm not advocated for or against gambling, but if that's your argument then a lot of other things should be banned first: bars, nightclubs, restaurants, social gatherings of any kind, etc...


Have you ever actually been in a casino before? Try openly selling drugs or prostituting inside. See how long it takes the security gaurds to get you. Now try finding those same things in your average Vancouver nightclub.

Edited by taxi, 11 July 2012 - 02:34 PM.


#36 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:13 PM

As someone who works at and visits Casinos on the regular, let me tell you, they are not.

where do you work now, anyways? i know you left alberta recently, not sure where you ended up though.

#37 :D

:D

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,165 posts
  • Joined: 14-August 03

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:16 PM

where do you work now, anyways? i know you left alberta recently, not sure where you ended up though.


I've been off since moving back to the GVRD.
One thing about Alberta, is that they just throw money at you. Thanks Alberta for allowing me to coast through the summer.

#38 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 11 July 2012 - 02:17 PM

I'm not advocated for or against gambling, but if that's your argument then a lot of other things should be banned first: bars, nightclubs, restaurants, social gatherings of any kind, etc...


Have you ever actually been in a casino before? Try openly selling booze or prostituting inside. See how long it takes the security gaurds to get you. Now try finding those same things in your average Vancouver nightclub.

it's true. I've never walked into a casino bathroom to a group of people, of both sexes, in a smoking circle, allowing anyone to jump in and take a toke at will. it's pretty much expected anytime i've ever been to a club.

I've also never been solicited outside (or inside) a casino, I can't say that about a club.

Edited by avelanch, 11 July 2012 - 02:18 PM.


#39 hockeyfan87

hockeyfan87

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,502 posts
  • Joined: 13-February 10

Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:40 PM

I'm not advocated for or against gambling, but if that's your argument then a lot of other things should be banned first: bars, nightclubs, restaurants, social gatherings of any kind, etc...


Have you ever actually been in a casino before? Try openly selling drugs or prostituting inside. See how long it takes the security gaurds to get you. Now try finding those same things in your average Vancouver nightclub.


Yes I've been in several casinos....guess I've had different experiences...can't speak for the ones in Vancouver

#40 hockeyfan87

hockeyfan87

    Canucks Rookie

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,502 posts
  • Joined: 13-February 10

Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:43 PM

As someone who works at and visits Casinos on the regular, let me tell you, they are not.


Maybe my perception is wrong, out of curiosity which ones do you go to regularly? Not that I doubt that this was your experience..just curious.

#41 Tortorella's Rant

Tortorella's Rant

    Canucks Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,637 posts
  • Joined: 11-April 12

Posted 11 July 2012 - 03:53 PM

LOL. What makes that 10K different than the other 675 lumps of 10K he made last year?


What?

He's being paid a huge wad of cash to do something he enjoys in his spare time. It's not like he needs the money anyway. He can afford it himself, duh. Donating what he has left at the end of tournament or his winning's, or whatever, would be a nice gesture.
Posted Image

#42 :D

:D

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 21,165 posts
  • Joined: 14-August 03

Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:01 PM

Maybe my perception is wrong, out of curiosity which ones do you go to regularly? Not that I doubt that this was your experience..just curious.


Starlight, Boulevard, Villa and Riverrock.

#43 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 12 July 2012 - 06:24 AM

Maybe my perception is wrong, out of curiosity which ones do you go to regularly? Not that I doubt that this was your experience..just curious.

i'm curious as to which ones you've "experienced" these things at.

#44 JLumme

JLumme

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,106 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 09

Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:41 AM

Casinos increase crime around the casino, not necessarily inside the casino itself... http://www.freedomfo...ls, 4.29.11.pdf

#45 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:27 AM

but the argument is that a casino is a hotspot for drug trafficking and prostitution, neither of which are in that report.

it merely reports on: larcenies, burglaries, auto thefts, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults. but the same results can be found in most places that serve alcohol, like nightclubs, bars, sports stadiums, amusement parks, etc. Also, you are basically creating a gathering space for people that would not normally be in that area, creating an increase in temporary population (ones that don't live there, but come to visit/shop/gamble/ whatever), will create an increase in crime, because the people committing the crimes know it's a place to go to find victims. and it makes it appears that the crimes per capita goes up, because they only compare it against the permanent population, they don't take into account the giant leap in population coming in from outside their population zone.

the study is flawed because it doesn't compare it against other population gathering institutions or alcohol serving institutions. it just says that you add a casino and crime goes up, but you add population in general and crime goes up, and it doesn't take into account the increase in temporary population.

Edited by avelanch, 12 July 2012 - 11:30 AM.


#46 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,286 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:35 AM

I have the feeling most people here are not aware of all the services BC has that are almost completely funded through the BCLC.
Without the Lottery, BC would still be swimming in debt from Expo 86.

Jagermeister.jpg


#47 JLumme

JLumme

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,106 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 09

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:42 AM

but the argument is that a casino is a hotspot for drug trafficking and prostitution, neither of which are in that report.

it merely reports on: larcenies, burglaries, auto thefts, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults.  but the same results can be found in most places that serve alcohol, like nightclubs, bars, sports stadiums, amusement parks, etc.  Also, you are basically creating a gathering space for people that would not normally be in that area, creating an increase in temporary population (ones that don't live there, but come to visit/shop/gamble/ whatever), will create an increase in crime, because the people committing the crimes know it's a place to go to find victims.  and it makes it appears that the crimes per capita goes up, because they only compare it against the permanent population, they don't take into account the giant leap in population coming in from outside their population zone.  

the study is flawed because it doesn't compare it against other population gathering institutions or alcohol serving institutions.  it just says that you add a casino and crime goes up, but you add population in general and crime goes up, and it doesn't take into account the increase in temporary population.


Its funny, maybe not haha funny but you know what I mean, but I think drug trafficking and prostitution shouldn't really be crimes. The crimes listed in that report however, should be.

To your point, Casinos bring in all the same types of crime that clubs and bars do, in addition to other types of crimes that you don't typically find at clubs and bars because they don't have the same amount of cash associated with them. Such as money laundering, loan sharking & extortion. This makes them causes of small time crime like robbery, to fund the gambling addicts, more serious organized crime because of the above mentioned crimes, and causes of financial ruin & suicide.

The vast majority of gambling revenue is done by those who can least afford to do, repeat, poor, and very sad customers.

#48 JLumme

JLumme

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,106 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 09

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:44 AM

I have the feeling most people here are not aware of all the services BC has that are almost completely funded through the BCLC.
Without the Lottery, BC would still be swimming in debt from Expo 86.


That's not true. Every single cent made from the lottery comes from taxpayers, its just a voluntary tax on people either too weak, or too ignorant to handle their finances/addictions.

#49 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,286 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

The vast majority of gambling revenue is done by those who can least afford to do, repeat, poor, and very sad customers.


That's not true. Every single cent made from the lottery comes from taxpayers, its just a voluntary tax on people either too weak, or too ignorant to handle their finances/addictions.


It's the same thing with Alcohol abuse. Does this mean you are also against BCL?
Heck, I buy alcohol and lotto every once in a while (just started with the Lotto), and I would much rather have a portion of those costs go towards helping out to pay for government services then have them all go into some private companies pockets.

Edited by Jagermeister, 12 July 2012 - 11:49 AM.

Jagermeister.jpg


#50 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

It's the same thing with Alcohol abuse. Does this mean you are also against BCL?
Heck, I buy alcohol and lotto every once in a while (just started with the Lotto), and I would much rather have a portion of those costs go towards helping out to pay for government services then have them all go into some private companies pockets.

can't be, because he thinks drug trafficking shouldn't be a crime, and the same thing can be said about drug abuse as well. and for the record, i think a number of recreational drugs should be legalized much like alcohol, to help recoup some of the money lost to their treatment by the government.

Edited by avelanch, 12 July 2012 - 11:53 AM.


#51 JLumme

JLumme

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,106 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 09

Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:54 AM

It's the same thing with Alcohol abuse.  Does this mean you are also against BCL?
Heck, I buy alcohol and lotto every once in a while (just started with the Lotto), and I would much rather have a portion of those costs go towards helping out to pay for government services then have them all go into some private companies pockets.


Yes, in fact I am very against the BCL. Pretty much every other country in world has privitized liquor sales except Canada. Why shouldn't I be able to buy alcohol in a grocery store? Its absurd. You can still tax alcohol and gambling, it doesn't have to be run by the state. See Europe & the US for examples.

#52 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

Yes, in fact I am very against the BCL. Pretty much every other country in world has privitized liquor sales except Canada. Why shouldn't I be able to buy alcohol in a grocery store? Its absurd. You can still tax alcohol and gambling, it doesn't have to be run by the state. See Europe & the US for examples.

ahh, that I agree about, but wouldn't increasing availability increase those issues? you know, the voluntary tax on people either too weak, or too ignorant to handle their finances/addictions, and the majority of revenue coming from those who can least afford to do; repeat, poor, and very sad customers.

Edited by avelanch, 12 July 2012 - 12:03 PM.


#53 JLumme

JLumme

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,106 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 09

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:11 PM

ahh, that I agree about, but wouldn't increasing availability increase those issues


With alcohol, I think that increasing the availablity of it allows people to be better educated on it. Increasing the availability takes away the mystique and coolness factor that causes a lot of teens to drink excessively. Gambling is a completely different issue. I enjoy gambling to some extent, mostly making a bet on sports now and then, or having a home game of poker, but I have a NIMBY attitude towards it. People should be allowed to gamble, but it shouldn't be convinient, if that makes any sense. Also, I think that certain types of gambling that are most prone to addiction -- slots and VLTs being the most obvious examples -- should be banned outright.

#54 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,286 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:12 PM

Yes, in fact I am very against the BCL. Pretty much every other country in world has privitized liquor sales except Canada. Why shouldn't I be able to buy alcohol in a grocery store? Its absurd. You can still tax alcohol and gambling, it doesn't have to be run by the state. See Europe & the US for examples.


Issue there is, privatizing Alcohol means that the prices will be driven up.
The private liquor stores around my area sell 26's around $5 more than they are at the BCL. If we are still going to tax it, that would just mean these poor, low income fellows will be spending even more to feed their addiction.

ahh, that I agree about, but wouldn't increasing availability increase those issues? you know, the voluntary tax on people either too weak, or too ignorant to handle their finances/addictions, and the majority of revenue coming from those who can least afford to do; repeat, poor, and very sad customers.


Precisely.

Jagermeister.jpg


#55 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:17 PM

With alcohol, I think that increasing the availablity of it allows people to be better educated on it. Increasing the availability takes away the mystique and coolness factor that causes a lot of teens to drink excessively. Gambling is a completely different issue. I enjoy gambling to some extent, mostly making a bet on sports now and then, or having a home game of poker, but I have a NIMBY attitude towards it. People should be allowed to gamble, but it shouldn't be convinient, if that makes any sense. Also, I think that certain types of gambling that are most prone to addiction -- slots and VLTs being the most obvious examples -- should be banned outright.

but alcohol is far more addicting, and is chemically addicting, than any forms of gambling. I just don't get your logic on this.

i'm not against either one, i'm just saying I don't get where you're coming from on this.

Edited by avelanch, 12 July 2012 - 12:20 PM.


#56 Jägermeister

Jägermeister

    Canucks First-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,286 posts
  • Joined: 24-May 12

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:19 PM

With alcohol, I think that increasing the availablity of it allows people to be better educated on it. Increasing the availability takes away the mystique and coolness factor that causes a lot of teens to drink excessively. Gambling is a completely different issue. I enjoy gambling to some extent, mostly making a bet on sports now and then, or having a home game of poker, but I have a NIMBY attitude towards it. People should be allowed to gamble, but it shouldn't be convinient, if that makes any sense. Also, I think that certain types of gambling that are most prone to addiction -- slots and VLTs being the most obvious examples -- should be banned outright.


I disagree with availability reducing underage kids drinking. As I was underage not to long ago, believe me, if it is available, kids will take it. Something I noticed is that private stores are a lot less thorough checking to make sure ID's are valid. Some privatized liquor stores don't seem to care that much if they sell to underage kids, they just want to maximize their profits.

I somewhat agree with you on slots, because people will waste away their money without even really realizing it, plus it is always a win-win for the Casino, since the machines are rigged so that they can come out with a profit. If people were more educated on that fact, I think it could solve a few problems, but still, people do need to be responsible for their own actions. There is no real dependency on gambling like there is on substances like alcohol. People just get too far down in the hole, that they feel obligated to try and win it all back, and slots are by far the worst form of gambling to be able to do that.

Edited by Jagermeister, 12 July 2012 - 12:23 PM.

Jagermeister.jpg


#57 JLumme

JLumme

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,106 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 09

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:24 PM

Issue there is, privatizing Alcohol means that the prices will be driven up.
The private liquor stores around my area sell 26's around $5 more than they are at the BCL.  If we are still going to tax it, that would just mean these poor, low income fellows will be spending even more to feed their addiction.



Precisely.


Those are 'private' liquor stores within a province that has control of all sales of alcohol. The price of alcohol in countries with truly privitized systems is a fraction of the cost here in Canada. You can get a bottle of wine in France for 80 cents, and a 24 of beer in the US for 10 bucks.

#58 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:27 PM

I disagree with availability reducing underage kids drinking. As I was underage not to long ago, believe me, if it is available, kids will take it. Something I noticed is that private stores are a lot less thorough checking to make sure ID's are valid. Some privatized liquor stores don't seem to care that much if they sell to underage kids, they just want to maximize their profits.

I somewhat agree with you on slots, because people will waste away their money without even really realizing it, plus it is always a win-win for the Casino, since the machines are rigged so that they can come out with a profit. If people were more educated on that fact, I think it could solve a few problems, but still, people do need to be responsible for their own actions. There is no real dependency on gambling like there is on substances like alcohol. People just get too far down in the hole, that they feel obligated to try and win it all back, and slots are by far the worst form of gambling to be able to do that.

agreed on everything. the payback percentage for slots is by far the worst of any casino game, followed closely by every single "insurance" offering at any table game.

#59 avelanch

avelanch

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 36,225 posts
  • Joined: 23-March 07

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:30 PM

Those are 'private' liquor stores within a province that has control of all sales of alcohol. The price of alcohol in countries with truly privitized systems is a fraction of the cost here in Canada. You can get a bottle of wine in France for 80 cents, and a 24 of beer in the US for 10 bucks.

a lot of that has to do with the amount of tax put on all alcohol sales in canada, which would not go away with privatization. but the ability to compete on price would drive prices down. it wouldn't be cheaper than/as cheap as the US, but it would be less than it is now.

#60 JLumme

JLumme

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,106 posts
  • Joined: 06-January 09

Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:31 PM

but alcohol is far more addicting, and is chemically addicting, than any forms of gambling.  I just don't get your logic on this.

i'm not against either one, i'm just saying I don't get where you're coming from on this.


People are going to drink (and do drugs) no matter what, but people aren't going to gamble no matter what. You can test that imperically by looking at how well prohibition works, and gambling rates with respect to how close one lives to a casino. If people don't live near a casino or slots, the vast majority of those people won't gamble, if they do live near a casino, gambling rates increase dramatically. On the flip side, if alcohol (or more recently and comparibly, drugs) is illegal/controlled/restricted it doesn't change the rate of usage. I can find a study that I read a little while ago that proves the gambling/proximity thing if you want.




Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.