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Mutiny fear in Israeli army as religious Zionists gain influence


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#1 key2thecup

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:23 PM

Mutiny fear in Israeli army as religious Zionists gain influence

Highly religious soldiers could refuse orders to remove Jews from settlements

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Students at work inside the study hall at Har Etzion, as a gun lies on the floor. Photograph: Adam Reynolds



In large study halls, ranks of young Jewish men are bent over religious books or debating in pairs the meaning of their texts. Many wear the large knitted kippa associated with the settler movement; a few have guns by their side.

This scene is typical in settlements all over the West Bank, where the hesder yeshiva movement has gained strength in recent decades. The programme, backed by the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF), allows religious Jews to combine intensive theological study with a shortened period of military service over five years.

For these young religious Zionists, serving in the army to defend the state of Israel and the Jewish presence in the occupied West Bank is a crucial element of a theology that has the redemption of the biblical land of the Jews at its centre.

But some critics fear the influence and advancement of these highly motivated soldiers could turn the traditionally secular IDF into an ideological instrument and create conflicts over whether the men's duty is to obey their rabbi or their commanding officer.

Gabriel Slater, 20, a hesder yeshiva student who will begin army service within weeks, said the programme had helped him to develop strongly held ideological and religious goals. "I have deep beliefs and I'm going to the army to fulfil them," he said. He expected to face dilemmas – "moments of difficulty" – in the military and planned to consult his rabbi if he felt he was being asked to "cross a boundary".

The most apparent points of tension recently have concerned army ceremonies in which women soldiers take part in singing. Some rabbis advised religious soldiers to refuse to attend or to walk out, on the basis that women singing in front of men is forbidden under Jewish law.

But there are bigger questions about whether such soldiers will agree to participate in military operations to evacuate Jews from West Bank settlements, a small number of which have this year been declared illegal by Israel's supreme court. If there is ever a peace deal with the Palestinians requiring a large-scale evacuation of tens of thousands of settlers, the issue could become critical.
According to Gershom Gorenberg, the author of The Unmaking of Israel, this is not a problem of individual conscientious objectors. "There are already whole units that the IDF fears using. As men who believe in the inviolable sanctity of the Whole Land of Israel climb the ladder of command, possibilities loom that are worse than refusal: outright mutiny, even decisions by senior officers to deploy their units to prevent withdrawal," he writes.

Pro-settler religious Zionists are reaching the higher ranks of the military, according to Gorenberg. He cites the army magazine Bamahane, which reported in 2010 that one in eight of company commanders in ground forces came from West Bank settlements; the same year, a majority of top commanders in the elite Golani brigade were religious Zionists. "In the frontline forces and officer class, the role of men whose identity has been shaped in the crucibles of theological nationalism keeps growing," writes Gorenberg.

Daniel Brooks, 23, a student at Har Etzion, a hesder yeshiva just over the pre-1967 border in the southern West Bank, served as a paratrooper for 16 months as part of the programme. "There is an intrinsic value in learning Torah, and going to the army is a way of putting that learning – the value of protecting your people and land – into practice," he said. He served in a unit reserved for religious soldiers.

Har Etzion, which has more than 400 students, about half of whom are in the hesder programme, is relatively liberal on an overwhelmingly conservative spectrum. "We are not in the mainstream of religious Zionism," acknowledged Rabbi Moshe Lichtenstein, one of its leaders.

For example, it does not advise its students to leave if women sing at military ceremonies, and Lichtenstein said it was "destructive to this country" for soldiers to refuse orders. "Everyone has red lines," he said, some moral, some religious. "The military is simply a prism for tensions in society."
At the other end of the spectrum, Har Brakha, a yeshiva based at a radical Jewish settlement in the hills close to the West Bank city of Nablus, was excluded from the IDF-backed hesder programme 18 months ago after its leader, Rabbi Eliezer Melamed, said religious soldiers must disobey military orders if they conflicted with beliefs.

Melamed instructed that it was "forbidden for a Jew to throw another Jew out of his house in the land of Israel", said Yonaton Behar, Har Brakha's spokesman. "It is forbidden to give any part of the land of Israel to any non-Jew, especially our enemies. It is forbidden for any Jewish soldier to obey an order that contradicts the Torah."

Since Har Brakha's expulsion, "we've grown even faster", said Behar. "Israeli youth have a good sense of where the truth is, what the right path is. Many decided to come here to study because of what Rabbi Melamed teaches." Prayers start at 7am, and study continues until 11pm. "The serious guys also go through the night. These boys are very ideological."

The yeshiva has 100-150 students, some of whom are in the army despite Har Brakha's exclusion from the programme, says Behar. "And we have hundreds who continue to do their reserve duty. No one here is against the army. We believe serving in the army is a commandment from the Torah to defend the land."

Creating special units for religious soldiers, which are rarely ordered to participate in controversial frontline operations involving Jewish civilians, is an attempt to minimise conflicts. The army has also sought to avoid confrontations over singing ceremonies, although it said its official policy was that "female soldiers will continue to sing at IDF events [and] official IDF events are compulsory for all soldiers". However, it lets religious soldiers be absent, with permission, from social events.
According to Gorenberg, each minor concession by the army empowers the pro-settlement religious Zionists. "There is a tension here between an ever more stringent insistence on religious authority, and the authority of the military which reflects more liberal values," he said.

"In trying to accommodate and integrate religious soldiers into the army, it's critical that it's clear that there is one authority over the military, that of a democratically elected government working within constitutional constraints and a framework of human rights. That's an absolute foundation of a democratic society, and no one, including a politicised clergy, should be able to overrule that."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/11/mutiny-fear-israeli-army-zionists


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Dr. Ron Paul 2016!

 


#2 Armada

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:27 PM

Religion...
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#3 Buggernut

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:35 PM

Close the border on these settlers and mutineers, and let them deal with the Palestinians on their own.
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#4 Hyzer

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:44 PM

Religion always finds a way to cause more problems than good.

Edited by hyZar, 14 July 2012 - 12:52 PM.

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#5 Sharpshooter

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 12:50 PM

Religion...


Indeed
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#6 Karlsson`s Flo

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 01:02 PM

Religion always finds a way to cause more problems than good.


Right, religion is to blame... Not humanity
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#7 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 01:27 PM

Right, religion is to blame... Not humanity


Atheists need to troll others into arguments by cutting religion down. Dont bite on it. Ignore it.

What I want to know is :

Arent all Jews 'religious' . Arent all Jews living there Zionists ? How are these soldiers somehow different as 'religious Zionists' . As opposed to what?
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#8 Sharpshooter

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 01:40 PM

Atheists need to troll others into arguments by cutting religion down. Dont bite on it. Ignore it.

What I want to know is :

Arent all Jews 'religious' . Arent all Jews living there Zionists ? How are these soldiers somehow different as 'religious Zionists' . As opposed to what?



Not all Zionists are Jews, not all Jews are Zionists, not all Israeli's are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli, not all Zionists are religious.

Religious Zionists assert themselves politically and if this report bears out, they could assert themselves militaristically over the issues surrounding the West Bank and Jerusalem, as well.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 14 July 2012 - 01:45 PM.

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#9 Special Ed

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:28 PM

Here we go again...
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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#10 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 05:32 PM

Atheists need to troll others into arguments by cutting religion down. Dont bite on it. Ignore it.

What I want to know is :

Arent all Jews 'religious' . Arent all Jews living there Zionists ? How are these soldiers somehow different as 'religious Zionists' . As opposed to what?


here you go buddy , The Difference Between Judaism and Zionism Posted Image Attention Translators!
We are looking for volunteers to assist in translating Rabbi Quotes and historical documents from Hebrew/Yiddish to English
The Difference Between Judaism and Zionism
G. Neuburger
Where the Torah tells about the creation of the first human being, the most prominent Jewish commentator, Rashi, explains that the earth from which Adam was formed was not taken from one spot but from various parts of the globe. Thus human dignity does not depend on the place of one's birth nor is it limited to one region.
The greatness or worth of a person is not measured by his or her outward appearance. Jews believe that Adam was created in G-d's image and that he is the common ancestor of all mankind. At this stage in human history, there is no room for privileged people who can do with others as they please. Human life is sacred and human rights are not to be denied by those who would subvert them for "national security" or for any other reason. No one knows this better than the Jews, who have been second-class citizens so often and for so long. Some Zionists, however, may differ. This is understandable because Judaism and Zionism are by no means the same. Indeed they are incompatible and irreconcilable: If one is a good Jew, one cannot be a Zionist; if one is a Zionist, one cannot be a good Jew.
For over 60 years I have fought Zionism, as did my father before me, and I am therefore quite familiar with it. For those who have been in this fight for only the last ten or twenty years, what I have to say may be surprising or even shocking. Nevertheless these matters must be stated clearly and openly, because unless the disease of Zionism is diagnosed accurately, it cannot be cured. Too long have those opposed to Zionism engaged in daydreaming and wishful thinking. In order to recognize Zionism for what it is, one has to know about Judaism, about Zionism -- the opposite and negation of Judaism, and about Jewish history. In the time allotted to me, I am not going to talk about the actions of the Zionists; they will be adequately dealt with by others. As a Jew, I plan to discuss Zionism, which is rebellion against G-d and treason to the Jewish people.
To begin with, a few definitions: Who is a Jew? A Jew is anyone who has a Jewish mother or who converted to Judaism in conformity with Halacha, Jewish religious law. This definition alone excludes racism. Judaism does not seek converts, but those who do convert are accepted on a basis of equality. Let us see how far this goes. Some of the most eminent and respected rabbis were converts to Judaism. Jewish parents throughout the world bless their children every Sabbath and holiday eve, and they have done it in the same way for millennia. If the children are girls, the blessing is, "May G-d let you be like Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah." Not one of these matriarchs was born a Jewess; they were all converts to Judaism. If the children are boys, the blessing is, "May G-d let you be like Ephraim and Menashe." The mother of these two was an Egyptian woman who became Jewish and had married Joseph. Moses himself, the greatest Jew who ever lived, married a Midianite woman who became Jewish. Finally, the Tenach, the holy writings of the Jew, contains the book of Ruth. This woman was not only not Jewish by birth, but she came from the Moabites, traditional enemies of the Jewish people. This book describes Ruth's conversion to Judaism and is read annually on the holiday commemorating the giving of the Torah, the "Law," i.e. the Pentateuch. At its very end, the book of Ruth traces the ancestry of King David, the greatest king the Jews ever had, to Ruth, his great-grandmother.
Apart from the Zionists, the only ones who consistently considered the Jews a race were the Nazis. And they only served to prove the stupidity and irrationality of racism. There was no way to prove racially whether a Mrs. Muller or a Mr. Meyer were Jews or Aryans (the Nazi term for non-Jewish Germans. The only way to decide whether a person was Jewish was to trace the religious affiliation of the parents or grandparents. So much for the this racial nonsense.
Racial pride has been the downfall of those Jews in the past who were blinded by their own narrow-minded chauvinism. This brings us to a second definition. Is there a Jewish people? If so, what is its mission? Let us make this completely clear: The Jewish nation was not born or reconstituted a generation ago by some Zionist politicians. The Jewish nation was born on Mount Sinai when the Jews by their response, "let us do and let us hear," adopted the Torah given to them by G-d for all future generations. `This day you become a people," though valid still today, was spoken thousands of years ago.
According to Jewish tradition, there are seven Noachide laws which apply to all human beings. Then there are the Ten Commandments which form basic standard of morality and conduct for adherents of all monotheistic religions. In addition to these, there are 613 laws obligatory for Jews, and every Jew has to observe those which are applicable to him or her according to Halacha. It is the carrying out of these mitzvoth, "commandments," which constitutes the essence of being Jewish, and therefore of the Jewish people and their covenant with G-d.
In what way are the Jews a "chosen people"? Every Jewish man anywhere and at any time when called to the reading of the Torah says, "Who has chosen us from all the peoples and gave us His Torah." This is the way in which the Jews are chosen. The Jewish people are chosen not for domination over others, not for conquest or warfare, but to serve G-d and thus to serve mankind. "And the hands are the hands of Esau," has been traditionally interpreted to mean that while "the voice is Jacob's," the hands- - symbolizing violence - are Esau's. Thus physical violence is not a tradition or a value of the Jews. The task for which the Jewish people were chosen is not to set an example of military superiority or technical achievements, but to seek perfection in moral behavior and spiritual purity. Of all the crimes of political Zionism, the worst and most basic, and which explains all its other misdeeds, is that from its beginning Zionism has sought to separate the Jewish people from their G-d, to render the divine covenant null and void, and to substitute a "modern" statehood and fraudulent sovereignty for the lofty ideals of the Jewish people.
One means of misleading many Jews and all too many non-Jews is the Zionist misuse of names and symbols sacred in Judaism. They use the holy name Israel for their Zionist state. They have named their land acquisition fund with a term that traditionally implies the reward for piety, good deeds, and charitable work. They have adopted as a state symbol the menorah (candlebrum). What hypocrisy, what perversion it is to have the Israeli army fight under an emblem, the meaning of which is explained in the Tenach (on the occasion of a previous return to the Holy Land) as, "not with armed force and not with power, but in My spirit says the Lord of Hosts."
The infamous founder of political Zionism, may his name be cursed, who only discovered his own Jewishness because of anti-Semitism displayed at the Dreyfus trial in France, proposed various solutions to what he called the "Jewish problem." At one point he proposed to resettle the Jews in Uganda. At another he proposed to convert them to Catholicism. He finally hit on the idea of a Judenstaat, an exclusive Jewish state. Thus from its very beginning Zionism was a result of Anti-Semitism and indeed is completely compatible with it, because Zionists and anti-Semites had (and have) a common goal: To bring all Jews from their places of domicile to the Zionist state, thus uprooting Jewish communities that had existed for hundreds and even thousands of years. Loyalty to the Zionist state was substituted for loyalty to G-d, and the state was made into the modern "golden calf". Belief in the Torah and fulfillment of religious obligations in Zionist eyes became a private matter and not a duty for every Jew or for the Jewish people. The Zionists made divine law subject to party or parliamentary votes, and they set their own standards of conduct and ethics.
Neither the founder of political Zionism nor any of the prime ministers of the Zionist state believed in the divine origin of the Torah nor even in the existence of G-d. All prime ministers were members of a party that opposed religion in principle and that considered the Bible a document of ancient folklore, devoid of any religious meaning. And yet these same Zionists base their claim to the Holy Land on this same Bible, the divine origin of which they deny. At the same time they conveniently forget the Jewish holiday prayer "and for our sins have we been exiled from our land," and ignore the fact that the present exile of the Jewish people is divinely decreed and that the Jewish people are neither commanded nor permitted to conquer or rule the Holy Land before the coming of the Messiah. The Jewish people do, of course, recognize special spiritual ties to that land they call it Eretz Yisrael. Every morning, afternoon, and evening, and night they mention it and Zion and Jerusalem in their prayers, and indeed a Jew does not sit down to a meal without doing likewise. To the Jew, the very soil of the Holy Land is different from that of any other spot on this globe, and wherever he is he turns his face toward Jerusalem during prayers. To live in the Holy Land or even to be buried there was always considered to be of high merit.
This love of the land and the Jewish longing for a return to it and for the coming of the Messiah have been exploited innumerable times during the past 2,000 years. Zionism has had many precursors and each has been a curse for the Jews. Individuals who proclaimed themselves the Messiah and messianic movements have sprung up from time to time, from the Roman era through the Middle Ages and down to the modern Zionists. Many of these pseudo-Messiahs posed as rabbis or as national leaders, though some of them eventually professed other faiths; many temporarily - some for longer periods - succeeded in misleading Jews, rabbis, and entire Jewish communities. All were in due course exposed and recognized as frauds, and those who had set their hope on them found only disappointment and all too often disaster.
In the early stages of the development of modern Zionism, the Mizrachi was founded, an organization of so-called religious Zionists who tried to combine their faith with political Zionism. This led to constant conflict between the dictates of divine law and the demands of Jewish nationalism. Most of the time, the Mizrachi was outvoted at Zionist congresses and served only to give the Zionist movement a false religious aura. Whenever expediency called for it, these "religious" Zionist fellow-travelers have been used by the Zionist government to underpin national claims with "religious" authority. The National Religious Party in the Zionist state has been well rewarded for giving its stamp of approval to nationalistic measures and enactments, whether these rewards were of financial nature or in the form of cabinet or other government posts. The chauvinism of these religious Zionists frequently exceeded that of other Zionists, and it was always couched in religious terms - a prime example of the abuse of religion. The fraudulence of these "religious" Zionists was demonstrated during the past year when it was revealed that two of their world leaders had committed million-dollar thefts.
A Jewish world organization was founded in 1912 on the German-Polish border with the specific purpose of fighting Zionism. This organization, Agudath Israel, "Union of Israel," was to represent the true Jewish people in the world and to unmask the unwarranted and unjust claims of the Zionists. Rabbis everywhere joined Agudath Israel, as did masses of observant Jews. Anti-Zionist congresses were convened in Vienna and in Marienbad. In countries such as Poland, Agudists were members of parliament. Under Agudah leadership more than 50 years ago, Jews in the Holy Land opposed to Zionism obtained permission from Britain, the mandatory power in Palestine, to declare in writing that they did not wish to be represented by the Zionists or any of their groups, particularly not by the Zionist quasi-governmental organizations such as the Va'ad Leumi, "National Council."
Shortly thereafter, Jacob de Haan, a former distinguished Dutch diplomat who was then leader of Agudath Israel in Palestine, initiated talks with Arab leaders with a view toward the eventual establishments of a state there in which Jews and Arabs would have equal rights. In this way he hoped to forestall the creation of a Zionist state. Despite threats to his life, de Haan, fully aware of the ultimate dangers of a Zionist state, continued his talks and negotiations. On the eve of his departure in 1924 for Britain to meet with authorities there, he was assassinated by the Haganah, the Zionist paramilitary force, in the center of Jerusalem as he came from evening prayers. More than a half a century ago, this devout and visionary Jew gave his life in a fight that he considered paramount, at a time when the world at large was still blind and deaf to the difficulties and problems that a future Zionist state would entail.
As a result of such terrorism and increasing Zionist pressure, Agudath Israel gradually began to weaken and to compromise. During the Nazi period, it entered indo deals and arrangements with the Zionists, despite the fact that its fundamental aim had been to combat Zionism. After the Zionist state was established, Agudath Israel broke off with its past, participated in the Zionist government on the cabinet level and elected Agudists to the Zionist parliament. Still professing a nominal anti-Zionism, Agudath Israel established a network of "independent" schools in the Holy Land, but today the overwhelming part of the budget of these schools comes from the Zionist government.
In view of these developments, those Jews who wanted to continue the fight against Zionism without any compromise left Agudath Israel and constituted themselves as the Neturei Karta, an Aramaic phrase meaning "Guardians of the City," i.e. the city of Jerusalem. The Neturei Karta in turn became a worldwide movement, known in some places as "Friends of Jerusalem."
The greatest leader of the Neturei Karta was Rabbi Amram Blau, an inspired and dedicated leader whose compassion equaled his courage. He could not keep silent in the face of injustice, immorality, or hypocrisy. He was beloved by Jews and respected by Christians and Muslims. Born in Jerusalem, he never left the Holy Land during his entire life. In his writings he stressed many times that Jews and Arabs had lived in harmony until the advent of political Zionism. Rabbi Blau was imprisoned in Jerusalem, not by the Ottoman authorities, not by the British, and not by the Arabs, but by the Zionists. What was his crime? He defended with vigor and honesty, without regard for his own safety, the holy character of Jerusalem against the "innovations" and encroachments of the Zionists. He fought for the sanctity of the Sabbath and actively opposed the inroads of indecency and immorality made under the Zionist regime. Unceasingly he denounced the establishment of a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah as an acct of infamy and blasphemy. Under his leadership, the Neturei Karta declared year after year that they did not recognize the legitimacy of the Zionist state or the validity of its laws.
During the first period of fighting between the Zionist state and the Arabs, the rabbis of the Neturei Karta went toward the combat lines, carrying a white flag, and stated that they wanted no part in this war and that they were absolutely opposed to the creation of a Zionist state. In his last proclamation, Rabbi Blau deplored the actions of the Zionists against the Muslim and Christian Palestinians and the grievous harm done by the Zionists to the Jewish people in endeavoring to change them from "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" to a modern state, devoid of spiritual foundation, based on chauvinism, built on conquest, and relying on military prowess. "The number of your cities constitute your gods," the prophet Jeremiah had thundered to the chauvinist and idolatrous Jewish government of this day. Like it, the Zionists are now establishing a new status quo and expanding their position by founding new settlements in he territories occupied since 1967.
Rabbi Blau in his last statement severely condemned the UN for recognizing and accepting as a member the Zionist state, thus giving the Zionists unprecedented prestige and power. It is high time that the anti-Zionist nations listen to him, heed his plea, and undo this great wrong and correct this fatal error. It is well known that no action was taken concerning the expulsion of the Zionist state because of the fear that financial support for the UN would be withdrawn. Let those states, opposed to Zionism, who have become affluent during the past generation, show that they mean what they say by offering to replace any financial loss the UN may suffer as a consequence, and let the member states vote their conscience without fear and regardless of any intimidation.
There has been times before in Jewish history, as related in the Bible, when the masses were misled and only a minority of Jews clung to the true mission of the Jewish people. One of the first such of the occasions was the worship of the golden calf; today we unfortunately see a repetition of this, with the Zionist state now being the object of worship. Until the appearance and growing influence of political Zionism, Jewish leaders were chosen on the basis of their piety, decency, learning, and their love of justice and mercy. Today only too often so-called Jewish leaders, completely unqualified under Jewish law and traditional concepts, make pronouncements and decisions in the name and on behalf of the Jewish people. This is particularly true in the USA where there is the largest Jewish community in our time. I can never forget the remark of a woman in Oklahoma: "Isn't today's Judaism wonderful! All you have to do is give money."
Even at his death Rabbi Blau refuted the Zionists who had often claimed that the Neturei Karta was nothing but an insignificant sect of a few hundred souls. Yet when Rabbi Blau died in Jerusalem on a Friday morning two years ago, a few hours later no fewer than 22,000 men attended his funeral.
At all times in the past, the misleaders of the Jews have sooner or later fallen by the wayside, and only those who upheld the validity of the Torah and the Talmud (the written and oral law) and of Halachah, and who resisted the demagogues, prevailed. The Neturei Karta follow in this tradition. They continue as a living rebuke to Zionism and speak in our time for the true Jewish people, those who have not been misled by Zionism.
During the Roman conquest of the Holy Land, there were Jews who on the basis of nationalism and racial pride were sure that they could not lose a war. They, like the Zionists of our day, were opposed to any compromise or settlement; there were determined to fight to the end. At that time, however almost 2,000 years ago, the fore most rabbi, Rabbi Yochanan ben Sakkai, chose a different way. The military adventurers prevented him from leaving beleaguered Jerusalem to negotiate with the Romans, so the rabbi had himself carried out in a coffin by his disciples to the Roman headquarters. He said to the Romans that the Jews need neither an army nor weapons and asked for permission to establish a yeshiva, a Jewish religious school, at Yavneh. It was this religious school, and not the militarists or generals of the time, that helped to perpetuate Judaism and the identity of the Jewish people.
It must be stated explicitly that while not all Jews are Zionists, not all Zionists are Jews. The motives of some of these non-Jewish Zionists, e.g. Lord Balfour and General Smuts, are at least open to question. From the beginning of the Zionist movement, some of the most articulate and fervent Zionists have been Christian clergymen, especially "fundamentalists," who hail Zionism as an important "religious" movement and welcome it as a fulfillment of prophecy. They also, and significantly, serve the cause of Zionism.
One of the basic aims of Zionism is aliyah, the immigration to the Zionist state of Jews from all countries. Nevertheless, during the past few years hundreds of thousands of Israelis have outgathered themselves from the Zionist paradise, and American Jews have "voted with their feet" and have chosen not to be ingathered. These Jews recognize that the Zionist state is in fact nothing but a giant ghetto.
Instead of being able to render assistance to Jewish communities in other countries, American Jews have been mobilized to concentrate on helping the Zionist state, making the USA the real and major source of Zionist power and influence. The Zionists, true to the nature of their movement, rely on technical superiority and on a forbidding military deterrent - provided largely by the USA - for their security.
Nothing could be farther from the true ideals of the Jewish people. The Jewish people were chosen in the first place "for you are the leas of all nations." As the Psalm says, "they rely on vehicles and horsepower, but we invoke the name of the Eternal, our G-d."
One most vital point deserves mention. A former president of the World Zionist Organization has stated explicitly that a Zionist owes unqualified loyalty to the Zionist state and that, in the case of a conflict, the first loyalty of a Zionist must be to the Zionist state. According to Jewish law, however, a Jew owes allegiance and loyalty to the country of which he is a citizen, and, of course, no faithful Jews owes any loyalty or allegiance to the Zionist state which has been condemned by the foremost rabbis of our age.
It is not my purpose to detail how Zionism should be dealt with. Let me state, however, that isolated or spontaneous acts against individuals or the mere adoption of resolutions in the UN or elsewhere are not effective means of bringing an end to Zionism. Let me state also that the battle against Zionism must be waged first, not on the shores of the Mediterranean, but in Zionism's most powerful bastion -- the USA>
As an American citizen, I deplore that our government and our politicians have adopted an attitude that is in complete contradiction to the advice of the father of our country George Washington. Instead of shying away from foreign entanglements and permanent alliances with foreign powers, the establishment in Washington has embraced Zionism so wholeheartedly that in the eyes any criticism of the Zionist state and any opposition to political Zionism in the UN by any nation has become a punishable offense. And the docile American media do not dare to speak out against such an absurdity.
Unfortunately, thus far, each year sees still further gains in influence by American Zionists. This fact has made possible events and developments that were unthinkable even ten years ago. It takes a lot of courage to be opposed to Zionism in the USA today. It also took a lot of courage during the Second World War to be anti-Fascist in Italy or anti-Nazi in Germany. In the long run Zionism is nothing but a passing aberration in the long history of the Jewish people and of the world.
Let us take faith and hope in the certainty that eventually prejudice, hatred, and injustice will disappear, and that the prophecy will come true that all nations of the world will participate in the pilgrimage to Jerusalem "for My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations."

JEWS NOT ZIONISTS



This information is from the jews not zionists .org website .
and the same drivel you post about athiest trolling in most of your posts relating to religious subjects just because some people have different views and beliefs to yours, illuminates your ignorance .

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 14 July 2012 - 05:34 PM.

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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

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That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#11 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

Not all Zionists are Jews, not all Jews are Zionists, not all Israeli's are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli, not all Zionists are religious.

Religious Zionists assert themselves politically and if this report bears out, they could assert themselves militaristically over the issues surrounding the West Bank and Jerusalem, as well.


That makes sense. I have no idea how this helps anyone by taking an extreme view , so hopefully they wont take over. They should leave religion and state separate.
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#12 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:32 PM

here you go buddy , The Difference Between Judaism and Zionism


This information is from the jews not zionists .org website .
and the same drivel you post about athiest trolling in most of your posts relating to religious subjects just because some people have different views and beliefs to yours, illuminates your ignorance .


Arent you just a ray of sunshine. :rolleyes:


Another guy proving my point. All you just did is hammer a SUPER NEGATIVE. Same as you guys always do. Always been my post with you guys. Always will be.

You are NEGATIVE .
. I already stated that I was referring to the Jews in Israel specifically. Not Judaism around the globe or a traditional sense. I already know the rise of Zionism. I also specifically stated what the difference in a sense of Jews being 'religious' as opposed to what ? Atheist Jews?

However, you were so busy on your negative rant, you forgot to consider that. Its not my job to have to break it down for you into little blocks so you get it.
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#13 Heretic

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:36 PM

Religion always finds a way to cause more problems than good.


People always find a way to cause more problems than good.
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#14 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 06:40 PM

in my opinion Religion is dogma. Culture. Tradition. I don't consider myself to be Religious.

People cause problems because they are imperfect I wish others would understand this instead of pointing the finger at others in a negative way.

We should try to remain positive. :towel:
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#15 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:04 PM

*
POPULAR

Arent you just a ray of sunshine. :rolleyes:


Another guy proving my point. All you just did is hammer a SUPER NEGATIVE. Same as you guys always do. Always been my post with you guys. Always will be.

You are NEGATIVE .
. I already stated that I was referring to the Jews in Israel specifically. Not Judaism around the globe or a traditional sense. I already know the rise of Zionism. I also specifically stated what the difference in a sense of Jews being 'religious' as opposed to what ? Atheist Jews?

However, you were so busy on your negative rant, you forgot to consider that. Its not my job to have to break it down for you into little blocks so you get it.


are you for real , i presented some information on a subject you seemed to to need some clarification on and you accuse me of being negative ?
as some else once said on these boards it is impossible to have a rational conversation with some religious people on this forum so i will leave you with some words from mike
I've no consideration,
Zero mutual respect
For billions who suffer from
Rational thought neglect
I don't wanna waste a sentence,
I don't want a convert-sation
That's gonna end in disdain,
Disbelief and aggravation

And I find it's getting harder to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
In Santa Claus and Noah's Ark
And that their god is the best
My distaste has turned into detest

Who would read a 2000
Year old medical journal
Techniques for bloodletting,
Advice on Trichinosis
Would you navigate the globe
With a map of a flat earth
Without DNA testing,
Would you believe virgin birth

And I find it's getting painful to put up
With grown adults who actually believe
In Unicorns and Creation,
And God always takes their side
That's when my innocent jabbing turns snide

Thank God for the Grammy,
Thank God for the touchdown
Thank God for blowing up
The enemy's sacred ground

So how am I supposed to take
Anything you say seriously?
When you've swapped free will for faith,
How and pre-destiny

And it's getting agonizing to hang out
With grown adults who actually believe
Mythology and history
Trump physics and science
My aversion has turned to abhorrence
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#16 dank.

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:16 PM

People always find a way to cause more problems than good.


Zionists base their entire oppression and takeover of Palestine on the "fact" that the land is holy and belongs to them as stated in scripture. How you somehow manage to dissociate religion from that fact is the most mind boggling thing I've ever heard.
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#17 Heretic

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:22 PM

Zionists base their entire oppression and takeover of Palestine on the "fact" that the land is holy and belongs to them as stated in scripture. How you somehow manage to dissociate religion from that fact is the most mind boggling thing I've ever heard.


What's mind boggling is how time and time again people lump all religion based on a single story or group.

Stereotype much?
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#18 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 07:27 PM

What's mind boggling is how time and time again people lump all religion based on a single story or group.

Stereotype much?


" I understand that religion breeds stereotype , but's whats the explanation for the malice , for the spite " . mike
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The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#19 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:04 PM

Zionists base their entire oppression and takeover of Palestine on the "fact" that the land is holy and belongs to them as stated in scripture. How you somehow manage to dissociate religion from that fact is the most mind boggling thing I've ever heard.



The bias is your choice . You can choose to see it from this point of view . Its your choice.

Its the negativity and finger pointing at the other group tha its really unattractive. Again, atheists need to put others down. They cant go about their day any other way. Its proven time after time.

You cant do anything about the situation in Israel and RANTING about it here doesn't solve anything.
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#20 EmployeeoftheMonth

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:07 PM

The bias is your choice . You can choose to see it from this point of view . Its your choice.

Its the negativity and finger pointing at the other group tha its really unattractive. Again, atheists need to put others down. They cant go about their day any other way. Its proven time after time.

You cant do anything about the situation in Israel and RANTING about it here doesn't solve anything.


You don't see a problem with putting down an entire group of people at all?
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#21 Sharpshooter

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:08 PM

Zionists base their entire oppression and takeover of Palestine on the "fact" that the land is holy and belongs to them as stated in scripture. How you somehow manage to dissociate religion from that fact is the most mind boggling thing I've ever heard.


Well said.

'Holy' Land for the 'Chosen' People.

:rolleyes:
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#22 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:17 PM

Well said.

'Holy' Land for the 'Chosen' People.

:rolleyes:


This comment is also troll based to illicit a reply. Have you ever considered becoming positive about something -rather than just be negative about most everything?

I hope you do one day. You seemed intelligent but in my opinion, emotionally bent right out of shape.

Nice to have met you . Good luck. You gotta go on ignore now.
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#23 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:20 PM

This comment is also troll based to illicit a reply. Have you ever considered becoming positive about something -rather than just be negative about most everything?

I hope you do one day. You seemed intelligent but in my opinion, emotionally bent right out of shape.

Nice to have met you . Good luck. You gotta go on ignore now.


And you responded so what does that make you?

Should have changed up your schtick, Tom, your prior history via several other accounts gives you away every time.


LP back on topic.......


Well said.

'Holy' Land for the 'Chosen' People.

:rolleyes:


Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 14 July 2012 - 08:23 PM.

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Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#24 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:25 PM

And you responded so what does that make you?

Should have changed up your schtick, Tom, your prior history with several other accounts gives you away every time.


LP back on topic.......


. Do you guys move around in packs or something?

Have you ever considered actually being positive for a change?

Try it. :)
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#25 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:29 PM

. Do you guys move around in packs or something?

Have you ever considered actually being positive for a change?

Try it. :)


We meet at Timmy's, chug an ice cap or two, plan our day to out stupidity and ignorance wherever we find it, then fire up our laptops. Yeah, we travel 'in packs', Tom. <_<

:rolleyes:

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 14 July 2012 - 08:29 PM.

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#26 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:30 PM

We meet at Timmy's, chug an ice cap or two, plan our day to out stupidity and ignorance wherever we find it, then fire up our laptops. Yeah, we travel 'in packs'. <_<

:rolleyes:


Lol. Ok. You said it not me.
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#27 Sharpshooter

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:30 PM

This comment is also troll based to illicit a reply. Have you ever considered becoming positive about something -rather than just be negative about most everything?

I hope you do one day. You seemed intelligent but in my opinion, emotionally bent right out of shape.

Nice to have met you . Good luck. You gotta go on ignore now.



I'm positive that having multiple accounts, or a new account while banned is a no-no.

Nice to have met you too. Good luck to yourself as well. You gotta go bye-bye now.
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#28 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:34 PM

Lol. Ok. You said it not me.


Sarcasm must travel at high altitude over your head, Tom.
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Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#29 Drybone

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:37 PM

Ok enough personal attacks guys. Lets get back to the subject at hand. Im just reporting anything further to the mods let them sort it out. There is no value in the childish attacks.

i think that the 'Zionists' have a claim to the land just like the Palestinians do. I believe different media will yield different stories and we simply pick out the ones we want to believe.

From the Palestinians point of view, I guess they are 'Zionist Religious fanatics' of some kind. I certainly do not mind debating the merits but am not interested in all the finger pointing and childish name calling.
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#30 JoeyJoeJoeJr. Shabadoo

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 08:38 PM

And you responded so what does that make you?

Should have changed up your schtick, Tom, your prior history via several other accounts gives you away every time.


LP back on topic.......


What's funny is I figured this guy has either been around for awhile or changed his name so I checked his display name history literally a minute before I read this post. Who is this guy?
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