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Muslim and Jewish groups denounce German circumcision ruling


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#1 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 09:56 AM

Muslim and Jewish groups denounce German circumcision ruling

European Jewish and Muslim groups have joined forces to defend circumcision for young boys on religious grounds after a German regional court ruled it amounted to bodily harm.Continue reading the main story


A joint statement says the practice is fundamental to their faiths and calls for it to be awarded legal protection.
The ruling by the Cologne court - also criticised by the Israeli parliament - does not apply to the whole of Germany.
But Germany's Medical Association told doctors not to perform circumcisions.
Thousands of Muslim and Jewish boys are circumcised in Germany every year.
The unusual joint statement was signed by leaders of groups including the Rabbinical Centre of Europe, the European Jewish Parliament, the European Jewish Association, Germany's Turkish-Islamic Union for Religious Affairs and the Islamic Centre Brussels.

"We consider this to be an affront (to) our basic religious and human rights," it said.
"Circumcision is an ancient ritual that is fundamental to our individual faiths and we protest in the strongest possible terms against this court ruling.
"To that end we will vigorously defend our right to maintain our mutual tradition and call on the German parliament and all political parties to intervene in overruling this decision as a matter of urgency."
The leaders also met members of the European parliament and the Bundestag to express their anger and insist that the German parliament establish clear legal protections for the rite.
The BBC's Stephen Evans in Berlin says the German government is clearly uneasy about the ruling, particularly after accusations that it was inappropriate for the country of the Holocaust to outlaw a fundamental ritual of Judaism.
The ruling by the Cologne court followed a legal case involving a doctor who carried out a circumcision on a four year-old that led to medical complications.
The court said that a child's right to physical integrity trumped religious and parental rights.
The doctor involved in the case was acquitted and the ruling was not binding. However, critics fear it could set a precedent that could be followed by other German courts.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-18807040

Nothing brings Jews and Muslims together like their love for cutting baby penises. :sick:

Edited by Scorpio Ego, 12 July 2012 - 09:57 AM.

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My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#2 Drybone

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 09:59 AM

Muslim and Jewish groups denounce German circumcision ruling



Nothing brings Jews and Muslims together like their love for cutting baby penises. :sick:


Atheists cannot survive without putting others down.
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#3 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:11 AM

"On the plus side, circumcised infants are less likely to develop urinary tract infections (UTIs), especially in the first year of life. UTIs are about 10 times more common in uncircumcised compared with circumcised infants. However, even with this increased risk of UTI, only 1% or less of uncircumcised males will be affected.
Circumcised men may also be at lower risk for penile cancer, although the disease is rare in both circumcised and uncircumcised males. Some studies indicate that the procedure might offer an additional line of defense against sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including HIV.
Penile problems, such as irritation, inflammation, and infection, are more common in uncircumcised males. It's easier to keep a circumcised penis clean, although uncircumcised boys can learn how to clean beneath the foreskin once the foreskin becomes retractable (usually some time before age 5).
Some people claim that circumcision either lessens or heightens the sensitivity of the tip of the penis, decreasing or increasing sexual pleasure later in life. But neither of these subjective findings has been proved.
Although circumcision appears to have some medical benefits, it also carries potential risks — as does any surgical procedure. These risks are small, but you should be aware of both the possible advantages and the problems before you make your decision. Complications of newborn circumcision are uncommon, occurring in between 0.2% to 3% of cases. Of these, the most frequent are minor bleeding and local infection, both of which can be easily treated by your doctor.
Perhaps one of the hardest parts of the decision to circumcise is accepting that the procedure can be painful. In the past, it wasn't commonplace to provide pain relief for babies being circumcised, but because studies have indicated that it benefits the infant to receive anesthesia, most doctors will now provide it.
Also, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends the use of pain relief measures for circumcision. Even up until recently, though, anesthesia hasn't been universally used, so it's important to ask your doctor ahead of time what, if any, pain relief will be utilized with your son."

More here:

http://kidshealth.or...rcumcision.html

Edited by Heretic, 12 July 2012 - 10:11 AM.

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#4 Spitfire_Spiky

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:14 AM

The whole circumcision thing always seemed weird to me. Why cut off what is naturally there? If somebody came forward and said cutting off the pinkie toe of a child at birth was an ancient ritual it so wouldn't fly so how is this any different.
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#5 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:23 AM

The whole circumcision thing always seemed weird to me. Why cut off what is naturally there? If somebody came forward and said cutting off the pinkie toe of a child at birth was an ancient ritual it so wouldn't fly so how is this any different.


Moles are naturally there - people have them removed.

I think it's personal preference - that's all.
Forget the "religion" part of it.

When my first wife and I began to have a family, we talked about this and felt becuase I was, that if we had a son then so would he.
I was, by all definiton, an atheist at that time.

Those who joke about "cutting off the boys penis" are ignorant - circumcision is about cutting off some skin - no different than a skin tag or mole. The link I provided above gives a pretty good overview...

Again, it's a choice...

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#6 لني

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:26 AM

The whole circumcision thing always seemed weird to me. Why cut off what is naturally there? If somebody came forward and said cutting off the pinkie toe of a child at birth was an ancient ritual it so wouldn't fly so how is this any different.


The whole wearing a touque when you`re about to jump in the pool always seemed a bit weird to me...
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View Postnhlconspiracy, on 21 April 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

It is not my intent to get in circular arguments with anybody. The reason i have avoided saying anything specific is because i know you or someone else will attempt to find an alternate explanation to my points which i intern will have to defend. I see no point in getting involved with the circular argument that is already well under way in this thread. I simply intended to voice my opinion on the subject. In the end either you accept the possibility of corruption and conspiracy or you don't.

Also i find your comments to be very childish. Does taking what i say out of context, paraphrasing and misquoting it make you feel good about yourself? Grow up.

Logic at its finest.

#7 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:27 AM

"On the plus side, circumcised infants are less likely to develop urinary tract infections (UTIs), especially in the first year of life. UTIs are about 10 times more common in uncircumcised compared with circumcised infants. However, even with this increased risk of UTI, only 1% or less of uncircumcised males will be affected.
Circumcised men may also be at lower risk for penile cancer, although the disease is rare in both circumcised and uncircumcised males. Some studies indicate that the procedure might offer an additional line of defense against sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including HIV.
Penile problems, such as irritation, inflammation, and infection, are more common in uncircumcised males. It's easier to keep a circumcised penis clean, although uncircumcised boys can learn how to clean beneath the foreskin once the foreskin becomes retractable (usually some time before age 5).
Some people claim that circumcision either lessens or heightens the sensitivity of the tip of the penis, decreasing or increasing sexual pleasure later in life. But neither of these subjective findings has been proved.
Although circumcision appears to have some medical benefits, it also carries potential risks — as does any surgical procedure. These risks are small, but you should be aware of both the possible advantages and the problems before you make your decision. Complications of newborn circumcision are uncommon, occurring in between 0.2% to 3% of cases. Of these, the most frequent are minor bleeding and local infection, both of which can be easily treated by your doctor.
Perhaps one of the hardest parts of the decision to circumcise is accepting that the procedure can be painful. In the past, it wasn't commonplace to provide pain relief for babies being circumcised, but because studies have indicated that it benefits the infant to receive anesthesia, most doctors will now provide it.
Also, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) recommends the use of pain relief measures for circumcision. Even up until recently, though, anesthesia hasn't been universally used, so it's important to ask your doctor ahead of time what, if any, pain relief will be utilized with your son."

More here:

http://kidshealth.or...rcumcision.html


True, it is easier to cut the baby than to teach him how to keep clean.

Did you hear that cutting your balls off removes chance of testicular cancer? Moot point though, not like Jews and Muslims do it for the health benefits, especially when the Rabbi sucks the penis.


Moles are naturally there - people have them removed.

I think it's personal preference - that's all.
Forget the "religion" part of it.

When my first wife and I began to have a family, we talked about this and felt becuase I was, that if we had a son then so would he.
I was, by all definiton, an atheist at that time.

Those who joke about "cutting off the boys penis" are ignorant - circumcision is about cutting off some skin - no different than a skin tag or mole. The link I provided above gives a pretty good overview...

Again, it's a choice...


Your child is not your property. Your son is an individual, and you are arbitrarily cutting him to make him look like you? That is the worst "reason" to abuse a baby that I've ever heard.

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My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#8 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:37 AM


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#9 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:41 AM

True, it is easier to cut the baby than to teach him how to keep clean.

Did you hear that cutting your balls off removes chance of testicular cancer? Moot point though, not like Jews and Muslims do it for the health benefits, especially when the Rabbi sucks the penis.




Your child is not your property. Your son is an individual, and you are arbitrarily cutting him to make him look like you? That is the worst "reason" to abuse a baby that I've ever heard.


Thanks for proving my comment.

Edit: I guess you're against abortion as well eh?

Edited by Heretic, 12 July 2012 - 10:42 AM.

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#10 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:45 AM

Thanks for proving my comment.

Edit: I guess you're against abortion as well eh?


Abortion? You bring abortion into this? I'm not against circumcision per se, I am against child abuse. Hey, if your kid decides he wants to get his dick cut up all the power to him. You are taking the choice from him, and you are bring up abortion? What's wrong with your thinking unit?!

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Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#11 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:50 AM

Abortion? You bring abortion into this? I'm not against circumcision per se, I am against child abuse. Hey, if your kid decides he wants to get his dick cut up all the power to him. You are taking the choice from him, and you are bring up abortion? What's wrong with your thinking unit?!


How is it child abuse?

His choice? Wrong - I'm his father and until he's of a certain age I make his choices.

What about vacinations? Sticking a baby with a needle - Child Abuse!

See how stupid that is?

Oh, and you don't need to prove my comment anymore - once is enough.

As far as your "hatred" comment - please provide a source:

"Moot point though, not like Jews and Muslims do it for the health benefits, especially when the Rabbi sucks the penis."

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#12 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 10:51 AM

Myths about Circumcision You Likely Believe

CIrcumcision does great harm to babies
Published on September 11, 2011 by Darcia Narvaez, Ph.D. in Moral Landscapes


NOTE: Primary author is Lillian Dell'Aquila Cannon (see her blog)

When I was pregnant with my first child, I just thought that circumcision was what you did, no big deal, and that every man was circumcised. Then one day I saw a picture of a baby being circumcised, and everything changed. Just one tiny, grainy photo was enough to make me want to know more, and the more I knew, the worse it got. It turns out, circumcision really is a big deal.

Part 1 - Circumcision Surgery Myths

Myth 1: They just cut off a flap of skin.

Reality check: Not true. The foreskin is half of the penis's skin, not just a flap. In an adult man, the foreskin is 15 square inches of skin. In babies and children, the foreskin is adhered to the head of the penis with the same type of tissue that adheres fingernails to their nail beds. Removing it requires shoving a blunt probe between the foreskin and the head of the penis and then cutting down and around the whole penis. Check out these photos: http://www.drmomma.org/2011/08/intact-or-circumcised-significant.html

Myth 2: It doesn't hurt the baby.

Reality check: Wrong. In 1997, doctors in Canada did a study to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study. Even the best commonly available method of pain relief studied, the dorsal penile nerve block, did not block all the babies' pain. Some of the babies in the study were in such pain that they began choking and one even had a seizure (Lander 1997).

Myth 3: My doctor uses anesthesia.

Reality check: Not necessarily. Most newborns do not receive adequate anesthesia. Only 45% of doctors who do circumcisions use any anesthesia at all. Obstetricians perform 70% of circumcisions and are least likely to use anesthesia - only 25% do. The most common reasons why they don't? They didn't think the procedure warranted it, and it takes too long (Stang 1998). A circumcision with adequate anesthesia takes a half-hour - if they brought your baby back sooner, he was in severe pain during the surgery.

Myth 4: Even if it is painful, the baby won't remember it.

Reality check: The body is a historical repository and remembers everything. The pain of circumcision causes a rewiring of the baby's brain so that he is more sensitive to pain later (Taddio 1997, Anand 2000). Circumcision also can cause post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), depression, anger, low self-esteem and problems with intimacy (Boyle 2002, Hammond 1999, Goldman 1999). Even with a lack of explicit memory and the inability to protest - does that make it right to inflict pain? Law requires anesthesia for animal experimentation - do babies deserve any less?


Myth 5: My baby slept right through it.

Reality check: Not possible without total anesthesia, which is not available. Even the dorsal penile nerve block leaves the underside of the penis receptive to pain. Babies go into shock, which though it looks like a quiet state, is actually the body's reaction to profound pain and distress. Nurses often tell the parents "He slept right through it" so as not to upset them. Who would want to hear that his or her baby was screaming in agony?

Myth 6: It doesn't cause the baby long-term harm.

Reality check: Incorrect. Removal of healthy tissue from a non-consenting patient is, in itself, harm (more on this point later). Circumcision has an array of risks and side effects. There is a 1-3% complication rate during the newborn period alone (Schwartz 1990). Here is a short list potential complications.
Meatal Stenosis: Many circumcised boys and men suffer from meatal stenosis. This is a narrowing of the urethra which can interfere with urination and require surgery to fix.
Adhesions. Circumcised babies can suffer from adhesions, where the foreskin remnants try to heal to the head of the penis in an area they are not supposed to grow on. Doctors treat these by ripping them open with no anesthesia.
Buried penis. Circumcision can lead to trapped or buried penis - too much skin is removed, and so the penis is forced inside the body. This can lead to problems in adulthood when the man does not have enough skin to have a comfortable erection. Some men even have their skin split open when they have an erection. There are even more sexual consequences, which we will address in a future post.
Infection. The circumcision wound can become infected. This is especially dangerous now with the prevalence of hospital-acquired multi-drug resistant bacteria.
Death. Babies can even die of circumcision. Over 100 newborns die each year in the USA, mostly from loss of blood and infection (Van Howe 1997 & 2004, Bollinger 2010).



More Circumcision Myths You May Believe: Hygiene and STDs

Is circumcision cleaner and healthier?
Published on September 13, 2011 by Darcia Narvaez, Ph.D. in Moral Landscapes


There's a lot of hype about how circumcision is better for a man's health. But is it really?
Here is Part 2 of our series on myths about circumcision.
NOTE: Primary author is Lillian Dell'Aquila Cannon (see her blog)

Myth: You have to get the baby circumcised because it is really hard to keep a baby's penis clean.

Reality check: In babies, the foreskin is completely fused to the head of the penis. You cannot and should not retract it to clean it, as this would cause the child pain, and is akin to trying to clean the inside of a baby girl's vagina. The infant foreskin is perfectly designed to protect the head of the penis and keep feces out. All you have to do is wipe the outside of the penis like a finger. It is harder to keep circumcised baby's penis clean because you have to carefully clean around the wound, make sure no feces got into the wound, and apply ointment.

Myth: Little boys won't clean under their foreskins and will get infections.


Reality check: The foreskin separates and retracts on its own sometime between age 3 and puberty. Before it retracts on its own, you wipe the outside off like a finger. After it retracts on its own, it will get clean during the boy's shower or bath. Once a boy discovers this cool, new feature of his penis, he will often retract the foreskin himself during his bath or shower, and you can encourage him to rinse it off. But he should not use soap as this upsets the natural balance and is very irritating. There is nothing special that the parents need to do. Most little boys have absolutely no problem playing with their penises in the shower or anywhere else! It was harder to teach my boys to wash their hair than it was to care for their penises. (Camille 2002)

Myth: Uncircumcised penises get smelly smegma.

Reality check: Actually, smegma is produced by the genitals of both women and men during the reproductive years. Smegma is made of sebum and skin cells and lubricates the foreskin and glans in men, and the clitoral hood and inner labia in women. It is rinsed off during normal bathing and does not cause cancer or any other health problems.

Myth: "My uncle wasn't circumcised and he kept getting infections and had to be circumcised as an adult."

Reality check: Medical advice may have promoted infection in uncircumcised males. A shocking number of doctors are uneducated about the normal development of the foreskin, and they (incorrectly) tell parents that they have to retract the baby's foreskin and wash inside it at every diaper change. Doing this tears the foreskin and the tissue (called synechia) that connects it to the head of the penis, leading to scarring and infection.
Misinformation was especially prevalent during the 1950s and 60s, when most babies were circumcised and we didn't know as much about the care of the intact penis, which is why the story is always about someone's uncle. Doing this to a baby boy would be like trying to clean the inside of a baby girl's vagina with Q-tips at every diaper change. Rather than preventing problems, such practices would cause problems by introducing harmful bacteria. Remember that humans evolved from animals, so no body part that required special care would survive evolutionary pressures. The human genitals are wonderfully self-cleaning and require no special care.

Myth: My son was diagnosed with phimosis and so had to be circumcised.

Reality check: Phimosis means that the foreskin will not retract. Since children's foreskins are naturally not retractable, it is impossible to diagnose phimosis in a child. Any such diagnoses in infants are based on misinformation, and are often made in order to secure insurance coverage of circumcision in states in which routine infant circumcision is no longer covered.
Even some adult men have foreskins that do not retract, but as long as it doesn't interfere with sexual intercourse, it is no problem at all, as urination itself cleans the inside of the foreskin (note that urine is sterile when leaving the body.)
Phimosis can also be treated conservatively with a steroid cream and gentle stretching done by the man himself, should he so desire it, or, at worst, a slit on the foreskin, rather than total circumcision. (Ashfield 2003) These treatment decisions can and should be made by the adult man.

Myth: Uncircumcised boys get more urinary tract infections (UTIs.)

Reality check: This claim is based on one study that looked at charts of babies born in one hospital (Wiswell 1985). The study had many problems, including that it didn't accurately count whether or not the babies were circumcised, whether they were premature and thus more susceptible to infection in general, whether they were breastfed (breastfeeding protects against UTI), and if their foreskins had been forcibly retracted (which can introduce harmful bacteria and cause UTI) (Pisacane 1990). There have been many studies since which show either no decrease in UTI with circumcision, or else an increase in UTI from circumcision. Thus circumcision is not recommended to prevent UTI (Thompson 1990). Girls have higher rates of UTI than boys, and yet when a girl gets a UTI, she is simply prescribed antibiotics. The same treatment works for boys.

Myth: Circumcision prevents HIV/AIDS.

Reality check: Three studies in Africa several years ago that claimed that circumcision prevented AIDS and that circumcision was as effective as a 60% effective vaccine (Auvert 2005, 2006). These studies had many flaws, including that they were stopped before all the results came in. There have also been several studies that show that circumcision does not prevent HIV (Connolly 2008). There are many issues at play in the spread of STDs which make it very hard to generalize results from one population to another.
In Africa, where the recent studies have been done, most HIV transmission is through male-female sex, but in the USA, it is mainly transmitted through blood exposure (like needle sharing) and male-male sex. Male circumcision does not protect women from acquiring HIV, nor does it protect men who have sex with men (Wawer 2009, Jameson 2009).
What's worse, because of the publicity surrounding the African studies, men in Africa are now starting to believe that if they are circumcised, they do not need to wear condoms, which will increase the spread of HIV (Westercamp 2010). Even in the study with the most favorable effects of circumcision, the protective effect was only 60% - men would still have to wear condoms to protect themselves and their partners from HIV.
In the USA, during the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s and 90s, about 85% of adult men were circumcised (much higher rates of circumcision than in Africa), and yet HIV still spread.
It is important to understand, too, that the men in the African studies were adults and they volunteered for circumcision. Babies undergoing circumcision were not given the choice to decide for themselves.

Myth: Circumcision is worth it because it can save lives.

Reality check: Consider breast cancer: There is a 12% chance that a woman will get breast cancer in her lifetime. Removal of the breast buds at birth would prevent this, and yet no one would advocate doing this to a baby. It is still considered somewhat shocking when an adult woman chooses to have a prophylactic mastectomy because she has the breast cancer gene, yet this was a personal choice done based upon a higher risk of cancer. The lifetime risk of acquiring HIV is less than 2% for men, and can be lowered to near 0% through condom-wearing (Hall 2008). How, then, can we advocate prophylactic circumcision for baby boys?

Science and data do not support the practice of infant circumcision. Circumcision does not preclude the use of the condom. The adult male should have the right to make the decision for himself and not have his body permanently damaged as a baby.


Myth: You have to circumcise the baby so that he will match his dad.

Reality check: The major difference that boys notice is that dad's penis has hair, and is larger. When a boy notices the difference between his foreskin and his father's lack of one, just tell him, "When your father was born, they thought that you had to cut off the foreskin, but now we know better." Since when does parent/child bonding require a matching set of genitals? If it did, could mothers and sons bond, or fathers and daughters? The real issue at play here is protecting the father: if it is okay for his son to not be circumcised, then he did not have to be circumcised, and so he is missing something from his penis. It is not right to harm the child's body to spare the father's emotions.

Myth: My first son is circumcised, so I have to circumcise my second son.

Reality check: You can explain this to your children the same way as with the circumcised father. There are plenty of families who changed their minds after one or more sons were circumcised, and didn't circumcise any more. See here. As with the "matching dad" myth, what is really at issue here are the parents' feelings: if they don't circumcise the second son, then that means that they didn't have to circumcise the first child, and so they harmed their first child. This can be unbearably painful, but it is not right to continue to harm future children to avoid dealing with pain and regret. As they say, two wrongs do not make a right.

Myth: My husband is the one with the penis, so it is his choice.

Reality check: If your husband is circumcised, he has no idea what having a foreskin is like, and he is likely operating from a psychological position of needing to believe that what was done to him was beneficial and important. (See here for an extended discussion of pre and post circumcised adult men and much more by Marilyn Milos, director of NOCIRC.) The baby is the one who is going to have to live with the decision for the rest of his life, not your husband. The baby will be the one who has to use the penis for urination and sex -- it should be his decision.

Myth: Everyone is circumcised.

Reality check: Actually, world-wide, only 30% of men are circumcised, and most of these men are Muslim (WHO 2007). Most modern, Westernized countries have rates well below 20%. In the United States about 25 years ago, around 85% of babies were circumcised. The rates have dropped substantially to 32% in 2009, according to a report by the Centers for Disease Control (El Becheraoui 2010).


Myth: Circumcision is an important tradition that has been going on forever.

Reality check: In the United States, circumcision wasn't popularized until Victorian times, when a few doctors began to recommend it to prevent children from masturbating. Dr. Kellogg (of Corn Flakes fame) advocated circumcision for pubescent boys and girls to stop masturbation: "A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anæsthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment... In females, the author has found the application of pure carbolic acid to the clitoris an excellent means of allaying the abnormal excitement" (Kellogg 1877). Circumcision caught on among the sex-negative Victorians, but only wealthy parents could afford it. In 1932, only 31% of men were circumcised; this peaked around 85% in 1980, and has been dropping ever since (Laumann 1997, Wallerstein 1980). Far from an ancient tradition, it was only popular in post-war America; think of it as "your parent's body mod."

Myth: The other boys will make fun of him.

Reality check: What other cosmetic surgeries will we perform on our children to prevent them from being teased? Should a "flat" girl get implants? What about the boy with a small penis? What surgery would be recommended for him? Circumcised babies are the minority now, and so intact will not be mocked. Plus, as our husbands say, "You just don't look at or comment on another man's penis in the locker room."

Myth: Circumcision makes sex better for the woman.

Reality check: The function of the foreskin for women in intercourse is to seal the natural lubrication inside the vagina and provide a gentle internal massaging action. The intact penis moves in and out of its foreskin, which provides a frictionless, rolling, gliding sensation. Intact men tend to make shorter strokes that keep their bodies in contact with the clitoris more, thus aiding female orgasm (O'Hara 1999). On the other hand, the circumcised penis functions like a piston during intercourse - the head of the penis actually scrapes the lubrication out of the vagina with each stroke. As the man thrusts, his skin rubs against the vaginal entrance, causing discomfort, and sometimes pain (O'Hara 1999, Bensley 2001). Far from making sex better for women, circumcision decreases female satisfaction.

Myth: Women don't want to have sex with uncircumcised men.

Reality check: In a landmark study of US women, 85% who had experienced both circumcised and intact men preferred sex with intact men. Sex with a circumcised man was associated with pain, dryness and difficulty reaching orgasm (O'Hara 1999). In another study, women were twice as likely to reach orgasm with an intact man (Bensley 2003). Even when a woman said she preferred a circumcised partner, she had less dryness and discomfort with intact men (O'Hara 1999).


Myth: "Being circumcised doesn't affect my sex life."

Reality check: Men who are circumcised are 60% more likely to have difficulty identifying and expressing their feelings, which can cause marital difficulties (Bollinger 2010). Circumcised men are 4.5 times more likely to be diagnosed with erectile dysfunction, use drugs like Viagra, and to suffer from premature ejaculation (Bollinger 2010, Tang 2011). Men who were circumcised as adults experienced decreased sensation and decreased quality of erection, and both they and their partners experienced generally less satisfaction with sex (Kim 2007, Solinis 2007).


Myth: "If I were any more sensitive, it would be a problem."

Reality check: The foreskin contains several special structures that increase sexual pleasure, including the frenulum and ridged band (the end of the foreskin where it becomes internal), both of which are removed in circumcision. The LEAST sensitive parts of the foreskin are more sensitive than the MOST sensitive parts of the circumcised penis (Sorrells 2007). In other words, if you wanted to decrease a penis' sensitivity the most, circumcision would be the ideal surgery. The foreskin has nerves called fine-touch receptors which are clustered in the ridged band (Cold 1999). This type of nerve is also found in the lips and fingertips. To get an idea of the sensation these nerves provide, try this experiment: first lightly stroke your fingertip over the back of the other hand. Now stroke your fingertip over the palm of your hand. Feel the difference? That is the kind of sensation the foreskin provides, and the circumcised man is missing.


It may feel like the penis is overly sensitive to a circumcised man because there is little sensation left to indicate excitement, leading to unexpected premature ejaculation (a common problem with circumcised young men). However, as circumcised penises age they become calloused and much less sensitive.

http://www.psycholog...-likely-believe

Edited by Sharpshooter, 12 July 2012 - 10:52 AM.

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#13 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:07 AM

Q: Will it hurt my baby?

A: Dr. Pollock has published a study that shows his pain control process is highly effective. Many babies can sleep right through the entire under 30 second procedure. Most babies experience little or no pain at all.



From: http://www.circumcisionvancouver.com/



"
Risks and benefits of circumcision

Problems from the surgery are usually minor. Although serious complications are rare, they do occur. Newborn circumcision has been associated with surgical mistakes, such as having too much skin removed.
Of every 1,000 boys who are circumcised:
  • 20 to 30 will have a surgical complication, such as too much bleeding or infection in the area.
  • 2 to 3 will have a more serious complication that needs more treatment. Examples include having too much skin removed or more serious bleeding.
  • 2 will be admitted to hospital for a urinary tract infection (UTI) before they are one year old.
  • About 10 babies may need to have the circumcision done again because of a poor result.
In rare cases, pain relief methods and medicines can cause side effects and complications. You should talk to your baby’s doctor about the possible risks.
Of every 1,000 boys who are not circumcised:
  • 7 will be admitted to hospital for a UTI before they are one year old.
  • 10 will have a circumcision later in life for medical reasons, such as a condition called phimosis. Phimosis is when the opening of the foreskin is scarred and narrow because of infections in the area that keep coming back. Older children who are circumcised may need a general anesthetic, and may have more complications than newborns.
Circumcision slightly lowers the risk of developing cancer of the penis in later life. However, this form of cancer is very rare. One of every one million men who are circumcised will develop cancer of the penis each year. By comparison, 3 of every one million men who are not circumcised will develop penile cancer each year.
  • Pain relief:
  • Newborn babies do feel pain. Without pain relief, circumcision is painful. Acetaminophen (such as Tempra or Tylenol) or EMLA cream, which numbs the skin, won’t be enough.
  • here is more than one way to do a circumcision. Studies show that the amount of pain depends on what method is used. The Mogen clamp seems to cause less pain than the Plastibell or Gomco technique.
  • Your baby will need a local anesthetic (dorsal penile nerve block or subpubic block technique), given by a needle in the area where the circumcision is done. EMLA cream should also be used to reduce the pain of giving the needle for the anesthetic.
  • Anesthetics do carry risks, and the needle can cause bruising or swelling.
  • Sucking on a pacifier or gauze soaked with a sugar solution may help relieve the pain.
  • Your baby should receive acetaminophen when the local anesthetic wears off. It should be given for 48 hours, or longer if he is still uncomfortable."

From: http://www.caringfor...ts/circumcision



"Conclusions

We undertook this literature review to consider whether the CPS should change its position on routine neonatal circumcision from that stated in 1982. The review led us to conclude the following.
  • There is evidence that circumcision results in an approximately 12-fold reduction in the incidence of UTI during infancy. The overall incidence of UTI in male infants appears to be 1% to 2%.
  • The incidence rate of the complications of circumcision reported in published articles varies, but it is generally in the order of 0.2% to 2%. Most complications are minor, but occasionally serious complications occur. There is a need for good epidemiological data on the incidence of the surgical complications of circumcision, of the later complications of circumcision and of problems associated with lack of circumcision.
  • Evaluation of alternative methods of preventing UTI in infancy is required.
  • More information on the effect of simple hygienic interventions is needed.
  • Information is required on the incidence of circumcision that is truly needed in later childhood.
  • There is evidence that circumcision results in a reduction in the incidence of penile cancer and of HIV transmission. However, there is inadequate information to recommend circumcision as a public health measure to prevent these diseases.
  • When circumcision is performed, appropriate attention needs to be paid to pain relief.
  • The overall evidence of the benefits and harms of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns. There is therefore no indication that the position taken by the CPS in 1982 should be changed.
  • When parents are making a decision about circumcision, they should be advised of the present state of medical knowledge about its benefits and harms. Their decision may ultimately be based on personal, religious or cultural factors. "
From: http://www.cps.ca/en.../FN/fn96-01.htm

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#14 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:13 AM

Of every 1,000 boys who are circumcised:
  • 20 to 30 will have a surgical complication, such as too much bleeding or infection in the area.

VS


Of every 1,000 boys who are not circumcised:
  • 7 will be admitted to hospital for a UTI before they are one year old.

Circumcision is a “non-therapeutic” procedure, which means it is not medically necessary.



http://www.caringfor...ts/circumcision

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#15 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:17 AM

How is it child abuse?

His choice? Wrong - I'm his father and until he's of a certain age I make his choices.

What about vacinations? Sticking a baby with a needle - Child Abuse!

See how stupid that is?

Oh, and you don't need to prove my comment anymore - once is enough.

As far as your "hatred" comment - please provide a source:

"Moot point though, not like Jews and Muslims do it for the health benefits, especially when the Rabbi sucks the penis."


Are you defensive of parents' right to mutilate their daughters?

It's pretty stupid to compare vaccinations with circumcision. One has helped humans eliminate disease and improve life span, another cuts an invaluable organ for dubious, minor benefit that can be achieved with proper hygiene. And weren't you just talking about how it's to make your kid look like you? Goddamn I hope you don't decide to cut other parts of him to make him look more like you. Not that there would be anything wrong with it, according to you.

Source for what? That Rabbis suck the baby's penis after circumcision?


The Circumcision Ritual

Circumcision consists of three actions: milah — cutting the foreskin with a knife, peri'ah — ripping the membrane with a fingernail, and mezizah — applying the mouth to the baby's bleeding penis and sucking blood from the wound.
http://www.come-and-...ditor/br_4.html

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#16 canucks since 77

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:21 AM

I'm a mutant. I was born without a foreskin. My five brothers got snipped with no complications though. Were they just lucky?
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#17 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:26 AM

Are you defensive of parents' right to mutilate their daughters?

It's pretty stupid to compare vaccinations with circumcision. One has helped humans eliminate disease and improve life span, another cuts an invaluable organ for dubious, minor benefit that can be achieved with proper hygiene. And weren't you just talking about how it's to make your kid look like you? Goddamn I hope you don't decide to cut other parts of him to make him look more like you. Not that there would be anything wrong with it, according to you.

Source for what? That Rabbis suck the baby's penis after circumcision?


The Circumcision Ritual

Circumcision consists of three actions: milah — cutting the foreskin with a knife, peri'ah — ripping the membrane with a fingernail, and mezizah — applying the mouth to the baby's bleeding penis and sucking blood from the wound.
http://www.come-and-...ditor/br_4.html


:picard: :sadno: :frantic:

I am not "defensive of parents' right to mutilate their daughters"

Pain is pain - doesn't matter the outcome - right?

I did not say "I want my son to look more like me so he should be circumsized"...

Like I said - it was a decision my wife and I at the time made before we started a family.


Ha Ha - on your link - took you long enough to backtrack on that - everyone here knows what you were aluding to - if that was it then you would have said it that way in your original comment. :lol:

Edited by Heretic, 12 July 2012 - 11:27 AM.

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#18 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:31 AM

I'm a mutant. I was born without a foreskin. My five brothers got snipped with no complications though. Were they just lucky?


Born without.....or with a very short one as to not cover your helmet? Either way, not a mutant, most likely.

Your brothers were simply not one of the ones who had complications is all. Not sure if we can define it in terms of 'luck'.

Again, it's a medically unnecessary surgery that happens to babies because of their ignorant parents.

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#19 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:39 AM

:picard: :sadno: :frantic:

I am not "defensive of parents' right to mutilate their daughters"

Pain is pain - doesn't matter the outcome - right?

I did not say "I want my son to look more like me so he should be circumsized"...

Like I said - it was a decision my wife and I at the time made before we started a family.


Ha Ha - on your link - took you long enough to backtrack on that - everyone here knows what you were aluding to - if that was it then you would have said it that way in your original comment. :lol:



So you're not defensive of parent's right to mutilate their daughters, just sons? Glad you made that clear.

Pain is pain? Where did you get that from? It hurts to fix a break in a bone too, are you going to ask if setting a child's bone right is child abuse?

You did not say "I want my son to look more like me so he should be circumsized", you said,


When my first wife and I began to have a family, we talked about this and felt becuase I was, that if we had a son then so would he.


I wasn't quoting, I was paraphrasing. Now I'm quoting. You're the one backtracking. Well okay, tell me how it was about the health benefits...

Took me long enough? What was I alluding to? I don't understand what's wrong with what I said in my original comment. "Moot point though, not like Jews and Muslims do it for the health benefits, especially when the Rabbi sucks the penis." That doesn't say that a Rabbi puts his lips on a baby's penis after circumcision and performs a sucking action? Wait, do you actually think I was alluding to a Rabbi trying to get the baby off? After a circumcision?

The wording was to convey that the premise they do so (suck the penis) for health benefit is false because the mouth is full of germs that can pass disease. The rabbi that gave three babies herpes came to mind during my post.

Edited by Scorpio Ego, 12 July 2012 - 11:44 AM.

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#20 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:41 AM

Born without.....or with a very short one as to not cover your helmet? Either way, not a mutant, most likely.

Your brothers were simply not one of the ones who had complications is all. Not sure if we can define it in terms of 'luck'.

Again, it's a medically unnecessary surgery that happens to babies because of their ignorant parents.


May be "medically unnecessary" but not because of "ignorant parents".

Remember, the knowledge we have today wasn't available 30 years ago (no source - just based on experience).

Heck - 50 years ago the public at large thought it was safe to smoke - are you saying that everyone who smokes today is ignorant as well?

It's not mediaclly neccessary to remove most moles or have some sort of plastic surgery...or change a slight defect...

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#21 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:45 AM

So you're not defensive of parent's right to mutilate their daughters, just sons? Glad you made that clear.

Pain is pain? Where did you get that from? It hurts to fix a break in a bone too, are you going to ask if setting a child's bone right is child abuse?

You did not say "I want my son to look more like me so he should be circumsized", you said,




I wasn't quoting, I was paraphrasing. Now I'm quoting. You're the one backtracking. Well okay, tell me how it was about the health benefits...

Took me long enough? What was I alluding to? I don't understand what's wrong with what I said in my original comment. "Moot point though, not like Jews and Muslims do it for the health benefits, especially when the Rabbi sucks the penis." That doesn't say that a Rabbi puts his lips on a baby's penis after circumcision and performs a sucking action? Wait, do you actually think I was alluding to a Rabbi trying to get the baby off? After a circumcision?


Wrong - I didn't say I was defensive of "mutilating" sons - just stop it please.

Stop paraprhasing.

Stop atttacking.

If you can't put 2 and 2 together on the last one then you're not as smart as I thought you were.

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#22 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

May be "medically unnecessary" but not because of "ignorant parents".

Remember, the knowledge we have today wasn't available 30 years ago (no source - just based on experience).

Heck - 50 years ago the public at large thought it was safe to smoke - are you saying that everyone who smokes today is ignorant as well?

It's not mediaclly neccessary to remove most moles or have some sort of plastic surgery...or change a slight defect...


They have the info and research now. Whatever happened because of medical ignorance in the past, is past....whatever happens now with up to date medical knowledge and research buttressing the case against the unnecessary need for circumcision seems now solely at the feet of ignorant parents.

and foreskin =/= moles.

Apples and oranges.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 12 July 2012 - 11:48 AM.

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#23 Satan's Evil Twin

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:50 AM

Wrong - I didn't say I was defensive of "mutilating" sons - just stop it please.

Stop paraprhasing.

Stop atttacking.

If you can't put 2 and 2 together on the last one then you're not as smart as I thought you were.


How is it child abuse?

His choice? Wrong - I'm his father and until he's of a certain age I make his choices.

What about vacinations? Sticking a baby with a needle - Child Abuse!

See how stupid that is?

Oh, and you don't need to prove my comment anymore - once is enough.

As far as your "hatred" comment - please provide a source:

"Moot point though, not like Jews and Muslims do it for the health benefits, especially when the Rabbi sucks the penis."


Let me try it again.

Are you defensive of parents' right to mutilate circumcise their daughters?

Stop paraphrasing? Why, getting tired of being embarrassed all the time? Try paying attention to what you say instead.

Stop attacking? Who's attacking? You're saying things that contradict the things I say, and I explain why you're wrong with your own words. Stop crying, please.

I'm crushed. Now that's out of the way, want to help me put 2 and 2 together?

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My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


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#24 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:54 AM

They have the info and research now. Whatever happened because of medical ignorance in the past, is past....whatever happens now with up to date medical knowledge and research buttressing the case against the unnecessary need for circumcision seems now solely at the feet of ignorant parents.

and foreskin =/= moles.

Apples and oranges.


I can agree with that except the part about ignorant parents.
Maybe some just do it becuase of religion or because of who knows why - but just becuase a family decides in a way that you don't like doesn't make them ignorant - that's all I'm saying...

I spent a long time making my decision, talking with family, friends, doctors and reading...course it's really a mute point as I only have 2 daughters from back then.

Then why am I being such a "take the other side" on this?
Because I don't like one sided arguements - in order for people to make a well informed decision they need to see all sides...

Just like abortion.

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#25 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:57 AM


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#26 Heretic

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 11:58 AM

Let me try it again.

Are you defensive of parents' right to mutilate circumcise their daughters?

Stop paraphrasing? Why, getting tired of being embarrassed all the time? Try paying attention to what you say instead.

Stop attacking? Who's attacking? You're saying things that contradict the things I say, and I explain why you're wrong with your own words. Stop crying, please.

I'm crushed. Now that's out of the way, want to help me put 2 and 2 together?


I am not defensive of parents' right to mutilate circumcise their daughters.

You pay attention to what I'm saying and then at least we would have a civil conversation.

No, I won't waste my time explaing 2 and 2 for you.

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#27 Sharpshooter

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:07 PM

I can agree with that except the part about ignorant parents.
Maybe some just do it becuase of religion or because of who knows why - but just becuase a family decides in a way that you don't like doesn't make them ignorant - that's all I'm saying...

I spent a long time making my decision, talking with family, friends, doctors and reading...course it's really a mute point as I only have 2 daughters from back then.

Then why am I being such a "take the other side" on this?
Because I don't like one sided arguements - in order for people to make a well informed decision they need to see all sides...

Just like abortion.


Religion and social norms seem to be the leading reasons it seems.

It's not about what I like and what I don't like....it has to do with putting a baby through an unnecessary surgery, when it's been shown and common knowledge in the medical community that it's unnecessary.

The parents who dismiss the knowledge from the medical and research community in order to serve their religious dogmas or for aesthetic purposes, are very much willfully ignoring sound expert knowledge, or they simply don't bother to pay attention to the evidence or the reasoning behind not circumcising their children, whether male or female, then that is the very definition of the word ignorance.

If your reasoning is based solely on religious grounds...then say so....but don't try to mask your personal decision in the past or the decisions of parents today as being a medically necessary one.

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#28 Hotdawg

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:07 PM

.......

Edited by hockeyville88, 12 July 2012 - 12:26 PM.
Wow that was just a wall of inappropriate text


#29 Mr. Ambien

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:18 PM

Religion and social norms seem to be the leading reasons it seems.

It's not about what I like and what I don't like....it has to do with putting a baby through an unnecessary surgery, when it's been shown and common knowledge in the medical community that it's unnecessary.

The parents who dismiss the knowledge from the medical and research community in order to serve their religious dogmas or for aesthetic purposes, are very much willfully ignoring sound expert knowledge, or they simply don't bother to pay attention to the evidence or the reasoning behind not circumcising their children, whether male or female, then that is the very definition of the word ignorance.

If your reasoning is based solely on religious grounds...then say so....but don't try to mask your personal decision in the past or the decisions of parents today as being a medically necessary one.

If by dismissing to the "myth vs reality check" link you provided equates to "wilfully ignoring sound expert knowledge", I seriously doubt the anti-circumcision camp is all that much concerned about health either, but more with their political axe to grind that involves parents and their own babies. While it is not "necessary" for a male to be circumcised, calling it mutilation, especially side by side with female circumcision, which is vastly different, is the type of propaganda I ignore when deciding these things for my child, along with the superficial aesthetic and religious nonsense ones. I'm honestly so tired of how one group tries to intervene in parental decisions in the past to push their circumcision propaganda, and now another group is doing the same thing to push their anti-circumcision propaganda.

Edited by zaibatsu, 12 July 2012 - 12:21 PM.


#30 Stefan

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:19 PM

I tried reading through the whole thread, but started to get a headache. Jesus.
If god wanted the foreskin removed, we wouldn't be born with foreskin.
Don't play god. Leave his creation in tact.
The end.

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