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Mutiny fear in Israeli army as religious Zionists gain influence


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#61 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:30 AM

Posted ImageDrybone, on 15 July 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

Its just you. Riddled with personal insults to boot. What is wrong with you people ? Do you always have to cut people down . Do you even read the rules?

This is a blatant personal attack.

Explain it to the mods


Posted Image

Edited by The Ratiocinator, 15 July 2012 - 12:31 AM.

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#62 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:35 AM

Best PM i ever received:

I had to report you to the moderators. Dont tell me I didnt try my hardest with you.

I dont know what your story is but you seem intelligent . However, intelligent people arent bitter nor do they need to wield childish insults.

and the bottom line is I dont like you very much so that about sums it up.



:lol:

Awesome.

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#63 Red Light Racicot

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:00 AM

Good point. I believe this very thing. All we can do is try to stay positive .


I mean seriously... go watch some Barney or Sesame Street or something.

#64 Heretic

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:07 AM

You have no idea what you're talking about. Still prepared? They've already done it, not entirely but the majority, and they're slowly stealing more land every day.

Your argument for wanting to know the current governments point of view makes zero sense. That's like asking a Christian if their view on Jesus' resurrection has changed, because well you know, it's been like 2000 years man. The current PM is a Zion, his father was one as well, as was his father. Ben-Gurion's description of the matter is the same it has been and the same it always will be.

Zionism is based on the religious belief that the Land of Israel (Eretz Yisrael) belongs to them because it says so in scripture. Based on those scriptures, this is the map that results.

Posted Image

This is almost the entirety of Palestine and even extends to some neighbouring countries. They want it all. And my "objective" source is the Bible. Which I believe is the exact opposite of objective, but try telling that to them, or even you from the sounds of things.


Yes, that is true - but what do the Palestines want? They want it all as well - that's why there's no peace - no one want to share....

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#65 Heretic

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:08 AM

I mean seriously... go watch some Barney or Sesame Street or something.



[sarcasm]
Or we can make helpful posts like this?
[/sarcasm]

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#66 Drybone

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:11 AM

I am reporting personal attacks to the mods from now on. I am not going to give into hate nor derail myself from the topic at hand to bother . You guys can deal with them.

Lets have an adult conversation. Free of hyper bias. Willingness to see fact over pre determined ideolgoy. Willingness to see both sides of the issue before making any determination at all.

Can we do this without the ranting and name calling? Arent we all adults here? It makes for a way better conversation. There are board rules regarding personal attacks for a reason. Trolling and derailing threads. Stop the personal smears.

I say lets remain the positive and have a great debate.

Here is an article written by a Jew who is not a Zionist. He claims quite clearly Zionism is dangerous, ignorant and self defeating. He believes Jews are not a race unto themselves.

http://www.jewsnotzi...ncejudzion.html

i was always under the impression Zionists were nationalists, but not if taken to an extreme. Almost like a manifest destiny of some kind that is not fair to the Palestinians. On the surface of it, its offensive as bible thumpers crusading through your town to convert one and all.

This simply leads me to assert that its so profane it might be biased to an extreme simply to create angst against them in the first place. In other words its far easier to hate the Catholic Church if priests are molesting as opposed to hating them because the Church helps the poor and needy.

So it could simply be 'negative attacks' used by pro Palestinians to pick out the bad apples of the Jews, label them hard core Zionists who want to wipe the Palestinians out and try to paint everyone in Israel with that broad brush. The temptation is certainly there.


I found this article about the plight of the Palestinians :

http://en.wikipedia....lestinian_state

This article sheds lights on the plight of both the Jews and Palestinians that has raged on since the artificial creation of Israel in 1947. Its a never ending situation in my opinion.

Here is a pro Israel anti Palestinian point of view:

http://www.israelnat...icle.aspx/11869

And predictably, what we see here is the cry that if they created the Palestinian state , they would try to take over all of Israel and destroy them .This is virtually the same finger pointing the Palestinians claim.

A commonly blasted talking point from many in the region and is a center piece of foreign policy by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad So what we have is now each side using ultra polarized viewpoints as in to suggest in the end nobody is right or wrong.

But that does not solve the issue. The issue is that Israel is there and its almost 70 years later. They have the right to be there now. So they are going to have to put down these issues and learn to get along. Otherwise we can expect more finger pointing, name calling and biased rhetoric that people are more than willing to accept on both sides.

Edited by Drybone, 15 July 2012 - 07:13 AM.

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#67 Drybone

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:18 AM

[sarcasm]
Or we can make helpful posts like this?
[/sarcasm]


Good morning. You are up early.

I think at this point there is no real 'want' from either side. You have to distinct factions living within a tiny confined space and the multi cultural approach has not worked for 70 years. I think there is no ideological solution but from a pragmatists point of view, we can hope to bring them both to the table and sign another peace accord.

In my opinion, its a very old problem that has no easy solution where both sides win.
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#68 Bertuzzi Babe

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:59 AM

Best PM i ever received:




:lol:

Awesome.


You got some of those too, did you? You should see mine! All 8 of them. :lol:


I have never had a previous username here. I have never been here before.

Its called being smeared. They accuse all kinds of people of being re incarnated as others. They even have a THREAD about guys who used to be banned and are now back on here in various forms.

lol .

The truth is , they are all pissed off because I keep trying to remain positive and wont give into their negative rants.

So in frustration , they are trying this last trump card , trying to pin someone elses crap on me. And in fact, she was trying to goad me into a fight so I put her on ignore.

Ever had someone come and SMEAR YOU before ? Make up crap behind your back?

According to the rules, she isnt even supposed to do this anyways. She is supposed to simply report it to the moderators. Not go out and HARASS the member.

But since she is drunk or whatever her problem is, I reported her to the moderators os Im sure we will get it sorted out . .


You bitch and whine about some mythical 'smear' campaign yet come back in here, AFTER you deleted all the PMs you wrote in which you were doing exactly that to me .....to post personal comments about me out here, in the public area of the board. (Well, you 'think' you deleted them.....but no cee-gar). And then whine about the factual assertions that you are indeed someone who has been here several times before. Hypocrite.

"They" have a thread about guys who used to be banned but are back? Too bad you didn't read the thread title or the content of the thread......which is, you know, "Who would/should users unban if they could?" Reading comprehension, Tom, reading comprehension. And also, perhaps you should look at who's responsible for that thread.....t'aint' nobody who is participating in this thread.


We all know who you are. Thank you, EOTM, one of those usernames hadn't popped to mind quite as quickly as some of the others........what's that saying? Oh yeah, you can fool some of the people some of the time etc., etc.

You have some serious issues, dude. You should probably get some help with them. Now someone quick come quote this so he'll have to see it anyway regardless of whether some of us have been placed on Tom's dreaded 'ignore' list or not.

As I told you last night, Tom Davie et al, the supermod and now, Admin, have come and gone.

Edited by Bertuzzi Babe, 15 July 2012 - 10:08 AM.

"Sursumredditio" non usquam in hac mea loquantur!



Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem.....



#69 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:56 AM

You got some of those too, did you? You should see mine! All 8 of them. :lol:


I was fortunate at least, I only got the one piece of batcrap correspondence. :towel:

8?? It's like you won the idiot savante lottery and all 'the crazy' came your way.

You're so lucky, :P


On topic.....I don't know what's left to be discussed here. There are radical religious nuts in almost every standing army in the world. Israel is just another one of them. This isn't really news I suppose, but maybe more of a spotlight, with some possible dire ramifications for a region where paranoia and heated rhetoric are common-place.

Anyways, not sure of how much more juice we can get from this rind.

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#70 Special Ed

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:14 AM

Anyways, not sure of how much more juice we can get from this rind.


I'm sure there will crates of juice still to be had from other rinds. Specially from the Israeli/Palestine/Muslim/Zionist topics, as clearly demonstrated already by the CDC polical debate team.

Edited by Special Ed, 15 July 2012 - 10:20 AM.

If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#71 Heretic

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:21 AM

Best PM i ever received:




:lol:

Awesome.


That was a PM that you made public - wow...

Back on topic...

Why can't we just be nice to each other? Posted Image


What's wrong with this conflict (and the world) is relationships.

That is, people are having trouble with relationships - we are built for relationships - it's in our nature.
7 billion people on this planet - we need to get along with each other.
We need to drop the prejudice and hurtful attitudes towards each other.
We are all the same.
We are human beings.

Edited by Heretic, 15 July 2012 - 10:32 AM.

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#72 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:50 AM

That was a PM that you made public - wow...

Back on topic...



What's wrong with this conflict (and the world) is relationships.

That is, people are having trouble with relationships - we are built for relationships - it's in our nature.
7 billion people on this planet - we need to get along with each other.
We need to drop the prejudice and hurtful attitudes towards each other.
We are all the same.
We are human beings.



Yep....it was made public. Anyone that messages me their batcrap better expect it to be shared with the rest of the class.

And I disagree....what's wrong with this P/I conflict, this region, the world is religion. Religion poisons everything...including relationships.

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#73 Drybone

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:30 AM

I'm sure there will crates of juice still to be had from other rinds. Specially from the Israeli/Palestine/Muslim/Zionist topics, as clearly demonstrated already by the CDC polical debate team.


I disagree. It gets old really quickly. Why? I dont need to work out my personal issues through fighting with others. So to me its about the facts.

And the facts are old weathered RHETORIC on both sides that hasn't changed much in 70 years and isn't likely to change now.

While its ok to discuss once or twice, harping on it accomplishes nothing.

My hope is they find a solution one day. I guarantee you it aint coming from the Canucks board.
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#74 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:44 AM

I disagree. It gets old really quickly. Why? I dont need to work out my personal issues through fighting with others. So to me its about the facts.

And the facts are old weathered RHETORIC on both sides that hasn't changed much in 70 years and isn't likely to change now.

While its ok to discuss once or twice, harping on it accomplishes nothing.

My hope is they find a solution one day. I guarantee you it aint coming from the Canucks board.



So you're against facts being expressed or written effectively or persuasively? :huh:

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#75 taxi

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:47 PM

Lol at this topic. Do you guys really think you can generalize an entire people like this. Jewish Israelis have moved to Israel for many reasons, including:

1) To escape persecution in nearby arab countries after the breakup of the Ottoman empire.

2) To attain self-determination. Being a minority sucks.

3) Religion.

4) Some simply had nowhere to go following WWII.

5) To connect and strengthen their Jewish roots and tradition.

6) Economic reasons.

7) To avoid assimilation.

When zionism began to gain momentum again in the 1800s, these European zionists were mostly non-religious Jews who founded the movement as a reaction to growing anti-semitism. Many of the early zionists were socialist revolutionaries who rejected religion. The idea that you can characterise all Jewish Israelis as religious nuts is ridiculous.

#76 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:56 PM

Lol at this topic. Do you guys really think you can generalize an entire people like this. Jewish Israelis have moved to Israel for many reasons, including:

1) To escape persecution in nearby arab countries after the breakup of the Ottoman empire.

2) To attain self-determination. Being a minority sucks.

3) Religion.

4) Some simply had nowhere to go following WWII.

5) To connect and strengthen their Jewish roots and tradition.

6) Economic reasons.

7) To avoid assimilation.

When zionism began to gain momentum again in the 1800s, these European zionists were mostly non-religious Jews who founded the movement as a reaction to growing anti-semitism. Many of the early zionists were socialist revolutionaries who rejected religion. The idea that you can characterise all Jewish Israelis as religious nuts is ridiculous.



Who are "you guys"?

Who is generalizing an entire people?

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"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#77 Drybone

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:06 PM

Lol at this topic. Do you guys really think you can generalize an entire people like this. Jewish Israelis have moved to Israel for many reasons, including:

1) To escape persecution in nearby arab countries after the breakup of the Ottoman empire.

2) To attain self-determination. Being a minority sucks.

3) Religion.

4) Some simply had nowhere to go following WWII.

5) To connect and strengthen their Jewish roots and tradition.

6) Economic reasons.

7) To avoid assimilation.

When zionism began to gain momentum again in the 1800s, these European zionists were mostly non-religious Jews who founded the movement as a reaction to growing anti-semitism. Many of the early zionists were socialist revolutionaries who rejected religion. The idea that you can characterise all Jewish Israelis as religious nuts is ridiculous.


Thanks for this.
I dont believe we can take extreme doctrine from the late 1800s and use it to pigeonhole every Jewish or Zionist person now. That is a form of propaganda


. The problem is that many of us are hockey fans. We are not Jewish and live in North America. We have lives and are not going to spend time 'googling' every single detail on every issue just to make it artificially look like we know everything about everything.

We ordinary people are those who come to the thread and feel entitled to state their opinion regardless of how much they know or don't know about it. .....


We can all run off and do research to come back and make it seem like we knew it all along.a few feel the need to do so. Few feel the need to do that.

The rest of us simply come across the thread and are curious.

We appreciate the information. :)
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#78 Jägermeister

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:29 PM

Lol at this topic. Do you guys really think you can generalize an entire people like this. Jewish Israelis have moved to Israel for many reasons, including:

1) To escape persecution in nearby arab countries after the breakup of the Ottoman empire.

2) To attain self-determination. Being a minority sucks.

3) Religion.

4) Some simply had nowhere to go following WWII.

5) To connect and strengthen their Jewish roots and tradition.

6) Economic reasons.

7) To avoid assimilation.

When zionism began to gain momentum again in the 1800s, these European zionists were mostly non-religious Jews who founded the movement as a reaction to growing anti-semitism. Many of the early zionists were socialist revolutionaries who rejected religion. The idea that you can characterise all Jewish Israelis as religious nuts is ridiculous.


I didn't see any of that happening.
The argument (at least the argument that was related to the topic at hand) was centred around Zionists, not all Jewish Israelis.
I never saw a post that generalized all the Israeli people.

However I agree with you, a lot of people do make that generalization when on this topic.

Edited by Jagermeister, 15 July 2012 - 03:31 PM.

Jagermeister.jpg


#79 Buddhas Hand

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 04:25 PM

I am reporting personal attacks to the mods from now on. I am not going to give into hate nor derail myself from the topic at hand to bother . You guys can deal with them.

Lets have an adult conversation. Free of hyper bias. Willingness to see fact over pre determined ideolgoy. Willingness to see both sides of the issue before making any determination at all.

Can we do this without the ranting and name calling? Arent we all adults here? It makes for a way better conversation. There are board rules regarding personal attacks for a reason. Trolling and derailing threads. Stop the personal smears.

I say lets remain the positive and have a great debate.

Here is an article written by a Jew who is not a Zionist. He claims quite clearly Zionism is dangerous, ignorant and self defeating. He believes Jews are not a race unto themselves.

http://www.jewsnotzi...ncejudzion.html

i was always under the impression Zionists were nationalists, but not if taken to an extreme. Almost like a manifest destiny of some kind that is not fair to the Palestinians. On the surface of it, its offensive as bible thumpers crusading through your town to convert one and all.

This simply leads me to assert that its so profane it might be biased to an extreme simply to create angst against them in the first place. In other words its far easier to hate the Catholic Church if priests are molesting as opposed to hating them because the Church helps the poor and needy.

So it could simply be 'negative attacks' used by pro Palestinians to pick out the bad apples of the Jews, label them hard core Zionists who want to wipe the Palestinians out and try to paint everyone in Israel with that broad brush. The temptation is certainly there.


I found this article about the plight of the Palestinians :

http://en.wikipedia....lestinian_state

This article sheds lights on the plight of both the Jews and Palestinians that has raged on since the artificial creation of Israel in 1947. Its a never ending situation in my opinion.

Here is a pro Israel anti Palestinian point of view:

http://www.israelnat...icle.aspx/11869

And predictably, what we see here is the cry that if they created the Palestinian state , they would try to take over all of Israel and destroy them .This is virtually the same finger pointing the Palestinians claim.

A commonly blasted talking point from many in the region and is a center piece of foreign policy by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad So what we have is now each side using ultra polarized viewpoints as in to suggest in the end nobody is right or wrong.

But that does not solve the issue. The issue is that Israel is there and its almost 70 years later. They have the right to be there now. So they are going to have to put down these issues and learn to get along. Otherwise we can expect more finger pointing, name calling and biased rhetoric that people are more than willing to accept on both sides.



The Real war is not between the east and the west. The real war is between intelligent and stupid people.

Marjane Satrapi

tony-abbott-and-stephen-harper-custom-da

That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons that history has to teach.

Aldous Huxley.


#80 dank.

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 06:52 PM

Yes, that is true - but what do the Palestines want? They want it all as well - that's why there's no peace - no one want to share....


Ya because it's their damn home that they've lived for centuries, of course they want their country back. How would you feel if you were them? Having a foreign people, under the will of Zionists, force-ably take away their land claiming its theirs because the bible said so. It's pure quackery.

Posted Image


#81 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:12 PM

Hitch on Palestine, Israel and Zionism.







I miss him.

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#82 Heretic

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:30 PM

Who are "you guys"?

Who is generalizing an entire people?


Those blaming it just on religion for starters. ;)

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#83 Heretic

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:31 PM

Ya because it's their damn home that they've lived for centuries, of course they want their country back. How would you feel if you were them? Having a foreign people, under the will of Zionists, force-ably take away their land claiming its theirs because the bible said so. It's pure quackery.


No - they want all of Israel as well - they want the Israelite people out of the middle east...

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#84 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:36 PM

Those blaming it just on religion for starters. ;)


Who said that all Israeli Zionists were religious? :huh:

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#85 taxi

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:38 PM

Hitch on Palestine, Israel and Zionism.


I miss him.


His views are a lot more complex than that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5GWpyFDTmk

#86 Heretic

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:40 PM

Who said that all Israeli Zionists were religious? :huh:


Who blames everything on religion?

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#87 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:43 PM

Who blames everything on religion?


So you're going to dodge the question and pivot into something else, yes?

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#88 Sharpshooter

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:50 PM

His views are a lot more complex than that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5GWpyFDTmk


Not sure what 'complexity' of his you were trying to show, in regards to his views on Israeli Zionism, with that particular clip, since he didn't address Zionism at all.
.
He did however, reiterate his views against the Israeli occupation of Palestine and for a 2 state solution, as he's always said.

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#89 Heretic

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 07:57 PM

So you're going to dodge the question and pivot into something else, yes?


You dodged first!

No wait - he did!

You did!

Seriously? You had a question?


Did someone say that all Israeli Zionists were religious? No Idea. It had nothing to do with my question.

You said this to Taxi:

Who are "you guys"?

Who is generalizing an entire people?


And I said:

"Those blaming it just on religion for starters. ;) "





Edit: And you also said this:

Yep....it was made public. Anyone that messages me their batcrap better expect it to be shared with the rest of the class.

And I disagree....what's wrong with this P/I conflict, this region, the world is religion. Religion poisons everything...including relationships.


Seem pretty generalizing to me.


Edited by Heretic, 15 July 2012 - 08:00 PM.

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

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#90 Primal Optimist

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:02 PM

. Do you guys move around in packs or something?

Have you ever considered actually being positive for a change?

Try it. :)

Hey there, Primal Optimist here, I am Positive its time for a change. I just wanted to say as a third party, after reading just page one here...your kind of coming off as exactly what you are incorrectly accusing others of being. Just sayin, read or read not, respond you may, or go on your way, but repeatedly calling out people as trolls, or worse in a thread you don't have to be in if you choose not to be in it doesn't add to the constructive discourse.

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