Jump to content

Welcome to canucks.com Vancouver Canucks homepage

Photo

Mutiny fear in Israeli army as religious Zionists gain influence


  • Please log in to reply
213 replies to this topic

#91 Primal Optimist

Primal Optimist

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,920 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 03

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:12 PM

.what's wrong with the world is religion. Religion poisons everything..

I concur. I do wonder though what the underlying issue is in humanity that drives us to religion...i mean aside from the 12-21 years of indoctrination from the age of FETUS to adulthood. I guess that goes a long way to drive home the messaging, but I wonder if there is some physiological requirement to buy into some mass delusion? I am still thinking my way around that concept, but I know three things: God, Allah, Zues and all the rest do not exist. ALiens, if they do exist do not come to earth to probe our poor trailer dwellers orifaces, and lastly, i know that the fun of it is that there is no proof either way, these things will be argued over forever, as they are the ultimate Schroedingers Cat. God is both dead and alive because he refuses to come out of the box.
  • 0


CDC GM League Posted Image General Manager

Happy Hockey Fan!!!


#92 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:14 PM

You dodged first!

No wait - he did!

You did!

Seriously? You had a question?


Did someone say that all Israeli Zionists were religious? No Idea. It had nothing to do with my question.

You said this to Taxi:


And I said:

"Those blaming it just on religion for starters. ;) "


Edit: And you also said this:


Seem pretty generalizing to me.


Actually, you took that quote of mine out of context, in relation to the subject matter that I was asking 'Taxi' about.......go figure.

As it relates to the topic of Zionists, I actually said:

Not all Zionists are Jews, not all Jews are Zionists, not all Israeli's are Jews, not all Jews are Israeli, not all Zionists are religious.

Religious Zionists assert themselves politically and if this report bears out, they could assert themselves militaristically over the issues surrounding the West Bank and Jerusalem, as well.


Doesn't seem like I was generalizing about Zionists, Israelis, or Jews, actually.
  • 0

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#93 Heretic

Heretic

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,695 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 07

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:21 PM

I concur. I do wonder though what the underlying issue is in humanity that drives us to religion...i mean aside from the 12-21 years of indoctrination from the age of FETUS to adulthood. I guess that goes a long way to drive home the messaging, but I wonder if there is some physiological requirement to buy into some mass delusion? I am still thinking my way around that concept, but I know three things: God, Allah, Zues and all the rest do not exist. ALiens, if they do exist do not come to earth to probe our poor trailer dwellers orifaces, and lastly, i know that the fun of it is that there is no proof either way, these things will be argued over forever, as they are the ultimate Schroedingers Cat. God is both dead and alive because he refuses to come out of the box.


Maybe because deep inside all of us, we "know" there is a creator. ;)
  • 0

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#94 Heretic

Heretic

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,695 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 07

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:23 PM

Actually, you took that quote of mine out of context, in relation to the subject matter that I was asking 'Taxi' about.......go figure.

As it relates to the topic of Zionists, I actually said:



Doesn't seem like I was generalizing about Zionists, Israelis, or Jews, actually.


If you also said - "not all religion is bad" or "not all those who follow a religion are bad" then maybe I would believe you - sorry - you can't dodge Trinity. Not this time - keep deflecting or just admit it, ...

Look...I only want to hear 5 things from you.

Edited by Heretic, 15 July 2012 - 08:27 PM.

  • 0

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#95 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:41 PM

I concur. I do wonder though what the underlying issue is in humanity that drives us to religion...i mean aside from the 12-21 years of indoctrination from the age of FETUS to adulthood. I guess that goes a long way to drive home the messaging, but I wonder if there is some physiological requirement to buy into some mass delusion? I am still thinking my way around that concept, but I know three things: God, Allah, Zues and all the rest do not exist. ALiens, if they do exist do not come to earth to probe our poor trailer dwellers orifaces, and lastly, i know that the fun of it is that there is no proof either way, these things will be argued over forever, as they are the ultimate Schroedingers Cat. God is both dead and alive because he refuses to come out of the box.


The best hypothesis currently rests with the evolutionary process, by means of social selection and/or individual selection...perhaps both, perhaps one.

Behaviour like cooperation, fear, control, understanding, pattern seeking, seem to all have possibly played their part in our biological evolution and then into our social evolution as social animals, and then through our individual evolution as individuals who needed the collective to survive and who couldn't if they didn't go along with the shared communal beliefs, customs, or habits.

Eventually, I think we'll evolve out of this primitive belief as a species for the most part. Once people begin to feel the disadvantages of following or it has a negative consequence they'll adapt, as a group and/or individuals, in order to survive in the social structure. It'll be a similar thing that happens now to bring people to religion, except it'll occur in the opposite direction, imo. Just takes education, and the benefits of not following a religion to outweigh the current benefits that most people seem to feel they get from following a religion.

Slowly but surely.
  • 1

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#96 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:47 PM

If you also said - "not all religion is bad" or "not all those who follow a religion are bad" then maybe I would believe you - sorry - you can't dodge Trinity. Not this time - keep deflecting or just admit it, ...

Look...I only want to hear 5 things from you.


I;m not deflecting anything....I'm pointedly showing you that I wasn't and didn't generalize Israeli Zionists.....which again, for the 2nd time, is why I'm asking you to show me where I did...since that's what I was asking 'Taxi' do to by asking him/her who the "you guys' were who were generalizing.

Do you have an answer to that, or are you going to continue to evade and dodge by asking questions that are tangential to the question i'm once again reiterating, or will you willfully ignore it once again in a show of obtuseness?

Edited by Sharpshooter, 15 July 2012 - 08:47 PM.

  • 1

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#97 Heretic

Heretic

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,695 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 07

Posted 15 July 2012 - 08:53 PM

I;m not deflecting anything....I'm pointedly showing you that I wasn't and didn't generalize Israeli Zionists.....which again, for the 2nd time, is why I'm asking you to show me where I did...since that's what I was asking 'Taxi' do to by asking him/her who the "you guys' were who were generalizing.

Do you have an answer to that, or are you going to continue to evade and dodge by asking questions that are tangential to the question i'm once again reiterating, or will you willfully ignore it once again in a show of obtuseness?


I already answered your "question" SharpDodger:

Again, you said:

Yep....it was made public. Anyone that messages me their batcrap better expect it to be shared with the rest of the class.

And I disagree....what's wrong with this P/I conflict, this region, the world is religion. Religion poisons everything...including relationships.



I did not say you were generalizing Israeli Zionists - I said you were generalizing religion. :frantic:


Sharpshooter, I have five words i wanna hear from you: you know Heretic., you're a great guy and a great worker and i love you like a son, you were right, and i'm sorry. Actually that's more like 20 words or something but how about just: Heretic., i'm sorry, and i love ya.

Edited by Heretic, 15 July 2012 - 08:55 PM.

  • 1

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#98 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 15 July 2012 - 09:13 PM

I already answered your "question" SharpDodger:

Again, you said:




I did not say you were generalizing Israeli Zionists - I said you were generalizing religion. :frantic:


Sharpshooter, I have five words i wanna hear from you: you know Heretic., you're a great guy and a great worker and i love you like a son, you were right, and i'm sorry. Actually that's more like 20 words or something but how about just: Heretic., i'm sorry, and i love ya.


So, you came into a conversation between Taxi and myself and answered a question, meant specifically for him, that I specifically posed to him, and answered it with something that had nothing to do in regards to the accusations of generalization around Israeli Zionists, but rather had to do with an unrelated comment that I made to someone else, about something else? :huh:


Edit - By the way, nice try in attempting to edit your post in order to not look like a puerile child by calling me by an equally puerile name. I've said it before and i'll say it again, since you didn't heed my advice to you the previous occasion. Grow up.

Edited by Sharpshooter, 15 July 2012 - 09:41 PM.

  • 1

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#99 Heretic

Heretic

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,695 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:01 AM

So, you came into a conversation between Taxi and myself and answered a question, meant specifically for him, that I specifically posed to him, and answered it with something that had nothing to do in regards to the accusations of generalization around Israeli Zionists, but rather had to do with an unrelated comment that I made to someone else, about something else? :huh:


Edit - By the way, nice try in attempting to edit your post in order to not look like a puerile child by calling me by an equally puerile name. I've said it before and i'll say it again, since you didn't heed my advice to you the previous occasion. Grow up.


Tell me, how many times have you jumped into someone else conversation? LOL

If it was a private conversation - then why wasn't it a PM?

Oh right - to you, all messages are public.

Grow up? Good one....Not!

Again...I never said you "generalized" Zionists - I said you "generalized" religion.
  • 0

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#100 taxi

taxi

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,087 posts
  • Joined: 16-September 06

Posted 16 July 2012 - 09:08 AM

Not sure what 'complexity' of his you were trying to show, in regards to his views on Israeli Zionism, with that particular clip, since he didn't address Zionism at all.
.
He did however, reiterate his views against the Israeli occupation of Palestine and for a 2 state solution, as he's always said.


Clearly his views on Israel softened over time. If you look at the comments he was making a decade ago vs now about Israel, ther's a clear change in tone.

Here's an article he wrote on "Flotilla II":

http://fullcomment.n...-gaza-flotilla/

The little boats cannot make much difference to the welfare of Gaza either way, since the materials being shipped are in such negligible quantity. The chief significance of the enterprise is therefore symbolic. And the symbolism, when examined even cursorily, doesn't seem too adorable. The intended beneficiary of the stunt is a ruling group with close ties to two of the most retrograde dictatorships in the Middle East, each of which has recently been up to its elbows in the blood of its own civilians. The same group also manages to maintain warm relations with, or at the very least to make cordial remarks about, both Hezbollah and al-Qaida. Meanwhile, a document that was once accurately described as a "warrant for genocide" forms part of the declared political platform of the aforesaid group. There is something about this that fails to pass a smell test. I wonder whether any reporter on the scene will now take me up on this.


He seems firmly against the "activists".
  • 0

#101 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:02 AM

Clearly his views on Israel softened over time. If you look at the comments he was making a decade ago vs now about Israel, ther's a clear change in tone.

Here's an article he wrote on "Flotilla II":

http://fullcomment.n...-gaza-flotilla/



He seems firmly against the "activists".


Oh, I'm not suggesting he was ever anti-Israel or anything close as such, where he had to 'soften' anything later on. The Flotilla attack critique is as much a critique on activists on all sides. The issue of Israeli Zionism it seems, at least to me, was a separate point/critique of his from day one, till the day he died. He was against Israel's desire to occupy and hold Palestinians hostage then and recently, as much as he was against the charlatans in charge of Hamas or Hezbollah who kept the Palestinians in squalor and subjugation while being proxies for others. Hitch was never in any one camp, other than recognizing that the only solution was a 2 state one or shared annihilation.

Hitch, as you or someone rightly stated earlier on, had layers of complexity to his thoughts and opinion. While he was very much for a two-state solution, he never held back at critiquing either state actor, or their supporters. What he did recognize and is one of his central points revolving around his thoughts about the conflict over there, for land, by many competing interests, is that the whole thing...the land, the people, the claims of ownership and birth-rights, of support and of protest, is mainly and chiefly issues that have been hijacked by the various radical factions within the parties of a desert God. They all lay claim based on their version of their 'holy' books. The Zionists who are religious use religion, and the Zionists who aren't religious are just as fervent in their beliefs in setting up and controlling their own ethnocentric caliphate, which would still exclude all others from power because of religious affiliation.
  • 2

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#102 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:14 AM

Tell me, how many times have you jumped into someone else conversation? LOL

If it was a private conversation - then why wasn't it a PM?

Oh right - to you, all messages are public.

Grow up? Good one....Not!

Again...I never said you "generalized" Zionists - I said you "generalized" religion.



And you continue to be completely obtuse. I asked a pointed question specifically to another member to answer, not privately, regarding who he specifically was talking about in relation to lobbing an accusation of generalization surrounding Israeli Zionists, which is what we were discussing, primarily, between the two of us......and then you leaped in to give an answer to the question about a topic...'religion'.....that we weren't discussing.

Do you understand what you did now? And if i've ever answered a question that wasn't meant for me, I at least stayed on topic.....which is something you can't seem to recognize yourself as not being able to do. If you wanted to discuss my generalization of religion, then you could have just asked me about it, and we could have done so. Instead, you childishly jumped into discourse that was focused elsewhere, and tried to steer it somewhere else. And if your defence of your actions is 'well you've done it too', then it only further cements your continued childish behaviour thus far, and leads me to continue to suggest that you indeed do attempt to grow up.
  • 1

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#103 Heretic

Heretic

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,695 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:35 AM

And you continue to be completely obtuse. I asked a pointed question specifically to another member to answer, not privately, regarding who he specifically was talking about in relation to lobbing an accusation of generalization surrounding Israeli Zionists, which is what we were discussing, primarily, between the two of us......and then you leaped in to give an answer to the question about a topic...'religion'.....that we weren't discussing.

Do you understand what you did now? And if i've ever answered a question that wasn't meant for me, I at least stayed on topic.....which is something you can't seem to recognize yourself as not being able to do. If you wanted to discuss my generalization of religion, then you could have just asked me about it, and we could have done so. Instead, you childishly jumped into discourse that was focused elsewhere, and tried to steer it somewhere else. And if your defence of your actions is 'well you've done it too', then it only further cements your continued childish behaviour thus far, and leads me to continue to suggest that you indeed do attempt to grow up.


So instead of not staying on topic here yourself - why didn't you just PM me?

BTW - I'm going to keep this post and apply it to yourself the next time I see you do the same.
  • 0

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#104 taxi

taxi

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,087 posts
  • Joined: 16-September 06

Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:38 AM

Oh, I'm not suggesting he was ever anti-Israel or anything close as such, where he had to 'soften' anything later on. The Flotilla attack critique is as much a critique on activists on all sides. The issue of Israeli Zionism it seems, at least to me, was a separate point/critique of his from day one, till the day he died. He was against Israel's desire to occupy and hold Palestinians hostage then and recently, as much as he was against the charlatans in charge of Hamas or Hezbollah who kept the Palestinians in squalor and subjugation while being proxies for others. Hitch was never in any one camp, other than recognizing that the only solution was a 2 state one or shared annihilation.

Hitch, as you or someone rightly stated earlier on, had layers of complexity to his thoughts and opinion. While he was very much for a two-state solution, he never held back at critiquing either state actor, or their supporters. What he did recognize and is one of his central points revolving around his thoughts about the conflict over there, for land, by many competing interests, is that the whole thing...the land, the people, the claims of ownership and birth-rights, of support and of protest, is mainly and chiefly issues that have been hijacked by the various radical factions within the parties of a desert God. They all lay claim based on their version of their 'holy' books. The Zionists who are religious use religion, and the Zionists who aren't religious are just as fervent in their beliefs in setting up and controlling their own ethnocentric caliphate, which would still exclude all others from power because of religious affiliation.


I think you are misusing the word "Zionist". Technically, anyone who argues for two state solution is a zionist as they are pushing a Jewish homeland. You seem to be using the term more in the context of hardliners who want all of the West Bank.
  • 0

#105 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:58 AM

So instead of not staying on topic here yourself - why didn't you just PM me?

BTW - I'm going to keep this post and apply it to yourself the next time I see you do the same.



Just further confirmation of the depths to your pettiness and childishness.
  • 1

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#106 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:10 PM

I think you are misusing the word "Zionist". Technically, anyone who argues for two state solution is a zionist as they are pushing a Jewish homeland. You seem to be using the term more in the context of hardliners who want all of the West Bank.


I don't think i'm using the word incorrectly, as it relates to the land that some Israelis believe should be rightly theirs. The Jews already have a 'homeland', it's called Israel. The difference is that the Zionists also want all of Jerusalem, all the West Bank, and some may even want parts of Syria, Egypt and other parcels of land that belong to other countries. 2 states divided by Palestinians/Muslims on that one region land, isn't for many Israelis, Zionism, it's capitulation. All Zionists are hard-liners in their desire for an Israeli reclamation.. There's no moderate Zionist that's willing to give up land they believe is theirs to others.

I think what you're misunderstanding is that not all Zionists, are religious fundamentalist Zionists, and that i'm not suggesting as such.
  • 1

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#107 key2thecup

key2thecup

    Canucks Second-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4,630 posts
  • Joined: 28-November 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:31 PM

Great to have you back Sharp!
  • 1

Dr. Ron Paul 2016!

 


#108 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:22 PM

Great to have you back Sharp!



You say that now. :lol: :P


But thanks, i do appreciate you saying so.
  • 0

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#109 taxi

taxi

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,087 posts
  • Joined: 16-September 06

Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:47 PM

I don't think i'm using the word incorrectly, as it relates to the land that some Israelis believe should be rightly theirs. The Jews already have a 'homeland', it's called Israel. The difference is that the Zionists also want all of Jerusalem, all the West Bank, and some may even want parts of Syria, Egypt and other parcels of land that belong to other countries. 2 states divided by Palestinians/Muslims on that one region land, isn't for many Israelis, Zionism, it's capitulation. All Zionists are hard-liners in their desire for an Israeli reclamation.. There's no moderate Zionist that's willing to give up land they believe is theirs to others.

I think what you're misunderstanding is that not all Zionists, are religious fundamentalist Zionists, and that i'm not suggesting as such.


I disagree with you. Zionism merely involves founding one homeland for the Jewish people. Defined borders are not a pre-requisite for being a zionist. Some zionist take different approaches as to how far they want to expand their territories. Like in all movements, some will be more hardline than others.
  • 0

#110 Primal Optimist

Primal Optimist

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,920 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 03

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:08 PM

Maybe because deep inside all of us, we "know" there is a creator. ;)

That is a very scientific approach, lol. I "know" deep down inside that there is most certainly no plausible way that all of 'creation' is explained by an uncreated creator. All the argument does when one includes a 'god' is move the whole thing back one more step...where did 'god' come from? WHose god? Your god? You know that we agree that 190,000 gods Do not exist, the only one you 'know' deep down inside does exist happens to be the one you were raised to believe in. right? If you were born on the plains of africa 3 thousand years ago, would you 'know' deep down that god exists? I doubt it, its a fairy tale that even your parents bought into, and thus raised you to also buy into. At least, that is my agreement with a few authors on the subject.
  • 4


CDC GM League Posted Image General Manager

Happy Hockey Fan!!!


#111 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:16 PM

I disagree with you. Zionism merely involves founding one homeland for the Jewish people. Defined borders are not a pre-requisite for being a zionist. Some zionist take different approaches as to how far they want to expand their territories. Like in all movements, some will be more hardline than others.


You seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you're asserting that to be a Zionist, one calls for the establishment of nationalistic homeland, which logically requires well defined borders, for those of the Jewish faith......and on the other hand you're suggesting that zionists are still zionists without calling for defined borders for their homeland.

Which is it? And how can you have a 'homeland' if you don't have borders around a parcel of land to call your own, and as such 'home'??
  • 0

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#112 taxi

taxi

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,087 posts
  • Joined: 16-September 06

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:21 PM

You seem to be contradicting yourself. On the one hand you're asserting that to be a Zionist, one calls for the establishment of nationalistic homeland, which logically requires well defined borders, for those of the Jewish faith......and on the other hand you're suggesting that zionists are still zionists without calling for defined borders for their homeland.

Which is it? And how can you have a 'homeland' if you don't have borders around a parcel of land to call your own, and as such 'home'??


I haven't said anything that's a contradiction. You can agree on the need for a country without agreeing on what the boarders should be.
  • 0

#113 Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter

    Canucks Hall-of-Famer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,379 posts
  • Joined: 31-August 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:31 PM

I haven't said anything that's a contradiction. You can agree on the need for a country without agreeing on what the boarders should be.


So Zionists are merely existential philosophers then??
  • 0

Posted Image Pittsburgh Penguins - CDC GML Posted Image


"My goal is to win the Stanley Cup, and after the offer I received from Buffalo, I believe this is the best place to make it happen." - Christian Ehrhoff


#114 Primal Optimist

Primal Optimist

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,920 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 03

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:36 PM

I haven't said anything that's a contradiction. You can agree on the need for a country without agreeing on what the boarders should be.

I suppose I will agree with the broad general idea here. You can say generally that Unicornia ought to exist where roughly Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama do now, without meaning directly a perfect fit within those current borders. I guess you could also look at the other side of the coin and believe that it could and should have a right to exist and constantly expand as necessary.

Not taking sides in the whole debate, but on the topic of borders: i don't think they are necessarily a cogent necessity to the zionist movement, I am not saying anyone here is a zionist, or is not one...just that the borders idea is not a necessary ingredient in the thought process, per se.
  • 0


CDC GM League Posted Image General Manager

Happy Hockey Fan!!!


#115 Primal Optimist

Primal Optimist

    Canucks Franchise Player

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,920 posts
  • Joined: 04-March 03

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:39 PM

For me, I have thought since I was in Damascus and Tel Aviv, about a decade ago, that perhaps a three state solution is best. Isreal, Gaza and the West Bank. I just don't get how a divided nation for palestinians would really work out...i don't think it would. The two halves could be completely independant of each other and sign bilateral agreements on imigration, citizenship, taxation, currency or whatever they want as time marches on, but to tie them together at 'birth' is a mistake.

Edited by Primal Optimist, 16 July 2012 - 03:39 PM.

  • 0


CDC GM League Posted Image General Manager

Happy Hockey Fan!!!


#116 Heretic

Heretic

    Canucks All-Star

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15,695 posts
  • Joined: 08-April 07

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:56 PM

That is a very scientific approach, lol. I "know" deep down inside that there is most certainly no plausible way that all of 'creation' is explained by an uncreated creator. All the argument does when one includes a 'god' is move the whole thing back one more step...where did 'god' come from? WHose god? Your god? You know that we agree that 190,000 gods Do not exist, the only one you 'know' deep down inside does exist happens to be the one you were raised to believe in. right? If you were born on the plains of africa 3 thousand years ago, would you 'know' deep down that god exists? I doubt it, its a fairy tale that even your parents bought into, and thus raised you to also buy into. At least, that is my agreement with a few authors on the subject.


My parents are atheists - I wasn't "brought up into it" and I didn't mention "God" - I said "creator".
I didn't mention science neither.
A few "authors" on the subject?
I have a few "authors" as well - but that's neither here nor there.

Sorry to derail the thread.
  • 0

McCoy: We were speculating. Is God really out there?
Kirk: Maybe he's not out there, Bones. Maybe he's right here. [points to his heart]

Posted Image


#117 Drybone

Drybone

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,403 posts
  • Joined: 01-July 12

Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:56 PM

I already answered your "question" SharpDodger:

Again, you said:




I did not say you were generalizing Israeli Zionists - I said you were generalizing religion. :frantic:


Sharpshooter, I have five words i wanna hear from you: you know Heretic., you're a great guy and a great worker and i love you like a son, you were right, and i'm sorry. Actually that's more like 20 words or something but how about just: Heretic., i'm sorry, and i love ya.


You have a better chance of Martians landing from above than you do from this request . Its always negative. You can set a clock by it. . :sadno:
  • 0
Posted Image

#118 Satan's Evil Twin

Satan's Evil Twin

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,028 posts
  • Joined: 02-September 06

Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:03 PM

*
POPULAR

You have a better chance of Martians landing from above than you do from this request . Its always negative. You can set a clock by it. . :sadno:


Posted Image
I don't like you.
  • 6

Posted Image


Father (Peace be upon You) Satan (Peace be upon You), I call to you (Peace be upon You) from the deepest parts of my heart, I praise your (Peace be upon You) name with every breath of my body, I worship you (Peace be upon You) with every fiber of my being. You (Peace be upon You) shown me what true strength is. You (Peace be upon You) have shown me what true love is. Out of the darkness you (Peace be upon You) came to show me the true light.


My master (Peace be upon You), my father (Peace be upon You) and my friend (Peace be upon You) what a great gift that is.


Posted Image Hail to the King (PBUH)! Posted Image


#119 taxi

taxi

    Canucks Third-Line

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,087 posts
  • Joined: 16-September 06

Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:05 PM

For me, I have thought since I was in Damascus and Tel Aviv, about a decade ago, that perhaps a three state solution is best. Isreal, Gaza and the West Bank. I just don't get how a divided nation for palestinians would really work out...i don't think it would. The two halves could be completely independant of each other and sign bilateral agreements on imigration, citizenship, taxation, currency or whatever they want as time marches on, but to tie them together at 'birth' is a mistake.


The divide really isn't that far though. People, just don't realize how small Israel is. You easily set up a highway that would allow you to drive to the Gaza Strip from the West Bank in under 20 minutes. That being said, the divisions in Palestinian society between Hamas and the rest are going to be fairly hard to close.

The cultural divisions between the Palestinians may now exceed the geographic ones.

Edited by taxi, 16 July 2012 - 04:06 PM.

  • 0

#120 Drybone

Drybone

    Canucks Prospect

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,403 posts
  • Joined: 01-July 12

Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:06 PM

That is a very scientific approach, lol. I "know" deep down inside that there is most certainly no plausible way that all of 'creation' is explained by an uncreated creator. All the argument does when one includes a 'god' is move the whole thing back one more step...where did 'god' come from? WHose god? Your god? You know that we agree that 190,000 gods Do not exist, the only one you 'know' deep down inside does exist happens to be the one you were raised to believe in. right? If you were born on the plains of africa 3 thousand years ago, would you 'know' deep down that god exists? I doubt it, its a fairy tale that even your parents bought into, and thus raised you to also buy into. At least, that is my agreement with a few authors on the subject.


This is what an Agnostic says.

This post then goes on to put people of faith down -right after the suggestion there is no way to prove it or not.

Not very 'optimistic'


This post doesn't explain anything. Instead of putting peoples beliefs down, how about instead you espouse the joys of atheism. Tell us why its so great to be an Atheist.

You are supposed to be an 'optimist' right?
  • 0
Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users

Canucks.com is the official Web site of The Vancouver Canucks. The Vancouver Canucks and Canucks.com are trademarks of The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership.  NHL and the word mark and image of the Stanley Cup are registered trademarks and the NHL Shield and NHL Conference logos are trademarks of the National Hockey League. All NHL logos and marks and NHL team logos and marks as well as all other proprietary materials depicted herein are the property of the NHL and the respective NHL teams and may not be reproduced without the prior written consent of NHL Enterprises, L.P.  Copyright © 2009 The Vancouver Canucks Limited Partnership and the National Hockey League.  All Rights Reserved.