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#961 Systemaddict

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:52 PM

Sadly the more this drags out the more I think he's just using the Canucks to put pressure on Phoenix.

He said on CKNW that Friday was the decision day. But the deadline keeps on being extended like Doans waiting for something. Waiting for Phoenix to get there collective $hat together. He's just playing off us.


When was Doan on CKNW? Because I'm pretty sure he hasn't had an interview since the season was out - and if he has, it certainly hasn't been with Vancouver media.

I believe you're referring to comments made by his agent which stated that "if it isn't cleared up by Friday, then they plan to move on and explore other options". That's much different that the Friday being the "decision day".

And this is the problem with fans and media, expecting something to be done and basing info on nothing but hearsay. The guy is packing up his family and moving them, after spending the last 16 years in the same place. Why do people need to be so cynical to think that this is him playing teams against each other, or him wanting 30 Million...the reality is he's probably just pretty considerate and realizes he's making a big decision that affects a lot more people than himself. He's in a fortunate position to be able to take his time.
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#962 Millerdraft

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:58 PM

I've never known Doan to be an enforcer or a fighter. He has 4 fights in the past 3 NHL seasons. Repeat 4 fight in past 3 seasons.
So I don't expect his role to be protecting the Sedins or stop opposing players from roughing up current Canuck players. Not the least bit.

If we are going to sign a 36 year old player to $6 or $7 mill per year for 4 years to be Kassian's mentor this is going to be a bigger catastrophe than I first thought.


And what were those fights for? Retaliation for cheapshots. Did you sleep through Doan's attempt to get at Dustin Brown when he took out Rozsival in the Conference Finals? Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan first.

If not, do you think he'd let Brown get away with this:


There'd be no referee to impede Doan's beeline to Brown in that instance. Instead we get Burrows trying to manhandle Kopitar who just ends up manhandling Burrows instead...

You misinterpreted the need for a top-six forward that can both produce top-six numbers and stand up for teammates when a rat starts taking liberties with a straight enforcer (ie, sticking Laraque with the twins where you'll get a deterrent but you'll kill your offensive production as well). You don't think Doan would get 18-25g 25-35a per year here whilst providing 100+ heavy hits, as well as helping in the player development process? If this team doesn't start getting contributions from our top end draft picks, this team is in much bigger long term trouble than having Doan @ $6m max.

Gillis & Gillman's red-line is the Sedin's $6.1m. There is no way they give him a penny more than $6m per, imo. Please name a better player to take Kassian under his wing than Doan? Kesler? He's an off-ice d-bag and he's been championing taking the easy way out with over the top embellishing as of late. The Sedins? They aren't going to be able to explain how and when to step up for a teammate that's been hit with a cheap shot.

Tell me, do you think Gillis & Gillman are dumb? If not, why do you think they are pursuing Doan so intently and do you really think they're going to offer 4-years/$28m+?
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#963 oldnews

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:03 PM

Messier was one of the most physical players of his generation. He was called the Moose for a reason. Doan has never been as physical as Messier was. The fact is age caught up to Mes as will to Doan. Thats why its a bad idea to sign him to a 3 or 4 year contract.

Name one player that is a physical force in the NHL at the age Doan would be during his next contract. If its a 4 year contract he will be 36 when it starts and almost 40 when it ends. He's a 50pt guy right now. His point prodiction will only decline and he will be unable to play a very physical game. This will be an albatross contract.

Ofcourse there is zero chance the Canucks will strip Henrik of the C and give it to Doan. What has Doan ever accomplished in his NHL career as a captain that would justify doing such a thing? I strongly disagree with your claim that Doan has a serious drive to win and Messier didn't.

If Doan wanted to win so bad he would not have re-signed with PHX on his last contract and he would not be contemplating re-signing with PHX right now. There is little to no chance PHX wins a cup in the next 3 or 4 years. Doan chose to stay in PHX because of the lifestyle. He and his family love living in PHX. They chose the lifestyle of living in PHX over moving to another city for a chance to win a cup. So there is absolutely no proof to your claim that Doan has a stronger drive to win then Messier did. As a matter of fact evidence points to the opposite of that.


Which Messier are you talking about? The one that was a complete bust as your first post claimed, or the player you are singing the praises of in this one?
Messier was one of the most physical players of his generation - when he was an Oiler (the first twelve years of his endless career) - he was as dominant as any player in the NHL. But by the time he came to Vancouver, there was no comparison whatsoever to his former self - to suggest that he brought the drive to win that he had earlier in his career would suggest you were not around or didn't actually watch hockey back then. Your claim that Doan has never been as physical as Messier misses that point entirely. Doan is still a guy who throws 200 hits. Messier went from the first guy, hands down, that I would have built an organization around, to the last player in the NHL I wanted to see coasting around in a Vancouver jersey. And that is what we are talking about here - comparing the Messier that played in Vancouver - to what is negatively expected of Doan. Not much to live up to. Doan is a 50 point guy now - he was a 50 point guy a decade ago - he;s moved in the 50 to 70 point range throughout his career - there is as much chance he hits 70 again as there is he turns into a white top. To suggest that a 35 year old is necessarily done or can no longer play physical hockey would suggest you have never heard of Gordie Howe.

Edited by oldnews, 03 August 2012 - 11:21 PM.

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#964 Millerdraft

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 11:11 PM

Have you actually watched Doana play much? .. he is going to "protect" the Sedins? .. that is a funny one .. he is like the cowardly lion .. won't even defend himself unless he is cornered or the other player is like one of the Sedins .. :picard:


Guys like Lucic are unstoppable. Guys like Marchand, Brown, & Bolland can be toned down by Doan and that's all I care about (taking care of the rats). If you take a cheapshot on Henrik, he'll either come after you and fight or, if you won't fight he's capable of taking out your star player just as easily.






The difference is that Doan will drop his gloves after a cheapshot.
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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#965 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:04 AM

Make up your mind - was signing Messier a complete bust as your first post claimed, or is he the player you are singing the praises of in this one?
Messier was one of the most physical players of his generation - when he was an Oiler (the first twelve years of his endless career) - he was as dominant as any player in the NHL. But by the time he came to Vancouver, there was no comparison whatsoever to his former self - to suggest that he brought the drive to win that he had earlier in his career would suggest you were not around or didn't actually watch hockey back then. Your claim that Doan has never been as physical as Messier misses that point entirely. Doan is still a guy who throws 200 hits. Messier went from the first guy, hands down, that I would have built an organization around, to the last player in the NHL I wanted to see coasting around in a Vancouver jersey. And that is what we are talking about here - comparing the Messier that played in Vancouver - to what is negatively expected of Doan. Not much to live up to. Doan is a 50 point guy now - he was a 50 point guy a decade ago - he;s moved in the 50 to 70 point range throughout his career - there is as much chance he hits 70 again as there is he turns into a white top. To suggest that a 35 year old is necessarily done or can no longer play physical hockey would suggest you have never heard of Gordie Howe.


I was around to see Gretz/Messier and company in their glory days with the Oilers so I was definitely around to see Mess with the Canucks. You are confused and actually making my point for me. In this confused state you resort to saying things like "you weren't around, or you didn't watch hockey back then".

You say Mess was most dominant physically when he was younger. So what exactly is your argument? Perhaps I should remind you that I'm the one saying Doan is too old to sign to a 4 year $6 per year contract. You are the one who is arguing Doan will be physical when he's 39 years old. I gave you example of Mess being one of the most physical and meanest players of his generation who's age caught up to him like it has caught up to every living being to have ever lived.

If Messier, who is one of the most driven, meanest and accomplished players in the history of the NHL couldn't keep his physical play up when he got older what makes you think a player who has never accomplished anything significant in the NHL can?

You claim Messier didn't have the drive to win later on in his career. But Doan does. You fail to recognise it was Messier's age not his drive that was the problem when he was with the Canucks. What has Doan shown you to make you believe he is at all driven to win a Stanley Cup. He stayed in PHX because he likes the hot weather when he knew there is next to zero chance of winning. His number one choice is still to stay in PHX where he is unlikely to win a cup. He only wants to stay in PHX because he likes the city and the lifestyle it offers him. It has nothing to do with having drive to win a Cup.

To bring up Gordie Howe as an example to say Doan will be a physical player when he's 38 or 39 years old should make it very clear to you how desperate your arguement is.
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#966 Merci

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:25 AM

There is no doubt Doan's first choice is to re-sign with PHX. If the team gets bought and it looks like they will be staying in PHX Doan will re-sign. He likes living in PHX. His family does also. He won't win a Cup there but he will make lots of money playing hockey in a city he loves living in.

Unlike many other ppl I don't buy into the whole "lifelong dream to win a cup" thing. When you get older your priorities change. Family and lifestyle trump child hood fantasies. So does money. If you win a Cup great, and its an awesome thing but its not the number one thing in life for a 36 year old with wife and kids.


go away
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Keslerific, on 25 May 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:

Gaunce is wayy cooler though, Gaunce is the kind of guy you want to bring with you to Costco

 

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#967 mclean_is_#1

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:31 AM

The cap hit has nothing to do with FE loaded contracts... the cap hit is the average over the duration of the contract.

This is why is amazes me when people are so concerned about front loaded contracts... it has no impact on us or our team at all! The player simply gets a high paycheck that year and a low one the next... cap hit remains the same the entire contract.

I know the average of the contract is the cap hit. I'm not an idiot.

Don't tell me front ended contracts don't impact a team. Say you sign a 25 year old 80 point player for 15 years at a 6 mill cap hit with the majority of his money coming in the first 10 years. By age 40, it is likely his averages drop to only 30 points. While he may only make 1 mill a season like a 30 point producer should, his cap hit STILL is equivelant to a 70+ point player. IE, do you think, at age 41, Parise and Sutter will be worth their 7.5 cap hit? Explain how that doesn't affect a team's salary structure?
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"...but there is going to be that seventh game, we'll hope they can patch Linden up and get him in that one. He will play, you know he'll play. He'll play on crutches. He will play! And he'll play at Madison Square Garden on Tuesday night! The game is over!!!"
- Jim Robson during the final minutes of Game 6 of the 1994 Stanley Cup Final.

Thanks for the memories Trev!!!

#968 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:42 AM

And what were those fights for? Retaliation for cheapshots. Did you sleep through Doan's attempt to get at Dustin Brown when he took out Rozsival in the Conference Finals? Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan first.

If not, do you think he'd let Brown get away with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSIkLEhYHs

There'd be no referee to impede Doan's beeline to Brown in that instance. Instead we get Burrows trying to manhandle Kopitar who just ends up manhandling Burrows instead...

You misinterpreted the need for a top-six forward that can both produce top-six numbers and stand up for teammates when a rat starts taking liberties with a straight enforcer (ie, sticking Laraque with the twins where you'll get a deterrent but you'll kill your offensive production as well). You don't think Doan would get 18-25g 25-35a per year here whilst providing 100+ heavy hits, as well as helping in the player development process? If this team doesn't start getting contributions from our top end draft picks, this team is in much bigger long term trouble than having Doan @ $6m max.

Gillis & Gillman's red-line is the Sedin's $6.1m. There is no way they give him a penny more than $6m per, imo. Please name a better player to take Kassian under his wing than Doan? Kesler? He's an off-ice d-bag and he's been championing taking the easy way out with over the top embellishing as of late. The Sedins? They aren't going to be able to explain how and when to step up for a teammate that's been hit with a cheap shot.

Tell me, do you think Gillis & Gillman are dumb? If not, why do you think they are pursuing Doan so intently and do you really think they're going to offer 4-years/$28m+?


"Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan before he could .......",

Yeah I must have slept thru that ``attempt`` to get Brown.
Had Doan actually gotten Brown I might have remembered. What happened the rest of the game? Did Doan get him or did the ref keep getting in the middle?

If ifs and buts were candys and nuts wouldn`t it be a merry xmas!

When I said Doan had 4 fights in the past 3 seasons I meant 4 fights combined in the past 3 seasons not 4 fights per year in case I wasn't clear on that.

Shane Doan will not protect the Sedins from anyone. He's not a protector, enforcer, fighter, etc etc . Kevin Bieksa is much much better in that role than Shane Doan ever would be and look how much he deters the `rats`from annoying the Sedins.

Do I think MG and Gillman are dumb? Is this your argument for signing Doan? To justify overpaying and giving term to a soon to be 36 year old player you ask me if I think the mgmt is dumb for wanting to sign him? Do you agree with every thing mgmt does? I don't. I agree with most of the things they do but not everything. I'm sure you feal the same way. This is not a legit argument to make on your part. I expect much better from you Miller.

I agree with you that it`s unlikely MG offers Doan more than the $6.1 mill the Sedins make but we don`t know that. I only go by the rumours we've all heard that it would take 4 years and close to $7 mill per year. This is why I write $6 to $7 mill.

Don`t get me wrong, I would like to have Doan on this team too. But not for 4 years and not for $6+ million per year. UFA`s allways get overpaid. It happens year after year and this situation is no different. Doan will be an effective player for max 2 more years. By the end of that he'll be almost 38 years old. Too old, too much money, not good IMO.

Edited by WHL rocks, 04 August 2012 - 01:21 AM.

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#969 Neufy161

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:42 AM

I know the average of the contract is the cap hit. I'm not an idiot.

Don't tell me front ended contracts don't impact a team. Say you sign a 25 year old 80 point player for 15 years at a 6 mill cap hit with the majority of his money coming in the first 10 years. By age 40, it is likely his averages drop to only 30 points. While he may only make 1 mill a season like a 30 point producer should, his cap hit STILL is equivelant to a 70+ point player. IE, do you think, at age 41, Parise and Sutter will be worth their 7.5 cap hit? Explain how that doesn't affect a team's salary structure?


I wasn't going to put this much effort into a reply, but your "I'm not an idiot" comment inspired me.
"Explain how that doesn't affect a team's salary structure?" Challange accepted.
................

For some reason you dont take the NHL's inherent inflation into consideration when making your statements.
Over the last 8 years the salary cap has increases approx. 180% that's about 22.5% PER YEAR. Taking this into consideration, lets re visit your post.

"While he may only make 1 mill a season like a 30 point producer should" Please fellow CDC'er tell me you don't actually believe, that a 30 pt producer today will make the exact same as a 30 point producer in 15 years... This is where our conversation ends because your entire premise is flawed.

With the way the salary cap is structured, combined with the huge percentage its increases year-to-year; those 7.5 mil cap hits in 12 years aren't going to be as dramatic as they are now. Example - Look at the salary cap in the first year it was introduced; 39 million in 2005 - 2006. A long and at the time high contract like 5.25 million back then is common in the current NHL for players that aren't as skilled as the original player was when the contract was signed.

As time progresses and the salary cap rises, players with the long contracts take the risk of being under-payed compared to other players of their stature who are signing UFA contracts that current year.

Look at Martin St. Louis, in 2003-2004 he records the highest pts in the NHL at 94. Signs a new contract at the time with Tampa bay at 5.25 million 6 year contract. Then resigns in 2011 - 2012 for more @5.62mil for 5 years!

Why more?
Is he as productive as he was in 2003 - 2004? No
Is he older? yes
Is this contract at risk of staying on the books if he retires? (unlikely... but possible) yes... its now a 35+ contract

Do you think that if Tampa Bay could, they would go back and sign him to an 11 year, 5.25 million dollar contract?
That's Not 35+
That's Less money
That possesses no retirement risk

Now 5+ million dollar contracts are getting passed around like water.


In 12 years these 7.5 mil deals are going to be peanuts.

Edited by Neufy161, 04 August 2012 - 01:17 AM.

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Oh hello Alain Vigneault, I see what you did there... good one.

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#970 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:43 AM

go away


Sorry to break it to you kid, but its reality.

Oh yeah while I`m at it, there is no Santa Clause. The presents under the tree are put there by you parents and not St. Nik.

Edited by WHL rocks, 04 August 2012 - 12:46 AM.

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#971 Pears

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 12:47 AM

Sorry to break it to you kid, but this is reality.

Sorry to break it to you, but MG knows what he's doing with his job much better than you do.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#972 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:14 AM

Sorry to break it to you, but MG knows what he's doing with his job much better than you do.


Tell me then, why are you a member of these boards? Its not to discuss hockey and the Canucks?

Oh I see, you like to make posts to discuss hockey too. Like the following one.

Posted ImageSteven Stamkos, on 01 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:


To Vancouver: Shawn Matthias + Alex Petrovic and/or Nick Bjugstad + 2013 1st

To Florida: Roberto Luongo + Mason Raymond

Luongo = Matthias & 1st
Raymond = Bjugstad/Petrovic


:sadno:

Is this where I say, sorry to break it to you but Tallon knows what he's doing with his job much better than you do?

Edited by WHL rocks, 04 August 2012 - 01:27 AM.

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#973 Pears

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:17 AM

Tell me then, why are you a member of these boards? Its not to discuss hockey and the Canucks?

Oh I see, you like to make posts to discuss hockey too. Like the following one.

Posted ImageSteven Stamkos, on 01 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:



To Vancouver: Shawn Matthias + Alex Petrovic and/or Nick Bjugstad + 2013 1st

To Florida: Roberto Luongo + Mason Raymond

Luongo = Matthias & 1st
Raymond = Bjugstad/Petrovic


:sadno:

This is the second time someone has brought one of my proposals into an argument just so that person can get out of it. That's pathetic.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#974 HiFiclub

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:18 AM

I was around to see Gretz/Messier and company in their glory days with the Oilers so I was definitely around to see Mess with the Canucks. You are confused and actually making my point for me. In this confused state you resort to saying things like "you weren't around, or you didn't watch hockey back then".

You say Mess was most dominant physically when he was younger. So what exactly is your argument? Perhaps I should remind you that I'm the one saying Doan is too old to sign to a 4 year $6 per year contract. You are the one who is arguing Doan will be physical when he's 39 years old. I gave you example of Mess being one of the most physical and meanest players of his generation who's age caught up to him like it has caught up to every living being to have ever lived.

If Messier, who is one of the most driven, meanest and accomplished players in the history of the NHL couldn't keep his physical play up when he got older what makes you think a player who has never accomplished anything significant in the NHL can?

You claim Messier didn't have the drive to win later on in his career. But Doan does. You fail to recognise it was Messier's age not his drive that was the problem when he was with the Canucks. What has Doan shown you to make you believe he is at all driven to win a Stanley Cup. He stayed in PHX because he likes the hot weather when he knew there is next to zero chance of winning. His number one choice is still to stay in PHX where he is unlikely to win a cup. He only wants to stay in PHX because he likes the city and the lifestyle it offers him. It has nothing to do with having drive to win a Cup.

To bring up Gordie Howe as an example to say Doan will be a physical player when he's 38 or 39 years old should make it very clear to you how desperate your arguement is.


Seriously I believe what Miller says usually and he is right all the time.

How do you fracking know Messier tried his best during his time in Vancouver????

I seriously dont think Messier give a damn when he was playing for Vancouver.

YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE UP SOME EXCUSE FOR HIM?? Was he really aging???? WHY THE FK did he sign with Rangers again after he left Canucks.

AGE WAS NOT THE MAIN FACTOR WHEN HE WAS IN VANCOUVER. HE WAS ALL ABOUT THE $$$ ONLY. I AM SURE HE IS PROBABLY GOING TO WIN THE MOST HATED GUY WHO EVER PLAYED FOR THE CANUCKS BEFORE. WHAT A MESS!
1997-98 Vancouver Canucks NHL 82 22 38 60 58 -10 -- -- -- -- -- 1998-99 Vancouver Canucks NHL 59 13 35 48 33 -12 -- -- -- -- -- 1999-00 Vancouver Canucks NHL 66 17 37 54 30 -15 -- -- -- -- -- 2000-01 New York Rangers NHL 82 24 43 67 89 -25 -- -- -- -- -- 2001-02 New York Rangers NHL 41 7 16 23 32 -1 -- -- -- -- -- 2002-03 New York Rangers NHL 78 18 22 40 30 -2 -- -- -- -- -- 2003-04 New York Rangers NHL 76 18 25 43 42 3 -- -- -- --
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#975 Everybody Hates Raymond

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:42 AM

This is the second time someone has brought one of my proposals into an argument just so that person can get out of it. That's pathetic.

Why don't you counter his argument instead of calling him pathetic
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#976 Pears

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:46 AM

Why don't you counter his argument instead of calling him pathetic

There really wasn't anything to argue back IMO.
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In my eyes drouin is overrated he can score in the qmjhl but did nothing in last two gold medal games that canada lost. Fox will be better pro than him talk to me in five yrs

Gaudreau has one NHL goal whereas all your "prized" prospects have none.

   ryan kesler is going to the chicago blackhawks ...       quote me on it


#977 Standing_Tall#37

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:48 AM

Why don't you counter his argument instead of calling him pathetic


Well played sir
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#978 WHL rocks

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 01:53 AM

Seriously I believe what Miller says usually and he is right all the time.

How do you fracking know Messier tried his best during his time in Vancouver????

I seriously dont think Messier give a damn when he was playing for Vancouver.

YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE UP SOME EXCUSE FOR HIM?? Was he really aging???? WHY THE FK did he sign with Rangers again after he left Canucks.

AGE WAS NOT THE MAIN FACTOR WHEN HE WAS IN VANCOUVER. HE WAS ALL ABOUT THE $$$ ONLY. I AM SURE HE IS PROBABLY GOING TO WIN THE MOST HATED GUY WHO EVER PLAYED FOR THE CANUCKS BEFORE. WHAT A MESS!
1997-98 Vancouver Canucks NHL 82 22 38 60 58 -10 -- -- -- -- -- 1998-99 Vancouver Canucks NHL 59 13 35 48 33 -12 -- -- -- -- -- 1999-00 Vancouver Canucks NHL 66 17 37 54 30 -15 -- -- -- -- -- 2000-01 New York Rangers NHL 82 24 43 67 89 -25 -- -- -- -- -- 2001-02 New York Rangers NHL 41 7 16 23 32 -1 -- -- -- -- -- 2002-03 New York Rangers NHL 78 18 22 40 30 -2 -- -- -- -- -- 2003-04 New York Rangers NHL 76 18 25 43 42 3 -- -- -- --
--


First, I understand you are a huge fan of Miller's but I am not currently in discussion with Miller re: Messier. I have never discussed Messier's time in Vancouver with Miller, ever. Miller may be right all the time but I have to give you some bad news. Miller can't be right this time. Sorry.

It's all good though, I think Miller is a pretty cool guy too. I'm sure he loves all his fans equally.

Second, Why are you yelling? Calm down and remember, "We are all Canucks".

Edited by WHL rocks, 04 August 2012 - 02:22 AM.

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#979 Jai604

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:21 AM

Messier came to Vancouver because management at the time threw stupid money at him. It was one of the worst decisions ever.

Messier by that time had no drive to win. he had nothing left to prove, and certainly not on a team like Vancouver, which he did not care about. If he actually cared about the team, the fans, and the city, instead of his own self interests and image, he would NOT have taken the C from Linden and INSISTED on taking Wayne Maki's unofficially retired #11.

Messier came here to chase the money, and that's it.

Doan is a completely different story because he HAS NOT WON A CUP YET. It's quite simple, really, and by watching him play last year you can see that Doaner still has the drive to win. He isn't just chasing the paycheque, or else he would have signed with the stupid East coast team that reportedly offered him $30m over 4 years. In addition, Doan won the Messier Leadership Award last year, so clearly he's still doing something right.

Messier vs. Doan is NOT a good argument because there are lots of differences between the two situations.
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RIP LB RR PD


#980 mclean_is_#1

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 02:38 AM

I wasn't going to put this much effort into a reply, but your "I'm not an idiot" comment inspired me.
"Explain how that doesn't affect a team's salary structure?" Challange accepted.
................

For some reason you dont take the NHL's inherent inflation into consideration when making your statements.
Over the last 8 years the salary cap has increases approx. 180% that's about 22.5% PER YEAR. Taking this into consideration, lets re visit your post.

"While he may only make 1 mill a season like a 30 point producer should" Please fellow CDC'er tell me you don't actually believe, that a 30 pt producer today will make the exact same as a 30 point producer in 15 years... This is where our conversation ends because your entire premise is flawed.

With the way the salary cap is structured, combined with the huge percentage its increases year-to-year; those 7.5 mil cap hits in 12 years aren't going to be as dramatic as they are now. Example - Look at the salary cap in the first year it was introduced; 39 million in 2005 - 2006. A long and at the time high contract like 5.25 million back then is common in the current NHL for players that aren't as skilled as the original player was when the contract was signed.

As time progresses and the salary cap rises, players with the long contracts take the risk of being under-payed compared to other players of their stature who are signing UFA contracts that current year.

Look at Martin St. Louis, in 2003-2004 he records the highest pts in the NHL at 94. Signs a new contract at the time with Tampa bay at 5.25 million 6 year contract. Then resigns in 2011 - 2012 for more @5.62mil for 5 years!

Why more?
Is he as productive as he was in 2003 - 2004? No
Is he older? yes
Is this contract at risk of staying on the books if he retires? (unlikely... but possible) yes... its now a 35+ contract

Do you think that if Tampa Bay could, they would go back and sign him to an 11 year, 5.25 million dollar contract?
That's Not 35+
That's Less money
That possesses no retirement risk

Now 5+ million dollar contracts are getting passed around like water.


In 12 years these 7.5 mil deals are going to be peanuts.

So at your rate, in 12 years, salaries will increase 750%? 12 years ago, the highest played players was Jagr (11.7), Kariya (11), Foresberg (9), Fleury (8.5) and Lindros (8.5). I'm sorry, but that's not the inflation you're talking about. Salary caps go up because of the revenue the NHL makes. There will be a ceiling at one point and it will no way keep going up at your rate. In no universe will a 7.5 cap hit on a 30 point prodcer be considered the norm.

St. Louis is NOT a 30 point plus player. He's been a consistent 80+ point player for the past 6 years. EXACTLY the type of player I originally said deserved a cap hit of 6 mill.

I didn't challenge you. It's not even a challenge. It's funny how the player you threw out there completely supported my statements.
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"...but there is going to be that seventh game, we'll hope they can patch Linden up and get him in that one. He will play, you know he'll play. He'll play on crutches. He will play! And he'll play at Madison Square Garden on Tuesday night! The game is over!!!"
- Jim Robson during the final minutes of Game 6 of the 1994 Stanley Cup Final.

Thanks for the memories Trev!!!

#981 Neufy161

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:33 AM

So at your rate, in 12 years, salaries will increase 750%? 12 years ago, the highest played players was Jagr (11.7), Kariya (11), Foresberg (9), Fleury (8.5) and Lindros (8.5). I'm sorry, but that's not the inflation you're talking about. Salary caps go up because of the revenue the NHL makes. There will be a ceiling at one point and it will no way keep going up at your rate. In no universe will a 7.5 cap hit on a 30 point prodcer be considered the norm.

St. Louis is NOT a 30 point plus player. He's been a consistent 80+ point player for the past 6 years. EXACTLY the type of player I originally said deserved a cap hit of 6 mill.

I didn't challenge you. It's not even a challenge. It's funny how the player you threw out there completely supported my statements.


First, in 8 years its gone up 180%... how does 750% in the following 12 make any sense...

Now you're just assuming, In 2005 did we really think that the cap would have gone to 70+ million this fast? You have no idea what kind of cap were looking at in the following years. History dictates... it rises, quickly; and right now history is all we have as a way of making any sort of educated guess what so ever.

Also, those examples you gave were PRE salary cap... so those dont make any relevant case to your argument what so ever. Salarys like those are the reason why there's a salary cap to begin with.

St. Louis was 29, he had just come off a season winning the Art Ross. You seriously believe that had someone like that, in those circumstances been a UFA this off season, he would have yielded 5.25 mil per year the exact same as David Krejci? If you think so, then we cant even have this discussion because you aren't using logic or any basic fundamentals of economics.

Edited by Neufy161, 04 August 2012 - 07:38 AM.

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Oh hello Alain Vigneault, I see what you did there... good one.

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#982 tas

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:46 AM

the salary cap is going to start going up much, much more slowly when the players' percentage of revenue goes down significantly in the new cba, and as the league's ability to find new revenue streams starts to reach a point of diminishing returns.

i'd expect we'll see a 20-25% salary rollback and a salary cap of $50-57 million when the new cba comes into effect, and it will rise much more slowly than it has over the last 8 years.
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#983 Mayray2112

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 08:37 AM

Mobile
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#984 djsandwiches

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:45 AM

My hunch is that we are gunna get a big announcement on BC Day. ;)
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Cheers!


#985 riffraff

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:49 AM

"Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan before he could .......",

Yeah I must have slept thru that ``attempt`` to get Brown.
Had Doan actually gotten Brown I might have remembered. What happened the rest of the game? Did Doan get him or did the ref keep getting in the middle?

If ifs and buts were candys and nuts wouldn`t it be a merry xmas!

When I said Doan had 4 fights in the past 3 seasons I meant 4 fights combined in the past 3 seasons not 4 fights per year in case I wasn't clear on that.

Shane Doan will not protect the Sedins from anyone. He's not a protector, enforcer, fighter, etc etc . Kevin Bieksa is much much better in that role than Shane Doan ever would be and look how much he deters the `rats`from annoying the Sedins.

Do I think MG and Gillman are dumb? Is this your argument for signing Doan? To justify overpaying and giving term to a soon to be 36 year old player you ask me if I think the mgmt is dumb for wanting to sign him? Do you agree with every thing mgmt does? I don't. I agree with most of the things they do but not everything. I'm sure you feal the same way. This is not a legit argument to make on your part. I expect much better from you Miller.

I agree with you that it`s unlikely MG offers Doan more than the $6.1 mill the Sedins make but we don`t know that. I only go by the rumours we've all heard that it would take 4 years and close to $7 mill per year. This is why I write $6 to $7 mill.

Don`t get me wrong, I would like to have Doan on this team too. But not for 4 years and not for $6+ million per year. UFA`s allways get overpaid. It happens year after year and this situation is no different. Doan will be an effective player for max 2 more years. By the end of that he'll be almost 38 years old. Too old, too much money, not good IMO.


if you are asking this, you didnt watch the game

Edited by riffraff, 04 August 2012 - 09:49 AM.

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CanucksSayEh, on 12 March 2013 - 10:12 PM, said:
When the playoffs come around, nobody is scared of getting in a fight, but every night, they get their mom to check under the bed for Raffi Torres.

#986 Millerdraft

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 09:50 AM

"Lucky for Brown the linesman got a hold of Doan before he could .......",

Yeah I must have slept thru that ``attempt`` to get Brown.
Had Doan actually gotten Brown I might have remembered. What happened the rest of the game? Did Doan get him or did the ref keep getting in the middle?

If ifs and buts were candys and nuts wouldn`t it be a merry xmas!

The difference between that incident in the CF vs our incident in round 1 is that the play was blown dead in the Phoenix/LA game whereas in ours play continued on for several seconds. Lest it be unknown, here is Doan filling in Brown before:



Now, your point about getting at Brown in the WCF after the Roszival incident:

Seconds before Penner’s goal, Brown nailed Michal Rozsival with an open-ice hit near the Los Angeles blue line an instant after an offside call; the hit knocked the veteran Phoenix defenseman from the game and incensed the Coyotes players when no penalty was called.

Penner's goal was an OT series GWG. Doan had exactly 12 seconds of clock time to climb into LA's bench and pummel the resting Kings' captain.

When I said Doan had 4 fights in the past 3 seasons I meant 4 fights combined in the past 3 seasons not 4 fights per year in case I wasn't clear on that.

Shane Doan will not protect the Sedins from anyone. He's not a protector, enforcer, fighter, etc etc . Kevin Bieksa is much much better in that role than Shane Doan ever would be and look how much he deters the `rats`from annoying the Sedins.

Yeah, 4 fights in 3 seasons as a result of brutal cheapshots. He doesn't just drop the gloves for no reason. If you go to his fight cards on hockeyfights.com you'll see descriptions of what led up to his fights for the past 16 seasons and the vast majority were as a result of retaliation for a questionable hit or for answering the bell after his own questionable hit. That's when he drops the gloves, not just randomly thinking: "I guess I gotta fire up the boys tonight."

He had 20 fights from '95-'00 and he managed to balance that with solid stats so that's the guy Kassian needs to show him the ropes. As for Bieksa detering the Sedins' cheapshot artists, unfortunately for us, Bieksa happens to be a key PKer and shutdown pairing defenceman for this team. So if he takes the instigator that leaves 5 defenceman killing a penalty (only 3 of whom are very good at it).

Do I think MG and Gillman are dumb? Is this your argument for signing Doan? To justify overpaying and giving term to a soon to be 36 year old player you ask me if I think the mgmt is dumb for wanting to sign him? Do you agree with every thing mgmt does? I don't. I agree with most of the things they do but not everything. I'm sure you feal the same way. This is not a legit argument to make on your part. I expect much better from you Miller.

I agree with you that it`s unlikely MG offers Doan more than the $6.1 mill the Sedins make but we don`t know that. I only go by the rumours we've all heard that it would take 4 years and close to $7 mill per year. This is why I write $6 to $7 mill.

No, it's why I asked you why exactly are Gillis & Gillman trying their damndest to sign Doan.

Could it be that he's basically Samuelsson, Torres, and Morrow wrapped up in one player? Could it be because he's literally the best example of off-ice work ethic and demeanor that we could possibly expose Kassian/Mallet/etc to? Could he possibly have a word or two of wisdom regarding failing to live up to expectations at a young age in the NHL and how to overcome that hurdle? Is he not a perfect fit for our roster right now?

Just answer the question: Why do you think Gillis & Gillman are pursuing him so hard?

Don`t get me wrong, I would like to have Doan on this team too. But not for 4 years and not for $6+ million per year. UFA`s allways get overpaid. It happens year after year and this situation is no different. Doan will be an effective player for max 2 more years. By the end of that he'll be almost 38 years old. Too old, too much money, not good IMO.


Okay, so you agree that you'd love to have him on this team for two years @ a maximum cap hit of $6m/year or am I misunderstanding you? Let's just see what he ends up signing for and how it all plays out. I do understand the concern over the four year term. I don't think he'll be nearly the same player in year #4 as he is today but I'm just as uncomfortable throwing Kassian to the wolves when you take into consideration exactly how much pressure he has to overcome after Gillis traded the "Golden Boy" for him.

Edited by Millerdraft, 04 August 2012 - 01:35 PM.

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Kassian.... Taylor Pyatt 3.0

Lies. He's more of a Steve Bernier. Hopefully his talent level goes up so he can become like a Taylor Pyatt.


#987 Losing With Pride

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:16 AM

Bottom Line... whether it is Doan or not,

we need to add a top 6 scorer and a top 4 dman.

That and trade Luongo.
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#988 rotiman187

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:22 AM

Bottom Line... whether it is Doan or not,

we need to add a top 6 scorer and a top 4 dman.

That and trade Luongo.


Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison

Is a good top 4. Canucks need a top 6 winger and 3rd line centre.
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#989 oldnews

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:24 AM

I was around to see Gretz/Messier and company in their glory days with the Oilers so I was definitely around to see Mess with the Canucks. You are confused and actually making my point for me. In this confused state you resort to saying things like "you weren't around, or you didn't watch hockey back then".

You say Mess was most dominant physically when he was younger. So what exactly is your argument? Perhaps I should remind you that I'm the one saying Doan is too old to sign to a 4 year $6 per year contract. You are the one who is arguing Doan will be physical when he's 39 years old. I gave you example of Mess being one of the most physical and meanest players of his generation who's age caught up to him like it has caught up to every living being to have ever lived.

If Messier, who is one of the most driven, meanest and accomplished players in the history of the NHL couldn't keep his physical play up when he got older what makes you think a player who has never accomplished anything significant in the NHL can?

You claim Messier didn't have the drive to win later on in his career. But Doan does. You fail to recognise it was Messier's age not his drive that was the problem when he was with the Canucks. What has Doan shown you to make you believe he is at all driven to win a Stanley Cup. He stayed in PHX because he likes the hot weather when he knew there is next to zero chance of winning. His number one choice is still to stay in PHX where he is unlikely to win a cup. He only wants to stay in PHX because he likes the city and the lifestyle it offers him. It has nothing to do with having drive to win a Cup.

To bring up Gordie Howe as an example to say Doan will be a physical player when he's 38 or 39 years old should make it very clear to you how desperate your arguement is.


ok WHL this is starting to deteriorate.
You asked for an example of a guy who could still play physical hockey late into his 30s so I gave you the most obvious one, to which you respond that it's a desperate argument.
Messier's game changed fundamentally around the age of 32/33 - he could still score, but he no longer was the intimidating force he was - you can argue it was age only - I disagree - I think there were more factors involved.. He's one player - I gave you the opposite example that you asked for. There are lots of other guys who have performed well in their late 30s and Doan has shown plenty of signs that he is one of them.

You can speak for Doan all you want, and claim that he doesn't want to win because he stayed in Phoenix for the hot weather and lifestyle - that's just an assumption on your part - imo that preference to stay in Phoenix would more likely come down to loyalty, believing in his team (which just went to the WCF) and not wanting to uproot his family.

Finally - the idea that he is fixed on a 4 year deal at an insane cap hit was an unsubstantiated rumour refuted by his agent. I have never advocated signing Doan to an "albatross" contract - that would be some other straw man.

Edited by oldnews, 04 August 2012 - 11:04 AM.

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#990 sirwilliam

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 10:42 AM

Wow... you guys sure are spending a lot of time and energy arguing over nit-picky stuff.

It's a sunny day outside...
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