Neufy161 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Front loading the contract like that makes no sense for a player like Doan. That tactic is used to lower a cap hit for long contracts to players under 35 years of age. If he retires before the end of this contract, the hit is still on the books. Might as well pay him 6 mill through and through. Just seems odd to me...unless it's considered a signing bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 In my opinion, Messier is up there with Keenan as one of the biggest mistakes in Canucks history. But your argument about age and using Messier as an argument that Doan will be a failure doesn't quite add up. Messier didn't really hav anything left to prove - he was utterly uninspiring in Vancouver - I'd go so far as to say he was a pure floater - and worse, he divided the franchise when he accepted the "C - and being a Ranger who had stolen the Cup from us, the taste was bad from the start. On the other hand, when Messier was 35 years old in New York, he put up 47 goals and 99 points - at 36 he put up 36 goals and 84 points - in Vancouver at 37 it was 22 and 60.... at 40 he scored 24 goals and 67 points. He decided to play until he was 43/44 years old - I honestly thought he brought next to nothing with him to Vancouver. He was no longer a physical force, I could care less about his intangible "leadership" (example is the best form of leadership...) and I don't think he was much of one. Anyway, I don't care much for the comparison. The differences between he and Doan, imo, couldn't be more significant. Doan is still a physical force, he has a serious drive to win, something he has not had the opportunity to do, I don't see him coming in and being handed a "C" (or having the seas part for him), and I just see next to no chance of him pulling a Messier v2.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tearloch7 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 There is definitely inherent risk with Doan, and I was initially opposed to giving him a four year deal, but is there a better fit for sticking out there with the Sedins if/when (more when than if tbh) someone decides they're a Lucic/Ladd when they're really a Marchand/Bolland. Doan would put an end to that right frickin' quick and Doan actually has the skill to play in a top-six role. Once the liberties abate, the twins can go back to doing what they do best. And really, is there a better mentor for Kassian both on and off the ice? People forget how much credit Naslund gave to Messier for help in overcoming Naslund's self doubt and how Naslund took off after that. Same goes for the twins & Kesler with Naslund, Linden & Sundin. I don't think there is a more similar player than Doan when it comes to what Gillis wants to get out of Kassian and if overpaying Doan gives us better odds of helping Kassian reach his ceiling (20-25g 35-50a 100+PIMs) that is worth every penny of a $24m deal. Our next decade depends on Jensen & Kassian actually realizing their potential and having Doan & the Sedins there to guide them is a great start towards that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 There is definitely inherent risk with Doan, and I was initially opposed to giving him a four year deal, but is there a better fit for sticking out there with the Sedins if/when (more when than if tbh) someone decides they're a Lucic/Ladd when they're really a Marchand/Bolland. Doan would put an end to that right frickin' quick and Doan actually has the skill to play in a top-six role. Once the liberties abate, the twins can go back to doing what they do best. And really, is there a better mentor for Kassian both on and off the ice? People forget how much credit Naslund gave to Messier for help in overcoming Naslund's self doubt and how Naslund took off after that. Same goes for the twins & Kesler with Naslund, Linden & Sundin. I don't think there is a more similar player than Doan when it comes to what Gillis wants to get out of Kassian and if overpaying Doan gives us better odds of helping Kassian reach his ceiling (20-25g 35-50a 100+PIMs) that is worth every penny of a $24m deal. Our next decade depends on Jensen & Kassian actually realizing their potential and having Doan & the Sedins there to guide them is a great start towards that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16mark Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Sadly the more this drags out the more I think he's just using the Canucks to put pressure on Phoenix. He said on CKNW that Friday was the decision day. But the deadline keeps on being extended like Doans waiting for something. Waiting for Phoenix to get there collective $hat together. He's just playing off us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Sadly the more this drags out the more I think he's just using the Canucks to put pressure on Phoenix. He said on CKNW that Friday was the decision day. But the deadline keeps on being extended like Doans waiting for something. Waiting for Phoenix to get there collective $hat together. He's just playing off us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 If we get Doan, could anyone see a 'Ray Bourque' scenario happening where Doan wins the Cup with us then retires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Systemaddict Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Sadly the more this drags out the more I think he's just using the Canucks to put pressure on Phoenix. He said on CKNW that Friday was the decision day. But the deadline keeps on being extended like Doans waiting for something. Waiting for Phoenix to get there collective $hat together. He's just playing off us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I've never known Doan to be an enforcer or a fighter. He has 4 fights in the past 3 NHL seasons. Repeat 4 fight in past 3 seasons. So I don't expect his role to be protecting the Sedins or stop opposing players from roughing up current Canuck players. Not the least bit. If we are going to sign a 36 year old player to $6 or $7 mill per year for 4 years to be Kassian's mentor this is going to be a bigger catastrophe than I first thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Messier was one of the most physical players of his generation. He was called the Moose for a reason. Doan has never been as physical as Messier was. The fact is age caught up to Mes as will to Doan. Thats why its a bad idea to sign him to a 3 or 4 year contract. Name one player that is a physical force in the NHL at the age Doan would be during his next contract. If its a 4 year contract he will be 36 when it starts and almost 40 when it ends. He's a 50pt guy right now. His point prodiction will only decline and he will be unable to play a very physical game. This will be an albatross contract. Ofcourse there is zero chance the Canucks will strip Henrik of the C and give it to Doan. What has Doan ever accomplished in his NHL career as a captain that would justify doing such a thing? I strongly disagree with your claim that Doan has a serious drive to win and Messier didn't. If Doan wanted to win so bad he would not have re-signed with PHX on his last contract and he would not be contemplating re-signing with PHX right now. There is little to no chance PHX wins a cup in the next 3 or 4 years. Doan chose to stay in PHX because of the lifestyle. He and his family love living in PHX. They chose the lifestyle of living in PHX over moving to another city for a chance to win a cup. So there is absolutely no proof to your claim that Doan has a stronger drive to win then Messier did. As a matter of fact evidence points to the opposite of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Have you actually watched Doana play much? .. he is going to "protect" the Sedins? .. that is a funny one .. he is like the cowardly lion .. won't even defend himself unless he is cornered or the other player is like one of the Sedins .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Make up your mind - was signing Messier a complete bust as your first post claimed, or is he the player you are singing the praises of in this one? Messier was one of the most physical players of his generation - when he was an Oiler (the first twelve years of his endless career) - he was as dominant as any player in the NHL. But by the time he came to Vancouver, there was no comparison whatsoever to his former self - to suggest that he brought the drive to win that he had earlier in his career would suggest you were not around or didn't actually watch hockey back then. Your claim that Doan has never been as physical as Messier misses that point entirely. Doan is still a guy who throws 200 hits. Messier went from the first guy, hands down, that I would have built an organization around, to the last player in the NHL I wanted to see coasting around in a Vancouver jersey. And that is what we are talking about here - comparing the Messier that played in Vancouver - to what is negatively expected of Doan. Not much to live up to. Doan is a 50 point guy now - he was a 50 point guy a decade ago - he;s moved in the 50 to 70 point range throughout his career - there is as much chance he hits 70 again as there is he turns into a white top. To suggest that a 35 year old is necessarily done or can no longer play physical hockey would suggest you have never heard of Gordie Howe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merci Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 There is no doubt Doan's first choice is to re-sign with PHX. If the team gets bought and it looks like they will be staying in PHX Doan will re-sign. He likes living in PHX. His family does also. He won't win a Cup there but he will make lots of money playing hockey in a city he loves living in. Unlike many other ppl I don't buy into the whole "lifelong dream to win a cup" thing. When you get older your priorities change. Family and lifestyle trump child hood fantasies. So does money. If you win a Cup great, and its an awesome thing but its not the number one thing in life for a 36 year old with wife and kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mclean_is_#1 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 The cap hit has nothing to do with FE loaded contracts... the cap hit is the average over the duration of the contract. This is why is amazes me when people are so concerned about front loaded contracts... it has no impact on us or our team at all! The player simply gets a high paycheck that year and a low one the next... cap hit remains the same the entire contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 And what were those fights for? Retaliation for cheapshots. Did you sleep through Doan's attempt to get at Dustin Brown when he took out Rozsival in the Conference Finals? Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan first. If not, do you think he'd let Brown get away with this: There'd be no referee to impede Doan's beeline to Brown in that instance. Instead we get Burrows trying to manhandle Kopitar who just ends up manhandling Burrows instead... You misinterpreted the need for a top-six forward that can both produce top-six numbers and stand up for teammates when a rat starts taking liberties with a straight enforcer (ie, sticking Laraque with the twins where you'll get a deterrent but you'll kill your offensive production as well). You don't think Doan would get 18-25g 25-35a per year here whilst providing 100+ heavy hits, as well as helping in the player development process? If this team doesn't start getting contributions from our top end draft picks, this team is in much bigger long term trouble than having Doan @ $6m max. Gillis & Gillman's red-line is the Sedin's $6.1m. There is no way they give him a penny more than $6m per, imo. Please name a better player to take Kassian under his wing than Doan? Kesler? He's an off-ice d-bag and he's been championing taking the easy way out with over the top embellishing as of late. The Sedins? They aren't going to be able to explain how and when to step up for a teammate that's been hit with a cheap shot. Tell me, do you think Gillis & Gillman are dumb? If not, why do you think they are pursuing Doan so intently and do you really think they're going to offer 4-years/$28m+? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neufy161 Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 I know the average of the contract is the cap hit. I'm not an idiot. Don't tell me front ended contracts don't impact a team. Say you sign a 25 year old 80 point player for 15 years at a 6 mill cap hit with the majority of his money coming in the first 10 years. By age 40, it is likely his averages drop to only 30 points. While he may only make 1 mill a season like a 30 point producer should, his cap hit STILL is equivelant to a 70+ point player. IE, do you think, at age 41, Parise and Sutter will be worth their 7.5 cap hit? Explain how that doesn't affect a team's salary structure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 go away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Sorry to break it to you kid, but this is reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Sorry to break it to you, but MG knows what he's doing with his job much better than you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pears Posted August 4, 2012 Share Posted August 4, 2012 Tell me then, why are you a member of these boards? Its not to discuss hockey and the Canucks? Oh I see, you like to make posts to discuss hockey too. Like the following one. /index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=10822255">Steven Stamkos, on 01 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said: To Vancouver: Shawn Matthias + Alex Petrovic and/or Nick Bjugstad + 2013 1st To Florida: Roberto Luongo + Mason Raymond Luongo = Matthias & 1st Raymond = Bjugstad/Petrovic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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